Segway As Military Tool

[technonerd]

In a different message thread, someone talked about how people buy Segways to improve community life, etc. If that's the case, I am wondering how people here feel about the recent reports that the federal government plans to buy a bunch of Segways to be adapted as military robots that can kill the enemy without human involvement.

Two specific questions:

1. Is this an appropriate and ethical use for the "Human Transporter?"

2. Do you take the purchase seriously, or is it just a way for Dean Kamen -- a family friend of the Bushes -- to wangle a subsidy to bail out Segway LLC from its failure in the civilian marketplace?

[verbl800]

Hey Technonerd...

Haven't had a chance to welcome you to the board yet - glad you are here and can provide some insight from a non-Seg-user standpoint (everyone remember Albaby?).

Just to clarify, the military hasn't purchased any Segways to make into automated killer robots. You are mixing up a couple of rumors.

The military has puchased Segways to facilitate easier transportation on some of their bases, and is in the midst of testing them to guage their effectiveness.

Secondly, DARPA is funding research into the Segway's use as an autamated robotics platform, but this project is still in the early research stages, and is being worked on in conjunction with various other university-driven research projects. See http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/12/02/segway.military.ap/index.html for more info.

To answer your specific questions:

1. "Appropriate" and "ethical" are obviously very subjective terms. To me, the military using the Seg is no different the the military using cars for functional uses. Is the military's use of a car unethical or inappropriate? I don't believe so, nor would I find their use of the Seg to be so.

2. I hope you're not serious about this question. I think perhaps you left your tin-foil hat at home today. You believe the Segway being used by the military (which isn't true in the context you described) is really a way for LLC to gain protection from the Bush family? I can't really offer anything to disprove you, other than to say it sounds awfully far-fetched, even as conspiracy theories go.

I am so sad now. I actually agreed with some of your earlier viewpoints (i.e. Segs are not the bastion of functionality most owners make them out to be), but now it appears as if you may be a little bit "out there" with your thinking.

[technonerd]

quote:You believe the Segway being used by the military (which isn't true in the context you described) is really a way for LLC to gain protection from the Bush family? I can't really offer anything to disprove you, other than to say it sounds awfully far-fetched, even as conspiracy theories go.
I don't think it's that far-fetched. Military contracts tend to be pretty lucrative, and they are frequently obtained with the help of political juice. Kamen has been reported to be close to the Bushes on a personal basis, and he did manage to get Bush photographed on one of the machines. (And then Bush went and fell down ... talk about your unintended results!) And Segway LLC has definitely underperformed in a major way.

No, I think it's a reasonable question to ask. Proof? Oh hell, who can ever prove stuff like that? At that level, things are done by means of winks and nods. Or maybe you thought that Halliburton got those no-bid contracts in Iraq by sheer happenstance?

[technonerd]

To put it differently: For all the familiarity and commonality of purpose and outlook implied by first names, how well do any of you really know "Dean" or his motives, methods and goals?

[Sid Viscous]

"a family friend of the Bushes"

And the Clintons, or at least he visted them fairly often during the Clinton administration. Also I highly doubt that he "arranged" the photograph. In case you didn't know, the press follows the president and takes pictures all the time.

He did however "arrange" to have his picture taken with Clinton while Dean was on the Ibot.

Dean is no more a war monger than anyone else, and I seriously doubt he is asking for bailout help from the government. But they are a huge market, and like every other company would like to see product there.

And selling to the military is not unethical or evil in anyway. In fact we've had this conversation here before. GM does it, as wel as everyother automaker, and most large companies. It's a fact of life. Get over it and don't read anything into it.

[Sid Viscous]

"well do any of you really know "Dean" or his motives, methods and goals?"

He's not my best buddy, but I think I'm in a pretty good position.

[Sid Viscous]

Ohyes. You are aware, I'm sure, that North Dumpling Island is the only nation to every give Financial aid to the US.

The accounting wasa bit difficult as the North Dumpling Island currency echange rate is pi$

[verbl800]

I really don't want to do this here since this board is not a political forum, but just to clear up your obvious misconceptions:

Halliburton's current contracts in Iraq were actually awarded long before the current war, by none other than President Clinton's administration. The contracts you refer to, such as that of providing fuel as well as that of rebuilding various building for use by American forces, were given to KBR, a division of Halliburton, back in 1998 by Clinton. The contracts are awarded on a 5-year basis regularly by the DOD. These contracts are kept in place in the case of war or emergency...it would be pretty silly to wait for a war then start deciding how to take care of the basics.

The contracts for the majority of the rebuilding effort have yet to be awarded, and are in fact being bid-out as we speak (you might have read some of the controversy surrounding the recent bid process where German, French and Russian companies are excluded).

Before rhetoric-filled left-leaning whiners like you start bashing the Halliburton contract awarded by the Clinton administration, perhaps you should understand them a bit more, no?

[Sid Viscous]

And before you start insinuating Dean Kamen is an evil war mongerer you might look into his other inventions, and the current ones that he is spending his own money to develop.

Getting clean water to third world countries. Helping diabetics, and other people in nead of regualar intraveneous medication, helping people with heart disease. <sarcasam on> Now that's evil </sarcasam off>

[technonerd]

quote:"a family friend of the Bushes"{/quote]
Yes, a family friend of the Bushes

http://www.concordmonitor.com/stories/news/politics2002/capbeat011302_2002.shtml

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.09/kamen_pr.html

http://search.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/03/12/fp1s4-csm.shtml


[quote]before you start insinuating Dean Kamen is an evil war mongerer
I made no such insinuation. I only asked the question of whether those people who say that the acquisition of the Segway "Human Transporter" is a pro-community act think it's ethical or appropriate to employ the Segway as part of a killing machine. My own view is that it is absolutely appropriate. I have no problem with making the Segway an integral part of a killer robot. My only issue is with using the civilian, recreational version on the sidewalks.

I also don't blame the guy for working every possible angle to keep Segway LLC afloat. As a consumer product the HT is an unmitigated flop, at least so far. If they can sell a bunch of them to the military, why not? Given the Pentagon's record for purchasing, who knows, maybe then can weld a gun mount on the handlebars and get them to pay a couple million per machine. If it should happen, it would be crony capitalism at its very finest.

[verbl800]

I love trolls.

technonerd - you can't keep swapping sides and hope to maintain any kind of credibility.

"My own view is that it is absolutely appropriate. I have no problem with making the Segway an integral part of a killer robot."

"If it should happen, it would be crony capitalism at its very finest."

So, which is it? Are you for or against the military using Segs?

Oh wait, I forgot, you're a troll who doesn't actually hold any opinions.

[technonerd]

O.K., I should rein it in and be more literal. My attempts at sarcasm aren't appreciated. So let me be literal:

I am skeptical of the military's apparent interest in the Segway. I think it comes at too convenient a juncture in the company's highly troubled evolution to be credible on its face. I suspect that it is a thinly-disguised subsidy to keep a failing operation alive. I can't prove it; these are my suspicions, not my claims.

The rest of what I've written on this subject was sarcasm. I didn't realize that sarcasm was equivalent to "trolling," but now I do and therefore I will stop being sarcastic. I hope that those who have been sarcastic amd mocking toward me -- the "tin-foil hat" comment being a pretty good example, wouldn't you agree? -- will also stop it.

Is that fair, or is sarcasm strictly a one-way street here? Is anyone skeptical of the Segway and opposed to its sidewalk use obligated to tie one hand behind his back while everyone else uses both fists?

[Sid Viscous]

" think it comes at too convenient a juncture in the company's highly troubled evolution to be credible on its face."

Which only proves your ignorance.

The Segway was first sold only to commercial customers. Months later (approx 1 year ago) it was released into the consumer market.

Long before the first Segway was sold to anyone, even before the original 5 were auctioned off two years ago, the military was looking at and evaluating the Segway. So it didn't happen at "this critical juncture" after sales didn't meet expectations. It happened long ago.


And the killer robot questions are ludicrous, they look at it as transportation. No different than a jeep or plane, and I have never seen any armament mounted on a Segway.

[Blinky]

Technonerd writes:
quote:...only asked the question of whether those people who say that the acquisition of the Segway "Human Transporter" is a pro-community act think it's ethical or appropriate to employ the Segway as part of a killing machine
lol, same could go for jeeps, hummers, cargo planes, etc


and the point?




http://www.segwaychat.com/photos/Blinky/Blinkyblink.gif http://www.segwaychat.com/photos/Blinky/mrblinky.jpg

[technonerd]

quote:lol, same could go for jeeps, hummers, cargo planes, etc. and the point?
Well, we had one poster here, "SegwayUtah," claim that:

"You will find that a number of people here get offended at the thought that they might be endangering others by riding their Segway HT. In fact, many of them bought their HTs in large part because they wanted to be a better citizen; a less dangerous citizen; a kinder neighbor."

No one challenged that statement. I was wondering whether this squares with the military potentially deploying the Segway as a part of a killing machine. The idea doesn't bother me, but I am skeptical on the issue of whether the military's interest is genuine or whether it is an outgrowth of Dean Kamen's friendship with the current president and his father and their willingness to subsidize Segway LLC, which otherwise has been failing rather dramatically in the civilian market.

The media liked the Segway HT and a relative handful of early adopters like it a whole lot, but the wider public has taken a look and (thus far) delivered a collective thumbs-down. A military contract would come in handy, but I wonder if those who bought their HTs to be a better, kinder and less dangerous citizen would approve of their machine's potential deployment as a part of the machinery of death.

I think it's a legitimate question, anyway. It's age-old isn't it? The collision between ideals and cold reality?

[ElectraGlide]

The military buys planes , cars, trucks, plywood, bottled water, computers, gasoline, bug spray, soap, nails, lawnmowers, bullets, guns, O rings, TV's and radios, mattresses, springs, fertilizer, mittens, shoes and boots, tires, grass seed, paint, gunpowder, band-aids tanks, missles, butter and eggs, medicine, blankets , tents, parachutes, milk, bicycles, computer monitors, pool tables, and laundry detergent......and now perhaps some Segways? Great.....

Steve

Let me add.....if the Segway is used on the battlefield to kill the enemy, and save the lives of American soldiers I support it and I hope it succeeds 100 % ....who wouldnt???

[technonerd]

Yeah, but they actually need the other stuff.

[Sid Viscous]

Can you not read. I already addresed those issues.

As to need, that makes no sense. In certain circumstances it would be helpful. The military isn't about need, it's about the best tools for the job.

Just because you are to small minded to see possible uses for the Segway doesn't mean all are that way.

[technonerd]

quote:The military isn't about need, it's about the best tools for the job.
Alas, the military is also about paying contractors $2.50 a gallon to supply gasoline to the second largest oil producer in the world. The timing of their interest in Segway, and the simultaneous interest by Britain, is interesting in light of the company's civilian market failure.

[Mr_Laurenzano]

Two specific questions:

1. Is this an appropriate and ethical use for the "Human Transporter?"
What a soc-shussss.


2. Do you take the purchase seriously, or is it just a way for -- a family friend of the Bushes -- to wangle a subsidy to bail out Segway LLC from its failure in the civilian marketplace?
I would log in with a name like technonerd If I were you.




peace is a oneway street, with no crossroads and no deadends

[technonerd]

quote:What a soc-shussss.[/i]
Could you tell me what that means? Must be a code word of some kind?


[quote]I would log in with a name like technonerd If I were you.
In context, this appears to be an insult. It's remarkable how many insults are being thrown my way. This is not a very polite or tolerant group toward those who see things differently, is it?

[Sid Viscous]

A. Oil is not gasoline. So your point is irrelevant.

B. I already addressed the timing issue, it is completely false statement by you, yet you continue to ay it.

As to insults. Maybe before wading into a community based around a certain piece of technolgy, with little or no knowledge of that technology, insinuate that people are stupid, lazy, and so forth, contimue to ramble on about points that you have no knowledge on, and are patently false, even after they are shown to be false, and just generally acting like a loney toll looking for attention, you might introduce yourself, state your points, listen to the counter arguments and quite flailing aroud like a little child.

[technonerd]

quote:Maybe before wading into a community based around a certain piece of technolgy, with little or no knowledge of that technology, insinuate that people are stupid, lazy, and so forth, contimue to ramble on about points that you have no knowledge on, and are patently false, even after they are shown to be false, and just generally acting like a loney toll looking for attention, you might introduce yourself, state your points, listen to the counter arguments and quite flailing aroud like a little child.
I suppose that's one way to look at it ...

[Neelix]

In regards to insults: You come in, telling us that we're fat and lazy, basically saying that we're horrible people for using a certain piece of technology and sit here and argue with us about it, and you are surprised at insults? Wow.

-------------------------
Fear not, for even though I come from the Forbidden City, I surely do not agree with the rules.
Chris Knight

[technonerd]

quote:You come in, telling us that we're fat and lazy, basically saying that we're horrible people for using a certain piece of technology and sit here and argue with us about it, and you are surprised at insults?
I didn't call you fat and lazy, nor did I say (basically or otherwise) that you're horrible people for using a Segway. The fat and lazy comment was ill-advised, I'll admit -- for the second time -- but it wasn't a specific insult at anyone here. I have continually said that the Segway ain't my cup o'joe but I also don't really care if people want to ride them as long as they stay off the sidewalks with what I think is a dangerous and annoying vehicle.

Yeah, I've sat and argued, but no one can argue with himself. And I'm not surprised at all by the insults. Not one bit. I'm simply making note of them here. The Segwayers who have chatted me up have been far more insulting to me than they other way around. Even Bruce, that champion of a civil tongue.

Oh well. Hey kids, I think I'll slink away for a few days. Let y'all cool off and ponder how to disagree without being disagreeable. You know, manners and all that. Some things aren't solved by technology, folks.

[Sid Viscous]

"I have continually said that the Segway ain't my cup o'joe"

Nor mine, but why come into here with an attitude like yours, and be so insulting.

"but I also don't really care if people want to ride them as long as they stay off the sidewalks with what I think is a dangerous and annoying vehicle."

That is your opinion. Much the same opinion people had when cars first came out. And yet again that has been discussed to death, here and other places. It is interesting to note that the only injury with a pedestrian that has been publisized, happened in a place where it has been outlawed. Yet there are many other places where there is heavy pedestrian traffic, and they are legal, yet no problems.

As to other places where it has been discussed http://discuss.pcmag.com/pcmag/start/?msg=29928

Rather than a Segway enthusiats site, a place like that might be a better place to go. And there are loads of other sites out there were you'll be welcomed with open arms.

If you have issues and would like to discuss them in a rational manner, and listen to the opposing view point, then here would be the place.

As to Segway riders being unfriendly in the street and so forth. I think it has alot to do with your attituted and maners. I've met many. They are a little whacko, but for the most part are friendly. I would say that one of the top 5 reasons why people like the Segway is it allows them to interact with other people, and other than people with attitudes like you, the people are friendly and interested.

[albaby]

quote:Haven't had a chance to welcome you to the board yet - glad you are here and can provide some insight from a non-Seg-user standpoint (everyone remember Albaby?).
Hey, I'm still around! I'm just lurking, that's all.

I'm still marginally interested in the Segway, although (again) primarily from an urban planning/transportation network perspective. However, those issues don't really come into play until you have broader adoption. A few thousand (or even a few tens of thousands) of anything doesn't really have much of a planning impact.

Actually, I'm curious to see what happens with the Q. It's an inferior product, but it's cheaper and it's in a vastly broader distribution chain.

I've stopped posting, mainly because the issues that interest me don't seem to be of much interest to the general group. Discussion of the effects of large numbers of Segways operating in urban densities is largely a "what-if" conversation. It involves speculating on how broad populations of Segway users will act. Most of the members of the forum seemed rather put off by that.

I suspect that's because Segway - like any product - has far fewer social consequences in small numbers than large numbers. Small numbers of any product are innocuous, but large numbers of a product can have dramatic effects on our social and physical environment. So many products look more favorable in small numbers than large ones, and I suspect that the Segway is the same way. But absent a strong inclination on the part of forum members to talk about some of the impacts that might lie down the road, I'm content to merely lurk.

Anyway, I'm still occasionally following these discussions, and wish everyone well. On a side note, I've now seen a few packs of rental Segway riders along Lincoln Road (a large outdoor pedestrian shopping area) here in Miami Beach. Groups of three or four touristy folks, chasing after each other on the Segs. They seemed to be having fun.

Regards to all,

Albaby

[BruceWright]

Happy Holidays to you, Albaby. Glad you're still reading.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[nocanfly]

Great post albaby. These issues should be discussed. Speculation of segway's future is a great topic and allows for differing point of views. Keep posting!

[defenbaugh]

Welcome back, Albaby. Good to see you haven't abandoned us. Your thoughts always create some interest for the group.

Follow your bliss,[^]
Ron

[tgwoody]

Tech-no, ,, you are not a nerd. It just sounds like you have issues with life. I know your type. Look at me, look at me.

I'm not known for my post here, but I do like to read this forum and read about good things and you have not contributed to that. All your post are ill-willed.

I only speak for myself and this only my personal viewpoint, but you should just go-away and express yourself to a forum that cares and feeds into your special needs.

I know, I know. .. you are going to type back one last time and tell me that I'm an #$@!-!@#% and an @&*$#$%#@ and throw your typing skills around,and thats ok.

And thats all I have to say!