I am quite mad right now...

[dhugger]

While on my daily glide, I decided to cut across the parking lot of the Durham Market Place (a grocery store plaza nicknamed “the dump”). I was about half way through and a big old (very pissed off looking) man in an orange vest pointed at me and told me, “Come over here.” I did. I said, “How are you?” and gave me a dirty look. “Can I see your license, registration, and insurance papers for this thing?” What???? I’d never heard that before. So, I told him, “I don’t need any of that. In NH, I’m classified as a pedestrian on this.” His response was, “I don’t care. If you don’t have insurance, you can’t be here. This is private property. Leave.” Confused and not in the mood to argue, I simply said, “Ok,” and left. What really got to me is that I’d ridden there dozens of times, given many demos, and was even asked to ride *inside* the grocery store by one of the store managers so she could “see it in action.” And... IT WAS A PAKING LOT!!!! Since when do people need insurace to travel across a parking lot??? Tomorrow, I’m finding out who owns that property and writing him/her a letter to get this matter fixed... beacuse if it isn't, there are a few stores in that plaza that will lose at least one customer. I really don’t understand the logic of some people. In NH (as of when I took driver's ed), you aren’t even required to have insurance on your CAR. And I bet almost nobody has insurance on their bicycles. I’m sure who ever this guy is, he doesn’t stop every person in a car or on a bike asking them for insurance, registration, and a license. God this guy made me angry!

http://segwaychat.com/photos/dhugger/dhugger2.gif

[BruceWright]

I would have just said, then call the police.

I actually DO have insurance. Hehehe.


Too bad you were cutting through, rather than going to the store.

At least in California, parking lots are considered a quasi-highway legally. They cannot impose laws that are different from regular vehicle code, if they allow the public in.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[Sal]

Wait a second, you were stopped for gliding in a PARKING LOT????? I could MAYBE understand if it was in a store, but a PARKING LOT????

So as you said, Derek, does he stop mopeds? Does he stop cars he thinks are ugly?

Please keep us posted on what happens.

-Sal

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[mrleisure]

You can get booted from private property at any time, for almost any reason with or without a Segway underneath your feet. This guy may have been completely correct, but based of what you've written he sounds at least slightly out of line.

Show ID to someone who doesn't have a badge and gun? Hah.

My advice is to print and carry your local EPAMD laws with you. A great idea is to fold them twice and tuck them right under the mat, so you can't forget them.

Trust me, there is almost no greater satisfaction than telling a law enforcement officer that you pretty sure you're doing nothing wrong, and then asking him to read the paperwork that backs you up.

I still vividly remember watching SegwayChat member Race3 shut down a cop on the Boston Esplanade. The officer was literally scratching his head by the time Mark was finished with him. I learned an important lesson that day.



"In the future, we will all drive standing up"
David Byrne, in 1984

[BruceWright]

I can do 'em one better. I worked with the LA City government to craft proposed Segway legislation. I can tell 'em who they can contact in the Mayor's office and at LAPD to confirm that what I'm doing is legal!


Never had to. Every police officer I've met has:

1. Known exactly what I was riding and that it was legal.
2. Thought it looked cool, and had a bunch of questions about it.
and some have

3. Gotten a demo!

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[Florida Ever-Glides]

Maybe the person who was harassing you didn't even have the authority to do so. It could have been an 'ego' issue. I would find out why the HT is not allowed and hear it from someone who is more rational than the one you encountered. Good Luck...

Tom Jacobson

[statmed]

quote:Originally posted by X-man

You are not required to provide a diver's license to anyone - period.


If you try to DIVE at a resort that is unfamilar with you, they will ask for your DIVING credentials. You must show your DIVERS certification/license to DIVE. ;)




H.M. Stern
statmed@optonline.net

I Love It When A Plan Comes Together (Hannibal Smith)

[SegwayBill]

Derek
Join the club.
Some people same to over react to the Segway it hasn't changed in the last year. A couple of months ago a guy jogging down Park Ave. Stopped in front of me to get in my face, I was glad Segways go backwards went to the next curb cut and ignored him.
I agree with Chris no badge or gun see you later I hope not.
In NYC if you get stopped by NYPD and do not have proper ID, they take you to the station to be Identified.
95% of people love Segways you met 5% today.
Bill

[god1138]

You know, Derek, I would have had half a mind to tell the rent-a-patrol dude that he needs to get a life and lighten the hell up.

I'm sorry, but I would've let his little problem become a contentious point and probably slammed his rent-a-cop self that he's essentially as important as, I dunno, a garbage man, for what it's worth. People with nothing better to do than harass others don't get a whole lot of respect from me. Yes, it WAS private property, but I wouldn't have let Mr.-minimum-wage-grumpy-half-a-cop lay it down like that without a little more struggle. I would've asked to speak with his supervisor, then the property management, and then whatever else I had to do to get him to take his ugliness and focus it on something more in need of attention; namely, his own attitude.



-Robert
"I'm tired of following my dreams, so I asked them where they were going and told them I'd hook up with them later." - Mitch Hedberg

[brina]

derek man next time get the guys name and the name of his organization and his title, ya know fun nazi or whatever it might be.
when you are going back to fight a battle its always good to know who you are defending yourself against.
then when you talk to the owner or whoever you can specifically say it was this bastard who hassled you.

[Lohja]

I'd ride through that parking lot until he confronted me again. I'd tell him to show me a copy of the law you are violating and to call a "real" policeman. Then I'd continue to ride around the parking lot. But first, if he demands you come to him, ignore him and continue gliding. What can he do? Assault you? Have some fun with this jerk. Make him run after you. If he does grab you, fall to the ground and feign a back injury. Demand to speak to the store manager.

[Sal]

I hope we're all being funny when we are talking about playing these kinds of jokes on people. However angry we get, however stupid we think the people harassing us are. We should refrain from being demeaning, as well, we should refrain from acting in a manner which will give Segway users a bad name.

I am sure none of us would behave in an unbecoming manner unless we were totally harassed by someone with no authority to do so.

I remember Mike (StlSegway, or SEG American Missouri) and I were kicked out of a restaurant around MardiGlide time, he even knew the people who ran the place, but a security rent a cop decided to be an *** about things. In that case, the officer was being overly rude and putting us down with his tone.

Although with the way we were being treated I think we would have had a right to be making a scene, Mike and I left. Although I would have liked to have given that cop one swift kick in the, well you know, we did as we were told.

Although most Segway owners are more educated than those that may harrass us. I think it's our duty to be civil, even under the most extreme of circumstances.

As we have found out, it's those precious few who can make life hell for the future of Segways.

The last thing we need is to develop a reputation for being pompous know it alls.

... even though we DO know it all. Ha ha!! (kidding)

I think Derek did the right thing. After getting the manager's permission to glide there, maybe Derek can get a video of him doing whirly whirls around that guard! LOL

-Sal



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[verbl800]

<sarcasm on>
OMG!! You were asked not to ride on private property! The nerve of some people; thinking they can dictate what you can do on *their* property! You should sue!!!
<sarcasm off>

Bruce - I'm going to have to call you out on your theory of "in Cali, parking lots = highways". That would in effect dictate how people may utilize their own property, and I can't imagine that is indeed the case. Is there anywhere you know of where I could find more info?

[Sal]

Verbl, I don't know if your post was meant to agree with the guard who asked Derek to leave, but the private property Derek was gliding on was a parking lot for a market. I would assume that if cars were allowed there, having a Segway would seriously not be an issue. IF this was an empty lot, not meant for parking automobiles, I might tend to agree about the private property issue, but if it was in use, it makes absolutely no sense to thwart one "wheeled" human and not another.

If I were going to be black and white about analyzing the theories posted about private property and the universal rights therein in these posts, I wouldn't be able to go to the mall here in Indianapolis because I coudn't glide into the mall, BUT I could glide right up to the entrance, and I doubt anyone would fuss if I glided into their parking garage, even though it's private property.

There are exceptions to every rule, and SO WHAT if a parking lot is private property, if it is being used by prospective customers to the store, noone should discriminate about the customer based on what he or she uses to get there.

These issues aren't so cut and dry folks.

-Sal

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[SegwayUtah]

To bring up another point...

If I have a parking lot in front of my building, and it serves for years as a "second entrance" to the parking lot next to mine, it will be really difficult for me to block off that "easement" between the two properties.

This situation generally arises when someone wants to tear apart a private road they've built which has been allowing access to neighbors' properties as well. Local governments start to look at that as not-so-private property and, especially if the roadway is the exclusive entrance to another property, require that an easement remain.

After you let the general public use your property for a while, it becomes "public" private property. It's very hard to start discriminating as to who you will or will not allow there, unless there is a safety issue, etc.

Maybe there was a perceived safety issue. I say educate, don't escalate :)

Chris

[verbl800]

Sal - the security guard was probably under orders to not allow kids to play in the parking lot. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Derek was a kid playing on his scooter in the parking lot. He wasn't shopping, he was simply using his scooter in a parking lot in which he had no intent to conduct business. Not to be an idealist about this, but Derek was trespassing, pure and simple.

The parking lot is private property. If I owned a parking lot in front of a store, I wouldn't want kids playing on their scooters in it. Even if it was a Segway just like mine, the fact it I wouldn't want the liability involved.

[Sal]

Well, I might stand to be corrected as well, but I don't think Derek was "playing" He was cutting across the parking lot, just like most of us might take a shortcut through the back curbcut of a Gas station, or parking lot, or an alley.

I don't think Derek was loitering, doing stunts, or anything of the sort, at least that's how I interpreted the first sentence of the head post.

The guard's perception of anyone not conducting business in the store as being a nuisance or playing is completely irrational.

-Sal

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[BruceWright]

Verbl,

Cali is like Soviet Russia when it comes to property rights! You should know that!

Upon reading the CVC I find that in order for the highway right of way rules to be effect on private property, it has to be posted on a sign by the owner.

While it seems strange to me that a business wouldn't let people ride a Segway up to the bike racks in order to park and shop, I guess that's just going to happen. It probably happens to bikes, too.

On second though, no, it probably doesn't.



Something else about the California Vehicle Code that I noticed that might shed some light on his request for license.

In California, at least, it's illegal to drive in a parking lot without a license. I guess (just like my mom did) people are taking their kids to the parking lot to teach them how to drive. That got outlawed.

Maybe this security guard was mistakenly thinking that this law applied to you. So he wasn't applying some kind of "i deny you the ability to be on this private property", but merely trying to use the license and registration and insurance law incorrectly.


Another note, according to the California Supreme Court, if you decided to hold a picket sign, he couldn't eject you! But that's only in California!

SOVIET RUSSIA!



-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[Deviant]

Great idea, Bruce!

Instead of just "easing" through the parking lot, he can pull out a "Rights for Segway Riders" sign while driving through. I doubt the law states that one has to picket for a minimum length of time.

[BruceWright]

You might not find you have the same protection in Texas. This was founded on California State Constitutional law.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[bicycledriver]

quote:Originally posted by mrleisure

You can get booted from private property at any time, for almost any reason with or without a Segway underneath your feet.

Yes. Here are some examples of signs posted at shopping centers that prohibit bicycles:

http://humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/parking/nobicycles.htm

The only recourse is to contact the property management and ask for permission to use your vehicle to patronize those businesses.

Failing that, you can write to your city council members to request that the city encourage property owners to allow access to shopping centers via light vehicles.

-Steve Goodridge

[Sal]

Steve,

The text on the picture page says it all. It is unfair to allow certain vehicles and disallow others. TO put it more specifically, it is unfair to those who use other forms of transportation to get around. Why punish non drivers?

I think the intent of the signs is to prevent loitering and hazardous play on the premesis, but the conveyed message is something much different.

-Sal

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[Race3]

Mr. Leisure: incase you ever lose that memory... here's a pic of the actual event. ;) http://segwayboston.org/general.asp?body=segmeet

Derek: While I understand how frustrating your experience can be... always make sure you're talking with the right person. This guy should not have asked you to produce insurance papers... I doubt he asks every person who drives in via car to show their insurance. I would just explain that you are doing nothing wrong and if he feels differently, then you would gladly speak with the manager or owner.

[BruceWright]

Thanks for the link, Steve.

Those are some pretty awful signs. Have bicyclist groups protested them?

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[dhugger]

I find it downright stupid what some of those signs say... if you can walk, and you can drive, why can't you do other things??? Verbl, in response to what you said, I wouldn't typically refer to a 20 year old engineering student as a "kid," but ok... and this was the first time I rode into that parking lot without stopping in one of the stores to buy something. Also, I've spoken to managers at two stores about parking the HT inside while I shop and they were find with it. Don't you think that if no transportation devices besides cars were allowed on the property they would have told me?

http://segwaychat.com/photos/dhugger/dhugger2.gif

[bicycledriver]

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright

Thanks for the link, Steve.
Those are some pretty awful signs. Have bicyclist groups protested them?


I took the pictures; the bike under the signs at The Arboretum shopping center is mine. I have forwarded the pictures to our city's transportation planner in charge of bicycle transportation. She is working on a new ordinance to require bicycle racks at new and upgraded shopping centers. I am encouraging her to include language that would prohibit signs that prohibit bicycle parking, in favor of allowing signs that instead say something like "No Playing in Parking Lot". What do you think of "No Playing or Cruising in Parking Lot" to cover driving back and forth or in circles for entertainment via any type of vehicle?

I have not approached the property owners directly yet. I have seen no enforcement of the prohibitions. In the case of The Arboretum, I don't think the property owner is likely to be friendly toward me, because I sit on the planning and zoning board, and advocated denial of his request to rezone the property to allow some changes in the hotel that was planned. That's a long story unrelated to transportation modes.

Steve

[citivolus]

The verbage of those signs is a bit severe if not plain silly. Why silly? It theoretically prevents a kid from getting hit by a car while playing around but doesn't stop someone doing donuts or power slides around the lot. A little clarification seems to be in order.

--
swiftly flying

[bicycledriver]

quote:Originally posted by citivolus

The verbage of those signs is a bit severe if not plain silly. Why silly? It theoretically prevents a kid from getting hit by a car while playing around but doesn't stop someone doing donuts or power slides around the lot. A little clarification seems to be in order.


I suspect that the real purpose of the signs is to run off the demographic of young people who don't own cars. Some local shopping centers have "no loitering" signs, but most shopping centers approve of loitering by older, richer patrons who may socialize or snack in the "gathering areas" between shopping excursions.

Shopping centers in Cary are usually a long walk from residential areas, due to the single-use zoning, dendritic street topology and mandatory wooded buffers between different land uses. Many of the kids who visit shopping centers use bikes, skates, or scooters to reach them more conveniently. Prohibiting such vehicles makes it harder for this demographic to reach the shopping centers.

As for reckless motoring around innocent people, that's already illegal under state law, even on private property.

-Steve Goodridge

[jrmiller]

Bottom Line.....Unless a "person" can identify him(her)self as a sworwn officer of the law, DO NOT EVEAR show him(her) your ID. It is your identiy and not to be shared with anyone who asks unless he(she) has a need to know and see only after identifying him(her) self even if he(she) is in a "police looking" like uniform. If he (she) is a real officer, he(she) should be glad to show you some ID to back -up the uniform. Been there done that was one JR SEg-On SEG-RIGHT

[skeet1111]

I was actually allowed to continue to the nearby Brookstone store inside the local mall after being confronted by one of the mall's so-called "rent a cops". I politely explained that there is a law that considers the segways to be a human transporter and not a scooter and is allowed to travel most places pedestrians travel. I gave him a quick demonstration of its maneuverability and explained that I wouldn't expect to do my Christmas shopping on the segway and would be careful. He scratched his head, but allowed me to continue. While on sidewalks, I also try to be courteous of pedestrians on sidewalks and try to let them know that we are just using this source of transportation to lesson our dependence on the gas companies while sparing the environment.