Next Challenges!

[BenBethel]

FINALLY we've taken care of the problem that Segways are $5K out of pocket now that financing is really more available - $75/mo for the p series, $85/mo for the i series... this is really what will get the public moving on these things. After all, people finance waverunners and boats and other things that they use about 10 hours a year for more money each month!

That's one goal down. Next goals/challenges!

1) Get Segways approved as medical devices... this must happen this year, it will be a great catalyst and could totally negate current state/city laws against them if people with mobility issues start using them! Hell, if the iBot can go on two wheels anywhere, then this can too! Who do we contact, what are the names/addresses/emails - let's get a campaign together to get this done - a few hundred requests can and will change things!

2) Get rid of the 'expensive' image - we need more comparisons to the cost of a laptop, car, cellphone, parking, etc. out there!

3) Get rid of the 'lazy/wasteful' image - we need some research that shows for an hour of usage this burns as many calories as walking an hour, and you cover more ground. I truly believe this, because after an hour of riding, I've been bending my knees, working my calves, my legs, and even my upper body (back/arms/abs) seems to get a workout from pulling and pushing, although not much. It at least burns a hell of a lot more calories than sitting behind the wheel of a car! Can anyone help me calculate this - I know it's hard, but it's gotta be true!

Ben

www.benbethel.com

[W9GFO]

quote:Originally posted by BenBethel


1) Get Segways approved as medical devices...

If my understanding is correct, this will NEVER happen. The Segway was developed using balancing technology from the Ibot. DK retained license of that technology for all non medical applications.

Maybe J&J will want to make a medical HT? I doubt it.

Rich H

[statmed]

I think a study to see that the calorie burn rate per hour would be quite interesting.

While it is probably not quite or even close to walking, I think it would be enough to shut alot of people up and make them think outside the box.

It will definitely make for a nice comeback the next time some wiseguy sitting on his bum in his car calls any of us lazy.




H.M. Stern
statmed@optonline.net

I Love It When A Plan Comes Together (Hannibal Smith)

[BenBethel]

Yes, but why can't the PUBLIC start requesting approval? If a device starts being used by hundreds of mobility challenged individuals, then it must be working, right? If it's basically the same damn thing as the ibot, but without a "chair" attached to it, then again, it should be approved...

Ben

www.benbethel.com

[BenBethel]

When walking, I'm not using my arms too much, and my legs are supporting my weight with each step but my legs are locked at each step to save energy, like most humans.

When segging, my legs are always bent and never locked, using a lot more energy, plus every second or two I'm hitting some sort of bump and bending my legs - just like doing 'mini-squats'. Add to this the fact that every few seconds I seem to be pulling using my arms, back, and abs to slow down and then using my calves to lean again to speed up.

I can walk for an hour with ease and not feel really tired or feel much muscle fatigue or even feel thirsty... but after an hour of riding the Segway I'm truly parched and when I step off I can totally feel it in my legs and calves.

As far as my physical condition goes, I'm pretty fit and go to a trainer 3-4 times a week!

We should really look into this. I, for one, am going to start telling people that it's equivalent to walking, calorie-wise, hour-for-hour, and show them how I'm using my muscles.

I'd love to get more evidence on this, then get some press releases out - imagine it, "Coming up on News 3 at 5pm, Segways, and how riding one is actually good for your health!"

This would spawn a lot of sales!

Ben

www.benbethel.com

[Mr_Laurenzano]

I got number Three.
Give me a month.
I need 5 case study individuals between the ages of 21-45 Male or female. any takers???

Find the way. Everything comes full circle.

[W9GFO]

quote:Originally posted by BenBethel

Yes, but why can't the PUBLIC start requesting approval? If a device starts being used by hundreds of mobility challenged individuals, then it must be working, right? If it's basically the same damn thing as the ibot, but without a "chair" attached to it, then again, it should be approved...

Ben

www.benbethel.com



I would rather see it treated the same way as other scooters, like these;

http://www.hoveround.com/scooters.html


None of those scooters are FDA approved yet they are allowed everywhere. Even theme parks is mentioned in their ad.

Why should Segways be "approved" when these other devices are not?

Rich H

[SegwayUtah]

Ben,

There is one huge difference between the iBOT and the Segway:
* the iBOT has 4 wheels

Yes, it can go up on two wheels, and people seem to prefer riding around that way. But when it's walking up and down stairs, it's using 4 wheels. And the kicker: if it runs into trouble, it falls back onto all fours for safety.

Also, I believe that FDA approval costs _millions_ of dollars. Besides, the Segway does not need to be approved by the FDA unless doctors want to prescribe it as a "medical device." As an assistive device it's already kosher.

On the calories, light walking and Segway riding really don't differ too much calorie-wise. Brisk walking would beat a Segway rider, and a Segway rider would beat someone sitting down by a ways.

Here are some numbers for you:
http://www.foodanddiet.com/NewFiles/calorieburnchart.html

[u]Calories per hour (by activity)</u>
Sleeping: 55 Cal/hr.
Sitting: 85 Cal/hr.
Standing: 100 Cal/hr.
Driving: 110 Cal/hr.
Downhill Skiing: 450 Cal/hr.
Bicycling (Vigorous): 450 Cal/hr.
Power Walking: 600 Cal/hr.

I find it interesting that downhill skiing and vigorous bicycling are pretty similar.

Anyway, the difference between sitting and driving is 35 Cal/hr. Riding a Segway requires at least that much energy, plus you're standing. At a minimum, then, riding a Segway should burn something like 100 Cal for standing + 35 Cal for "driving" = &gt;135 Cal/hr.

Riding a Segway is like light skiing, which even if we figured that at 200 Cal/hr. vs. 450 Cal/hr. for "downhill skiing" puts Segway riding near the 200 Cal./hr mark. Even at a range of 135 - 200 Calories an hour, the Segway isn't vigorous exercise, but it's similar to casual walking.

Findings: Riding a Segway is much more healthy than sitting in a car.

Chris

[BenBethel]

I agree that Segging is a lot like skiing in the motions being done - and a lot of my friends seem to say "gosh, this reminds me of skiing/snowboarding", especially with the stress on the calves, legs, arms, etc and bounce-bounce-bouncing all the time!

Look at the difference between sitting and driving - 85/110 calories per hour, just for turning your head and moving your arms slightly. I'd be we could easily prove 280 calories per hour, the same as walking!

I'll be a case study person if needed - I just don't know how this is measured!

www.benbethel.com

[BenBethel]

I just emailed this to the folks at the website for how many calories are burned each hour...

I’m trying to figure out how many calories are burned while riding on a Segway (www.segway.com) Human Transporter, those self-balancing scooters that everyone calls “lazy”. I own two, and they’re perfect as a car replacement and for people with disabilities.

I find that after an hour of riding, I’m fatigued, and I go to a personal trainer 3-4 times per week! Here’s my reasoning:

1) You’re always standing, but with your knees bent.
2) Every few seconds you’re hitting bumps so you’re putting stress on your leg/butt/calf muscles, like doing a ‘mini-squat’.
3) Every few seconds you’re turning, which is working your abs, obliques, shoulder, back, arms.
4) Every few seconds you’re slowing down, putting stress on your legs, arms, shoulders, back, etc.
5) Every few seconds you’re speeding up again, putting stress on your calves.
6) The ‘excitement’ factor of being stared at by people and really paying attention to your surroundings causes my heart-rate to go up, so for this alone I’m burning more calories…

How do you calculate this? I’m on a discussion group for Segways with about 2,000 people and we think it’s slightly more of a workout than casual walking for an hour, and we cover more distance without polluting the air, spending a fortune on cabs/cars, and don’t take up parking spaces for other people!

After an hour, I’m really thirsty and I can feel the burn in my legs for sure.

Would it be safe to assume that it’s about 350 calories per hour?

I’m very interested in this, so please help – I’d be most appreciative!


Sincerely,
Ben Bethel
www.benbethel.com



www.benbethel.com

[W9GFO]

quote:Originally posted by BenBethel

I'd be we could easily prove 280 calories per hour, the same as walking!

I'll be a case study person if needed - I just don't know how this is measured!

www.benbethel.com



I'm confident that a study would show that the average Segger burns as many or more calories per hour than a walker. We just get better calories per mile.

The argument for walking to the corner store still stands. The errand will consume more calories if you walk due to the longer time it takes.

Rich H

[Segway City]

1) Get Segways approved as medical devices

Not going to happen because of a myriad of issues from self-competition to return on investment to lack of need. The device can be used as-is to comply with any ADA based need, except in very rare circumstances.

2) Get rid of the 'expensive' image

That's the job of LLC's marketing department. I don't care that some people think I'm on a $10K device, or that others think it's too expensive if over $500. Few I've spoken to have flinched when told $3500 will buy a used HT, but the price is supply and demand driven. LLC will have to get the price down before the supply will rise; or a Chinese knock-off will have to pressure them to lose profit in favor of market share.

3) Get rid of the 'lazy/wasteful' image

A very successful image campaign by bicycle/fitness folks. Hard to counter that when absolutely -no- in-context use of HTs is seen beyond 30 seconds on Frasier or 20 seconds of USPS news. If they were advertised, they'd sell more and they'd be accepted more across the spectrum. Along with the new color schemes about to be introduced, LLC will change the image of the HT. Or, alternatively, it could all backfire and they become the "New Coke" of this decade.

Most of these issues are going to have to be addressed by the new marketing folks at LLC and, from the rumblings heard from that general direction, they are actively pursuing them. My prediction is that within a year there will be an established hodgepodge network of dealers encompassing everything from rental shops to medical supply houses to electronics places offering HTs at retail. That will change the way the world perceives the HT.

[ions82]

I've heard more than one person say that the Seg will just make people lazy. It's ridiculous. As for the medical approval thing..... I don't think they SHOULD be approved. I have a disability and could easily get one if they were an approved medical device. However, I have no doubt that the price would go up significantly. EVERYTHING that is a medical device has an incredible mark-up. The rubber air cushion that I use on my wheelchair is nothing but a bunch of inner-connected rubber bubbles. However, medical supply places have no problem selling them for $450. They probably cost $20 to manufacture. All the insurance that LLC would have to have would also drive the cost up. Medical supply companies can get whatever they want for equipment because the payment almost always comes from the buyer's insurance company. My guess is that they would end up retailing between $8000-$10000 dollars. Eight at a place that isn't medical supply. 10 from med. supply dealers. At that price, no one would be opening their wallet to buy one. I think that time and improvement to the range/batteries will be the biggest booster of sales.

[Uki]

Could you point me in the direction of where your seeing those kinda financing numbers? I've been thinking about doing a personal loan for the segway, but if I can get financing that would be great. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

[BenBethel]

Wow - I didn't know that about prices... yet one disturbing trend is seeing places allow those $299 scooters from pep-boys (not the q-scooter, but the really cheap ones that tip over easily) while not allowing a segway... they see something that resembles a device for the disabled and allow it, while not allowing something much more reliable and safe into their property... silly folks.

Ben

www.benbethel.com

[NLKotter]

The Segway won't be approved as a medical device. That term carries great significance to the FDA - it's not a term to be thrown about casually. The iBot is what's called a class III medical device - that's the most stringent classification there is and is assigned based on the type of device, not chosen by the manufacturer.

Because of the class III designation, there are myriad controls (e.g., processes and procedures) that must be in place before, during and after the product development process. Segway product development didn't occur with these controls in place.

Then there's the whole FDA approval process, which involves the manufacturer demonstrating compliance to appropriate federal regulations, rigorous clinical trials and an extremely careful scientific review of the device design to ensure that the device is safe and effective. All of this takes careful planning and lots of time and money.

My opinions only - but they're based on years of experience in medical device quality assurance and compliance...

Nancy

[BenBethel]

Nancy, these all seem to be things done before a device is released to the public, like the ibot... but what happens after several years of use in real-world environments by persons with disabilities? It seems to be simple common sense to say "hey, this thing really works, so it gets our stamp of approval"... their job should be to open up the world to people so that they can get around it without discrimination, not to secure their own jobs and hold things back from being used by those who can use them the most.

How depressing it is to hear all of this! No wonder such things are so horrendously expensive for the disabled.

So, the FDA should be the agency to contact, yes? I wonder how I could get some names. I could get the folks at www.actforchange.com to get a cool two or three million faxes and emails sent to the FDA and organize a few demonstrations on Segways on their steps... if it could work for AIDS drugs, it could work for the Segway!

In the meantime, a lot of people are probably homebound or waiting for dial-a-ride who shouldn't be.

Ben

www.benbethel.com

[Segway City]

Hmmmm, brings to mind a mental picture of Don Quixote tilting at windmills...

or famous Don astride a Segway jousting with an FDA agent.

[terryp]

quote:Originally posted by BenBethel

3) Get rid of the 'lazy/wasteful' image - we need some research that shows for an hour of usage this burns as many calories as walking an hour, and you cover more ground. I truly believe this, because after an hour of riding, I've been bending my knees, working my calves, my legs, and even my upper body (back/arms/abs) seems to get a workout from pulling and pushing, although not much. It at least burns a hell of a lot more calories than sitting behind the wheel of a car! Can anyone help me calculate this - I know it's hard, but it's gotta be true!

Ben

www.benbethel.com

Gliding may be more exercise than driving, but it's certainly way less than walking. A brisk walk on a treadmill will have you starting to sweat in 15 minutes. Ever break a sweat on a Segway? If your legs are tired after an hour's glide, they probably would be after just standing still for the same length of time.

Even if you could prove that gliding was equivalent to walking, what good would that information be? If you're looking for ammunition to counter the 'fat' remarks, those people don't deserve a response. More and more I'm getting to the point where I ignore everyone while gliding UNLESS someone shows an interest, in which case they're likely to get offered a demo.

I agree that financing should help sell Segs, but only if people have a way to find out that financing is available. How's that going to happen without advertising?

Practicing safe Segs in Seattle

[Murray Fisher]

While we are trying to get Segway's approved by the FDA, lets add another important vehicle to the approval......automobiles!!

Murray Fisher

[Terence]

While on the subject of qualifying as a "medical device," has anyoone given consideration, or perhaps even gotten a ruling, on deducting the cost of the Segway in filing with the IRS.

As many of you have, I am sure, I have a prescription from my doctor. I am planning on submitting it on my tax form and see what they say. After all, if a mechanized wheel chair can be deducted, why not a Human Transporter.

My hope now is that I don't blow up my Turbo Tax program!

[ZoliHonig]

Where can you get financing like that?
I'm very interested.


[8]-Zoli[8]

[fredkap]

Terrence - If you are using your Seg as a mobility device for a disability than you can deduct it in full in the year that you purchased it.
"The entire cost of special equipment used to mitigate the effects of a physical impairment is also deductible."
Medical expenses must exceed 7.5% of your AGI to receive any benefit.

My malpractice insurance does not cover advice to non-clients, please check with your own tax advisor.

Fred K CPA

[SegwayUtah]

Zoli,

Just call up DCU (www.dcu.org) to get a $75/mo. (p-series) or $85/mo. (i-series) loan. If you have good credit, it could be even less.

From what I understand, most students probably even qualify for the loan.

Chris

[ZoliHonig]

O sorry I missed the other post.


[8]-Zoli[8]