PLEASE HELP! My Segway has been arrested!

[etak]

After waiting over 2 months for the Australian Department of Transport (DoT) to approve my "vehicle" application for the Segway I have bought (that has been sitting in the loading bay of the freight-forwarding agent at Melbourne Airport for that time), I was finally told by DoT today that the application to import has been rejected on the grounds that DoT has defined it as a motor scooter that has a power rating greater than 200W. (Australian Customs have now made it mandatory to get DoT approval for Segways before issuing an entry permit.)

Is there anyone out there in Segway land that can help me at this point? I have been quiet and not posted any listings on this site about this up till now (although I constantly read listings at least 2 or 3 times a day) because the application states that if the item was imported before an approval was requested, an approval would not be granted and the item would have to be re-exported immediately. But now with nothing to lose, I am posting this.

The freight-forwarding agent I used had already imported 2 Segways into Australia under the classification "Wheeled Toy" and they reclassified it as "motor scooter" just after my Segway entered the country. I know from the internet that over 40 US states have modified laws to exclude Segways from motor vehicle status. I think the only way to get around the DoT ruling is convince them that a Segway is not a vehicle as per all the other US states. But how to do that? Do I contact the Federal member of parliament? Do I contact the DoT? It's all a bit much - all I really wanted was to have fun on a wonderful new Segway! I did not plan on so much red-tape.

If I cannot get around this, there is sure to be a brand-new in-box, been-around-the-world Segway for sale on this site or Ebay.

I would appreciate any feedback anyone may have. I will also be participating in the online forum with Doug Field in a few days and will mention this issue to him also.

[TiVoAussie]

Hi Etak,

Well, as you know I've been aware of your problems and it was only your timely warning which prevented me from being in exactly the same position. Many of you will be aware that I recently agreed to buy another Segway from motleyorc and had to back out, well this is why!

My reading of the DoT regulations suggest that the Minister or his delegate has the power to determine that the Segway is not a road vehicle under section 5B(1) of the act:

MOTOR VEHICLE STANDARDS ACT 1989- SECT 5B
Determinations with respect to road vehicles
(1) The Minister may determine, in writing, that vehicles of a particular class or description are not road vehicles for the purposes of this Act or of a specified provision of this Act.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/mvsa1989245/s5b.html


This *may* assist, but it's not likely to be quick, I fear. It'll probably take some time to find out even how to apply for such a determination.

I believe there is some chance that the Segway might get import approval under the Category of "off road vehicle", since it is clearly not intended for "on road" use. I intend to apply for an import permit in this category shortly, I'm just waiting on a letter from an "expert witness" to help support my application. Even if I'm successful in getting an import permit in this category it won't help you, I fear, as the Customs Documentation clearly states that you must not attempt to import the vehicle before permission has been granted.

You've just been caught up in a time trap here... Segways have been previously imported under a different category without difficulty, you fully expected that yours would be treated the same but mid way through the process the rules were changed!

We all know how bizarre and unfair this is but I really don't know what you're going to do about it.

This stinks! Sometimes I really hate the Government.

I'll keep thinking.

Ron


There are a little over six thousand Segway owners!
There are a little over six billion people in the world!
I'm one in a million! :)

[Ground Loop]

Since it won't be used on the road, it won't need tags or registration, correct?

So would it be possible to import it 'piecemeal' as partss? Today you get a rubber floormat, tomorrow a wheelbarrow wheel? :)

[TiVoAussie]

The "piecemeal" option has been considered, but the problem is that in etak's case it's already here...

The trouble is, we'd all like to do this legitimately if possible, establish a precedent and smooth the path for those who come after us.

Cheers

Ron


There are a little over six thousand Segway owners!
There are a little over six billion people in the world!
I'm one in a million! :)

[opti6600]

Or just turn it into a blender...

[dgbint]

Hi Mike

Ouch !!

I am not sure what can be done.
I'll make a few calls to see what, if anything, can be done.

Give me a call if you want to have a glide and a chat.
Michael Mote
9527 6166

[dgbint]

Hi again

I have spoken with the air freighters / customs agents.
OK, for Mike and any other Aussies who may be contemplating imports.

It is VITAL to apply for an import permit PRIOR to importing.
If any units are underway, or here already, they may need to be exported ( say to NZ which is a whole lot cheaper than back across the Pacific to the US ) and paperwork submitted prior to importing.

If you need assistance ( unofficialy, becuase I am not licensed in any way to give expert opinions ) feel free to contact me.

Michael

[Itsi Atkins]

I think the new president of Segway LLC should make this an international event and help you. Maybe with direct mail the Ron you can get the ball rolling. I would try to find a friend in the film industry, which is very big at this time. Get this person to put the Segway in the movie and import it as a prop vechile, a picture car, which happens all the time around the world. They will want the request form the production company and they will say it has to be removed from the country after completion of the film. This can be a long long time and they will not know if it really is in the film or not. Phillip Noyce might be the director who would help you, let me know, he does know me, please email direct segwaynyny.aol.com

[etak]

TivoAussie, dbgint, Itsi,

Thank you for your replies to this thread.

In the first instance I will be drafting letters to my Federal member and the minister for Transport, John Anderson. I will not export the Segway yet until I absolutely have to. I believe that if this were made public (i.e. the papers) it would not look good for a government that is supposed to be advocating new technology which is clean and environmentally friendly (like wind power). I may consider this as a last resort. In any case the public should be made aware of the bungling stupidity under which the DoT is managed. We are talking here of not just rejecting my application, but the whole premise on which the Segway was conceived.

dbgint, would love a glide of your Seg... will contact soon.

Itsi, will contact you also re movie and importing.

TivoAussie, thanks for that link. Will be very helpful in possibly overturning this decision.

[TedS]

etak, would it help to refer to the Segway's Rider Guide where in the 'rules to ride by' Segway specifically says "Stay off the road." This would seem to support claiming the HT is not a road vehicle and not intended to be a road vehicle.

Ted

[etak]

Thank you Ted. I will try to source a copy of Segway's Rider Guide to help with this disaster.

[Zorba9]

Etak, just saw your thread here! The power rating of 200w or greater for the Segway may well be incorrect. I do remember a thread last spring from LLC saying the Segway used only 140w while recharging, I am not an engineer, but how could the Segway put out more watts than it uses to charge itself? Just a thought. Good Luck!

KOG

Zorba9.....

[dgbint]

Hi again

Zorba9, I think that you are on thin ice there.

Mike, I have all the original doco here in Melbourne, so we can copy whatever you need.

Tomorrow, we go a-gliding
Michael

[TiVoAussie]

Here's a list of some useful sites for "barrack room lawyers" trying to figure out Australia's convoluted laws which have, or even might have, some bearing on importing a Segway. They're mostly horribly dull, but still a "must read!"

Motor Vehicle Standards Act, 1989:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/mvsa1989245/

Dept of Transport, Vehicle Standards Bulletin 10, Importing a Vehicle Into Australia:
(Includes links to application form)
http://www.dotars.gov.au/transreg/vsb/vsb_10.htm

Australian Road Rules:
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/rulesregulations/downloads/roadraustr_dl1.html

Disability Discrimination Act (If you have a case):
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/dda1992264/

Customs Tariff Information:
You can have hours of fun here trying to find a suitable category for the importation of your Segway :)
Not the world's best site, but okay when you get the hang of it.
In the bar at the left select Import/Export, Then Customs Tariff, then start to drill down in the hierarchy of PDF's.
http://www.customs.gov.au/

Happy reading!

To dgbint/etak... I've got all the doco too, and a handy JP to certify the copies are "true copies" so if you can't find anything you need let me know. Have a nice glide together tomorrow! Etak, haven't you had a ride yet? You'll dream of it tomorrow night! It's like nothing you've ever experienced... Closest I can come up with is skiing... but it's not like skiing either :)

For the rest of you guys, be glad all you have to do is worry about is paying for your Segway, and that you don't have to go through all this!


There are a little over six thousand Segway owners!
There are a little over six billion people in the world!
I'm one in a million! :)

[Ground Loop]

Just to shed some light on the power rating thing, it's indeed quite the case that the Segway uses more power running than it does charging.. after all, it takes longer to charge. Think of filling up a bucket with water and dumping it out all at once..

It would be helpful if Segway LLC would publish accurate power numbers, but they're probably locked in a vault behind armed guards.

But we can estimate based on the battery capacity and runtime at full speed. At top speed, each motor uses about 4.5 amps at 72volts. (The math was done by a previous poster here on SC.)

So 630 Watts total, or almost 1 horsepower (746W) average for one hour. If you could somehow use the full current capacity of the batteries, you could get about four times this, but that's just hypothetical. The controls won't allow it.

My Segway uses about 110W in fast charge.

[ronzul]

Dear etak

I am so sorry to hear of the DOT decision. I guess my lucky stars were really working overtime when I got mine through.

I hope something positive occurs and you get your machine soon.

Ronny

---
Who said that you shouldn't get carried away on your Segway?

[ZoliHonig]

I'm sorry to hear! [B)]

I think the thing with these things is to keep bugging the people. If you keep calling, faxing, and emailing, eventually they will listen to you. When I deal with this type of thing you have to be short and sweet to the point.
Thats just my 2 cents.
Good Luck! I'd hate to see a great segway go to waste. :(

[8]-Zoli[8]

[etak]

I just wanted to thank Segway LLC publicly for their very helpful email reply regarding dealing with Customs bodies and the like. Who says Segway LLC doesn't monitor this chat site!!

[etak]

dgbint,

Thank you for the glide yesterday! Meg and I both really enjoyed it.

Today I spoke to Australian Customs at the Tariff Classification section. They said that Customs were very clear about the tariff code that was currently being used for Segways (i.e. 8711) and they would not consider changing it. The only way it would be changed is if a brand new tariff code were to be created by the World Customs Organisation for Segways and it was introduced to Australia by an Act of Parliament.

So it seems that I am back to square one with this one! I am still waiting to speak to the DoT Administrator about my application. I spoke to them today and it seems that they are considering its status as a mobility device and have not entirely rejected it yet. But I get different stories on different days so, to be sure, I will be waiting for a call from the Administrator.

[SegwayUtah]

etak,

I'm so sorry to hear your plight. Please, please let us know how things progress.

Chris

[TiVoAussie]

Hi etak,

It may not specifically help you, but I've just written to Dr Sev Ozdowski, the Disability Discrimination Commissioner, seeking assistance and hopefully his intercession in my case. Maybe if we can get it fixed for us (we've got a bigger "hammer" with the disability issues) the same fix will help us all!

Your comments on "mobility device" give minute glimmers of hope :)

Cheers

Ron

There are a little over six thousand Segway owners!
There are a little over six billion people in the world!
I'm one in a million! :)

[etak]

I have just spoken to the Administrator of the DoT, Peter Robinson. He said that he has rejected the application to import the Segway on the grounds that it is a vehicle that does not fit the Australian Design Rules.

However, he also made the following points:

1. Importing Segways for research purposes (e.g. Monash Dept of Robotics recent purchase of 2 Segways) would be approved because there is provision in the
act for this.

2. Importing Segways for special purposes like access devices would be looked at on a case-by-case basis and be approved.

3. In the next few months, DoT will be liasing with State Transport bodies about modifying road laws to possibly exclude Segways from "vehicle" status. He said that DoT was aware of Segways and that DoT believe that they could actually reduce the volume of traffic on the road.

I will be sending DoT a letter in the next few days with a letter from my partner Meg, who is the Disability Coodinator at her school. She requires a Segway to evaluate its usefulness as a wheelchair alternative for various disabled children in her school. I am hoping that, based on what Peter Robinson has said, he will then approve my application.

[ronzul]

Good luck Michael... at least there is a proper possibility now

---
Who said that you shouldn't get carried away on your Segway?

[dgbint]

Hi

I am also taking some paperwork action.
The tack that I am taking will take about 30 days to resolve.

So Mike, good luck with your activities, but there may well be the fallback position that I am working on.
I'd like to keep it a bit quiet until it is all resolved.

Michael

[etak]

I am now the proud owner of a new Segway! having waited 3 months for this i am all the more excited to have a glide - it's charging in the garage right now and i will have to wait till 1am to ride it. just once up and down the drive so as not to wake the neighbours.

segway said that there may be a possibility of irreversible cell damage to the batteries but so far it seems to be charging up just fine. it's on the 'fast pulse' cycle now which means that it's doing the cell balancing process.

word of warning to others who are considering importing Segways to Aussie -

[etak]

DONT DO IT YET - WAIT UNTIL DOT HAS WORKED OUT LEGISLATION AND CUSTOMS HAVE THE CORRECT TARIFF CODES IN PLACE FOR SEGWAYS...

[dgbint]

Hi Mike

It was great to go for a sunset glide by the beach !
Please post those photos, as soon you get them out of your camera. If you have any difficulty, just email me the pics and I'll post them.

This evening was my first multi Seg glide.
We sure attracted a bit of attention.

Let's do it again, soon ...

Michael

[etak]

Hi Michael

great fun gliding along the beach bike path last night! thanks for helping me get the seg started by the way! will post the pics later today.

had another glide early this morning before work. people driving in cars and looking and then looking again in disbelief! i have that segway smile as i write. it really makes me understand that we dont all have to travel by car ALL the time - just glide around - how cool is that!

i am on the yellow key and tomorrow i think i will try the red key and wow!

[BenBethel]

So what finally allowed you to take delivery of the Segway? I'm very curious. If you don't know, I brought a Segway to Sydney on vacation and 'forgot' to take it home...

Ben

www.benbethel.com

[etak]

Ben,

My partner is the Disabilities coordinator at her school. She wants to evaluate the effectiveness of Segways as access devices for children who can stand and balance but cannot walk far. The Department of Transport approved the import on those grounds - a mobility device.

[BenBethel]

Cool - well, congratulations are in order! The more Segways in Australia, the better. You probably have more per capita there than we do here in the US - or will soon!

Ben

www.benbethel.com

[StephenJ]

Michael
Congratulations. Glad to hear you finally got it out customs. So Ronzul has his too and we now have all Australian Segways running free! Do you know of anyone else attempting to import one now?

Stephen

[TiVoAussie]

Hi Aussies et al,

I've got an Import Permit application with DOTARS at the moment, I have verbal assurance it will go through so I'm very hopeful.

I've also applied to customs for a re-classification of the Segway (in the light of recent developments) to Tariff code 8713, Carriage for Disabled Persons. This will free the Segway from GST and Duty, if successful.

I'm not terribly hopeful of success with customs however, they seem positively wedded to the idea that it belongs in 8711, Motorcycles. It may need a ministerial or an appeal to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. Nevertheless, if DOTARS will admit them only for use by the disabled then it is contradictory for another department to classify them otherwise.

Cheers

Ron

There are a little over six thousand Segway owners!
There are a little over six billion people in the world!
I'm one in a million! :)

[etak]

Stephen,

There are no other Segways that I know of (apart from TiVoAussie)

[Skidlid]

Sounds good guys i want to sell my car and get one as i have more use for one to go to town on.

At anyrate can anyone give me a update on the import process.

[dgbint]

Hi SkidLid

There is still a problem.
We are working hard on two different fronts with two different government departments.

We hope to have resolution ( positive that is ) prior to Christmas.

Michael

[Loulou5020]

Could not agree more the EPAMD Electric Personal assistive Device is probably your best route. This is what I will go for in Ontario, Canada.

Good luck TIVoAussie

Seg for life

[billc]

Hi skidlid,

if you have any sort of disability let me know...otherwise...what dgbint said...

Bill Contoyannis
Manager / Rehabilitation Engineer, REHAB Tech
Centre for Biomedical Engineering - Monash University

[NFI]

Hi all, does anyone know if the issues with the Australian Government has been resolved ? If so what are the requirements ? I look forward to any reply re this matter....

Cheers
NFI:)