Engineers please help

[ronzul]

Hi,

I am hoping for some creative "accounting".

I have my Segway stuck in Australian Customs, and they want me to get Department of Transport approval before they will release it to me.

My understanding is that if the Segway is less than 200 W, they have to give me approval to use it. The specification on the Segway web site says that each motor is rated at 1.5 kW.

Can anyone think of a way of saying, okay, yes it is a total of 3 kW, but most of that is needed for "maintaining balance" (or something), and is equivalent to 200 W in a conventional device.

I am also going to try and argue that I need this as a mobility device, and it should be considered equivalent to an electric wheelchair in my situation.

Any help or ideas would be most appreciated.

By the way, does anyone know if the rating on a p series is less than on the i?

Cheers
Ronny

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Who said that you shouldn't get carried away on your Segway?

[Sal]

Ronny,

Pardon my french, but that sucks! I am sure that someone on here can help. What do customs do with gas powered electric scooters? Do they impose any restrictions on them?

I wonder if you offered them a demonstration, it would persuade them to reassess the situation. OR, from a pure layman's perspective, the mobilty device angle seems the strongest to me.

Tell them the dept. of transport won't have to worry, you're not going to glide on the roadways, only on the sidewalks, for short distances, and usually at walking speed.

Sometimes I wish logic would prevail more often than law.

-Sal

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[Zorba9]

Ronzul - Here is a possibility for you. Last winter we had some threads on charging Segways in your car using various size powerconverters (12v/120v). What would work, what wouldn't. LLC (sid viscous) told us our Segs use only 140 watts while charging (we could charge 2 Segs at a time with a 400 watt (continous - 800 watt peak) powerconverter. So if it uses only 140 watts, shouldn't your customs clear it? Good Luck!

KOG

Zorba9.....

[dhugger]

3kW is max power. From my understanding, the machine would only draw that kind of power when try to push a really heavy person up a big hill while pushing the speed limiter. Also, don't a few people in Sydney have HTs? See if you can get a hold of them.

-Derek Hugger-

[dhugger]

Just thought of something else... show them some of the laws from the USA. I know for a fact that New Hampshire law says that EPAMDs shall NOT be considered a vehicle. EPAMD users will be considered pedestrians.

-Derek Hugger-

[dexter]

>>My understanding is that if the Segway is less than 200 W

That restriction has to be clarified. If what about the Segway is less than 200W? The power it draws when charging? The average power used when operating? The peak power before motor windings burn out? The max power capable of being produced by the batteries? The power consumed by the computer?

There are several subsystems of the HT that involve "power calculations" and those will also have peak power numbers and average power numbers associated with them.

That "1.5kW" spec is the peak power of the motors. I'm not sure why that would be a critical limiting factor, unless the overall power capability of the device is in question for safety reasons. According to the HT component specs, that 1.5kW capability equates to the 2 HP capable of being produced by each motor. That's pretty powerful and that may indeed be an issue. Then again, the average horsepower used while maintaining balance and typical gliding is definitely way less than that.

But they may not be interested in that at all. It may be more of a concern about power draw of the device when connected to the power grid. In this case the 140W spec above would be appropriate.

If the customs guys are just looking at a paperwork spec and looking for any sticker on the Segway tht exceeds that spec without being concerned with what that spec relates to then maybe you can get someone with more expertise to intervene on your behalf.

Just looking for a number without clarification would be like trying to figure out if it is OK to plug a 1200W refrigerator into a 500W circuit and deciding that would be OK because the light bulb inside the regrigerator is marked "15 Watts".

Good luck with this, we all know the anxiety of waiting for our Segway to arrive, but this bump will be smoothed out and hopefully you will be gliding soon!

Dave C.
me: www.idexter.com
work: www.idealjacobs.com
play: www.nyline.org

[Deviant]

Although you won't get down to 300, my understanding is that the HT has over engineered the components for extra quality and to allow excess for redundancy. So, if they needed 300 watts for usage, then they would have to have 600 watt capability (motor has 2 separate windings to use either one), and then would still bump up the specification to ensure actual availability of power in the real world.

So I would venture that a 1.5kw motor means that less than 750w are being used.

I recommend you contact Segway LLC directly about this as a regulatory issue rather than an engineering question.

[segwaynewton]

is it US department of transportation or australia's?

Segway, it's the ride of the future!

[citivolus]

Dare I ask, what would it take to get DOT approval?

--
swiftly flying

[StephenJ]

Ronny
Sorry to hear about the delay - it must be very frustrating for you.
I also got a phone call from the freight company (who got mine through customs) saying that if I wanted to import another I would have to get permission first. What exactly is the Department of Transport looking for - looks like they might be trying to classify it as a road vehicle and create all sorts of problems for us. It may need to get a compliance plate - see http://www.dotars.gov.au/transreg/str_cert.htm
My intital advice is to tell them it is an electric buggy NOT a motor vehicle. If they classify it as a motor vehicle we are all in big trouble.
Its a really bad time for this to happen with everything closing for Christmas. You need to find out how they treat electric buggies that the disabled use. If things get slow we will have to write to the Minister - keep records of all your communication with DoT.
Stephen

[dgbint]

Hi Guys

I have sent you the details of my successful importation (5% duty + 10% GST). I have included all the relevant numbers and references which hopefully will assist you.

I suspect that obtaining a vehicle compliance plate is a very arduous task.
I think that 'we' should stick to our guns, and NOT consider it a vehicle ( if that is possible ). The manufacturer does not suggest that it is a road going vehicle, current Aussie users don't ( I think ) use theirs on the road, so why is DOT getting involved ?

Clearly if LLC had appointed an agent here, all this sort of stuff would be resolved by that party.

I'll do my best to assist.
Michael

[StephenJ]

Ronny
Going through the Australian motor vehicle legislation at http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/mvsa1989245/
there are important points under Section 5:

"imported vehicle" means a road vehicle imported on or after 1 July 1989."


"road motor vehicle" means: (a) a motor vehicle designed solely or principally for the transport on public roads of people, animals or goods; or (b) a motor vehicle that is permitted to be used on public roads."
So you need to make it clear to DOT that it is not a road motor vehicle under these definitions: It has not been explicitly permitted for use on public roads in Australia, and to quote from page 27 of the Segway HT Riders' Guide: "The Segway HT is not intended or recommended for primary use on streets or roads." It may also be worth adding that the p-series has a speed limiter that cuts in at 16 kph, making it slower than a bycicle.
This should be more straight forward than getting into a debate on engine power. DoT seem to want to say that if it has more than 200watts it is a road vehicle and will therefore need complinace plates - its simpler just to quote from the manual that it is not for road use.
Stephen

[ronzul]

Hi guys,

Sorry I haven't replied to all the messages yet, I'm just too angry about all this nonsense to try and write anything rational. I was just livid all day today. I just really felt so angry that there is this machine sitting on customs that has the potential to give me a freedom and mobility that I haven't experienced in about 10 years, and someone decides that they can keep that from me and force me to get Federal Department of Transport approval first.

I really appreciate everyone's input and ideas and I know that it takes time to write some of the coherent responses above.

Hopefully, I will feel more rational tomorrow.

Cheers
Ronny

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Who said that you shouldn't get carried away on your Segway?

[dgbint]

Hi Ronny

I too would be out-of-my-tree if my Seg was locked up, just a few minutes from my place and the bureaucrats wouldn't let me have it.

Stephen's advice is sound. Go with the paperwork. Do you need me to email you a copy of the relavent page from the riders guide ? I guess that your guide is in the box.

Good luck
Michael