Methanol Fuel Cells? Could it be used w/HT's?

[god1138]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/headline/tech/1973594

This technology sounds GREAT -- could it be used with the Segway eventually? Apparently, these fuel cells can be used ten times longer than lithium-ion batteries and then you'd be able to refill them or replace them instead of recharging!

Certainly, this poses interesting questions... and not any real answers for now!

-Robert
"BORN TO GLIDE"

[pt]

i glide past a place each day that used to "fill up" (the gas station). i can't say i look forward to refilling my ht with anything other than plugging it in for pennies per year and less with my solar panels. i'm also not looking forward to giving the folks who make my laptop more money for cartridges like i need to for my printer.

all that said, if and when it starts really happening (we've heard about fuel cells for years now) i'll be the first to try'em :-]

cheers,
pt

[ElectraGlide]

PT , you'll be the "second" to try em ;)!! Bring on the fuel cells !!

Steve

[Peter iNova]

Of all the schemes people have been investigating, this one is a major Big Deal. By using a same-size fuel cell as the current batteries some features would have to be compromised (I'm thinking puddle jumping "issues") but range and value as a day-long workhorse would expand exponentially. Unlike schemes that require you to tear a hole in the fabric of space/time, this one seems to taste real.

The cost per mile for the HT running on methane derivatives (LP gas, butane, etc.) is very low and the charge density of electron rich gasses like this is very high to say the least. There are even ways of making complex hydrocarbons for fuel cells that start with solar power, meaning no foreign oil required. I don't know if a 1500 watt version will fit where the batteries do, but it shows a cool path and has good potential.

How about a hybrid? When you stop, it just keeps on charging?

-iNova

http://www.glidewalk.com

[citivolus]

quote:Originally posted by Peter iNova

The cost per mile for the HT running on methane derivatives (LP gas, butane, etc.) is very low and the charge density of electron rich gasses like this is very high to say the least.


The problem with using a gas is while its energy density is high, the mass density is low. Given LPG has an energy density near 50 MJ/kg and alcohols like methanol are about half that, it appears that LPG is a better choice. When we consider mass densities and the associated vessels into the mix it becomes a more interesting problem. Consider straight hydrogen at 140 MJ/kg, it sounds great until you consider that the equivalent of 1 gallon of methanol would be at 43,000 psi to have a comparable volume, that's a serious gas tank and transfer equipment. That said hybrids are always fun and you could distill your own alcohol fuels fairly easily, with the right permits, of course.

--
swiftly flying

[clm]

I'll "me too" this sentiment. I think fuel cells will get there for the 1HP (1000 watt) gadget category using liquid fuels, probably ethenol in another ten years or so.

PT, I just hauled a dead lead acid battery to the auto shop for recycling. We like to say a charge is 10 cents, but it is really more like a dollar a charge if you figure in battery recycling and replacement. This is the bane of electric, the batteries are expensive, don't last, low energy density, and pollute. A reliable fuel cell will address these problems.

I think of fuel cells a first cousins to batteries. They are essentially batteries with a changeable electrolyte, a much better idea than batteries once the engineers get the right recipe for the proton exchange membranes figured out.

As an aside, I am afraid that Kamen's Stirling engine won't make the grade. To me it seems it will be out classed by these emerging small fuel cells in the small engine market. My Segway 10 years from now will have a one liter fuel tank, a fuel cell, and a hacker crack that lets it go 20 mph! :)

Chris

[opti6600]

I remember in my interview with Mr. Kamen that we touched on the topic of fuel cells both in the iBOT and Segway devices. He said that the sheer cost and size of fuel cells was prohibitive, and therefore the Stirling Engine was evaluated for use in the iBOT. The iBOT though was found not to be a feasible platform for the Stirling considering that most users wouldn't try to do a marathon. The Segway wasn't large enough to host a Stirling, so they just opted for the most advanced batteries they could scrounge up.

Fuel cells are great though, we play around with them in Solar I/II all the time. I'll tell you one caveat with using anything other than distilled water in your fuel cell though. The reformers aren't perfect, and so you get a hit of hydrogen, oxygen, and some impurities hitting your PEM membrane. Now when that happens, your efficiency level takes a kick in the proverbial, well, let's just say it's no good. That keeps happening, and you don't notice it until a year or so goes by (assuming they can get their chemistry act together) and your PEM cell is useless. That's the issue they're currently fighting. The next big hurdle will be the durability of the cells. People can't fling em against a wall, or even use them in a car without efficiency taking a big hit. Current cells are manufactured using platinum, which is as we all know, expensive as heck. There is hope though! Chemists and engineers are working on newer cell technologies using things like plastics and aluminum.

Best regards,
Jordan

[axiotek]

"Fuel cells produce electricity without generating pollutants, through an electrochemical reaction that uses oxygen and hydrogen. "

Is this true if the fuel is methanol/ethanol, something other than hydrogen?

www.segwayboston.org

[clm]

Not exactly, axiotek; hydrocarbons must be run through a "reformer" to release hydrogen for the fuel cell. This produces CO2. Not too bad. You can use it indoors.

Jordan, thanks for your post - great info. Yes it's all about controlling the contaminants, so easy to "poison" the cells. Do you think they will eliminate platinum or in stead just figure out how to use tiny amounts of the precious metal?

Another gotcha is the temperature range. Fuel cells do not like it too hot or too cold. Somebody needs to invent a cell that works ok at or above 200 degrees F to be really robust in our world.

Chris

P.S. Moderators - when you going to kick this thread over to the technology category, heh, heh? Your driving me crazy - it's like waiting for the other shoe to drop :-)

[Sunday]

Yeah! My old post about Power Zinc fuel cells got bumped plenty quick:)


Sunday

[pam]

I'm guessing you all got a bye because the thread title is "Could it be used with HT's" and the topic title is "technology not directly related to HT's". If you want me to move it, I will.
Pam

[god1138]

Move it if you must... but as a frequent contributor to this site, I know I usually only poke around in the tech forum every once in a while, while the general discussion forum is my mainstay.

-Robert
"BORN TO GLIDE"