Disney World won't talk to me!

[jrmiller]

Greetings, I have just spent the last 45 minutes trying to talk to someone at WDW Orlando. My frustration level became rather high. After redialing 4 times after being disconnected, I finally reached a real person who was as helpful as he could be. I attemped to contact a real person in Special Needs as to the usage of HT's in the park and this gentleman relayed the following information. Special Needs would not talk to me and he was not able to give a direct TX number into that department. He advised that they would not talk to me and that I would have to write them a letter for information. The message from Special Needs was that the HT's are NOT allowed in the parks....period! End of disscusion, for more information write them at:

WDW Communications
PO Box 10040
Lake Buena Vista
FL 32830-00440

or try the e-mail:

wdw.guest.communications@disneyworld.com

It seem rather ironic that someone with special needs would not be permitted direct access at least by phone to someone at Disney World for a policy explination. Isn't Disney suppost to be "user friendly" and welcome people to the Kingdom no matter what their needs?

Oh yes, check my other post re: Behind the scenes tours at EPCOT on HT's !!!!

[ftropea]

Reposted from original thread (To correct issue that original post was done as an "event" instead of a "new topic"):

Disney World Update, ...won't talk to me

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Topic author: jrmiller
Subject: Disney World Update, ...won't talk to me
Posted on: Jan 30 2004 09:41:53 AM
Message:


Greetings, I have just spent the last 45 minutes trying to talk to someone at WDW Orlando. My frustration level became rather high. After redialing 4 times after being disconnected, I finally reached a real person who was as helpful as he could be. I attemped to contact a real person in Special Needs as to the usage of HT's in the park and this gentleman relayed the following information. Special Needs would not talk to me and he was not able to give a direct TX number into that department. He advised that they would not talk to me and that I would have to write them a letter for information. The message from Special Needs was that the HT's are NOT allowed in the parks....period! End of disscusion, for more information write them at:

WDW Communications
PO Box 10040
Lake Buena Vista
FL 32830-00440

or try the e-mail:

wdw.guest.communications@disneyworld.com

It seem rather ironic that someone with special needs would not be permitted direct access at least by phone to someone at Disney World for a policy explination. Isn't Disney suppost to be "user friendly" and welcome people to the Kingdom no matter what their needs?

Oh yes, check my other post re: Behind the scenes tours at EPCOT on HT's !!!!

Replies:



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Reply author: ElectraGlide
Replied on: Jan 30 2004 10:37:40 AM
Message:

Disney is a large corporation that looks at their bottom line. They may listen if you tell them you, your family , and friends will not attend their parks until you get a satisfactory answer. Good luck trying to get in touch by phone with a real human being!
Their mascot is a rodent isnt it ???

Steve


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Reply author: NEVrland
Replied on: Jan 30 2004 11:39:00 AM
Message:

The policy: Disney will be more then happy to loan the visitor a wheelchair or mobility stroller, they will hold on to yours for no charge during you visit at a park.

It would make the parks much to dangerous if they allowed other machines in side the park.

Keith Albrizzi NEVrland, Inc. Relay Transportation 407-566-0911 Segway Service, Sales and Rentals


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Reply author: SegwayBill
Replied on: Jan 30 2004 12:13:00 PM
Message:

I went thru this last March. They talked to me,but it didn,t help and paid $40 to rent a slow powerchair.

Bill


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Reply author: QuadSquad
Replied on: Jan 30 2004 1:07:37 PM
Message:


quote:
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Originally posted by NEVrland

The policy: Disney will be more then happy to loan the visitor a wheelchair or mobility stroller, they will hold on to yours for no charge during you visit at a park.

It would make the parks much to dangerous if they allowed other machines in side the park.

Keith Albrizzi NEVrland, Inc. Relay Transportation 407-566-0911 Segway Service, Sales and Rentals

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Well this is a very disturbing comment! Especially from one who is a segway dealer and purports to be a supporter. Perhaps Keith you can explain to me exactly how this makes it dangerous!

There is absolutely no question that anyone can do anything to anyone wants to, at least initially. There's no question in my mind that Disney is in violation of the ADA. This also is absolutely no question in my mind that unless someone is prepared to litigate against them then they can continue to violate the ADA. In the near future some of us who have disabilities and use segway's will gather together and attempt to do something about this. For those of you who have interest in participating please feel free to contact me by e-mail.

However, in the meantime I can assure you that I will no longer be recommending NEVrland as a source to buy an HT from. Clearly if you have that little faith in the device you shouldn't be distributing or selling them.


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Reply author: verbl800
Replied on: Jan 30 2004 2:55:29 PM
Message:

We've all heard the ADA argument before, but unfortunately, it doesn't look like the ADA covers the Seg. Evidence towards this point of view include the fact that although wheelchairs are mentioned as assistive devices within the ADA text, Segways are not, as well as the fact that LLC has made it clear that the Segway is *NOT* considered medical device/aid.

Disney World/Land is private property and may do as they wish, provided they are within the confines of legality.

This is probably the same issue as the mall issue in another thread above this one. More than likely, Disney allowing the Seg into their premises would constitute a liability risk that they, along with their insurance provider, do not wish to maintain.


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Reply author: QuadSquad
Replied on: Jan 30 2004 3:01:32 PM
Message:

Verbl,you are completely wrong and completely uninformed and ignorant of the ADA. I would be happy to debate this with you publicly. Please feel free to document your position. I'm prepared to document mine!


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Reply author: verbl800
Replied on: Jan 30 2004 3:25:27 PM
Message:


Title III, Sec 36.301(b) allows venues to "impose legitimate safety requirements" based on actual risk. It seems the banning of the Seg would be defended by this reg.

101-336, Sec 227(a) refers to accomodating disabled persons by altering current structures: "...in such a manner that, to the maximum extent feasible, the altered portions of the facility are readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities, including individuals who use wheelchairs...". Note the lack of the phrase "and those who use Segways as well".

Seems to me to be one of the grey-area matters that lacks legal precedent. Are you aware of any legal precedent that might be applicable to weather a venue need allow the Segway in under the ADA? Let's try to avoid being as aggresive as you were in your last post if at all possible.




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[QuadSquad]

Verbl,
this is not the first time you have enlightened us with your perception of what the ADA says and doesn't say.

The courts have held that venues can impose bans for legitimate safety concerns.
They have also held that those concerns must be real and not imagined. In the instance of a segway any safety concerns would be imagined.

The ADA makes references to many things, but there are many things that it does not make reference to, and I'm talking about the statute not interpretations by others. It doesn't mention canes or crutches or service animals, do you suggest that then people utilizing them for legitimate purposes could be banned? In truth a person utilizing a service animals could be required to remove that service animal if it posed an actual threat to the safety of another patron. That ban would be specific to that particular service animal and they could then not ban another service animal from entering the premises one minute later. In other words the actions of one would not penalize others.

In 1990 the Americans with Disabilities Act was signed into law. It extended to people with disabilities Civil Rights similar to those available on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin and religion and prohibits discrimination on the basis of disability in the private sector and in state and local governments, public accommodations and services, including transportation, provided by public and private entities. The language contained in the ADA statute is clear with regard to protections afforded to individuals with disabilities,the protections are inclusive of those individuals utilizing wheelchairs, not exclusive to them.

The ADA was crafted in a manner so that people with disabilities could take advantage of future technology that would improve their quality of life, and improve their ability to take part in all the public activities enjoyed by every citizen of this country.

The United States Supreme Court has held, that a broad reading of the ADA is necessary in order to remain consistent "with the literal text of the statute as well as its expansive purpose [of] Title III's coverage."

The ADA sets forth that: “no individual shall be discriminated against on the basis of disability and the full and equal enjoyment of goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation by any person who owns, leases (the leases to), or operates a place of public accommodation.” When the ADA says "full and equal enjoyment" in many instances that prospect would include standing.

[jrmiller]

Greetings to all. This is the mesage that I sent to WDW requesting information on their policy towards Segways in the Kingdom:


To Whom It May Concern
Dear Sir/Madame, I have been planning a trip to the Orlando area and would like information and policy of WDW on mobility devices permitted in the Kingdom and theme parks. I have Parkinsons Disease and have difficulty walking. I do not use a wheelchair device as per my Neurologist insructions but rely upon a Segway HT for my mobility device. I would like to know the policy of WDW as to the use of this device in the theme parks and surrounding facilities. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Respectfully, JR Miller

If anyone would like to contact them also, post or email me if the prior provided information is not sufficient.

[verbl800]

quote:Originally posted by QuadSquad


The ADA makes references to many things, but there are many things that it does not make reference to, and I'm talking about the statute not interpretations by others. It doesn't mention canes or crutches or service animals, do you suggest that then people utilizing them for legitimate purposes could be banned?




It does indeed mention canes, crutches, and has what appears to entire paragraphs dedicated to service animals.

Can you point to any legal precedent for a non-standard device being allowed under the ADA?

Analogous/hypothetical question: if a disabled person(s) decides that a motor scooter is the best method for overcoming their disabling condition, should motor scooters be allowed in Disney World, covered under the ADA?

Just to be clear: it is my firm belief that Segways should be allowed in Disney World. For everyone. Especially when there a disabled person wishes to use it as a mobility aid. Whether that use would be covered under the ADA is another issue...

QuadSquad - you obviously know far more than I do, so there is no real point in arguing. However, I will say that I can't imagine Disney would be violation of the ADA considering the civil liability they would have. I'm fairly certain their decision to disallow Segways would have been researched by their coporate legal staff.

[verbl800]

Out of curiosity's sake, I called the DOJ's ADA Technical Assistance line @ 800-514-0301. I was told by the technical support rep that the ADA did not specifically cover the Segway (nor as QuadSquad pointed out, is any device). She said that to determine coverage under the ADA, legal precedent would need to be set, in so far as that someone would need to file a complaint with the DOJ and/or civil suit before that determination would be made. Although that has not yet occured, the fact that the Segway device was made illegal in some parts of the US would make the issue even murkier, as it would then allow the venue to ban the Segway on the grounds of unacceptable risk according the woman I spoke to.

Basically, until legal precedent has been set, there is no clear cut coverage of the Segway under the ADA according to the DOJ.

[SegwayUtah]

Is DisneyWorld banning people in iBOTs? Are they making them switch over to a manual or electronic wheelchair, and give up any custom padding they might have on thier iBOT which is necessary for them?

What is the difference between an iBOT up on 2 wheels and a Segway up on 2 wheels?

Then again, some people might not consider the iBOT a wheelchair, since it has 6 wheels, or 4 wheels, or 2 wheels, depending on its mode and a persons's though patterns ;)

As far as safety goes, the safety of a motor scooter in pedestrian traffic and the safety of a Segway HT in pedestrian traffic are worlds apart.

The Segway HT was not "designed, manufactured, or intended" as a medical device (or however that goes). However, many, _many_ things are used as assistive technologies, and it appears that in some cases Segway HT use has been doctor-recommended (as a non-medical-device) as an assistive/mobility device for persons right here on this board.

Quad, I hope to meet up with you in Orlando someday in the Walt Disney World park. If I'm not on my HT, I hope you are there next to me on yours. And in time, I hope that studies are released showing the super-low risk that HTs are in any situation so that insurance companies don't freak out about them.

Chris

[SegwayUtah]

P.P.S.

In the areas of the USA where the Segway HT has been "made illegal" (not my words), exceptions seem to generally exist for persons with disabilities--whether by the spirit or the letter of the law or by custom.

Chris

[QuadSquad]

Verbl,

One of the problems with the ADA are those penalties incurred in the enforcement of it. That happens to be the primary issue with regard to the current proposition before the United States Supreme Court with regard to the state of Tennessee's access to its courtrooms by those in wheelchairs. That is dealing with title II and not title III. In the case of Disney or any other commercial venue regulations under title III would apply.

I think that if you read my initial post in this thread you will find that I categorized this issue not so differently than the information you got from the DOJ's assistance line. The issue is with regard to penalties. In reality in most title III cases other than attorney’s fees, most of the time the downside is simply court directed compliance. Hence the unsatisfying prospect of a title III ADA lawsuit, for most law firms. There is no case law which supports the notion that one could disallow the use of the Segway as a mobility device by those with a qualifying disability. Perhaps, there will be soon.

One of the issues with regard to the ADA is that because of the manner in which it is written which was intended to cover many things not contemplated at its enactment is that in its vagueness it could be taken advantage of by those choosing not to comply. For Disney there is little civil liability, that is the sad but true fact. Only the court of public opinion which they do value. The ADA is not a neat little package which you seem to seek, it is murky, it is complex, and it does change from time to time, from one court to another.

The fact that the Segways are not permitted on sidewalks in some parts of the country (I know of no place where it's illegal to own one, not even New York City) would have no bearing on its use by people with disabilities. Clearly this is a fight that we will have to undertake, but I believe it is a fight that we will win. It is interesting that few of these issues occur in Middle America; here people are delighted by those with mobility problems that are helped by the Segway.

[TiVoAussie]

I wish you all the best of luck in getting what seems to me to be an unfair ban overturned.

However, am I understanding it correctly, that you must take action yourself under the ADA, no government body exists to handle such complaints?

In Australia complaints of discrimination are made to our Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission, a government body. Only if they are unable to resolve the issue (very unusual) does the matter need to proceed to the courts, and even then there are free legal services,such as the NSW Disability Discrimination Legal Centre which will assist. Do you have no equivalent facilities?

Cheers

Ron

There are a little over six thousand Segway owners!
There are a little over six billion people in the world!
I'm one in a million! :)