Segway backlash? [Archive]

BruceWright

12-12-2002, 02:55 AM

I've noticed in a few of my co-workers an almost hostile reaction to the idea of the Segway. Their arguments fall in this order:

1. I have kids, this shouldn't be on the sidewalk.
2. Americans are too fat, they need to exercize.
3. It is a waste of money.

They start with the first one, then move down. I know my response to each of those, and we've gone over how safe they are, and how PT, for example MAKES UP more exercise time with his commute, etc.

What I'm wondering about more is the mindset that makes these the first topics for these people (although perhaps they think that since I'm firmly in the positive camp, they can jump right to the negative...). And also, what can we or Segway LLC do to curb this negativity. Perhaps a show on Dateline about how an elderly man can take long walks with his grandchildren. Something showing the nice side of Segway rather than let the mental picture continue to be painted by those who describe the Human Transporter as a "Two-Wheeled Bullet."

My friend's arguments aren't logical, and I point out to them that Bicycles are allowed on sidewalks in our city, and they go faster and hit with more force than a Segway, and there are millions of bicycles in Los Angeles, and about 3 Segways.

Telling him that doesn't calm him, though. People afraid of technological change isn't new.... is there a way we can make it friendlier, though? Press releases that 32 states have enacted lightspeed Sidewalk approval make these folks nervous that they will soon be pushed off the sidewalk by hundreds of motorized vehicles.

I have seen Segways operated in crowds, and I know they are safe. I know that I can operate my (eventual, imaginary) Segway slowly and safely to show people that they are not to be feared.

But the image problem... it does exist, and ignoring it doesn't help. There are a lot of people who object to the Segway on principle, sight unseen. A lot.

Thoughts?

12-12-2002, 03:06 AM

i've had the opposite reaction. friends, family and co-workers see the value of the segway ht. they're thrilled that this will be available soon, more people won't be driving, they know i'm fit, they know i'm giving up a car for this.

the best thing (and perhaps the only thing) we can all do is make sure we do a great job as the first ambassadors with the ht's in our geographies.

what we do will be more important than what we say.

cheers,
pt

http://www.bookofseg.com

RobbW

12-12-2002, 03:41 AM

I would have to echo PT's comments and say that everyone I have talked to can hardly wait to take a test drive. ...and I'm anxious to give them one because I am determined to get the word out!!

It's crazy to think that some people see the Segway as if it were made to be used as some kind of weapon of mass destruction. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not plunking down this type of money to take out pedestrians in new and unusual ways.

Out here in LA, I have put down my $5K because I believe in this groundbreaking new invention that can reduce street congestion, pollution, and just flat out make life easier for a lot of commuters. It seems so clear to me that technology like this should be celebrated and embraced. In fact, the 5K is fairly meaningless to me, because I know that over a few years, I'm going to have the equivalent of a free Segway when I can save putting 90 miles a day on my car each work day. (not even counting $40 a month gas savings vs. train pass)

At the end of the day, I just want to leave my car at home, and have a new way to get to work that is enjoyable as well as practical. You know what, I'm not even afraid to say it: I want to use my Segway for frivolous unneccesary rides as well!! I'm in awe of the genius of Dean Kamen and if nothing else, I'm thinking that sometime between March and July, he will have changed a lot of lives for the better.

Ultimately, I think it's up to all of us to be the ambassadors of a fantastic new technology through our own street etiquette. It will be what we do with the Segways, especially as the "pioneers" that will in turn, dictate future legislation.

I'm up to the challenge!!

RobbW (stepping down from the soapbox and going to see what's in the fridge in Santa Clarita, CA)

bicycledriver

12-12-2002, 10:01 AM

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright
My friend's arguments aren't logical, and I point out to them that Bicycles are allowed on sidewalks in our city, and they go faster and hit with more force than a Segway, and there are millions of bicycles in Los Angeles, and about 3 Segways.

But bicyclists aren't *required* to operate on sidewalks, they are simply *allowed* on them. Cyclists who want to operate at speeds that might be dangerous to pedestrians, or in areas where there is significant pedestrian congestion, are free to operate in the roadway. This protects pedestrians. Most cyclists who operate at above pedestrian speed prefer to use the roadway. Over 80% of bicycling miles are cycled by "avid" road cyclists who do not use sidewalks except in rare circumstances near trip endpoints.

The allowance of bicycles on sidewalks in some communities was made for two reasons:

1. There are a few special cases where a very short (<1 block) trip on a sidewalk at slow speed saves a good deal of time over using the roadway - especially where block sizes are large and use of the roadway would require waiting for traffic signals. Utilitarian cyclists like having this option, but experienced cyclists point out that it must be exercised with great care and courtesy to others.

2. Some inexperienced cyclists and non-cyclists are under the false impression that sidewalks are safer for cycling than the roadway. Experienced road cyclists know better, but these experienced cyclists aren't going to waste their energy trying to legally prohibit others from acting on their taboos and superstitions.

Those communities that wish to discourage Segway use on sidewalks for the benefit of pedestrians should promote the rights and interests of drivers of light vehicles on roadways. Education and enforcement programs to promote safe and efficient roadway sharing by cyclists, Segwayists, and motorists are key. A carrot will be more effective than a stick.

Steven Goodridge

bicycledriver

12-12-2002, 10:12 AM

quote:Originally posted by bicycledriver
1. There are a few special cases where a very short (<1 block) trip on a sidewalk at slow speed saves a good deal of time over using the roadway - especially where block sizes are large and use of the roadway would require waiting for traffic signals.

Note that I do not mean to suggest that bicyclists on sidewalks should ever ignore traffic signals - I mean that some short pedestrian routes do not cross vehicular paths at all, such as across the top of a T intersection, or when traveling on the left side of the road within one block. In these cases switching from the sidewalk to the roadway to operate by vehicular rules would involve one or more intersections to get to the same destination. However, cyclists should not switch to and from sidewalk use in an unpredictable manner, as this confuses and upsets both drivers and pedestrians. When in doubt, stay on the roadway.

Steve Goodridge

JosephM

12-12-2002, 11:52 AM

Most critisim I found comes from their lack of knowledge of how it works. Most people think its a car that can ballance on two wheels. You go forward and it can run over anything. They miss the idea that that outside forces can stop it, such as a person, wind, etc. Once you get it and you let them ride it, they'll understand it more.

Some people still don't like computers, but over time, it's been accepted. I find the Segway will be the same.

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drucilla

12-12-2002, 03:23 PM

personally, I would rather a person on a segway came up behind me than a child on a skateboard. The segway will stop and I would still be standing, but the skateboard can go flying, without guideance ...

mind if my segway and i pass?

CyclistBuddy

12-12-2002, 05:41 PM

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright

I've noticed in a few of my co-workers an almost hostile reaction to the idea of the Segway. Their arguments fall in this order:

1. I have kids, this shouldn't be on the sidewalk.
2. Americans are too fat, they need to exercize.
3. It is a waste of money.

Thoughts?

#1. A good first impression will help the danger factor, but we are still debating this topic in other forums. And a segway will hit with more force than a bike going the same speed because they are much heavier. Speed differences almost don't make a difference because the segway is 2.5 - 3 times heavier than bikes(my bikes are 20-25 lbs where a segway is 70 lbs). a bike will have to travel 2.5 - 3 times faster than a segway (17*3=51 MPH!!) to hit with the same force.

#2. Someone who doesn't exercise isn't going to get thin by taking a segway everywhere, they also won't all of a sudden say they now have time and will exercise. someone who wants to exercise will find a way. Yes, americans are too fat and riding a bike is excellent exercise. Their argument here is for someone who currently walks everywhere or who is deciding to abandon their car, a segway purchase won't offer exercise where deciding to either bike or walk will. But if they don't have the will to exercise/walk/bike anyway, only they can help themselves.

#3. New technology is always more expensive than it should be. DVD and CD players were expensive, but now they have come down in price and have shown their usefulness. only time can tell for certain if the same will happen for the segway.

CyclistBuddy

12-12-2002, 05:49 PM

quote:Originally posted by RobbW

Out here in LA, I have put down my $5K because I believe in this groundbreaking new invention that can reduce street congestion, pollution, and just flat out make life easier for a lot of commuters. It seems so clear to me that technology like this should be celebrated and embraced. In fact, the 5K is fairly meaningless to me, because I know that over a few years, I'm going to have the equivalent of a free Segway when I can save putting 90 miles a day on my car each work day. (not even counting $40 a month gas savings vs. train pass)

My bike paid for itself in about 7 months. $80/month gas money (long 23 mile each way commute), $60/month bridge tolls, plus car maintenance savings (no use of car=no oil changes/ routine maintenance)
$50/month train pass is all I pay for now.

nonetheless, Good arguments, the same is true for anything that is not a car..
My issue with this is; how long will the segway last reliably before it has to be fixed. how much in maintenance costs? If it breaks down in a few years, you'll have to replace it or pay for it to be fixed. Worst case scenario, thats another $5G's every few years.

BruceWright

12-12-2002, 07:37 PM

Here's the Segway backlash I'm talking about.

Choice quotes from the ".....so you'd like to...." part of Amazon.com.

------------------------------------------------------------
But it may turn out to be a just another very expensive fad. Remember the Pet Rock? Don't turn into one! Keep your blood pressure down! Go for a walk!

This has got to be the biggest crock out there.

(Buy a bicycle and you) won't get laughed at by your neighbors and you won't get the "Now, how lazy can you get" or even better, "Get outta my way, freak" looks in Central Park as you get passed left and right by folks on mountain bikes, road bikes, or training-wheel bikes who paid a tenth of what you forked over for your Segway Human transporter.

So it is not a tool for the disabled, but simply for the lazy man about fat-ville.

Only bloaters will buy these things, which I imagine will eventually come with belly support wheels.

....I shall also take great pleasure in pushing Segwaying people who have just run over my foot under buses.

----------------------------------------------------------------

That's what I mean about hostility. For all the Segways they have sold on Amazon, the comments are running 2-1 against, and the against ones are quite hostile. Quite hostile.

There is a segway backlash when people openly gloat about shoving us under buses. Merely being nice doesn't save us from bus-pushers.

Hey PT, met any bus-pushers on your rides yet?

JosephM

12-12-2002, 08:32 PM

I think Amazon should think about removing this threating language. Killing and mameing people ARN'T appropreat for ANYONE. I don't care if it's to Al Queda or Segway users, it is unacceptable and shows how immature they are.

If anyone like this is reading my post, please don't post garbage like this. Argue, but don't insult using low life words and threats.

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Blinky

12-12-2002, 08:50 PM

BruceWright writes,
quote:What I'm wondering about more is the mindset that makes these the first topics for these people (although perhaps they think that since I'm firmly in the positive camp, they can jump right to the negative...). And also, what can we or Segway LLC do to curb this negativity. Perhaps a show on Dateline about how an elderly man can take long walks with his grandchildren. Something showing the nice side of Segway rather than let the mental picture continue to be painted by those who describe the Human Transporter as a "Two-Wheeled Bullet."
I didn't quote your whole post, but I would like to add to this one. You made some good points regarding your concerns and ideas of how to solve some of societies negative perception about the Segway. I believe most of it are from people who don't fully understand or have even seen a Segway in action.

Not saying that the Segway-HT has not faults, one day in the future we will have a better understanding of its impact(good or bad). To start changing ones opinion about the Segway will definitely start with early Segway buyers. We know this for sure. Examples like the one quoted above would be great too. Improved and effective promotion from the company would greatly enhance this goal.

As time goes on, I think the Segway will prevail with the majority of the publics opinion.

on the other hand,

Will Segway spend the money to do this? Will they only rely on owners to take the responsibility alone for this mission?

JosephM

12-12-2002, 08:55 PM

There will be one thing I know: we will be questioned and possibly harrased. Be prepared to answer the questions back.

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Blinky

12-12-2002, 09:00 PM

quote:There will be one thing I know: we will be questioned and possibly harrased. Be prepared to answer the questions back.
Yes. Keep something in mind to say to someone, and then Seg the heck out of there ;)

Burning Seg rubber _________[8]

CyclistBuddy

12-12-2002, 09:04 PM

quote:Originally posted by Joseph M

I think Amazon should think about removing this threating language. Killing and mameing people ARN'T appropreat for ANYONE. I don't care if it's to Al Queda or Segway users, it is unacceptable and shows how immature they are.

If anyone like this is reading my post, please don't post garbage like this. Argue, but don't insult using low life words and threats.

Visit our FIRST Help Boards at http://tucker.helix-designs.com//index.php !!

AMEN!!! I've tried to deal with someone like that before on a message board, but they told me to stick it and to "Get real".

Maybe people like that should visit a real "help" board to deal with whatever anger they have.

My personal bias towards bikes makes me understand their point, they are arguing against the Segway LLC marketing departments claims that the segway fills the void between walking and driving. It already exists, its called a bicycle. "Hey tubby, try walking for a living!" type of response. They are thinking about people getting on a segway for easily walkable distances (like to the street corner). Talking to you good folks has changed my attitude about the product.

My response to that hostility would be: ANYTHING which can replace fuel combustion engines is good, and the Segway is a player in that role. Its a good tool which has a place between people who want to stop driving, but not deal with public transportation nightmares or exercise on the way to work.

Blinky

12-12-2002, 09:12 PM

CyclistBuddy writes,
quote:My response to that hostility would be: ANYTHING which can replace fuel combustion engines is good, and the Segway is a player in that role. Its a good tool which has a place between people who want to stop driving, but not deal with public transportation nightmares or exercise on the way to work.
Good point. And not all people want to ride bikes, or can't ride bikes for whatever reason now will have another choice.

BruceWright

12-12-2002, 09:27 PM

I nominate our friend PT to be a poster boy for the Empowered Pedestrian. He's not like me at all. (I just want it for the fun of it!)

He is the epitome of the EP. His commute is improved. He is physically in shape. He replaced a car. It saves him money, it saves him time.

There should be more articles about him and people like him.

I know somebody here was wanting to get one to help their mobility because they suffer from MS. That is also a positive story that most people don't consider.

"Empowered Pedestrian" is a great phrase, and one that we need to use. It paints the correct picture, and shows what most of us here know.

It's all about getting people out of cars. Maybe not for the commute, but at least for the trips that are 5 miles or less.

Blinky

12-12-2002, 09:37 PM

quote:I nominate our friend PT to be a poster boy for the Empowered Pedestrian. He's not like me at all. (I just want it for the fun of it!)

He is the epitome of the EP. His commute is improved. He is physically in shape. He replaced a car. It saves him money, it saves him time.

There should be more articles about him and people like him.

I know somebody here was wanting to get one to help their mobility because they suffer from MS. That is also a positive story that most people don't consider.

"Empowered Pedestrian" is a great phrase, and one that we need to use. It paints the correct picture, and shows what most of us here know.

It's all about getting people out of cars. Maybe not for the commute, but at least for the trips that are 5 miles or less.
It is actually segwayusersgroup's daughter that has that condition. Honest mistake.

I don't disagree with there being more stories like the one's written about pt. I think it would better to hear a different kind of story every time. I don't want to be bored reading the same thing over and over.

Maybe a story about a person who could use the Segway-HT to get around easier because of their old age, or because of their handicap.

A story talking about how much pollution would decrease if everyone used bikes and Segway's in major cities.

How the Segway helps tourists get around Las Vegas's long casino strip...

BruceWright

12-12-2002, 09:38 PM

WOW!

This looks like a concerted effort by persons hostile to the Segway.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1578516730/ref=ase_flashenabled-20/103-3732851-2955824

This is the page for buying Steve Kemper's book, Code Name Ginger.

Down at the bottom, we get this lovely part:

Customers who shopped for this item also shopped for these items:

History of **** by Dominique Laporte, et al
The Natural History of the Rich by Richard Conniff
The Scoop on Poop by Wayne Lynch

That must take a lot of clicking back and forth to create this effect.

BruceWright

12-12-2002, 09:41 PM

The word above that the filter edited out is the four-letter word for doo-doo.

Nice.

Blinky

12-12-2002, 09:42 PM

Now that is a funny find. :)

CyclistBuddy

12-12-2002, 09:43 PM

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright
It's all about getting people out of cars. Maybe not for the commute, but at least for the trips that are 5 miles or less.

It has a max distance of 17 miles on one charge, correct? Will it replace walking distances which for a healthy person can be about 1-2 miles each way? I usually walk down to my downtown area for weekend breakfasts and back which is about 1 3/4 miles each way.

I think it will work best for healthy people for commutes up to 8 miles each way, but more than 1 mile. Anything shorter is an easy walk.

The reason I mention this is that I just reviewed a site which was anti-segway. Its arguments were about the use of segways on sidewalk areas (which I agree with), the wording of the legistlation allowing them on sidewalks which was specifically for the segway scooter, and how the segway may replace simple walking trips since it doesn't seem fit for anything else. So when you mention short trips of 5 miles or less, we have to start thinking..

Review if you wish
http://walksf.org/segways/index.htm

GlideMaster

12-12-2002, 10:10 PM

CyclistBuddy per the Book of Seg, ("preliminary user materials" version); Average range on full battery charge: 11 miles (typical) to 17 Miles (optimal). Actual mileage may vary. I've never been able to get 17.

<center>Enjoy The Glide and When You Segway, May The Glide Be With You.

Ahhh The World of Seg, and a good world it is.

Have Seg Will Travel
REMEMBER:
Responsible Riders Ride Segway
and
Segway Riders Ride Responsibly

Segway, The Mind Changer</center>

quote:Originally posted by CyclistBuddy

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright
It's all about getting people out of cars. Maybe not for the commute, but at least for the trips that are 5 miles or less.

It has a max distance of 17 miles on one charge, correct? Will it replace walking distances which for a healthy person can be about 1-2 miles each way? I usually walk down to my downtown area for weekend breakfasts and back which is about 1 3/4 miles each way.

I think it will work best for healthy people for commutes up to 8 miles each way, but more than 1 mile. Anything shorter is an easy walk.

The reason I mention this is that I just reviewed a site which was anti-segway. Its arguments were about the use of segways on sidewalk areas (which I agree with), the wording of the legistlation allowing them on sidewalks which was specifically for the segway scooter, and how the segway may replace simple walking trips since it doesn't seem fit for anything else. So when you mention short trips of 5 miles or less, we have to start thinking..

Review if you wish
http://walksf.org/segways/index.htm

JosephM

12-12-2002, 10:16 PM

Also, I visited the site and read it. I actually agree on a lot of things. First, I think Segways should be tested more and then the results made public. Second, I think that their banning is fair (since they still allow use in streets and multi-purpose roads). But their blatant attacks on Amazon.com are totaly uncalled for.

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CyclistBuddy

12-12-2002, 10:29 PM

quote:Originally posted by Joseph M

Also, I visited the site and read it. I actually agree on a lot of things. First, I think Segways should be tested more and then the results made public. Second, I think that their banning is fair (since they still allow use in streets and multi-purpose roads). But their blatant attacks on Amazon.com are totaly uncalled for.

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Just to clarify, you mean anti-segway people, not specifically walksf right?

JosephM

12-12-2002, 11:28 PM

walksf people. anti-segway people hate it's guts for all the wrong reasons, the walksf wants more testing.

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BruceWright

12-12-2002, 11:55 PM

quote:Originally posted by CyclistBuddy

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright
It's all about getting people out of cars. Maybe not for the commute, but at least for the trips that are 5 miles or less.

It has a max distance of 17 miles on one charge, correct? Will it replace walking distances which for a healthy person can be about 1-2 miles each way? I usually walk down to my downtown area for weekend breakfasts and back which is about 1 3/4 miles each way.

I think it will work best for healthy people for commutes up to 8 miles each way, but more than 1 mile. Anything shorter is an easy walk.

The reason I mention this is that I just reviewed a site which was anti-segway. Its arguments were about the use of segways on sidewalk areas (which I agree with), the wording of the legistlation allowing them on sidewalks which was specifically for the segway scooter, and how the segway may replace simple walking trips since it doesn't seem fit for anything else. So when you mention short trips of 5 miles or less, we have to start thinking..

Well first off, it should be my decision of whether I walk or drive or Segway or bike anywhere that's safe and legal. My big fat butt is my own responsibility (I weigh 140 pounds wet!).

For me, it doesn't replace a 1-2 mile walk to the corner store. It replaces a 1-2 mile drive to the corner store. Yes, I drive to the corner store, and no amount of guilt by fitter folks will make me change it. When I need milk for dinner that is cooking, I don't have the time to walk to the store. I'll take my fitness walk after dinner, not that it's anybody's business.

And that's something about the negative backlash that I find offensive. It's nobody's business how much I exercize.

Do they have a gas lawnmower, or do they push it? Do they bang rocks against their clothes or do they put them in a machine? Got an electric toothbrush? Why is short-distance transportation fair guilt-fodder for the healthies?

The post on Amazon says, "Take a walk instead, lower your blood pressure." Mine's 120/80, thank you, Amazon busybody. Am I fit enough not to have luddites up in my business?

If you have no diet-related health problems and don't smoke, what's the harm in a ride to the store? And more importantly, what makes me have to justify it to anyone else?

Casey

12-13-2002, 08:41 AM

I think some of you are over reacting to those hate comments. Every product ever made has had people that for some reason, or no reason at all put it down.

The best thing to do with those types is to ignore them and they will eventually go away. Of course if you enjoy their taunting you can respond to them and they will keep it up.

JosephM

12-13-2002, 09:57 AM

quote:Originally posted by Casey

I think some of you are over reacting to those hate comments. Every product ever made has had people that for some reason, or no reason at all put it down.

The best thing to do with those types is to ignore them and they will eventually go away. Of course if you enjoy their taunting you can respond to them and they will keep it up.

I don't think we're overacting if they threaten us to push us under a bus.

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