BEACH

[ibook8008]

Can people ride the segway on a beach? I never heard of anyone metioning the beach and the segway in the same sentence.
Like can anyone ride on the sand [u]OF</u> the beach?

[woodenapple]

There have been a few discussions here about gliding on the beach - even a few pictures. Seems like I remember a picture of someone who wrote "segway" in the sand on the beach using their segway way back in the early days, but I can't remember who.

I am sure you will get lots of responses soon from people who have ridden on the beach. I bet the new Segway XT will be able to go crazy on the beach!

Rodney

May all your days be Segway days!

[cmonkey]

It can be done, with difficulty.
With the stock tires it's pretty unstable, but if you take most of the air out of your tires you can get better traction. You still have to be very carefull. It all depends on the moisture content and how well packed the sand is. The enhanced traction tires may fare a bit better, but you'd probably still have to lower the air pressure.

I tried riding with 10psi in the sand on stock tires. Did ok, but got stuck in deeper dry sand. I try to stay on areas that have been penetrated by vegetation. I'm sure gliding near the shore where the sand is wetter and more compact would be easier, but you'll want to rinse off with fresh water so the screws holing your battery don't get rusty.

you'll just have to experiment and carry and air pump.

Dave

I love my magic carpet!

[Hauptagon]

The beach is fun to ride on, but more for the challenge than the experience. I think Dave about nailed it though. Also, it absolutely kills the battery (the old NiMH version).

I'd love to try an XT on the beach... if an old i167 can manage, I'd bet the XT is amazing on that kind of terrain.

-Justin

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams." -From Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory

[macgeek]

http://www.bandster.us/SEGWAY/segx.jpg

and then there are the crazy ones...

Jonathan


http://bandster.us/SEGWAY/human-ona-stick1.jpg
Glider "on Board"
Proud Segway NY member
www.segwaynyny.com

[cosmo]

Woodenapple-
Thanks for the reminder!

It was a good stroll down memory lane...

Here is the post for anyone interested:
http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1825

-cosmo-

[ElectraGlide]

Every once in awhile a new topic pops up like " Noisy Gear Box " or " Beep Beep no Start" or " Segway Base Malfunction " etc etc, and it makes me wonder if those are the same people that have been riding in sand ( GRRRRRRRRIND ) or Salt Water ( RUST ).
Sand has NEVER been good for bearings or moving parts.....and Salt Water is the worst enemy of electronics and metal electrical contacts.
My advice is stay away from the sand and beach unless you could care less about the cost and operation of your machine...it's only a matter of time before the elements take over !

Steve

[Mr. Protocol]

Absolutely true. Riding a Seg in the surf is a torture test. And those of us who live near the beach are used to the corrosion that shows up on our computer motherboards over the years...

HOWEVER...Those of you who remember Cosmo's pictures of gliding along Ocean Front Walk and Palisades Park will recognize that that's exactly how I plan to spend many, many hours with my new i180! I don't live eight blocks from Venice beach for no reason. Sometimes corrosion is just worth it.

[ElectraGlide]

Riding on the sidewalk would probably not cause problems, and the salt in the air is minor and not something we can do much about.....it's the riding thru deep sand or the water that would cause concern. I ride exclusively in the south Florida hot and humid environment, and I ride near the beach often, I just stay out of the sand and water. Why tempt fate.................LOL
BTW...I really enjoy taking bike rides from Venice to Santa Monica and back when I stay at Marina Del Rey. CA is a great place to visit !

Steve

[ZoliHonig]

I found that keeping on the far end (away from the water) the sand is pretty packed down from all the tractors and watevr, but its really not a problem, you just gotta watch aggresive stopping and turning.



---
[8]-Zoli[8]

[Segway of St. Louis]

Hey macgeek, I don't know that I have noticed that "glider on board" sign before. Is that something you did? Can I use that?



Jeff Bach
Segway of St. Louis
636-754-4000

[macgeek]

Actually i lifted it from "segwaypolo.com"
Modified it, slightly. Ask there permission if your going to use it for commercial reasons. as far as the slogan, you have my permission to use it!

Jonathan

http://bandster.us/SEGWAY/human-ona-stick1.jpg
Glider "on Board"
Proud Segway NY member
www.segwaynyny.com

[adobephile]

I use power assist mode to get across the soft stuff. Once near the water the sand is hard-packed and easy to glide on. Its coefficient of friction is somewhat higher than concrete or asphalt, though, so know your charge indicator and turn back at the ACTUAL half-way point if you don't want to push the thing in the hot sun.



"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[Sal]

MacGeek, have you thought about using your signature image as the "Public" folder icon in your OSX Finder Sidebar?

That's the first thing I though of when I saw it! Wonderful! Iconfactory, or YOU, should come up with some wonderfully glossy, shiny OS X icon sets with a Segway theme.

-Sal

Think Different
www.apple.com

[Segway of St. Louis]

Haven't really figured out how I want to use it, I just like it:-)

I will talk to them.

Thanks for the guidance!


Jeff Bach
Segway of St. Louis
636-754-4000

[macgeek]

I actually designed a LOGO as my avitar here when I FIRST JOINED.
I have asked managment many times, to add it.
but It was never done...

Jonathan

P:S: My segway (which went thru the Hawaii Waters) never had ANY problem after my little ride, I cleaned the unit thouroughly after riding and coated all the metal with some Lithium grease.

So all the grind, wirrrrr, pop, zip bitching is for nothing.
if you take CARE of your seg



http://bandster.us/SEGWAY/human-ona-stick1.jpg
Glider "on Board"
Proud Segway NY member
www.segwaynyny.com

[Brian]

I rode my Segway into the ocean water at the Segway Orange County party last Saturday.

Brian

[ronzul]

quote:Every once in awhile a new topic pops up like " Noisy Gear Box " or " Beep Beep no Start" or " Segway Base Malfunction " etc etc, and it makes me wonder if those are the same people that have been riding in sand ( GRRRRRRRRIND ) or Salt Water ( RUST ).
No comment about the "noisy gearbox" or the "Segway base malfunction", but I regularly experience the "beep no start" and had never taken it to the beach.

The "beep no start" problem is acknowledged as a control shaft firmware issue (well, at least when I spoke to Segway LLC about this, they were recommending a change of control shaft).

---
Who said that you shouldn't get carried away on your Segway?

[SegwayBill]

The Beach is the worst place to take your Segway, glide it in salt water is like throwing it away!

Bill

[SegwayBill]

The Beach is the worst place to take your Segway, gliding it in salt water is like throwing it away!

Bill

[adobephile]

quote:Originally posted by SegwayBill

The Beach is the worst place to take your Segway, glide it in salt water is like throwing it away!

Bill


No it isn't. It all depends upon how much you enjoy gliding on the beach as to whether it's worth it or not. It also makes a big difference how wet you get it (or not) while you're there.

We've got about 7-8 miles of beach here which is a hefty walk on a 90+ degree day and against a 3-hour time limit on parking. The Segway lets me cover a lot more of it in a uniquely fun way, and I don't dunk it in the surf. Now that's worth it to me.



"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[GarySailor]

I have had two Seg.s starting way back when. I have taken
both on ocean beaches, both Oregon and Washington. Power
asst. thru the soft sand, get down to the wet sand and
really do enjoy it. Afterwards, wash down witha hose and
I have had no problems with either of mine. I plan on doing
the same this summer when I finally get a set of the new
batteries. Not sure I can recommend it, after reading some
of the posts, but I'll be going for it. I have posted on
here quite a while ago, the sand is very forgiving, so try
out your new moves, crash and burn in the soft sand, not bad

[SegwayBill]

http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10550

Just because you like doing something doesn't make good for your machine.

Bill

[adobephile]

quote:Originally posted by SegwayBill

http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10550

Just because you like doing something doesn't make good for your machine.

Bill


Just because it's "bad" for my machine doesn't mean I shouldn't do it. It's all relative. Remember we're dealing with opinions.

"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[ElectraGlide]

quote:Originally posted by adobephile

[quote]Originally posted by SegwayBill

http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10550


Just because it's "bad" for my machine doesn't mean I shouldn't do it. It's all relative. Remember we're dealing with opinions.
Daniel Swanson


It's not an opinion that sand is bad for mechanical parts like bearings and gears, or salt water is bad for electrical components...thats fact. All it takes is a breach of a seal and then you are "up the creek without a Segway"
Yes you can ride your Segway in the salt water at the beach...I would never be one to deprive you of your right to have fun at all costs....what I am trying to prevent you from doing is causing possible damage to your Segway. You may suffer affects from the water and sand that will not show up immediately....quite possibly show up after warranty has expired ( if those types of uses are even covered under warranty ).
Would you try driving thru a campfire?...afterall it MIGHT NOT catch on fire...how about driving over broken glass, the tires MIGHT NOT get punctured....but wouldn't it be fun to try those things ?? NOPE !
Better to walk on the sand and water...Seg on the sidewalk.

Steve

[adobephile]

Look. The OPINION part or this is your own judgment as to whether the specific conditions pose a significant threat to your machine or not. Weather conditions, temperature, sea conditions, wetness of sand, hardness of sand, wind speed, humidity, duration of exposure, frequency of exposure, etc., etc.

It's also a matter of OPINION how much risk you're willing to take in such admittedly hazardous conditions. If you value beach mobility over repair costs then more frequent repairs aren't a problem. But then again, if you simply include beach gliding as a normal use for your Segway you may never know (or care) what the difference is.

I know that my beach glides haven't resulted in any noticeable damage to my Segway, so I can say with confidence that I don't care what you think about the subject.

"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[Sal]

Well, the answer to the original poster is this:

You can do whatever you want with your Segway, ride it on the beach, on the sand, in the water, down stairs, sky-dive with it and land in balance mode...

Are some of the above bad for your machine: YES.

That is a fact. Not opinion. The experienced long time members of this site know what they're talking about when giving advice to newcomers. Sand and salt water are BAD for the Segway, no ifs ands of buts about it. Just because one user doesn't experience the ill effects of those conditions, and diminishes the monetary ramifications if something does go wrong, doesn't mean the initial advice to steer clear of sand and salt water is wrong.

-Sal

Think Different
www.apple.com

[adobephile]

I wonder if the original poster is still following this thread.

I don't know why exactly, but some here insist on painting with solid black. SEA WATER + SEGWAY = BAD, BAD, BAD.

It's simply not true. And it's not just me, even though "just me" is good enough for me. It's simply a matter of degree. I'd agree that dunking a Segway into sea water is pretty bad. But gliding on hard-packed sand 20' from the surf probably isn't going to damage anything important. Maybe some screw head will get rusty.

One bonus you get from being "brave" is the fun of beach gliding. So which would you rather have? A somewhat less corroded Segway and no beach gliding fun, or a slightly corroded Segway and tons of fun in the sun?

Pretty simple choice for me. I'm happy for that and the fact that I'm not stuck into various fixed ideas.




"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[Stewbonz]

Of all the Segway owners I know, Daniel is the only one I would actually encourage to ride on the beach as often as possible.

JEFF JARVIS
http://www.thailandsegwaytours.com/

[Florida Ever-Glides]

Daniel dosen't ride his HT in saltwater, he rides it in Clearwater...

Tom Jacobson
http://www.floridaever-glides.com

[SegwayUtah]

I imagine that at least a few of us will take "risks" with their machines. Some will do it frequently; some will do it just once.

I ran through a whole bunch of deep (non-salt) water once with my HT. It got really grumpy for a few days. Although it seemed to have survived well (after a good drip-dry in the sun), I haven't done that again. But I'm glad the HT could deal with it.

Riding on the beach sounds fun. It might not be a good idea. I guess it is a personal decision in the end--it's great to have knowledgable people here about so many issues.

Chris

[KSagal]

I find this thread fun.

Long before I bought a seg, I spent 12 years as a skydive instructor.

Long before that, while in the service of this great country, (Army) I was injured, and hence, I taught skydiving as a disabled Veteran.

So now you know where I come from when I talk about risk...

Am I afraid of riding the seg on or near the beach? Of course not.

The most likely place to have the least damage to your seg is in a climate controlled room, sealed with a hepa filter on the air handling.

For the least likely place to have fun, see the preceding paragraph.

I am notorious for playing hard, and also for taking good care of my toys. They are not mutually exclusive.

Play hard, where ever you choose to do it, and then figure a maintenance program to match your use.

Remember the photos I posted while riding my seg in a blizzard, with studded tires, towing my kids on sleds? I do. They do. We had a blast.

I then went in and cleaned up the machine. I think it was as bad as a ride on the beach, but afterward, it was fine.

By the way, water and electronics do not match, salt water, puddles, rain, etc. all are bad, so do not let the electronics get wet.

Sand, if ground into moving parts causes wear. SO clean it out! What's the problem?

For those who say that sand gets into the gears, have a seal that is bad enough to have debris getting in, and if the transmissions are like any others I have ever heard of, they have some sort of lubricant in them, so that has leaked out, and caused more problem than the sand comming in has...

To anyone that knows the transmissions better than I, don't the seals have at least as much need to keep the oils in, as the debris out?

My simple advice is this, play as hard as you want and be willing and able to pay the freight...


Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[adobephile]

quote:Originally posted by KSagal

I find this thread fun.

Long before I bought a seg, I spent 12 years as a skydive instructor.

Long before that, while in the service of this great country, (Army) I was injured, and hence, I taught skydiving as a disabled Veteran.

So now you know where I come from when I talk about risk...

Am I afraid of riding the seg on or near the beach? Of course not.

The most likely place to have the least damage to your seg is in a climate controlled room, sealed with a hepa filter on the air handling.

For the least likely place to have fun, see the preceding paragraph.

I am notorious for playing hard, and also for taking good care of my toys. They are not mutually exclusive.

Play hard, where ever you choose to do it, and then figure a maintenance program to match your use.

Remember the photos I posted while riding my seg in a blizzard, with studded tires, towing my kids on sleds? I do. They do. We had a blast.

I then went in and cleaned up the machine. I think it was as bad as a ride on the beach, but afterward, it was fine.

By the way, water and electronics do not match, salt water, puddles, rain, etc. all are bad, so do not let the electronics get wet.

Sand, if ground into moving parts causes wear. SO clean it out! What's the problem?

For those who say that sand gets into the gears, have a seal that is bad enough to have debris getting in, and if the transmissions are like any others I have ever heard of, they have some sort of lubricant in them, so that has leaked out, and caused more problem than the sand comming in has...

To anyone that knows the transmissions better than I, don't the seals have at least as much need to keep the oils in, as the debris out?

My simple advice is this, play as hard as you want and be willing and able to pay the freight...


Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.


Yet again, we are in accord.



"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[Florida Ever-Glides]

Play hard = Pay hard. It's not rocket science...

Tom Jacobson
http://www.floridaever-glides.com

[ibook8008]

Thanks everyone for responding, I had no idea this many people would respond. Thanks!!!

[indycop]

adobephile...Not attacking you, but I don't understand your logic. So you say that salt water and sand being bad for the Seg (be it or not...I don't know the answer) is an opinion??? and yet your feelings or others feelings on something being an accomplishment is fact? Hmmmmm...I don't get it man.

[adobephile]

quote:Originally posted by indycop

adobephile...Not attacking you, but I don't understand your logic. So you say that salt water and sand being bad for the Seg (be it or not...I don't know the answer) is an opinion??? and yet your feelings or others feelings on something being an accomplishment is fact? Hmmmmm...I don't get it man.


OK. As long as you asked nice. . .and. . .how many times? (guess you pushed your "post" button a few times), I'll say it again:

I don't contest the FACT that too much water is bad for the Segway. Too much salt water is definitely bad for the Segway HT. By "too much" I mean situations such as: water inside the machine, in its electronics and/or its gearbox or inside bearings where water was never meant to be. This is bad. Definitely bad. That's pretty much fact and not opinion.

But even though we've seen Jonathan in Hawaii gliding and splashing through salt water on the beach, even I think that was fool-hardy, and even I haven't gotten my HT wet to that degree.

What I've done with no apparent bad effects is to glide along the beach over hard-packed, somewhat damp, sand. There was little resistance to the wheels rolling along normally. I wasn't trying to plow through soft sand, giving the level sensors a hard time.

Since we know the HT needs no lubrication or special care beyond being kept charged and reasonably clean, this says to me that its moving and/or vital parts are pretty well sealed against the outside world. At the same time this doesn't mean that it's submersible. I've splashed through rain water puddles which briefly washed over the base. But I would avoid gliding through any deep enough so that the water level would be higher than the HT base.

This is where my judgment comes in, which is my *opinion*. This is where I determine how good or bad it is to have my HT at the beach on one particular visit. In my mind I weigh the various conditions extant at the time. Is it a bright sunny day with little wind to blow sand up on the machine? Is the sea fairly calm so that I won't get suddenly swamped by a big wave? Is the sand pretty hard so that I'm not plowing through it putting a strain on its stabilization system or kicking up sand?

If these various factors seem favorable, and since the HT seems to be pretty well sealed against normal atmospheric elements, then any even salt-bearing moisture in the air by the beach shouldn't pose too much of a threat to its workings.

This is my thinking which forms my various opinions about how good or bad it would be to take my HT to the beach on a given day with the various conditions extant at the time.

Now I don't know how you got "accomplishments" in here. That was from the other thread. I wasn't talking about feelings about accomplishments, either. All I said was that an accomplishment was a fact. An accomplishment is something done or achieved. You can see it. That makes it a fact, not an opinion.

It was in reference to how worthwhile tinkering was, as such. Tinkering, per the dictionary, is in-expertly attempting to repair something, fiddling. Some tried to argue that various inventors tinkered. And I rather doubt that that's true. I'd call these actions "experimenting" which has a wholly different purpose, and which is carried out with professional discipline, a certain methodology, and a determined drive towards a known goal or purpose.

So does that clear it up for you?





"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[indycop]

Not at all...and sorry for the multiple posts :) Guess I'm having a few browser problems here at work.

The reason I brought up 'accomplishments' is because that was another post that you decided to enter and start giving your opinions in a very rude way. Others apparently agree. That's obvious.

Quote: "I know that my beach glides haven't resulted in any noticeable damage to my Segway, so I can say with confidence that I don't care what you think about the subject."

NOTICEABLE is the key word...although I would assume that is true.

Quote: "Look. The OPINION part or this is your own judgment as to whether the specific conditions pose a significant threat to your machine or not."

Yes...but your opinion doesn't change the facts of what IS happening.

and...

Quote: "All I said was that an accomplishment was a fact. An accomplishment is something done or achieved. You can see it. That makes it a fact, not an opinion."

Gravity=Fact
Newton discovers gravity=Fact
Whether or not you consider this an accomplishment=Opinion

I personally consider it an accomplishment...due to the fact that the Seg would probably not exist if it were not for the discovery of gravity. :)

Quote: "It was in reference to how worthwhile tinkering was, as such. Tinkering, per the dictionary, is in-expertly attempting to repair something, fiddling. Some tried to argue that various inventors tinkered. And I rather doubt that that's true. I'd call these actions "experimenting" which has a wholly different purpose, and which is carried out with professional discipline, a certain methodology, and a determined drive towards a known goal or purpose."

You were the one that gave the title 'Tinker' to the action. This is an opinion as well. I would also like to ask you to reconsider the idea that inventors don't 'tinker'. I've seen it done. Maybe you should have called it 'experimenting' to begin with. Back to Newton...according to you, an experiment has a known goal or purpose. In this case...Newton was not experimenting...his discovery was accidental. I would think that you could easily accidentally discover something worthwhile while tinkering (not experimenting...tinkering) and thus it seems worthwhile to me...apparently you disagree.

Seems to me like you're 'tinkering' with the idea of salt water and sand being bad for the Seg...yet aren't willing to 'experiment.'

[adobephile]

quote:Originally posted by indycop

Not at all...and sorry for the multiple posts :) Guess I'm having a few browser problems here at work.

The reason I brought up 'accomplishments' is because that was another post that you decided to enter and start giving your opinions in a very rude way. Others apparently agree. That's obvious.

Quote: "I know that my beach glides haven't resulted in any noticeable damage to my Segway, so I can say with confidence that I don't care what you think about the subject."

NOTICEABLE is the key word...although I would assume that is true.

Quote: "Look. The OPINION part or this is your own judgment as to whether the specific conditions pose a significant threat to your machine or not."

Yes...but your opinion doesn't change the facts of what IS happening.

and...

Quote: "All I said was that an accomplishment was a fact. An accomplishment is something done or achieved. You can see it. That makes it a fact, not an opinion."

Gravity=Fact
Newton discovers gravity=Fact
Whether or not you consider this an accomplishment=Opinion

I personally consider it an accomplishment...due to the fact that the Seg would probably not exist if it were not for the discovery of gravity. :)

Quote: "It was in reference to how worthwhile tinkering was, as such. Tinkering, per the dictionary, is in-expertly attempting to repair something, fiddling. Some tried to argue that various inventors tinkered. And I rather doubt that that's true. I'd call these actions "experimenting" which has a wholly different purpose, and which is carried out with professional discipline, a certain methodology, and a determined drive towards a known goal or purpose."

You were the one that gave the title 'Tinker' to the action. This is an opinion as well. I would also like to ask you to reconsider the idea that inventors don't 'tinker'. I've seen it done. Maybe you should have called it 'experimenting' to begin with. Back to Newton...according to you, an experiment has a known goal or purpose. In this case...Newton was not experimenting...his discovery was accidental. I would think that you could easily accidentally discover something worthwhile while tinkering (not experimenting...tinkering) and thus it seems worthwhile to me...apparently you disagree.

Seems to me like you're 'tinkering' with the idea of salt water and sand being bad for the Seg...yet aren't willing to 'experiment.'



Whoa. Whoa. Enough! I did my best in my last post to keep it clear and simple, and you're still spreading this into never-never-land. So I'm done. Hope you can find someone else to blather with.



"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[hhaurgon]

I'll try to get back to the topic with some FACTS.

As my x-treme buddy Karl said, the gearbox is sealed for 2 reasons: to keep the environment out and the oil in. The seal on the output shaft of the gearbox is extremely effective at keeping oil in, and very effective at keeping water/dirt out. However, prolonged exposure to water and grit will eventually lead to some getting into the gearbox since no seal is perfect. The good news is that this would be minimal for all but the most abusive use, and the gearbox is fairly tolerant of contamination on the inside. I know that Axicon did a great deal of seal development and testing, as well as durability testing with contaminates (Itsi probaly has some of the the boxes). Of course, I don't know about the newer gearboxes since Segway took over production of them.

The rest of the Segway should be fairly well sealed against water intrusion since there are no external moving parts. That being said, I still don't think I would spend a lot of time on the beach with my Segway due to the increased risks of corrosion (from the salt water) and accelerated wear. Sand is an abrasive and can do some damage to precision components as well as damage paint and other finishes. Also, I don't think any of the fasteners in the Segway are stainless steel (neither are any of the shafts in the gearbox) so they will rust quickly when exposed to salt water. I would be particularly concerned about the battery screws.

If you do ride in these types of conditions, I agree that if you should clean your machine ASAP, you are probably OK. But, if you are lucky enough to not have to pay for a machine, or you don't care, then go for it.

Hugh