Submerged Segway HT: observations

[SegwayUtah]

Today, I took a "shortcut" on one of my trips, which took me through 20 (twenty!) inches of water. I have been out in rainstorms with about 8" of water -- enough that is sloshes over the base of the HT, but today there was so much water that it completely covered the fenders, and then a bit.

It was crazy. The worst part was that the water had stuff floating in it, which got on my pants, leg, socks, shoes, etc. :)

Anyway, about the HT: I didn't even think twice about going through the water, which may or may not be good. I went really slowly, since I didn't know what "lied beneath" and the water was pretty murky. This was a good caution to take, since I found a few big rocks or something that I felt as I bumped over them.

The HT didn't complain at all going through the water, although after letting it sit (off) for a while it started and then gave me the "red wrench." I tipped it backwards to make sure water had run out of it (and didn't see any water come out), and restarted -- and it's fine.

Some observations:
1. Riding through 20" deep water is probably not the best thing to do. There could have been a big pothole down there that could have gotten me all wet or something :) Proceed very, very carefully, if at all. If I got to that situation again, I would turn back and take another route. The water just got deeper, and deeper, and deeper. It was weird.
2. Even thought my charing port cover was sealed (both inside flap and outside), it still got flooded with water. I thought it was water-tight, but I guess not. When I opened it up later on, water ran out. This is probably why I got the red wrench. Make sure that you dry out this port before charging :) -- that's 120V AC that's coming in at that port!
3. I'm not sure what would happen if one submerged the HT completely, up to the handlebars. I have heard a report of someone taking their HT into the swimming pool, riding to the deep end and back (or something), and being fine. But I don't know if this is really that good for the machine. I would avoid it for sure :) But I wouldn't worry about rain hurting it or anything.

Anyway, I'm just super-impressed with the machine, as normal. I wonder what would happen if someone submerged a motorized scooter in that kind of water. I know a lot of cars would have problems being submerged in water--the air intake kind of needs air :) Maybe electric/gas hybrids could deal with the situation at slower speeds.

Chris

[Deviant]

Very impressive. I assume most electric vehicles would short out the battery system as the positive and negative posts are generally only separated by air. I know that the wires have less resistance for the path to flow, but always thought that the water contact would not be a good thing. I'd love to hear about water and batteries from experts or experienced.

The HT is surely one of the best quality products on the market in any category.

[Sal]

See my newest post about something along the same lines:

"Another safety shutdown"

(a similar incident)

-Sal

Think Different
www.apple.com

Answers that Matter
www.lilly.com


http://home.earthlink.net/~sal1k/images/si2f.jpg

[ZoliHonig]

Wow!

I knew the Ht was water resitant, but I would have never imagined to that extent.

Maybe you can put some silicone gel around the inseide of the charging port to completely seal it.



[8]-Zoli[8]

[ElectraGlide]

Am I a minority here that thinks it not smart to take a 4500.00 battery operated computer chip and printed circuit board packed machine underwater ??

Steve

[segwayowner]

I agree with you electra.....
Whenever i go out in the rain on a glide, i am very causious, because the roads are slippery.
The one thing that i am worried about is that the ports that accept the iButons will get wet, and if i get a safety shutodwn, i wont be able to restart. I usually carry around a normal dish towel to cover that and the screen up.

Very cool!,


DES: Segway owner....
it has a nice ring to it

A human has 60,000 miles of blood vessels in their body.
Alaska was bought from Russia for about 2 cents an acre
A quarter has 119 grooves on its edge; a dime has one less groove
It's impossible to sneeze with your eyes open

[defenbaugh]

I'm not going to make judgement. Surely 20" deep water doesn't do a machine any good, but, I'm glad others are pushing the HT to its limits and reporting so I know the limits. Don't think I'll try that unless absolutely necessary.

Ron
"Literacy requires reading, change requires effort and enlightenment requires courage."

[Zorba9]

A Segway submarine? (LOL) I am surprised it's still running at all Chris. Circuit boards and H2O - not a good combination. I think you were lucky this time!

KOG

Zorba9.....

[ions82]

Jeez. That takes guts. Let's see if it's still going strong by the end of the week. When I get a Seg, a wet towel will probably be the most moisture it ever sees. I wouldn't even take it out in the rain. Regardless, the Seg has got to be one of the most reliable, electric transportation devices. Most power wheelchairs are garbage, and those things retail for 2-3 times the cost of a Seg. Nowhere NEAR the Seg's technology or reliability. $4500 is a great deal for it, but I still would never consider submerging it.

[Stan671]

Chris, should we call you Captain Chris or Captain Nemo?

Stan Dobrowski

[W9GFO]

Chris, I would highly recommend removing your batteries and verifying that there is no water inside. Perhaps set them in front of a fan for a few hours. I have seen at least two bad batteries that were most likely the result of moisture intrusion, and I don't thing they were submerged. :)

Rich H
Everett, WA

[BruceWright]

Perhaps people closer to the design could clarify... but I remember speaking with a Segway engineer once, and I got the impression that these things could run underwater for hours and hours.

Contrary to what you might think, the worst think that could happen wouldn't be that your Segway would get ruined!

The way it was described to me was "Those batteries are the bottle. And inside is a genie. That genie is chemicals and electricity. You DON'T want the genie to get out of the bottle."

It was described by the engineer in such a way that I knew that the Segway was safety tested to a degree that nothing else would have been. For that reason, and that reason alone, the Segway is the only high-voltage item that I'll ever let water get near me and it.

I have a great deal of confidence in my Segway in water.

BUT. And here's the but.

Segway LLC doesn't make promises like that. They don't sell it as this thing that could run submerged for hours, days, weeks, months...

So, their promises being what they are, I ride mine only within the specs they recommend. They say not over platform deep, I comply.

I know that my Segway is safe, but just know that in life nothing is risk-free. I trust my Segway, but I'm not going to get in a bathtub with it!


Once, I was hauling my Segway in my car, and it was exposed to a crazy downpour of rain for about 2 hours at freeway speeds.

It started right up. I checked out the inside of the control shaft. Dry as a bone.

Ahhh... Segway engineering!

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[defenbaugh]

X-Man-Thanks for the rubber ducky link. The Renaissance motel in Northbrook gave the ducky out when my wife and I took our HT orientation on March 22, 2003. Still have it and when it was an option for an avitar, figured it was as fitting as any. Don't know of the correlation between Renaissance and the ducky.

Ron
"Literacy requires reading, change requires effort and enlightenment requires courage."

[SegwayUtah]

BruceWright said:
So, their promises being what they are, I ride mine only within the specs they recommend. They say not over platform deep, I comply.

Exactly. I read an article on the Internet from one high-profile Segway employee who, if I remember right, indicated that the HT could be submerged without a problem for short periods of time.

Anyway, I think the water that got into my charging port may have come from the inside, not the outside. You all know that rubber ring at the bottom of the control shaft? Well, mine doesn't have one. Aargh. So that's how the water got into the machine. It was grumpy earlier _after_ I opened him up (would turn on, but wouldn't go into balance mode) so I'm going to let him dry out :)

I expect that all will be well. If not, I'll surely let you guys know :) I can't believe I'm missing that ring.

BTW, I would recommend not taking the HT through more than "platform deep" of water. I actually thought that was as deep as this water got, and then all of a sudden it got a foot deeper quite quickly. I have such (probably ludicrous <g>) instinctive trust in the machine that I was more worried about my shoes than the HT. I just went really slow so that I didn't slip/trip, which probably also had the beneficial effect of not forcing the water into the machine.

I have been through 6"-8" of water at a little more speed before, when I could see through it. It's weird making waves with an HT.

Anyway, I'm glad that I'm the one experimenting :) Again, my preliminary recommendation: if your feet are getting soaked from water rushing over the platform, it's probably a good time to go inside/find another path/turn back/etc. :)

(Oh, and always power-assist when you don't feel comfortable riding over something, through water, etc. You never know what could be down there. For the record here, there was concrete underneath my tires, which I have ridden a zillion times before. Probably not the smartest thing to do, but I did know what was down there before the water (and anything the water brought with it), so I wasn't worried about big potholes, etc. Most of the time I ride through puddles, I do it really slowly, and usually I know that there are no potholes underneath (but again, there could be rocks). How is that for a disclaimer? Anyway, be safe. That's what is important.

Chris

[Ground Loop]

I would be most concerned about the battery ports under the HT platform. Those ports go directly from the battery to the circuit boards, and according to a few people who have dug that far -- are not sealed! That is, if water makes it between the top of the battery and the HT base, it could flow through the connector and flood the gyro/computer compartments. That would be either sudden failure (shorts, electrical problems) or later problems (corrosion, debris, sloshing, mildew).

If it was my own HT, and I rode it through ankle-deep water, I would completely disassemble it for inspection just to see how far the water made ingress into the chassis. It seems the HT is more "rain proof" than submersible, and judging from pictures of the battery ports, I wouldn't ride through water high enough to touch the base at all. I'd really like to see some rubber gaskets between the batteries and chassis.

[SegwayUtah]

Aah, here we go. I knew I read somewhere that the Segway could be submerged in water for short periods of time. To quote:

quote:Q: Can the Segway tough out the marine environment?

A: "Yes," ... The machine is built to rigorous, water-resistant military specifications and can easily endure long stowage periods onboard, although total immersion in either fresh or salt water for more than a half-hour will likely do damage.
http://www.powerandmotoryacht.about.com/features/1103segway/index.html -- see part 2

Okay, so technically that doesn't say we should submerge them, but it gives me the idea that they'll be okay submerged for a few seconds or even a minute. Which is why I didn't worry.

Chris

[Ground Loop]

Very interesting quote Chris. Given what I've seen about the battery/base coupling, I don't see how it could possibly resist flooding for 30 minutes of submersion. Bizzare.

[W9GFO]

quote:Q: Can the Segway tough out the marine environment?

A: "Yes," ... The machine is built to rigorous, water-resistant military specifications and can easily endure long stowage periods onboard, although total immersion in either fresh or salt water for more than a half-hour will likely do damage.
http://www.powerandmotoryacht.about.com/features/1103segway/index.html -- see part 2

If half hour is "likey" to do damage, how long before it would "possibly" do damage. Or "maybe" do damage, or "might" or "could" or "definetly" or "certainly" or "unlikely" etc...

Note that he doesn't say that one second of total immersion won't result in damage.

From another thread;

quote:The Segway batteries are NOT sealed. They only become sealed when they are snugged up against the powerbase. If you take a battery off you can look right in the hole where the connector is and see the cells.

SO, the only thing keeping water out of your batteries is the gasket around the connector. I trust that seal in normal use but I would be wary of submerging it.

BTW, I am in no way against submerging Segways, sounds like fun, just keep in mind that single gasket between the water and the inside of your batteries.

Rich H
Everett, WA

[SegwayUtah]

Hey Rich:

I took the batteries off my HT, and took off the control shaft. The batteries weren't wet at all. Well, there was like one single drop of water on each, but I'm guessing that was from me taking it apart. There was some water in the bottom of the hole where the control shaft goes in, though.

Here's the interesting thing: the last time I took the batteries off an HT, they had black stickers on them, and the seal between the battery contacts and the base was simply the connectors themselves, I think. Well, my batteries have cool gray "Segway" stickers on them, and they have a big soft-foam-type (hypophobic) piece surrounding the connectors, which appears like it would create a great additional seal between the batteries and the base.

I'll see if I can get a good picture. In the meantime, I have a fan blowing on my batteries "just in case" :) But there appears to be no water in the actual unit.

Chris

[Stewbonz]

I have a Segway is the repair shop because of water. I suspect it got in thru the battery connectors while washing. I had the Segway laying on its side giving the tires a good scrub and gentle rinse.
I won't be riding my equipment thru and deep water, thats for sure.

JEFF JARVIS
http://www.thailandsegwaytours.com/

[SegwayUtah]

quote:Originally posted by Stewbonz

I have a Segway is the repair shop because of water. I suspect it got in thru the battery connectors while washing. I had the Segway laying on its side giving the tires a good scrub and gentle rinse.
I won't be riding my equipment thru and deep water, thats for sure.

Really? Wow, that really surprises me. When you say "at the repair shop," do you mean sent back to the states? Ouch!

It's good to hear that you take good care of your machines over there, though. You're a leader in the evolution of transportation for sure.

Chris

[SegwayUtah]

UPDATE and more observations:

So, my HT was doing great after being submerged in water. Then I took him apart to transport him, put him on his side while transporting, and put him back together when I arrived.

The HT did fine for a while, and then did a shutdown. It started back up, but then shutdown later. Grumpy grumpy.

So I took the "drying out" advice (Rich, others) and put the entire machine outside for two days (brought in at night). I took the batteries and the control shaft off, etc.

There was no water in the batteries that I could find, but there was water in the control shaft (doh, missing gasket). Additionally, there was water in the charge port, which was my only worry.

The HT seems to be relatively sealed from the outside. But inside, it's open to its systems. The batteries, power base, transmissions, and control shaft base (where the control shaft connects) are all apparently open to each other. Which means if water gets in one of those, it can get in the others.

I'm guessing I got water in the control shaft base (through the charging port) and it dripped down onto the boards or the balance sensor assembly.

Anyway, I dried out for 2 days, just to make sure any residual water was gone, and I've been riding around a bunch today. No complaints, no shutdowns, no problems.

So, as I started this out as "observations," I'll end with an observation:

The Segway HT seems to be designed to protect its rider and also itself. If you find yourself in rain, I wouldn't worry. But if you go through deep water, and think you may have gotten water in your machine, take off the batteries and control shaft and leave it out in the sun for a day. If the batteries would get warmer than, say, 100 F, leave them in the shade.

I imagine it's expensive to fix a Segway HT with severe water damage (and I'm guessing that's the typical kind of water damage), and it's hard to see what's under deep water, so I'm probably going to turn around the next time I get into water that's deeper than the platform of the HT. The charge port seems to be the most likely place for water to creep in.

I'll let you all know if the HT acts up at all, but it seems like its regular self. I even went and climbed up and down some steep hills for fun. Oh, I missed riding these last two days!

Chris

[W9GFO]

Good to hear that it's over the grumpiness. I was thinking I might have to make you an offer on your soggy powerbase. I'd just love to tear one apart. ;)

Rich H
Coeur d'Alene, ID

[Mr_Laurenzano]

Ive got the inners of a control shaft want some pic's ????

I take my seg down to the beach at low tide and ride arround in the surf but never above the height of the tire. Its clearly stated that you should not submerse the HT. But it also says not to ride two poeple on it either (GUILTY) .




Segway-
Half the speed of a car,
Twice as Smart.

[Ground Loop]

Mr. L, Pics yes yes...

Do you have any of the inside of the sealed handlebar?

It's like autopsies.. you mourn the passing while someone can learn from the body.

[Sal]

That's a new way to look at it:

Segway Cadavers!

I vote for the formation of the Segway Medical School!

-Sal

Think Different
www.apple.com

Answers that Matter
www.lilly.com


http://home.earthlink.net/~sal1k/images/si2f.jpg

[vanclute]

There was a "mostly dead" Segway for sale on Ebay a few months ago... it was REALLY trashed, missing one wheel, and some other stuff, I forget what. It looked like the base was intact though. I'm useless with anything mechanical though so I didn't even consider it. Now of course I wish I had as I think it went for like $100 and just to have a spare wheel and handlebar would've been worth it...

J

[Stewbonz]

I think Phil picked up that mystery base. The thread was discontinued,I believe the base was related to a theft in Fla?
Well Phil, what happened?

JEFF JARVIS
http://www.thailandsegwaytours.com/

[Easy Glider]

WOW Chris, you may have just invented a new sport for us SEGheads!

I have watched the snowmobilers that got very bored waiting for summer to end and the snow to fall. They started riding their machines on watered grass, through large puddles, across ponds and then onto the lake!

With enough speed, those hopped-up snowmobiles can cross a fair-sized pond with ease (you don't want to take a steep approach though!) Anyone that is fairly agile and is quick with their right hand can have a little fun in the hot summer sun.

But the real heavyweights take it out on the lake! On a marked course they speed onto the water at 70-80 mph and can actually go quite a distance before Newton's Law catches up with them (it seems the snowmobiles actually ARE heavier than water). At any rate, in this sport the farther you go before descending into the H20, the more points you are awarded and the more notches you get to carve into your handlebars.

Recently however, after a couple of bad outcomes with scuba divers attempting to retrieve the winner's machines in the deepest part of the lake, the official sanctioning organization has changed the rules, only allowing competition on natural lakes with a channel of less than 135 feet in depth. They have also considered mandating water wings for all participants that cannot swim (although so far, they have only lost a few real losers).

They are also trying to figure out how they can have a "Victory Lap" celebration so the winning rider can spin some donuts in the grass (or possibly in a very large mud-wrestling pit) after getting the checkered flag. They are quite confident this would create even more interest, prompting more snow(H20)mobilers to participate in the sport, and may even attract some sponsorship money.

At any rate, "POND GLIDING" as you describe it, holds a lot of potential for some great competition - and just think of all the national attention it would get! Just get one of those super-batteries, override the speed limiter switch, set the approach angle of the platform of your daily glider, and go out and have some real fun!

Please, go back and tape-measure that pond you glided (the width-to-length aspect ratio of the pond is going to be crucial in setting up an appropriate competition course). For the depth, just measure how far up you wet your pants, and then add the height of the riding platform - that should be close enough. (Did I say that right?[?])

Wow, this is going to be exciting! Like the Laker's Snowmobile Competition Team captain said recently, "You can tell the men from the boys by the cost of (the repair for) their toys"!!!!!!!!

Have a great summer Chris.....

Love ya man,
[8D]
Easy Glider

P.S. You haven't by chance tried to ride one of those snomobile things across a river have you??? ;)

At what point does the Turbo kick in ?????????

[Stewbonz]

Perhaps you can organize an underwater Segway Race in the hotel swimming pool at Segfest 2004.
The last one to short out his Segway gets a T-shirt.....

JEFF JARVIS
http://www.thailandsegwaytours.com/

[W9GFO]

quote:Originally posted by Easy GliderWith enough speed, those hopped-up snowmobiles can cross a fair-sized pond with ease

That is cool. I was quite amazed the first time I saw that. But, have you seen sand rails run accross water? That's just insane!

Rich H
Hampshire, IL

[Easy Glider]

Rich,

Sandrail = light frame + big motor + huge "floatation" tires with "paddles" attached. Should kick some serious pond water !!!!!

I wonder what the odds are of doing a "wheelie" on the pond and going over backwards ???

How much of a "run" does a sandrail need before hitting the water? How high is the rooster tail?

Easy

At what point does the Turbo kick in ?????????

[BruceWright]

http://www.thespeciousreport.com/newsimages/2003/troublemaker.jpg




-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[Segway of DELMARVA]

Just in case anyone missed this, the Suba-Doo, being dubed as the underwater segway

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/05/segway_of_the_sea_starts/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/media/1427.jpg

Also, as a side note, from what I have seen regarding water and electronics, the water actually does relatively little damage to circuit boards (as most are epoxy coated, and have relatively small solder joints) and if the water doesn't instantly short out the device, it usually has a good chance of survival.
What I have experienced that does the actual damage is when the water dries and leaves the "scum" behind on the board or the circuit. Often times, if caught early enough, with a little distilled water, and alcohol, most electronics can be cleaned relatively easily with little damage - if allowed to dry thoroughly.

In the case of the segs, it sounds like there is enough "non-exposed" circuit components, that any water that does enter the system has little chance of exposure to anything vital, and what does risk exposure, appears to not be crittical.

However, regarding salt water, that can be one of the most corrosive elements to electronics. As the salt and minerals can very rapidly cause electrolytic action (read battery) it doesn't take very much to do extensive damage. And for some reason, salt water seems to "wick" through electrical circuits more so then "plain" water. Since LLC states that the units can remain submerged for short times in salt water, I assume there is very little damage that can happen from regular fresh water exposure.

Definately worth a deeper look.

Russell
info@segwayofdelmarva.com
http://www.segwayofdelmarva.com

[vanclute]

I gotta say, they don't start off on a very good note...

"Fans of the Segway scooter now have a way to look just as silly traveling underwater as they do on land thanks to the efforts of an inventive Australian company."

So, anyone who rides a Segway looks silly? Hmph.

AND they can't even get the dang price of the Segway right!!

"ScubaDoo says distributors from all over the world are looking to get their hands on the new kit. The first scooters are going to be available this week at AUD$17,500 (US$13,246) each. So, for just twice the price of a Segway, gadget freaks can begin finding Nemo. ®"

So a Segway costs over $6600???

J

[SegwayUtah]

quote:Originally posted by Segway of DELMARVA

Since LLC states that the units can remain submerged for short times in salt water, I assume there is very little damage that can happen from regular fresh water exposure.

Russell,

Do you have any quotes from Segway LLC that indicate that the HT can be submerged in water for short periods of time.

Chris

[jpf]

quote:Often times, if caught early enough, with a little distilled water, and alcohol, most electronics can be cleaned relatively easily with little damage - if allowed to dry thoroughly.


FYI .. WD-40 was developed specifically for "Water Displacement" in rocket engines I believe...I have no fear spraying that stuff on electronics to displace water.. see http://www.wd40.com/Brands/wd40_faqs.html

jpf

[Segway of DELMARVA]

Chris,

No, I was basing that quote off of what someone else stated on here. I will check into it though - see if I can get an "official" Disclaimer.


Russell
info@segwayofdelmarva.com
http://www.segwayofdelmarva.com