Problem W/Rain & HT Not Starting Up?

[driley]

I have twice now had a problem that looks like it could be the result of riding my HT in the rain. On each occasion, I rode the Segway home during some fairly steady rain. Both times I was able to ride the Segway to work the next morning without problem. Unfortunately, when trying to fire it up to go home, all I got was the beep and no display. After trying the “key tap” method both times to no avail, I ended up removing the control shaft and unplugging the wires to reset. After that it worked fine.

Anyone think this might be related to the Segway getting soaked in the rain?

Devin

[smoother]

May not be rain directly, but the high humidity in and around the HT during and after. Although the HT is buttoned down pretty tight ( I have one in pieces to prove it) there are places where humidity might be able to get in. I'm thinking around the CS. This used to be a big problem with cars 20 or so years ago, moisture getting into things. Now they are buttoned down very well.

Next time you have to take the CS off. Spray inside all 4 halves of the connectors with WD40 or its equal. WD40 (as we all know) displaces moisture.

Let us know if it cures the problem.

Also. After riding in the rain. Take the time to dry it off completly, including under the mat, and do it in a place other than where it will be parked for the night (avoids the puddle that will collect under it).

John Out.
"Live to glide, glide to live"

[stevew]

I had that back in December, after I rode in medium rain I had the beep-no start, then safety shutdown, turns out my handlebar was not water resistant. Luckily LLC replaced the handlebar under warranty. But I made a small rain cover for the keyport/display area. Turns out even a perfect handlebar/cs will have trouble restarting if the keyport area gets wet.

[Suzie]

quote:Originally posted by smoother

May not be rain directly, but the high humidity in and around the HT during and after. Although the HT is buttoned down pretty tight ( I have one in pieces to prove it) there are places where humidity might be able to get in. I'm thinking around the CS. This used to be a big problem with cars 20 or so years ago, moisture getting into things. Now they are buttoned down very well.

Next time you have to take the CS off. Spray inside all 4 halves of the connectors with WD40 or its equal. WD40 (as we all know) displaces moisture.

Let us know if it cures the problem.

Also. After riding in the rain. Take the time to dry it off completly, including under the mat, and do it in a place other than where it will be parked for the night (avoids the puddle that will collect under it).

John Out.
"Live to glide, glide to live"


Could you spray WD40 on the battery plugs too or would that harm them?
Suzie

[smoother]

Im not an electrician, nor do I play one on TV. But I believe WD40 can be used on any electrical connector to dsplace moisture (probably not circuit boards or relays, etc). About those battery connectors: LLC designed the packs with nice gaskets around the battery posts.

For great protection from water ingress on the front pack (from riding in rain, it might help to seal the gap between the front battery and the body of the HT. A piece of tape, or for the adventurous, a bead of silicone. I'm giving it some thought myself.

John Out.
"Live to glide, glide to live"

[MrMike]

I have found that if you don't seat the key just right it will cause a hiccup with the software and you will be forced to take the handlebar off and unplug/replug the wires to reset and put you back in business. I used to have a rental business and this occurred often. It's a pain-in-the-*** when you have customers waiting; I wish they just had a re-set button on near the key area.

[Suzie]

quote:Originally posted by smoother

Im not an electrician, nor do I play one on TV. But I believe WD40 can be used on any electrical connector to dsplace water (probably not circuit boards or relays, etc). About those battery connectors: LLC designed the packs with nice gaskets around the battery posts.

For great protection from water ingress on the front pack (from riding in rain, it might help to seal the gap between the front battery and the body of the HT. A piece of tape, or for the adventurous, a bead of silicone. I'm giving it some thought myself.

John Out.
"Live to glide, glide to live"


But would you suggest removing the batteries and spraying them (top & bottom) with WD40? I've had my Segway shut off on me after going through several deep puddles and I had to remove the batteries to let them air dry before my Seg would start up again.

Thanks!

[smoother]

WD40 displaces moisture, not water (sorry about the inaccurate reference above, now fixed). If you are splashing through deep puddles, you have a water issue not a moisture issue. What do you call deep?

I can't see how water is getting past the seal around your battery terminals. Next time you have this problem, carefully remove and inspect the batteries to see if water is actually getting past that seal. If it is, you might want to build the seal up a little thicker by putting a thin bead of silicone directly on top of it. Let it dry b4 reinstalling the packs. This is just an idea, I have not done this myself so I cannot verify its success.

Here's another thought; slow down whilst going through puddles. After, all, you don't know what lurks beneath the surface. Rocks, pot holes, slippery slime, etc might all be waiting to throw you from your mount.

John Out.
"Live to glide, glide to live"

[Suzie]

quote:Originally posted by smoother

WD40 displaces moisture, not water. If you are splashing through deep puddles, you have a water issue not a moisture issue. What do you call deep?

I can't see how water is getting past the seal around your battery terminals. Next time you have this problem, carefully remove and inspect the batteries to see if water is actually getting past that seal. If it is, you might want to build the seal up a little thicker by putting a thin bead of silicone directly on top of it. Let it dry b4 reinstalling the packs. This is just an idea, I have not done this myself so I cannot verify its success.

Here's another thought; slow down whilst going through puddles. After, all, you don't know what lurks beneath the surface. Rocks, pot holes, slippery slime, etc might all be waiting to throw you from your mount.

John Out.
"Live to glide, glide to live"


Good advice - Thanks!

[SegwayUtah]

I remember an article that was posted a while ago that said the Segway HT was completely sealed and could be submerged in water for short periods of time (minutes, if I remember right) with no adverse side effects.

I also remember someone riding their HT in a swimming pool, just for fun.

I think these can both bring us understanding and wisdom: (a) that the HT is built to withstand some crazy stuff and (b) that we should never, ever ride around in a swimming pool :)

I mean, how do you keep the rider detect sensors depressed if you're being pulled toward the surface by the air in your lungs? ;)

Chris

[Suzie]

quote:Originally posted by SegwayUtah

I remember an article that was posted a while ago that said the Segway HT was completely sealed and could be submerged in water for short periods of time (minutes, if I remember right) with no adverse side effects.

I also remember someone riding their HT in a swimming pool, just for fun.

I think these can both bring us understanding and wisdom: (a) that the HT is built to withstand some crazy stuff and (b) that we should never, ever ride around in a swimming pool :)

I mean, how do you keep the rider detect sensors depressed if you're being pulled toward the surface by the air in your lungs? ;)

Chris


Sorry but the Segway CANNOT be submerged and if you read your manuals you will note that the company warns against submerging the machine. It can handle rain but should not be left in a downpour.

[Phil]

I can't fix the problem with what's causing the HT to need rebooting.
I do have a means to reboot the HT without having to remove the Control assembly.(takes 5 seconds and is not nearly as embarrassing) It will be with just a press of the HT button.
Fear not, there is no danger in shutting down the HT while riding.
More on this later,..
Thought this would be appropiate to let you all know what is in the works.


Phil Webb
"Cherry IT Driver"

[Suzie]

quote:Originally posted by Phil

I can't fix the problem with what's causing the HT to need rebooting.
I do have a means to reboot the HT without having to remove the Control assembly.(takes 5 seconds and is not nearly as embarrassing) It will be with just a press of the HT button.
Fear not, there is no danger in shutting down the HT while riding.
More on this later,..
Thought this would be appropiate to let you all know what is in the works.


Phil Webb
"Cherry IT Driver"




Try reseating the batteries. I find this to be a major hassel since those screws are so small etc., but once you remove the batteries and reconnect them you should be ok.
Good luck.

[ElectraGlide]

No matter what the manuals say, it's still my belief that water/moisture is NOT good for any electronics. And no matter how well sealed the Segway is when it comes new from the factory I will still not ride it in the rain, nor store it in a humid environment. Call me "over conservative", but the Segways cost too much to not take extra good care of them for their long term use.
If rain cannot be avoided, keep your key -port dry to avoid those start-nonstart attempts.

Steve

[Ground Loop]

I'm guessing the battery contacts are fine. (I remember seeing a video of a Segway LLC lab where they were riding around in axel-deep water as part of the obstacle course.)

The "Beep, I Ingore You" problem is well-documented and Just Happens. Segway LLC knows it happens but has never said they consider it a fault or are working on a solution.

The "Key Tap" method to reset the Segway is reported to have mixed results. I couldn't make it work, others did. It's random.

Disconnecting the CS cables was the appropriate thing to do.

A Quick-Release lever makes this much easier/faster, but no less annoying.

Something else you can try is to force a "Safety Shutdown/Restart" by wetting your thumb and index finger, then sticking your thumb in the key socket and the finger on the screw under the left handlebar. Works every time. I don't know if it unsticks the "Beep/Ignore" problem, but I intend to try it next time it happens.

[gotseg]

Phil, ya beat me to it! But its a great idea. The look on peoples faces when you have to take your segway apart has got to be nerve racking!

http://www.giguphosting.com/gotseg/gotseg.gif

[SegwayUtah]

Dang it, I'm trying to search on the Recall system over at the Wayback machine, and it's busy.

Anyway, there was an article a while back about putting Segways on boats, and a spokesperson from Segway said that they were designed to withstand submersion in water for minutes at a time.

Or something like that. Anyway, I would _not_ recommend submerging your Segway in water. Especially salt or dirty water. I imagine that everything would probably operate perfectly fine, but you might get condensation later on--or who knows, water might even leak in. And it will probably void a consumer HT warranty.

But I would not worry one bit about riding the HT in the rain. Well, other than watching for slick spots and going slow through puddles.

Now lightning may be another story entirely :)

Chris

[ronzul]

My worst reboot experience so far...

STORY

A week ago... foreign city... midnight... dark alley... decide to switch from yellow key (my standard), to red key (just in case I encounter a situation that requires extra speed). The area I was in was not dangerous, probably a little seedy, but being in a foreign city in a foreign country, didn't really know the parameters.

Anyway, hopped off, turn the machine off, and quickly (oops), put in the red key! Oh no... no... waited a full 10 minutes without touching the machine and tried again... nothing... tried the rapid tap method without any success.

Unfortunately, I am unable to dismantle the machine by myself and require help. My friends had already left earlier that evening and I was somewhat stranded. So I started asking strangers for help, waiting until "nice" looking ones appeared.

The first guy refused, and after a little while a couple passed by and decided to help. Obviously very suspicious, he lifting up the control shaft, she stepping on the base so that it would not move, and me disconnecting and reconnecting wires. They left immediately after it started working -- still suspicious.

I was quite upset, perhaps even more so for them -- putting people into a situation where they are naturally concerned and suspicious is not pleasant.

ACTION

1. I just sent an e-mail to Segway LLC about the situation. The particular request is to give more information about the rapid tap method of rebooting. Although I tried for a long time, using different tap rates, I don't know if I was doing it correctly. The FAQ on the Segway web site should say what rate the tap is required.

2. Let's get some feedback about Ground Loop's suggestion of:

Something else you can try is to force a "Safety Shutdown/Restart" by wetting your thumb and index finger, then sticking your thumb in the key socket and the finger on the screw under the left handlebar.

3. Phil's post above indicates a possible solution in the works. However, I am somewhat reluctant to insert any circuitry within the control shaft. Although competent engineers can produce a solution, there is no way that we can test it in the harsh physical environment that our Segways are used in.

If I was using my Segway in a warehouse all day, no problem, but how can we test a solution sufficient thoroughly?

(maybe I should rephrase this... hi phil... that's great you are working on a solution... how can we test your solution so that we can have complete confidence that it will survive the physical environment and not have any undesirable impact on the Segway?)

4. I was thinking about a mechanical solution that makes it easier to dismantle the Segway by oneself. I was thinking of some worm gear that can be used to make detching and reattaching the control shaft easier. If anyone wants to brainstorm this, please let me know.

I'm not particularly mechanically oriented, so any ideas/help would be appreciated.

Cheers
Ronny

---
Who said that you shouldn't get carried away on your Segway?

[Phil]

quote:Originally posted by ronzul

My worst reboot experience so far...

STORY

A week ago... foreign city... midnight... dark alley... decide to switch from yellow key (my standard), to red key (just in case I encounter a situation that requires extra speed). The area I was in was not dangerous, probably a little seedy, but being in a foreign city in a foreign country, didn't really know the parameters.

Anyway, hopped off, turn the machine off, and quickly (oops), put in the red key! Oh no... no... waited a full 10 minutes without touching the machine and tried again... nothing... tried the rapid tap method without any success.

Unfortunately, I am unable to dismantle the machine by myself and require help. My friends had already left earlier that evening and I was somewhat stranded. So I started asking strangers for help, waiting until "nice" looking ones appeared.

The first guy refused, and after a little while a couple passed by and decided to help. Obviously very suspicious, he lifting up the control shaft, she stepping on the base so that it would not move, and me disconnecting and reconnecting wires. They left immediately after it started working -- still suspicious.

I was quite upset, perhaps even more so for them -- putting people into a situation where they are naturally concerned and suspicious is not pleasant.

ACTION

1. I just sent an e-mail to Segway LLC about the situation. The particular request is to give more information about the rapid tap method of rebooting. Although I tried for a long time, using different tap rates, I don't know if I was doing it correctly. The FAQ on the Segway web site should say what rate the tap is required.

2. Let's get some feedback about Ground Loop's suggestion of:

Something else you can try is to force a "Safety Shutdown/Restart" by wetting your thumb and index finger, then sticking your thumb in the key socket and the finger on the screw under the left handlebar.

3. Phil's post above indicates a possible solution in the works. However, I am somewhat reluctant to insert any circuitry within the control shaft. Although competent engineers can produce a solution, there is no way that we can test it in the harsh physical environment that our Segways are used in.

If I was using my Segway in a warehouse all day, no problem, but how can we test a solution sufficient thoroughly?

(maybe I should rephrase this... hi phil... that's great you are working on a solution... how can we test your solution so that we can have complete confidence that it will survive the physical environment and not have any undesirable impact on the Segway?)

4. I was thinking about a mechanical solution that makes it easier to dismantle the Segway by oneself. I was thinking of some worm gear that can be used to make detching and reattaching the control shaft easier. If anyone wants to brainstorm this, please let me know.

I'm not particularly mechanically oriented, so any ideas/help would be appreciated.

Cheers
Ronny

---
Who said that you shouldn't get carried away on your Segway?


Ronny,...
I'm glad you asked.
While I can't go into a lot of detail at the moment, I can say that "Worst Case Scenario", If the bottom falls out of my "module" (which we will put through the ringer to make sure that it passes all testing)
The HT would simply go into the "Safety Shutdown Mode".
I have other features that will be availible with this module that will also be very helpful.
Stay tuned !



Phil Webb
"Cherry IT Driver"

[ronzul]

Hi Phil

Thanks for the update. I understand that you don't want to give too many details of the moment, but can you mention what sort of timeframe you are looking at for coming up with a solution? Do you have a prototype already? I assume that this will be a commercial venture for you... can you mention what sort of price range you are looking at?

This will help me decide if I should bother with a mechanical solution or not (i.e. one which will make it easy enough for me to detach and reattach the control shaft by myself).

Regards
Ronny

---
Who said that you shouldn't get carried away on your Segway?

[Murray Fisher]

My experience with the "start" key socket. It got wet a couple times and would not start. I dried it out with my hanky and it started right up. Since then I have carried a short piece of black electricians tape and stick it on the handlebar and flip it over the socket if it looks like rain. It SHOULD have had a little snap over cover! I have had my Seg going on 10 months and only one time needed to take the control shaft off. That was within a couple months of having the rig. I complained about a minor cosmetic problem with the Seg and they sent me a whole new shaft and handlebars. I have never had it fail since....I wonder if some change has been made.

Murray Fisher

[Phil]

quote:Originally posted by ronzul

Hi Phil

Thanks for the update. I understand that you don't want to give too many details of the moment, but can you mention what sort of timeframe you are looking at for coming up with a solution? Do you have a prototype already? I assume that this will be a commercial venture for you... can you mention what sort of price range you are looking at?

This will help me decide if I should bother with a mechanical solution or not (i.e. one which will make it easy enough for me to detach and reattach the control shaft by myself).

Regards
Ronny

---
Who said that you shouldn't get carried away on your Segway?



Ronny,
The "module" has several other features that are being included along with the "Reboot". This is the reason that it is taking a little longer than antcipated.
I'm working on getting the first prototype by the middle of the month for testing on the HT.

Price has not been determined as of yet.

You will want to wait till I get the first prototype checked out and all the logic functioning properly.
There is more than 6 other features that will be availible on the first release.
If you can just hang in there a little longer, I feel that you will not be disappointed.


Phil Webb
"Cherry IT Driver"

[ronzul]

Well Phil

I'm impressed... I don't think I can even guess what the other 6 features are!

Good luck



---
Who said that you shouldn't get carried away on your Segway?

[Ground Loop]

In the meantime, Segway's own Quick Release bolt at least lets you remove the control shaft without a 5mm wrench. You can find it in their online accessory store.

Of course, if you frequently lock up your HT, it also lets anyone else remove your control shaft easily...

I would second the request that Segway LLC explain the "tap reset" method in much more detail. It seems important to know, and I can't make it work. (Of course, a real fix for this problem would be even more welcomed.)

[stevew]

My guess is that this beep-no-start bug resides in the handlebar/cs itself, hence can't be fixed by a software update. My evidence, when I received my first replacement handlebar after my problem with rain I started getting beep-no-start more and more often until basically it wouldn't start at all even after reconnecting CS cables, If I was very persistent the key tap method would eventually start it, but the next start it would be dead again, After receiving a third CS from LLC(about 3 months) ago I haven't had a non-start since.

[ronzul]

Hi Steve

Was your new control shaft, the new model with the blue mode switch (I don't know how else to distinguish it)?

---
Who said that you shouldn't get carried away on your Segway?

[stevew]

Nope, just the standard one with the red button, seems identical to the one it replaced.
Steve

[Florida Ever-Glides]

I have to re-boot one of my HT's almost every day for one reason or another. The tapping method only works sometimes. Now, I resort to politely asking it to turn on. I'm sure sometime in the near future this problem will be a thing of the past.

Tom Jacobson

[pam]

I can really recommend the quick-release bolt, here. I had one of those beep-no starts yesterday during a training. First one in AGES. Took just a second to fix it. The second was was because I was trying to start the 'i' with the 'p' key - DUH. But that's a different message on the display icon.
Pam

[ronzul]

No reboots for three weeks, and then two today. Both times the machine had been off for a number of hours, disconnected the power cord, attempted to start... nothing but a boring beep!

V. annoying

So Phil, any update? I know you don't want to say too much technically, but will your module simulate both cables being disconnected? Also, will you approach Segway LLC about your device? I doubt they would you any sort of formal approval, but they may be interested, and may give some advice.

---
Who said that you shouldn't get carried away on your Segway?

[Phil]

quote:Originally posted by ronzul

No reboots for three weeks, and then two today. Both times the machine had been off for a number of hours, disconnected the power cord, attempted to start... nothing but a boring beep!

V. annoying

So Phil, any update? I know you don't want to say too much technically, but will your module simulate both cables being disconnected? Also, will you approach Segway LLC about your device? I doubt they would you any sort of formal approval, but they may be interested, and may give some advice.

---
Who said that you shouldn't get carried away on your Segway?



ronzul,

Yes the Module will simulate both cables being disconnected.
This particular feature of the module has been tested manually by us using controlled relays, so we know that it works. And if we were just building a Printed Circuit board that handled that only, we would be through with it. I know that this does not help you here and now, but I'm wanting to keep from having to build more than 1 PCB, especially with the other features in the works.
I'll put together a list soon of all (most) added features that will be availible on this release.
I have approached LLC informally with the "Remote Safety Shutdown" and there is no interest what so ever. It is company policy that will not allow me to get through to anyone who could make a decision.
I think the world of LLC , but something happens when a company gets to a certain size where they have to accept fit into "large corporate thinking" where they cannot listen to (in my opinion) a great idea. I mean pulling a nylon string to simulate the Safety Shutdown, instead of pushing a button on a remote keyfob, how could that not be better. The HT being used would not have to be altered and could be used for all trainers in the field, Bedford, Disney etc,..
If you can wait, i'd like to get you one of the first testing units (after we test here) to try out in the field.
It seems that you are having a fit with the REBOOT problem.
I'll stay in contact,...

Phil Webb
"Cherry IT Driver"

[pam]

In some defense of LLC here, (you all knew I would, right?) - not taking "ideas" from people outside the company may be very much like my favorite author, who has an internet fan list. We had people speculate all day long on potential story lines, but she can't use them, due to copyright issues. She ultimately had to ask us to give some indication in the subject line because, bottom line, she has been advised by her attornies not to even read them. All Segway would need is someone to suggest an "upgrade" and then sue the pants off of LLC for "stealing" their idea.

Not to say that Phil is the type that would, but in this litigious society, it's just safer not to play than to try to figure out who it's safe to play with.

JMHO, BTW, I have no access to LLC's legal team or their decision making policy.

Pam