First Impressions - rode it

[Sidewinder]

Well, it's pretty high (you tower over everyone!). A definite traffic stopper, lots of gawkers. Fairly easy to manage with no previous experience (been a semi-pro skateboarder though). Turns on a dime, handles cracks in the sidewalk okay. Not very fast, kind of "bucks" when you get off (gotta watch out for the shins!). Heavy, maybe 80 lbs. but it's going to be easy to steal. Kind of intimidating on crowded sidewalks - women with strollers jump out of the way. Quiet as can be - do they need to build in a sound? People can't hear it behind them - spooked. Paint flaking a bit - probably worth $800 realistically. Overall, I'd give it a B-. I'd make several improvements to it, make the handbar completely telescopic for easy storage and easy parking - put a nice chimed horn on it, or amybe a melodic noise - built in MP3 player? Nav. system? GPS? Now we're talkin'.

[pt]

it adds 8" to your height. when you say "not fast" it can go up to 12.5mph, it was most likely on the black key (slow)- it sounds like you're not a good candiate for a ht or have had proper training, so i'm glad you didn't have it another mode. if it "bucked" you may have not paid attention to how to get on and off properly. "easy to steal"- only if you're careless. paint flaking? it's plastic, there isn't any paint. $800? you should do a little research to see what the components are.

cheers,
pt

quote:Originally posted by Sidewinder

Well, it's pretty high (you tower over everyone!). A definite traffic stopper, lots of gawkers. Fairly easy to manage with no previous experience (been a semi-pro skateboarder though). Turns on a dime, handles cracks in the sidewalk okay. Not very fast, kind of "bucks" when you get off (gotta watch out for the shins!). Heavy, maybe 80 lbs. but it's going to be easy to steal. Kind of intimidating on crowded sidewalks - women with strollers jump out of the way. Quiet as can be - do they need to build in a sound? People can't hear it behind them - spooked. Paint flaking a bit - probably worth $800 realistically. Overall, I'd give it a B-. I'd make several improvements to it, make the handbar completely telescopic for easy storage and easy parking - put a nice chimed horn on it, or amybe a melodic noise - built in MP3 player? Nav. system? GPS? Now we're talkin'.


http://www.bookofseg.com

[Sidewinder]

Yeah, it's cool. 12.5 mph is not fast - I bet it could do 15mph. I got off as recommended, one foot at a time. It actually bucked after I was off. Not for everyone - motorcycle dirt bike guy I was with was a wuss and wouldn't try it, probably worried that the twins he was carrying would throw off his balance and he'd bust a hip. Believe me, as an owner of several expensive racing bikes, people will gnaw through steel with their rotting teeth to lift something worth $5Large - in broad daylight no less. Must be the silver plastic scratching and turning white (by the display)?. Still not a $5k value - will be knocked off somehow by the Koreans for 800 bugg$ (if it's successful).
I'd like to know how they're going to sell these things - you can't just ship 'em out and say "hop on!" - unless they come with a med/dental/catastrophic life plan included for $5k. Should be sold with certification only.

[pt]

quote:Originally posted by SidewinderYeah, it's cool. 12.5 mph is not fast - I bet it could do 15mph.

no, it actually can't, it will actually "push back" if you try to go faster, 12.5 mph is -fast- for what it was designed for, sure it could go faster, but that is what it was designed to do. that speed gets me everywhere i need to quickly and safely. i'm glad it doesn't go fast, this isn't a skateboard or "expensive racing bike" you might want to stick to those.

quote:Originally posted by SidewinderI got off as recommended, one foot at a time. It actually bucked after I was off.

like i said, you may have not followed directions, when you get off you need to keep the platform level. this is why training is required before you can have a unit.

quote:Originally posted by SidewinderNot for everyone - motorcycle dirt bike guy I was with was a wuss and wouldn't try it, probably worried that the twins he was carrying would throw off his balance and he'd bust a hip. Believe me, as an owner of several expensive racing bikes, people will gnaw through steel with their rotting teeth to lift something worth $5Large - in broad daylight no less.

if someone is motivated enough, they'll steal anything. i happen to live in one of the lowest crime areas in the usa, and i think i have enough common sense to avoid theft, and insurance is a great thing to have.

quote:Originally posted by SidewinderMust be the silver plastic scratching and turning white (by the display)?. Still not a $5k value - will be knocked off somehow by the Koreans for 800 bugg$ (if it's successful).

that's an interesting opinion, i think it's worth more than $5k. knock-offs are not likely. your comments are borderline, you might want to adjust the tone a bit.

quote:Originally posted by SidewinderI'd like to know how they're going to sell these things - you can't just ship 'em out and say "hop on!" - unless they come with a med/dental/catastrophic life plan included for $5k. Should be sold with certification only.

you should read the amazon pre-order site, you need proper training before you can get a unit.

this isn't for you it sounds like, perhaps move on.

cheers,
pt

http://www.bookofseg.com

[np]

This is a strange one. First he says he does not like the Segway then he tries to sell a couple, allegedly owned by his friend.

http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=719

[steve1501]

Where is the gray market for Segways coming from? We have the one being sold on EBAY, and now NP says that Sidewinder has access to a few for sale. I suspect that the ones for sale are early prototypes of the p series. In one of the threads, didn't someone say that PT's training video on book of seg.com had p series in the background?

[bicycledriver]

quote:Originally posted by pt

quote:Originally posted by SidewinderYeah, it's cool. 12.5 mph is not fast - I bet it could do 15mph.

no, it actually can't, it will actually "push back" if you try to go faster, 12.5 mph is -fast- for what it was designed for, sure it could go faster, but that is what it was designed to do.


The Segway hardware is capable of 18 mph+. Segway LLC originally intended to distribute them with the control software enabled for 18 mph and announced this speed capability to the public in December 2001 [1, 2]. Only when the pedestrian advocacy groups started complaining did Segway drop the software-based speed limiter to 12.5 mph on the red key and claim a slower speed capability. Nothing is stopping Segway LLC from restoring the 18 mph software limit if they see a compelling business interest in doing so.

Regards,
Steve Goodridge

[1] "Its average speed is 8 mph, but it can travel up to 17 or 18 mph." Lisa Wangness, Concord Monitor, Tuesday, December 4, 2001.

[2] "The Segway's two batteries recharge in four to five hours, and a charge will take you 10 to 15 miles with a top speed of about 18 miles per hour", Marsha Walton, CNN Sci-Tech, January 16, 2002.

[GlideMaster]

Nope we said the ones in the background were several hundred i-series Segways.

The p-series??? If you wish upon a star.

quote:Originally posted by steve1501

Where is the gray market for Segways coming from? We have the one being sold on EBAY, and now NP says that Sidewinder has access to a few for sale. I suspect that the ones for sale are early prototypes of the p series. In one of the threads, didn't someone say that PT's training video on book of seg.com had p series in the background?

[charmed]

Steve

quoting the media doesn't go very far in proving anything, particularly going back as far as last year at this time.

While you may be right with your speed limit theories, I would need more than your footnotes to prove it.

Nothing personal, I have just read too many pieces that get the simplest facts wrong.

[steve1501]

Charmed - Did I get misquoted? I recited no speed limit theories.

Steve

[charmed]

Sorry, Steve. I should have been more clear. I was addressing S Goodridge, and his assertion that the Segway HT is actually designed to go 18mph and is limited to 12.5 only by the coded key.

See posts above....

[steve1501]

I agree with Charmed. There is so much accurate information being released about a Segway right now, especially with first hand information being relayed by members of the illustrious 30, that it would be a mistake to rely on press releases that are nearly a year old.

[Brooster]

The Illustrious 30! I like it!

Brooster

[GlideMaster]

It will go faster than 12.5 if programed to do so. It's all in the chips. But it would probably have to be one of the armed forces asking to have it programed for a higher speed.


quote:Originally posted by charmed

Sorry, Steve. I should have been more clear. I was addressing S Goodridge, and his assertion that the Segway HT is actually designed to go 18mph and is limited to 12.5 only by the coded key.

See posts above....

[bicycledriver]

quote:Originally posted by charmed
quoting the media doesn't go very far in proving anything, particularly going back as far as last year at this time.

While you may be right with your speed limit theories, I would need more than your footnotes to prove it.

Nothing personal, I have just read too many pieces that get the simplest facts wrong.


I quoted two separate news sources, one local and one national, that got their information directly from Segway LLC just after the Segway was unveiled. Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate an early press release containing the 18 mph number, if one existed. Chat groups discussing the Ginger/It technology from early on described the top speed as being about 18-20 mph.

The only smoking gun I have directly from Segway LLC is their description of how the Segway allows access to 50 times greater ground in a given amount of time:

"Using Segway HT instead of walking increases the area you can cover 50-fold—whether you're working or running errands."

The above quote came directly from their site web page at
http://www.segway.com/segway/save_time.html as it existed this summer (2002). However, they have changed the text on this web page recently to remove this statement, since it dates back to before their attempts to downplay the Segway's top speed. I suspect that individuals at Segway LLC read my article and are doing damage control. However, I took a screenshot of the original web page and will put the bitmap on my web site for you to see if you are interested.

Since the reachable area is proportional to the square of the travel speed, this means the Segway speed must be more than seven times walking speed, or about 18 miles per hour. And since braking distance increases in proportion to the square of travel speed, the braking distance of the Segway is 50 times that of a person walking.

Regards,
Steven Goodridge (Who does think the Segway is a useful device and deserves to have its fair shot in the transportation marketplace)

[bicycledriver]

Here is the google cache of the save_time web page from before Segway LLC changed the text:

[Sorry - the long URL did not get posted properly. Instead, follow the instructions below.]

To find this I just do a google search for the text of the URL name
http://www.segway.com/segway/save_time.html
and select "Show Google's cache of www.segway.com/segway/save_time.html"

-Steve Goodridge

[jwood]

Interesting thread! This is one of the 'illustrious 30' here and I have a few comments about the speed question. After riding in the real world for only a couple of days, I find myself hitting what Segway calls the 'speed limiter' quite often. What happens is that the control shaft pushes back at you to slow you down.

I can just 'feel' that the Segway is designed to be able to go faster, and I'm sure that it has been limited to 12.5 mph for safety reasons. It's really a matter of responsible use. I don't think that the difference between 12 and 18 mph is that big a deal, and it sure feels like you're going at a pretty good clip at the current limit.

Maybe someday, they'll up the limit after Segways become more commonplace. I would love the upgrade, but I'm not going to complain. The ride is excellent as is, and who am I to question Segway's safety decisions?

[BruceWright]

I think it's silly to discuss the speeds of prototype versions of the Segway before they were a product and before they were for sale.

Part of the speed limitations of the device have to do with the processing limitations of the onboard computers. Faster travel means faster calculations to maintain balance. Hitting a curb at 20 MPH requires quicker response than hitting it at 12.

Thousands of hours of testing also entered into the setting of the top speed at least as much as your posts did! ;)

[bicycledriver]

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright
Part of the speed limitations of the device have to do with the processing limitations of the onboard computers. Faster travel means faster calculations to maintain balance. Hitting a curb at 20 MPH requires quicker response than hitting it at 12.


The speed of the microcontrollers is not a factor in the response capabilities of the Segway. I have developed many microcontroller based motor control systems for robotics and vehicle applications; computer speed is never an issue as long as one chooses the right microcontroller (and fast-enough microcontrollers are cheap). Mass, rotational inertia, motor strength, power limitations, sensor response, etc. can limit the system response time, however.

Steven G. Goodridge, Ph.D. (electrical engineering)

[jgrohol]

You'll notice you never saw Segway quoted as saying this was the top speed of the units. There's a reason for it-- we never made that claim. What happened is what often happens when journalists are rushed and don't fact check their stories before printing them. They confused two numbers: the advertised range at the time (our ideal range number, 17 or 18 miles) and top speed (which has always been 12.5 MPH). I have all of the site drafts from before launch, and nowhere did we ever have a number higher than 12.5 MPH-- that has always been our top speed for a Segway HT.

[BruceWright]

If microprocessor speed isn't a factor in the device, why do they have 10 or so of them in a Segway? Isn't it described as having more computing power than a top of the line PC? Those computers are busily running something, and I don't think it's just the happy face lcd!

[RedKey]

There are 10 DSPs (Digital Signal Processors).
They are not as general purpose as a Pentium 4, so it's not really fair to compare to desktop computers (even though Dean did).

One DSP for each gyro on both controller boards.
5 gyros x 2 controllers = 10 DSP

The BSA (balance sensor assembly which contains the 5 gyros) connects to both the A and the B controller boards for redundancy. The controller boards run at 10mhz if I remember right- but I could be wrong.
Ooops. I'm getting into the design and way off topic. Sorry bout that.

RedKey

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright

If microprocessor speed isn't a factor in the device, why do they have 10 or so of them in a Segway? Isn't it described as having more computing power than a top of the line PC? Those computers are busily running something, and I don't think it's just the happy face lcd!

[BruceWright]

Interesting information. So the two controller boards are what are taking the data from the DSP's and computing the action the motors will take. They each evaluate 10 dsp's and pulse the motors a hundred times a second.

We know that overly agressive riding will make the sensors "dizzy", which makes the segway lower its performance until things improve. A faster Segway might get dizzier faster, or get knocked around more. At least in that circumstance we would hit a hardware limit of the sensors and processors, even though the motors aren't pushed to their limit.

[charmed]

quote:Originally posted by jgrohol

You'll notice you never saw Segway quoted as saying this was the top speed of the units. There's a reason for it-- we never made that claim. What happened is what often happens when journalists are rushed and don't fact check their stories before printing them. They confused two numbers: the advertised range at the time (our ideal range number, 17 or 18 miles) and top speed (which has always been 12.5 MPH). I have all of the site drafts from before launch, and nowhere did we ever have a number higher than 12.5 MPH-- that has always been our top speed for a Segway HT.


Thanks, jgrohol, for piping in here. Over the last two years reading the online boards, I have seen links to literally hundreds of media stories on the 'tech' behind Segway. Precious few have gotten everything right. Just today, I saw a story from 12/19 complaining about the $8000.00 price.

One must take media info with a grain of salt, especially with products such as this. If they are going to bump up the speed, or range, or weight, or whatever, the journalist should, at the very least, offer a plausible explanation why his figures vary with the company's figures.

charmed

[stevew]

here's another way to estimate top speed. From the amazon segway backgrounder: Motor designed for 8000 RPM, 24:1 gearbox. I'm guessing wheel diameter about 19". This would multiply out to about 18-19 MPH.

[steve1501]

jgrohol - I concur with Charmed and also appreciate your imput. I am also glad that to know that the good folks at Segway are monitoring this board and are able to feel the excitement brewing over the delivery of the units in the next few months. I feel like I am at a Tennessee Titans football game sensing the roar of the crowds as the team comes on the field.

[BruceWright]

Stevew,
some of that extra torque is headroom reserved for the machine for the sake of safety. If it was going the full speed of the motors, it wouldn't be able to hold you upright when it hit a bump.

[GlideMaster]

Hi jwood, this is something I once stated about the 12.5 speed a while back.

When it comes to the Segway and speed I've never really been able to tell what my exact speed is. As you know when you reach the speed limit programmed into a particular key the Segway will "move toward you." When the Segway begins to move toward you are you at the max or approaching the max? "When you are operating below the speed limit, the handlebar stays in approximately the same place." I don't see how anyone could accurately measure the stopping distance of a Segway. You just don't know what speed you're at when the "Speed Limiter" kicks in. I know when it rears back it doesn’t feel like 12.5 MPH. I've always noticed that the Segway the King of Balance uses never seems to rear back when he's ridding. I can tell he is going more than 15 MPH sometimes and yet his Segway always stays in the same safe speed position. I've watched him closely every time I see a piece and he's ridding and I can tell the characteristics of his Segway are a little more high performance. I don't care what mathematical equation anyone uses it cannot give an accurate stopping distance of a Segway. Now it may be able to give an approximate range. It has never taken me more than five feet to stop. But then again it's according to how aggressive you want your stop to be. If you pull back hard and fast you can make some very short stops; almost on a dime. But as I always say (see my topic on safety slogans) and remember the 3Rs. No it's not reading, righting and rithmetic either.

Hope this helps Frank. Wonder what the stopping distances of a bike are. Does a bike have a "Speed Limiter?" I guess it's called a Human. You could say the same for the Segway.

quote:Originally posted by jwood

Interesting thread! This is one of the 'illustrious 30' here and I have a few comments about the speed question. After riding in the real world for only a couple of days, I find myself hitting what Segway calls the 'speed limiter' quite often. What happens is that the control shaft pushes back at you to slow you down.

I can just 'feel' that the Segway is designed to be able to go faster, and I'm sure that it has been limited to 12.5 mph for safety reasons. It's really a matter of responsible use. I don't think that the difference between 12 and 18 mph is that big a deal, and it sure feels like you're going at a pretty good clip at the current limit.

Maybe someday, they'll up the limit after Segways become more commonplace. I would love the upgrade, but I'm not going to complain. The ride is excellent as is, and who am I to question Segway's safety decisions?

[stevew]

Good point BruceWright.
Max motor RPM doesn't give max speed unless that motors can deliver enough torque at that speed. That's horsepower. I believe I read the
ht motors can deliver 2HP but don't for how long before they overheat.

[BruceWright]

The Segway representative at the Ticket to Ride event said 4 horsepower.

[BBBix]

In the thread 'Segway Keys,' there was a discussion of a rumored 'Blue Key' that only Kamen carried that could unlock the full potential of the Segway.

Bill B.

"Those who think that they know everything are especially annoying to those of us who do." ;)

[BruceWright]

Is that the one that makes it hover?

[Blinky]

stevew writes,
quote:Good point BruceWright.
Max motor RPM doesn't give max speed unless that motors can deliver enough torque at that speed. That's horsepower. I believe I read the
ht motors can deliver 2HP but don't for how long before they overheat.
Its interesting that you say "2hp" regarding the motors on the Segway. I recall reading somewhere during one of my many Segway internet searches that it is only a single horse power engine.

I just tried to find the link to that bit of information, but could not find it. I will keep you updated once I do find it ;).

[BBBix]

I think that 2 hp is more than what one of those motors can generate. Perhaps it is 2 hp once it is geared down.

Bill B.

"Those who think that they know everything are especially annoying to those of us who do." ;)

[jgassor]

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright

The Segway representative at the Ticket to Ride event said 4 horsepower.


I too was told it was 4hp by the trainer at the TTR. Silly question but if you have two independent 2hp motors, does that equate to 4hp? I may be revealing my ignorance of motors here

Jim

Live life to the full, get Tivo and get a Segway! http://segway.gassor.com

[stevew]

From The Amazon.com "Science of the Segway" article: Each motor is capable of maintaining a power output of 1.5 kilowatts--that's 2 horsepower!"
Hence 4 HP total makes sense.
Gearing down gives you more torque but horsepower is same. More torque means you'll accelerate faster up to max speed and climb steeper hills.
Interesting to note: running at 4 HP continuously would reduce travel time to about 20 minutes, since HT carries about 1 Kilowatthour of battery energy. (120 of what I think are 10 AH D-cells) Anybody else know differently?