Why do we need alternatives to cars?

[n/a]

Here is a part of Kamen's argument adressing the issue of space, energy, and traffic flow:

quote:"Once you get into the city," he says, "we not only haven't advanced transportation in 2,000 years, we've gone the other way. A study was recently done that showed that 100 years ago in London, the average speed to cross the city was 9 miles an hour, on horse and buggy. Last year, the average speed to cross London was 8 miles an hour. That's with subways and buses and taxicabs. That's because cities were not meant for great big vehicles. Cities were meant to be on a walking scale."
It doesn't take long before he ups the ante. He seems to almost be thinking aloud, marveling at the world's population growth, the fact that 800 million people are expected to move to cities in Asia in the next 30 years. What if, like Americans, they believe they deserve a car, or two, or three?

"Only 4 percent of the world owns cars, but they consume 75 percent of the fuel. If 4 percent of the rest of the world decided they wanted cars, environmentally, ecologically, financially, politically, it's not sustainable. But if we could build cities in the future that are compatible with people, and use a machine that takes one one-thousandth of the energy of a car on short trips, that's a big deal."
quote:"The real market for it is in the developing world. Over the next 20 years, China intends to build two new cities a year the size of Manhattan. So we're going to have 40 new Manhattans. ... A [Segway] would make a lot of sense."

http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2002-04-03/cover_news.html

[dupa]

Good stuff Lawrence, and Kamen is right, the earth will not support many car cultures like ours. The ice caps are already melting.

[Casey]

We Americans are the worlds worst when it comes to automobiles. I am 80 miles from the nearest large city, Tampa or Orlando, Florida. The only mass transit here is for the elderly, there are no busses but of course you can call a taxi. A taxi though is just another large automobile that must travel probably twice as far as a private car would to pick you up, take you where you are going, and return to its home base or to pick up another passenger.

In Tampa and Orlando though, there are many alternative modes of transportation, yet most everybody is traveling in a private passenger car, or worse a giant truck they like to label "SUV's". There are very few bicycles or even motorscooters in use compared to these two and three ton vehicles being used to carry one passenger a large percentage of the time.

My point is that we Americans are hooked on these behemouths, and I can't guess what it will take to break us from the addiction. It may be impossible to do that with any form of transportation, including Segway.

Frank

[ftropea]

And that's the big idea of course. One would argue then, why a Segway-HT and not a razor scooter or skateboard or bike? There are alternatives.. but are they really practical?

I once attempted to poll the TIQ forum in order gauge how many members had actually ridden an electric inline scooter in their life. I sincerely doubt that anyone who has could really imagine them being serious solutions to the problem you described Lawrence. Here is why...

Personally, I'm not what I consider "too old" or "too un-cool" (laugh) to ride a scooter. So with enthusiasm, I purchased an electric inline scooter and attempted to integrate one into my life. What a mistake! It couldn't handle city sidwalks... One time, an area of raised cement stopped the scooter in its tracks, sending me flying forward. I had abrasions on my wrists, elbows and knees. I stood up, brushed myself off and kept on riding. It happened again as I was attempting to ride off a curb. The wheels slipped and turned, and I was on the ground yet again... this time severely bruising my right hip. I got back up and said - I'll try to ride in the street on the smoother pavement... in the same manner as a Bike in NY might... After about 10 seconds of that, my guts gave out... I scared myself back onto the sidewalk. I folded up the scooter, shouldered it and walked gingerly the rest of the way.

My wife nearly burst into tears when she saw me later that day. I was forbidden to ride the scooter ever again, although I told her I thought all it needed was a few modifications (raising the height of the platform... changing the wheels to rubberized ones... some duct tape...) but she didn't say a word. When she doesn't talk - that's serious - so I had to put it away for good.

Obviously not everyone gets hurt on these things. But under the conditions I tried to use one, and with the care and caution that I used - I challenge anyone who has ever ridden them to seriously come here and say that these are serious alternatives to cars or buses - serious alternatives for the average man or woman - serious alternatives that would mix well with pedestrian traffic.

Hardly. I challenge anyone with a credible reputation to make that claim.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea
----------------------------------
Ginger : Robotics :: PC : Computers

[Seeker]

It's hard to predict at this point how popular Segways will become. Should they ever become quite popular, and alot of people began travelling by Segway, rather than by car , I wonder if it might work to take roads which had 2 lanes of traffic in each direction, and devote one of the lanes to Segways. Or possibly we will at some point see elevated roadways...transporting many Seggers to their destinations!! Can you picture it now ? Such roads would certainly require less weight bearing capabilities than our currrent bridges ( unless the Segway traffic density became quite high)

As far as short term solutions such as creating more sidewalks, or widening existing sidewalks, I guess they do say this is easier to do, than building new roadways.

Seeker

[Casey]

Some good points Seeker. I had a thread on GingerChat last year about automated roadways for Segway's and similar vehicles. Segways would take up so little space that a 5 foot wide paved road would accomadate them in the fashion it takes a 24 foot wide road to accomadate two lanes of cars and trucks. I have a feeling that is well into the future if it happens, because of the reluctance of people to pay taxes for anything.

Your point about lighter weight construction is also good. When you compare an 80 pound Segway plus 250 pound rider at 330 pounds, it is about one tenth the weight of a moderate sized car, such as a Camry. And there would be none of the terrible shaking bridges suffer from the pounding of semi trucks.

Frank

[charmed]

I'm hopeful that if Segway enjoys any degree of acceptence that it will foster the creation of more bike lanes. In places like Portland OR, there is an ongoing movement to not only add bike lanes, but also widen sidewalks. Where there are already concessions to making urban areas bike and pedestrian friendly, the Segway should have the least amount of problems fitting in.

[Casey]

We have some great new paved bike paths here that would be ideal for Segways. They are very lightly used, and seperated from the highway by several feet. As you say, a great solution. And I would think any law allowing Segways on sidewalks would also allow them on bike paths.

Frank

[Seeker]

Here's one possible way in which I could see governments playing a part in the development of roadway systems for Segways :

- Let's assume first of all that federal governments recognized the value of operating Segways, because of their superior efficiency, and decreased emissions.
- Then what if federal governments provided extra funding to states which had approved Segways for sidewalk use
-These states would then be able to provide municipalities with money to contribute towards the widening of existing sidewalks, or creation of new sidewalks/Segway-HT paths


Overall, the country would be able to say that it was addressing the expectations of the Kyoto protocol, and this would do something to diminish the pressures being brought to bear on countries, which are being characterized in the media as 'environmentally disinterested'

Seeker
p.s. In principle, if governments gave special monies to states which had granted approval to Segway for sidewalk use, this would have to be part of a larger approach to funding 'Green technologies'; otherwise it could come across that the federal government was officially sanctioning/promoting Segways on sidewalks, which it might not be prepared to do.

[Antagony]

I have been fascinated by the ginger mystery and Segway saga for some time now. I may even have been mesmerized by all the hype surrounding it. New technology fascinates me as it does many of us on the discussion forums. But lets not forget that there are many paths to Rome.

quote:Here is a part of Kamen's argument adressing the issue of space, energy, and traffic flow:


Lawrence aren't you being a little naive? Ofcourse Kamen and his people will be able to provide all sorts of arguments showing that automobiles are an unnecessary waste of space and energy in densely populated areas. Sure they polute. Sure they waste a lot of fuel crawling along at 8 mph in the streets of London and New York. But does that make Segway the ideal solution or the only solution towards? Hardly. Kamen is an inventor and a business man. He thinks of technological solutions to problems that may be solved in any number of ways. His vision of the cities of the world populated mostly by Segways could provide solutions if it works out, but so could any number of other solutions. Most of the alternative solutions would require the same essential ingredients ie., getting people to change their ways of thinking about the kind of world they want to live in. That is the true challenge. If an other charismatic visionary spent hundreds of thousand of dollars developing these solutions and had some powerful backers to lobby legislators surely s/he could find ways of achieving the same goals. Here are some examples from the top of my head:

- developing incentives to use non-polluting vehicles
- developing incentives to use car pools
- working towards increased use of mass transport systems
- building more sidewalks and bikepaths
- reconsidering the design of new cities that will be built to accomodate the migration into cities
- developing roller blades and bikes with better stability and manouverability for use among pedestrians

None of these solutions are new or spectacular. The efforts made to implement such solutions may have been half hearted in my opinion. People have rejected them because of lack of success with having them change the ways of thinking.

Kamen has chosen a technological solution. Perhaps the self-balancing scooter and the pleasure of riding one will have mass appeal and everybody will eventually want one, but let's not forget all the other potential solutions that are avaiable to us.

[Seeker]

Hi Antagony,

Welcome to the forum ! Thanks for the ideas you've advanced.

I, like you, and I believe many others, see Segway as just part of 'The Solution'. But I believe it's an important part. What seems to separate Kamen's efforts from many others, is that he has both articulated a vision- and has also taken steps to see it take shape.

I see Kamen's technology as paving the way for other approaches, such as the ones you've mentioned. When we begin seeing people riding around on Segways, I think this will provide a tangible representation that we are, as a society, making the development of environmentally compatible technologies, a priority.

Seeker

[n/a]

Here is another automobile related statistic:

quote:Eighty percent of car trips are fewer than five miles and that contributes to congestion and pollution, Cohen said.

http://www.journalnow.com/wsj/news/MGBY6T2EU5D.html

I dont know where the statistic comes from or whether it is an international statistic, even so, if true, those that drive cars and are averse to walking or cycling, could reduce the use of their cars by a significant amount. The calculation at the Segway site are based on the 50% figure, ie., replacing half the car trips which are less than 3 mile long trips. It would be interesting to try to figure out how much pollution, congestion, wear and tear, and accidents cold be prevented if car trips in cities would be reduced if Segways eventually replaced 50% of the short car trips. The figure would surely be higher than 50% with regard to fuel consumption at least, since cars get the best mileage at highway speeds.

[Seg-wager]

That's a stunning assessment when you look at the big picture! Thanks, Lawrence.