can we nip ny ban in the bud?

[yogibear]

hello there, this is our first post so excuse us if it 's a bit clumsy. we've been informed of a mounting adversity in NYC against scooters, following horrible accidents, which could result in having them banned from sidewalks. now, while this would be sensible for the gas scooters that caused the accidents, a rather vague formulation of the ban could lead it to include electric scooters, which are silent, eco-friendly and safe. of course a segway is not a scooter, but basically the issue is ensuring that a clear distinction is made between gas scooters, on one side, and electric scooters and segways on the other, to avoid trhe risk of all of these being banned. to this effect , perhaps the following e-mail we received from NYCewheels, a little shop in NYC that sells electric scooters, might be of interest as it contains information as to what to do to try to stop the ban from concerning electric vehicles. if you'd care to give it a look it might help towards a good cause. thanks!
---
Hi all, thank you for the huge response we received on the NY times.
We have to ask you one more favor; you may or may not be in NY or have a scooter but I am calling on you to help out to keep electric scooters on the street. It makes sense for the City and the environment at large and because of the awful 2 stroke engine gas scooters, hundreds of adults on clean transportation may find themselves back in the driver's seat. Literally. And that is the last thing this city needs - more cars.
Please call Legislative Coordinator to City Council Member McMahon right away and tell him he should exclude low-speed electric scooters from the bill they are introducing today. (An Introduction of a bill
doesn't make it a law just yet, it must first be passed by council)

These are the two guys to contact.

Peter Vallone D Queens
22-45 31st ST, Astoria 11105
718-556-7370, 212-788-7210
E-Mail: vallonejr@council.nyc.ny.us

Michael McMahon D. Staten Island
130 Stuyvesant Place, 6th Flr. 10301
E-mail: mcmahon@council.nyc.ny.us

PLEASE CALL NOW! He is writing a press release today.

[Turtle]

That's odd... I rode for blocks and blocks and blocks in Manhattan last weekend when I was up there for the upgrade and for an unrelated class. I think the single best argument for Segway is for us simply to go out and BE part of the traffic. I had absolutely no problem even in impossibly-congested areas like Chelsea, Soho and Little Italy. People weren't unreasonably freaked out by the unit (though I'd have expected New Yorkers to be a bit more blase).

Not even a close call with any pedestrians, though I saw more than a couple low-speed bicycle/pedestrian impacts.

Turtle

[statmed]

I received that same e-mail from NYCE wheels today and thought long and hard about writing to these council members but I realized that there is a BIG difference between electric scooters and Segways and I don't want them lumped together in any type of legislation. There is an enormous difference between my $5,000 Segway and a $100.00 electric scooter. I realize that NYCE wheels makes their living from selling these electric and gas scooters and the proposed legilation would make it illegal to own or sell them, so they have a HUGE interest in this legislation.

I see daily young children as well as teenagers zipping around on these scooters, both gas and electric and most have no regard for life, theirs or anyone on the sidewalks. Most are not mature enough to handle these types of vehicles. In my neighborhood and elderly woman was critically injured when she walked out of the local pharmacy and this teenager mowed her down on his scooter. Some of these scooters can go faster than the 12 mph our Segways can go and cannot stop as quickly as we can.

Just my 2 cents!




H.M. Stern
statmed@optonline.net

I Love It When A Plan Comes Together (Hannibal Smith)

[SegwayUtah]

I may be up in the night here, so to say, but don't gas and electric scooters (we're not talking EPAMDs here) have roughly the same operating characteristics (other than noise and emissions)?

There are a lot of reasons why scooters and other similar modes of transportation, motorized or not, should be kept off high-traffic sidewalks. But they can be a very good thing on non-crowded sidewalks

It amazes me more and more every day how easily and safely EPAMDs integrate into heavy pedestrian traffic.

Chris

[yogibear]

most electric scooters don't go beyond 12 mph while most gas scooters do - and many electric scooters can travel at less than 1 mph, while we'd assume gas scooters can't - so that, apart from noise and emissions (which aren't really secondary, though) is the main difference. we spent a few weeks in NYC in August and used a little electric scooter purchased from NYCewheels (that's why we got their e-mail). we rode it (slowly, of course) on sidewalks, in shops, even resatutrants and received no negative comments, just a lot of questions all gliders know well( how much does it cost, how fast can it go etc). we'd probably have received less friendly reactions on a gas scooter, and rightly so. we did test drive a Segway in Florida later during our holiday, so we're perfectly aware that it's an entirely different story - but we did get the feeling that Segways and electric scooters had a little something in common, in terms of being sidewalk-friendly if used courteously. that's why we thought we'd suggest giving some support to the NYCEwheels initiative - besides we thought, perhaps getting used to seeing silent little vehicles moving gently on the sidewalks might make people feel safer about Segways when they start seeing them in numbers (just our 1,77 euro cents). It's true, NYCewheels have an interest in this legislation but we don't think they should be dismissed just because of this, they gave us the impression of being really committed to traffic, noise and pollution reduction. (they don't sell gas scooters!) well, thanks for the feedback, anyway.

[BruceWright]

My take:

Allies are allies. Take all the allies you can get.

If the law is draconian, fight the law itself, don't squabble amongst two groups of potential ban-ees. Don't say "ban them, not us" if the law is banning anyone unfairly.

After all, all the banners need to do is divide and conquer.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[SegwayUtah]

yogi, Bruce, I'll agree with that.

[statmed]

Sometimes I get dizzy with the way some on this web site change their views almost on a daily basis.

Someone posts a message here to help with a proposed ban on electric scooters in NYC. Now, this person has never posted here before and all of a sudden he is our allie. Who is he and why is he here?

In the past didn't we have some from the bicycle groups act as allies. And they stabbed us in the back, didn't they, not all but one in particular.

The point here is that the Segway is not a bicycle and we don't want to be lumped in the same category as a bicycle. And the Segway is certainly not an electric scooter and we son't want to be lumped in the same category as a scooter. I've seen time and time again how some of the members here get upset when our Segways are called scooters. And now, all of a sudden they are allies. They are not talking about helping legislation in NYC for Segways. They want legislation that will allow scooters access to be ridden on sidewalks. Some of these scooters cost a little over a hundred dollars and what do you think will happen if there are thousands of these on NYC sidewalks. It certainly won't help our cause.

In Yogi's message he starts off with this statement "we've been informed of a mounting adversity in NYC against scooters, following horrible accidents, which could result in having them banned from sidewalks. now, while this would be sensible for the gas scooters that caused the accidents". And this is true here in NYC. Why? Because these scooters are readily available and affordable to almost anyone who wants them. I've seen them on the streets riding against the traffic, I've seen them go through red lights, and I've seen them break just about every law there is. Do you want this on your sidewalks, I don't think so. I don't want them on mine

So let's get this right. Are they allies? NO! Do you want Segways in the same category as scooters that will be ridden by anyone with a hundred or two hundred dollars? NO! Do you want to assist in legislation that will only cause more problems for the Segway. NO!

Let's stop thinking these groups are here to help us. They aren't, they have their own cause, agenda and businesses to run. This forum is to talk about Segways, not for someone to come here and post messages about scooter legislation in NYC. Yogi is probably NYCE wheels, trying to get some sympathetic support here and unfortuntely he has.


Sorry for the rant, but with legislation up in the air here in NYC for Segways, I don't want this harming us.



H.M. Stern
statmed@optonline.net

I Love It When A Plan Comes Together (Hannibal Smith)

[verbl800]

I am a Segway lover, but just want to play Devil's Advocate here for a moment: why should Segway's be allowed on NY sidewalks, but not other electric scooters? If another type of scooter has the same or smaller footprint, why would we not want those allowed, but do think it's OK for the Segway to be ridden? There's obviously the speed issue, but assuming for a moment that other electric scooters have a similar or slightly higher top speed, I can't see that big a difference functionally between our Segways and other folks' electric scooters. Sure, our Segways are technologically superior, but in the end, both types of devices are functionally equivelant.

I'm not specifically saying that's the way I feel, just curious as to how other people's opinions are formed.

[pam]

Somehow I don't think they're functionally equivalent. Can an electric scooter stop on a dime and balance on two wheels while stopped? Does the electric scooter truly have a footprint as small as a Segway?

I'm not coming in on whether we should support or remain distanced (which is not really the same thing as actively not supporting), I'm just questioning the statement that the two types of transportation are functionally equivalent. The only equivalency I can see is that they both get you from one place to another and both use electricity vs gasoline powered engines.
Pam

[Neelix]

quote:Originally posted by pam

Somehow I don't think they're functionally equivalent. Can an electric scooter stop on a dime and balance on two wheels while stopped? Does the electric scooter truly have a footprint as small as a Segway?

I'm not coming in on whether we should support or remain distanced (which is not really the same thing as actively not supporting), I'm just questioning the statement that the two types of transportation are functionally equivalent. The only equivalency I can see is that they both get you from one place to another and both use electricity vs gasoline powered engines.
Pam


And don't forget the huge difference in safety between scooters and Segways. Scooters are dangerous, whether you like that fact or not, it has been proven time and again. Segways are a bazillion times safer. They have a better safety record than most people's feet.

-------------------------
Fear not, for even though I come from the Forbidden City, I surely do not agree with the rules.
Chris Knight

[Stewbonz]

Segways are never free wheeling, no brakes or accelerator is necessary. Controlled by subtle body movements, takes no more room on the sidewalk than the person operating it and is good for the environment. Segways are designed to operate on sidewalks with fully redundant safety systems. You can buy 35 electric scooters for the price of a Segway. They are very different. Agreed?

JEFF JARVIS
Carmel Valley Ca

[verbl800]

Stewbonz -

I'll agree scooters are different because they have a brake/accelerator instead of the ability to move forward based on body movements. However, I don't see why this matters in this argument. Most of the electric scooters in question are about the width of a skateboard, and therefore take up *less* sidewalk room than a Seg. Being electric, environmental impact should be no more/less than a Seg. There don't need to be redundant systems on a scooter, since the worst than can happen is the engine breaks and the device stops. Segs need redundancy in order to ensure balance in all conditions, and the rider doesn't get injured in case of failure. Price doesn't seem to be a factor at all in this discussion.

I am referring to the "skateboard with a stick" scooters rather than the motorcycle type scooters. However, therein lies the problem. Can we expect NYC to legislate certain types of scooters and demarcate functions between each type? I would hope not as this would seem a terrible waste of legislative resources. We can only expect that there will be a single uniform decision regaridng all type of similar devices, with Segway being lumped into the generic electric scooter category.

Obviously, since I use Seg quite a bit, I wish they would be kept legal on NYC sidewalks (although I mostly use the west side bike path for my commute, NY'ers will know what I'm talking about). However, I also can't expect to be treated differently than someone who bought a generic scooter, simply because mine cost more. The Seg is in effect an electric scooter. Albeit a wonderful, fun, expensive scooter, it is in effect just a scooter and it is *my* belief that they should be legislated as such. Just my $0.02.

[fredkap]

The primary difference that a Segway has is its ability to handle in extremely crowded envirnments when a crowd is barely moving. The Segway acts similar to another human and can literally inch forward or twist out of the way of another. Disabled members of our community have used it at crowded cocktail parties without incident.

Fred

[SegwayUtah]

More than 40 state governments and our federal government have felt that there was a difference between electric scooters and Segway HTs in their performance characteristics: a large enough difference that they have their own legal classification for regulatory purposes (EPAMDs/PMMDs).

To echo other sentiments, here are just a few of the many operating characteristics which make a Segway HT safe to operate just about anywhere a pedestrian may go:

* Zero-degree turning radius
* Ability to move with same motions and instincts as a walking person
* Ability to start and stop on any legal grade or flat surface almost effortlessly
* Takes barely more room than the rider
* Moves at pedestrian speeds, with pedestrian characteristics
* Current price-point set so that most riders will be courteous, and will set the stage for proper riding etiquette.

That said, there are many places where electric scooters are also a viable transportation option. I don't think that they are viable in dense pedestrian environments in many instances, but they may very well be a valid device to share many sidewalks with pedestrians and electripeds.

Oh, there I go using that electriped word. Who came up with that? Dang, it's sticking!

Chris

[statmed]

Go to their web site and see what type of scooters they are talking about.

http://www.nycewheels.com/electric-scooter-electric-scooters.html

These are not the skateboard with a stick models. Some of these are the rolls royce/mack truck scooters that are much larger, bulkier and scarier than any Segway on the sidewalk.



H.M. Stern
statmed@optonline.net

I Love It When A Plan Comes Together (Hannibal Smith)

[BruceWright]

I think FredKap's cocktail party analogy is the best description of the difference. The Segway can operate in the middle of a black-tie affair (and has).
Those motorized razor-scooters can't.

The fundmental difference is manuverability. Those little guys don't have it.

Stopping, holding and turning when stopped. Going slowly and weaving in and out of people at walking speed with the same dexterity as a walker.

Someone said that the difference between a bike and a segway was like the difference between an airplane and a helecopter. Both fly, but other than that, they are functionally quite different.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[yogibear]

hello again. golly, we didn't mean to rub anyone the wrong way! perhaps we should have explained a few things: we've been reading this forum for some time since we'd like to buy a Segway someday and find it very instructive. we never posted before since we didn't feel we had anything particularly interesting to post. we are not NYCewheeels' undercover Italian branch. we're just two tourists who bought a scooter there. when they told us about the upcoming ban we thought we'd point it out to chat members. we felt, perhaps naively, that having electric scooters banned could lead the public , by extensive analogy, to consider other electric transportation devices as not appropriate on sidewalks - and conversely, that if they're allowed, people might conclude that even other less familiar electric devices are ok on sidewalks. should we ever buy a Segway we'd like to be able to use it on sidewalks when on holiday. that's our only stake in the issue. of course we hadn't considered many of the aspects that have been pointed out (that's why we think the forum is instructive!). what Pam said is very true, the two-wheeled scooters don't balance . we hadn't thought of that as ours has five wheels so it's "self-balancing" - not in a hi-tech way like Segway, more in a crude way like a box - we use it to overcome lack of balance caused by MS, same reason why we'd like to get a Segway one day. but it's true, the two-wheelers are different, even though most people probably can stop short on them using their legs to balance. it seems so much depends on how courteously the devices are used! we do hope Segways wil be increasingly accepted everywhere (and, if we may say so, if careful use of tiny and safe electric scooters will be accepted too, we'll also be happy). hope you'll excuse the lengthy post (well, you can always skip it). all the best to everyone.

[Lock]

quote:Originally posted by yogibear

[SNIP]...what to do to try to stop the ban from concerning electric vehicles. if you'd care to give it a look it might help towards a good cause. thanks!

Hiya Yogi
Thank you for your post. Segway folks (LLC and owners) are very familiar with dealing with legalities and getting acceptance, so the electric scooter situation might strike a chord.

It's not just NY. The media has regular reports these days about one jurisdiction or another around North America passing restrictive laws about scooters. Most of the complaints seem to originate around reckless driving and noise, and you are right, electric scooters are being swept up in the process.

If the Segway were gas powered, I believe there would be a completely different crowd aboard segwaychat. It's the same way with gas vs. electric scooters. Gas and electric scooter folk are not the same crowd or the same technology.

To the extent that Segway and scooter folks both see their vehicles as energy efficient and environment friendly alternatives to the private automobile, then I hope they can collaborate and perhaps support one another.

Regards
Lock


quote:Originally posted by statmed


Go to their web site and see what type of scooters they are talking about.
http://www.nycewheels.com/electric-scooter-electric-scooters.html
These are not the skateboard with a stick models. Some of these are the rolls royce/mack truck scooters that are much larger, bulkier and scarier than any Segway on the sidewalk.
H.M. Stern
statmed@optonline.net
I had a look at the NYCE site… would you point out please which ones were the scary ones to you? Were there any that were not scary looking? What was the scariest part about each scooter?

quote:Originally posted by Neelix

And don't forget the huge difference in safety between scooters and Segways. Scooters are dangerous, whether you like that fact or not, it has been proven time and again. Segways are a bazillion times safer. They have a better safety record than most people's feet.

I am actually looking for any stats and studies of the safety of scooters. The only one I am aware of is the 2000 study by the US CPSC which found that (unpowered) kick scooters were about twice as safe as bicycles…and had fewer emergency room visits than bikes or skateboards or bladers. I understand that this year the CPSC were to study powered scooters, but I’ve heard no word yet about their effort. What do you have please?

quote:Originally posted by statmed

… but I realized that there is a BIG difference between electric scooters and Segways and I don't want them lumped together in any type of legislation. There is an enormous difference between my $5,000 Segway and a $100.00 electric scooter.
H.M. Stern
statmed@optonline.net
I would not wish to lump my $1,000 scooter in with a $100 electric scooter either.

[Lock]

quote:Originally posted by statmed

Let's stop thinking these groups are here to help us. They aren't, they have their own cause, agenda and businesses to run. This forum is to talk about Segways, not for someone to come here and post messages about scooter legislation in NYC. Yogi is probably NYCE wheels, trying to get some sympathetic support here and unfortuntely he has.OK tough guy :)
guess I should just add then (to my previous msg), I'm just a guy, not a group. I have no cause and I don't keep agendas or run businesses anymore. I have however been enjoying commutes and trips around town on an electric scooter this year... on the sidewalks. I would like to see more personal electric vehicles in use.

quote:
Sorry for the rant, but with legislation up in the air here in NYC for Segways, I don't want this harming us.
H.M. Stern
statmed@optonline.netYou are forgiven. I think though, the pending legislation will harm all folks in a way, to the extent that it removes small and efficient vehicles from the realm of possibilities in urban transport.

I admire and enjoy the Segwaychat group, because it has a heightened awareness about these things, the legalities and getting acceptance. The larger world of electric scooter users is complacent by comparison.

Lock