Sore Subject!

[Florida Ever-Glides]

Do you think the LLC is working on a shock absorbing system to eliminate the sore feet that is common for those who spend substantial time on a Segway or for the sore feet that is also common to new riders. If the new battery range will allow for over 10 mile rides the foot issue will be very important to address.

The HT must overcome this 'riding comfort' problem before it can be utilized by the masses. We take dozens of people out every day and the 'sore feet' problem is real...



Tom Jacobson
http://www.floridaever-glides.com

[hhaurgon]

I can totally sympathize with you on this. I believe, however, that adding some sort of suspension would require a substantial investment in new castings for the base and probably a new gearbox design. As they already have so much invested in the current design, I think this may be a long way off. Also, this is probably the main reason that a new design for the Centaur rear platform was not shown, since it would really make sense on that machine.

If they do ever add suspension, it would be nice to add some negative camber to the wheels to provide increased lateral stability and better high speed turning.

Hugh

[Brian]

I don't like the sore feet issue either. I have to stop 2-3 times on my 5.5 mile commute to allow my feet to relax.

Brian

[dgbint]

I find that a good set of gel insoles in my shoes works quite well.
The really good ones, with hi impact absorption, only cost about $20, maybe less.

Michael

[ElectraGlide]

My lower back gets sore long before my feet give me any problem. I always wear comfortable shoes while I'm gliding any considerable distance, but there's not much to do about the back other than avoiding large bumps whenever possible.

Steve

[driley]

I think that they will eventually have suspension. It is a natural evolution.

Devin

[KSagal]

I use a fatigue mat that is a common solution in commercial settings. It makes a world of difference for me.

Maybe some of the many that have tried my machine could comment in the form of a comparison. I cannot compare, as I use it all the time, and cannot remember what it was like without...


Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[terryp]

Wayne's mat helps, and also keeps the HT's mat clean. Also - try a pair of Z-Coil shoes. They're very comfortable, and do help to absorb the shock when you're gliding on bumpy terrain. Mine get at almost as much interest as the Segway.

Segway - What's holding you up?

[SegwayUtah]

I ride pretty hard, but my feet hardly ever get sore. Maybe I have good shoes.

I wonder if the new Michelin Tweels for the Segway HT would put a lot more "cushion" in the ride. Seeing the video of them on the Centaur, it looked like a jot of the "jar" was taken out of the ride.

Also, lower tire pressure does mean a softer ride. The p-series at 22psi is very jostling; 20psi is much softer, but technically out of spec. The i-series at about 15psi is great.

Chris

[adobephile]

I don't think LLC should coddle to its customers on this subject at the expense of machine simplicity and/or efficiency.

In my experience, a good pair of shoes and/or inserts solve at least most of the problem. I wear a pair of Teva-brand plastic, velcro-strapped open sandals which have somewhat foamy, cushy soles.

Another point to consider is muscle tenseness. One person mentioned he as to let his feet relax, and another mentioned lower back pain. I remember a couple art classes I had in my youth in which the instructor came around occasionally to check peoples' grip by trying to pluck your brush/pencil out of your hand while you were working. If he/she couldn't, then you were told that you were holding it too tight.

I applied this concept to my automobile driving by noticing that I had tensed my lower back muscles, and once I deliberately relaxed them, then my pain and/or stiffness went away, and I could drive long distances in comfort.

One thing I recommend to any new person I give a demo to is to RELAX!! The more and the more COMPLETELY you relax on the Segway, the more pleasurable and comfortable you'll be.



"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[ZoliHonig]

I think no matter what, standing in one place for a long time, shocks or not, you're going to get tire.

Shocks may help a litle, but you are still standing in place for an extended period of time...


---
[8]-Zoli[8]

[Florida Ever-Glides]

I use 2 cushion mats plus z-coil shoes but the standing-in-place soreness still continues. I realize that I use my HT more than most but with the longer range batteries this nusuiance will persist for lots of people. How many people would use their car as primary transportation if it made them sore?

Tom Jacobson
http://www.floridaever-glides.com

[adobephile]

quote:Originally posted by Florida Ever-Glides

I use 2 cushion mats plus z-coil shoes but the standing-in-place soreness still continues. I realize that I use my HT more than most but with the longer range batteries this nusuiance will persist for lots of people. How many people would use their car as primary transportation if it made them sore?

Tom Jacobson
http://www.floridaever-glides.com


You've just at least partially answered your own question (or problem). You started this thread with the hypothesis that lack of proper cushioning was the cause of your soreness. Now you say that you use two types of supplementary cushioning, and you still have the soreness. Doesn't that rather suggest that the real cause of your problem is somewhere else? Try massage, chiropractic, change of nutrition, etc.



"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[mzokc]

I find the problem is not moving ones feet while gliding and rough surfaces. The jarring to knees can be jolting, bending the knees helps. ZcoiL shoes are fantastic when walking, but the pressure is on the ball of the foot when gliding, and the ZcoiL spring is designed for all the weight to be put on the heel during a step. There is close to an inch of cushion on the front of the ZcoiL shoe, but it's not the same as the heel spring.

Even if LLC adds additional suspension, you are still standing in place during the glide. When necessary, I find it best to step off while waiting for a traffic light to increase circulation to the feet.

Mark

[Florida Ever-Glides]

This happens with 8 out of 10 riders we have on tour. We use mats on all of our units. The problem stems from standing in place and riding vibrations. With the new long range batteries this will become more of an issue for both commercial and consumer use...

Tom Jacobson
http://www.floridaever-glides.com

[Sunday]

Perhaps a visit to your Podiatrist would be in order. You could have some custom orthotics made, and see if that helps. Feet don't really do well with too much soft cushioning; they like solid support, which is something that most shoes lack.

A good custom orthotic and a pair of solid shoes like Birkenstock, may be more helpful than spongy mats. I wear a pair of Birkenstock boots, and love them.


Mark (the other one)

Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

[SegwayBill]

Wayne has great pads to attach to the platform they make a big differance. I also put pads on the gear boxes they are great for hard turns when I push out against the gear boxes.
I also wear custom insole otherwise I get sore arches. The verticle G load on your feet when you bump and cracks in the side walk can injure your feet.
The 12.0 bag with a little weight in it will also smooth out your ride.
If you going to drop off a curb or hit a large bump it helps to rise up on your toes and bend your knees, this will take the shock of almost any impact.
Bill

[driley]

I still think that suspension will be added in the future. Once they have models with suspension, nobody will want to ride one of the old “rigid” models. Add 2-3 inches of suspension and dropping of a curb will be quit doable, without being jarred.

Devin

[SegwayUtah]

One problem with adding a suspension, I imagine, is that it would take away the "connected to the sidewalk/road" feel, which would make people do things on the HT which just weren't safe (i.e. remove some of the feedback).

Then again, I understand that race cars used to not have suspsensions because the argument went similarly. But they also have 4 wheels and are statically stable.

Chris

[SegwayBill]

I have heard that the big tires on the new X1 really smooth out the ride. We will find out in a month or two when they are released.

Bill

[pam]

I think, FWIW, that there are FEW jobs that these days that require a person to stand for 2 hours at a time, pretty much in one place. (Cashiers are the only ones I can think of...) So, it's not surprising that there's some foot and leg discomfort - particularly for newbies (not Tom, of course) who are doing a tour and might not be wearing shoes that might alleviate even some of the shock. I'm betting that those who experience the most discomfort are those who have even less experience on their feet in daily life. It may well be an evolution that would occur naturally - as long as it wouldn't affect the ability of the gyroscopes/tilt sensors to do their subtle dance.

I find that breaking up the stance helps - even if I stay on the machine - shifting the position of my feet. I did have more discomfort early on (it's all relative - I would have had even more if I'd walked the distance I segged) but a lot of that has gone as I've gotten used to the machine. I do think a lot of mine earlier was due to tension in the legs and feet muscles. Now I tend to compensate.

Pam

[KSagal]

I agree with the comments about tension and that as we are all members of an ever increasingly sedentary environment, leg and foot issues are likely to be greater annoyances.

The solution, however may lie elsewhere. Maybe the solution is not at the segway factory, but in the gym and at the shrink's couch.

A few deep knee bends done daily and unloading some of that tension may solve the problem.

Of course, it might not...

Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[pam]

Agreed, sorta, but on a group glide with a bunch of first-timers, you can't very well ask if they've been doing deep knee bends or visited their shrink or taken up meditation. :)

The soreness that we experience usually goes away as we get used to the machine. I think Tom's question might be more related to first timers who initial rides are extended. Course, I could be wrong, too.

Pam

[Stan671]

Forget the suspension - why not a seat? That will certainly reduce the foot and leg discomfort.

Stan Dobrowski

[QuadSquad]

quote:Originally posted by Stan671

Forget the suspension - why not a seat? That will certainly reduce the foot and leg discomfort.

Stan Dobrowski


ATTA Boy Stan,[^]:D[^]

[Florida Ever-Glides]

Stan,

That is certainly a great part of the solution...

Tom Jacobson
http://www.floridaever-glides.com

[macgeek]

Good Thread!
I don't realize HOW sore my feet are till I get OFF the segway and stand on 'solid ground' It took about 15 minutes of walking after doing the holloween parade till I felt 'normal' on my two feet again

Jonathan

Segway - "Let's Roll"
Proud Segway NY member
www.segwaynyny.com

[KSagal]

Anyone here should check out the photo galleries on the current Twheel thread.

It appears that the twheel has a great deal more deflection than a standard tire. I do not know the suspension dynamics of this, but at least on the larger bumps it may serve as a better and more comfortable ride, and therefore ease some of the pains discussed here...


Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[fredkap]

Michelin...Need any early adopters?

If so, you have come to the right place!

Just put them for sale on our buy sell board with any legal and non disclosure caveats you desire. One thing that we are good at, is analyzing something ad naseum.

Fred

[macgeek]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
May I introduce you to the "segway" of sneakers.

http://www.adidas.com/campaigns/adidas_1/content/index.asp?strCountry_adidascom=us&strBrand_adidascom=performance

Talk about SHOCK ABSORBERS!!!

JOnathan

Segway - "Let's Roll"
Proud Segway NY member
www.segwaynyny.com

[Florida Ever-Glides]

I think the discomfort in the feet is similiar to the discomfort in the butt when riding a 10-speed bicycle for any distance. It's the burden of weight and the vibrations of the uneven roadway.

Tom Jacobson
http://www.floridaever-glides.com

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by Florida Ever-Glides

I think the discomfort in the feet is similiar to the discomfort in the butt when riding a 10-speed bicycle for any distance. It's the burden of weight and the vibrations of the uneven roadway.
(RRRIIINNNGGG! The word 'bicycle' was used on SegChat. Time to WAKE UP!)

I think your feet/butt analogy is headed in the right direction, however, butt discomfort on a bike means you have the wrong saddle or the entire bike is improperly fit and adjusted to your body. Buy the wrong bike off the shelf from someone who doesn't know what he's doing and you'll never be comfortable. With properly fitted equipment, incredible distances are possible over any terrain. One size does not fit all.

My uneducated guess is that a pair of shoes unsuitable for walking two hours would also be unsuitable for gliding two hours on an HT. First, get good quality walking shoes that fit properly, then if vibration is a source of discomfort, knock a couple PSI off your tire pressure. (Something that won't be possible with a Tweel.)

JohnM,
RUSA #235
Whose butt is a perfect match for the Brooks B17 Champion Special, a design perfected nearly a hundred years ago. All leather, attached to a steel frame with copper rivets. Elegant simplicity. No padded spandex pants required.
http://www.brooksarchives.info/brooks%20/catalogs/1908%20brooks/page14and15.html
http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html

[rethin]

quote:Originally posted by JohnM

My uneducated guess is that a pair of shoes unsuitable for walking two hours would also be unsuitable for gliding two hours on an HT. First, get good quality walking shoes that fit properly, then if vibration is a source of discomfort, knock a couple PSI off your tire pressure. (Something that won't be possible with a Tweel.)



Sure, but wearing good walking shoes isn't always an option. If I'm going to work (or even riding at work) I want to wear my work shoes which may or may not be good walking shoes.

Rethin

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by rethin

Sure, but wearing good walking shoes isn't always an option. If I'm going to work (or even riding at work) I want to wear my work shoes which may or may not be good walking shoes.
Hooey. Work shoes and walking shoes are not mutually exclusive. The choice to wear uncomfortable shoes is yours and you bear the consequences. Try some Rockports.

I used to work with a woman who kept half dozen pairs of dressy shoes in a rack under her desk. She arrived in sneakers, having driven an ancient gas-guzzling Cadillac the 3/4 mile from her home.


JohnM
If riding 2 hours is fun, then riding 20 hours is 10 times more fun.
RUSA #235

[Florida Jim]

I'm thinking of getting one of these "fat mats" from the Rend corp.

http://rendcorporation.com/segway/mat2b.jpg

I guess one could use any sort of spongy mat material and cut their own. But, riders need some cushy shoes and maybe more to be comfortable for a few hours of standing on these solid axle chariots. Their site is at http://rendcorporation.com/segway

[Raving Glide]

<A good custom orthotic and a pair of solid <shoes like Birkenstock, may be more helpful <than spongy mats. I wear a pair of Birkenstock <boots, and love them.

This is also what I do.... I put my dress work shoes in my bag and ride in Birkenstocks.

Thank you Mark

GW

[SegwayBill]

Orthotics in all the shoes helps a lot!

Bill