Pasadena EPAMD regulation. (6/30)

[toybuilder]

The proposed Pasadena EPAMD regulation is now up on the city web site.
http://www.ci.pasadena.ca.us/councilagendas/2003%20agendas/Jun_30_03/10A4.pdf

They are going to discuss and possibly approved it at today's city council meeting.

The good news is that it generally allows EPAMD's except where the police may designated restrictions (presumably in high traffic locations).

http://www.pasadenasegway.org/
A bicycle in 1897 cost $25 ($2,200 today adjusted for inflation).
A Ford Model-T cost $850 in 1908 ($75,000 today adjusted for inflation).
(Can anyone point me to historical prices of horses?)

[Peter iNova]

The bad news is that even if you can use your EPAMD in your own business building, you can't use the "wheelchair ramp" to get it INTO the building. (Section 6)

The bad news is that the police chief alone has the power to post one sign stating EPAMDs cannot be used ANYWHERE in Pasadena if he so chooses. (Section 5)

You cannot use an EPAMD on ANY PUBLIC LAND LEADING TO A PUBLIC BUILDING AT ALL! Say goodbye to City Hall, folks, they don't want them on their property. (Section 7)

They won't allow any other use for those access ramps other than BY handicapped folk. I wonder what the delivery cart people will do? Of course, they're not prohibited. This means that ALL buildings, even ones will access ramps, must be accessed by the stairs alone.

They've done an end-run around the spirit of legislation that was presented here. They've expanded the idea to make a blanket ban a whim of whatever action they wish to take without further approval, public hearings or consideration. They haven't specified the Colorado pedestrian-thick area at all which is what they discussed and apparently agreed to initially.

It's government setting itself up to ban EPAMDs without an engineering study or any further statistical input whatsoever, and it doesn't seem to be in the public interest at all. They wouldn't install one stoplight without statistical proof and engineering proof that it was necessary, but they WILL set this sort of law in motion that depends on much of its implementation by the Police Chief's mood that day. Grr.

What's irritating about the wording here is that it doesn't say things like, "you can't use the handicapped ramp unless it is free of handicapped traffic." Nope. You simply can't use it AT ALL. (except to deliver things, which ties up the ramp longer, by the way) The ramp will spend 99.999% of its life without being used by anyone for any purpose, but you can't roll up on it.

City Auditorium: no access at all.

City Hall: no access at all. Not on weekends, not ever!

City Parks: only if the Police Chief deigns to allow you.

These folks don't know the Segway HT from the inside out. Not one of the people potentially voting for this language has spent two hours on one (probably not five minutes) and they don't have an intuitive model in their heads as to what the HT experience is. At minimum they owe their constiuents the ability to say, "I've tried it and understand what I voted on."

I've glided all over Pasadena and never had an incident approaching a problem. Statistically my success in gliding Pasadena is "infinity to zero". They're restricting something without research, getting to know it personally or any authentic reason.

-iNova

http://www.glidewalk.com

[dave]

Is a first reading the actual adoption of the ordinance or just an anouncement for public comment? This ordinance is nothing like what was discussed at the preceding council meeting.

[toybuilder]

Well, it reflects the council comments and directions to the city attorney that there would be more flexibility to deal with special events (Rose Parade, Rose Bowl, etc.) and changing circumstances; and to allow for disabled access. I am not sure if it'll get accepted as-is or will be sent back for more work. I plan to be there tonight to see where it goes and add my comments.

http://www.pasadenasegway.org/
A bicycle in 1897 cost $25 ($2,200 today adjusted for inflation).
A Ford Model-T cost $850 in 1908 ($75,000 today adjusted for inflation).
(Can anyone point me to historical prices of horses?)

[clm]

Who wrote the proposed ordinance?

Is anyone talking to that person?

Chris

[toybuilder]

The city attorney and the city manager's office worked on the ordinance. At the first reading tonight, there were additional amendments to the proposed ordinance change. In particular, they added an extra "whereas" stating that the city intends to promote alternative forms of transportation, modified the police chief's discretion to regulate device by adding that the regulation be done in response to demonstrated pedestrian traffic safety needs, allows for distinctions between the various modes (i.e. de-bundle the group so it's skateboards, scooters, rollerblades and/or EPAMD's -- for example, disallow skateboards but allow EPAMD's). This goes back for additional re-drafting.

The "ramp limit" is in place, as is the "no public buildings" clause.

I know that the Segway's governmental affairs team assigned to Pasadena will follow up with the city to see where things are headed.

I went today and generally supported this "compromise" position, as I think that the continued tone from the city leaders and the police chief is that they want to generally encourage the use of the Segways.

There were three councilmen who initially leaned against the amendment tonight, looking for stronger regulation. With a little bit of adjustment, the council passed it 5-1.



http://www.pasadenasegway.org/
A bicycle in 1897 cost $25 ($2,200 today adjusted for inflation).
A Ford Model-T cost $850 in 1908 ($75,000 today adjusted for inflation).
(Can anyone point me to historical prices of horses?)

[dave]

Since all of the Gold Line Stations are Public buildings, and all of them are not at street level, it is impossible to get on and off the Gold Line now within Pasadena with a Segway. MTA says you are allowed to have a Segway on the Gold Line, you just can't get on or off at the station. Since the law ways ride or propel a Segway, you can't even power-assist it up or down a ramp, nor push it up or down with the power off.

So does this also mean a Segway approaching a curb while crossing a street has to NOT use the ramp and go up and down the curb?

[Linc2000]

Does not sound promising. The City Council passes the buck to the police chief whom I presume they appoint. The police chief takes the heat and the council looks cool. That's politics. Is there more to say? (What does this mean? If you are the more vocal minority you can win and the politicians can get a pass.) Lincoln [8D] P.S. I hate it when I answer my own question. There I go again commenting on my own comments.

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[madison]

Hi all --

Just want to assure all of you that Segway's regulatory team (of which I'm a part!) has been working VERY closely with the City Council and Police department on this issue.

We were pleased to have the input from Segway owners Joseph and Richard on this one, and we supported the amended ordinance, which gives the police chief the ability to regulate/restrict Segway use based on demonstrated pedestrian traffic need. This means both location and time, so some streets that are crowded at certain times and not others will be regulated as traffic needs demand.

We share your concern about the discretion issue, and recognize that there will be judgement calls made. That's why we have demonstrated Segway to the Police chief and traffic supervisor so they understand what Segway is capable of doing.

The final vote was 6-1, and the Mayor was absent from the meeting. This was the first reading/passage of the ordinance and it will come back for second reading/final passage in 2 weeks.

Here's the article in the Pasadena Star-News about the ordinance; we think it's a great article, especially note the last sentence. We actually think the ordinance as passed on Monday is much less restrictive than the original proposal, which restricted specific streets/areas at all times. What we got is much more flexibility for Segway owners to use them.

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/Stories/0,1413,206~22097~1488986,00.html

Thanks again, all, for staying informed!

Evelyn Jerome

[vpv]

"We should state up front that this technology, until it is proven to be safe, should not be allowed in those areas, plain and simple,' Gordo said."-Pasadena Star News.

I was wondering if Segway LLC has gotten the service of any company (ie, Insurance Institute of Highway Safety, etc) that will independently test the safety of Segways on sidewalks.. I think this is the only reason why councilman Gordon voted against the ordinance and it's the same issue on most bans.

[Peter iNova]

Guilty until proven innocent!

-iNova

http://www.glidewalk.com

[BruceWright]

What I'd like to know is, do they ban you from streets also?

This is a concern for me. Assume you are on an outing and a police officer decides that an area isn't allowed for Segways. How do you get home?

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[toybuilder]

You'd have to push your HT until you reach an unrestricted area. Probably two blocks or so in any direction at most (based on the areas they want to control today). Of course, I'm hoping that officers will generally look the other way as long as I'm being overtly safe.

http://www.pasadenasegway.org/
A bicycle in 1897 cost $25 ($2,200 today adjusted for inflation).
A Ford Model-T cost $850 in 1908 ($75,000 today adjusted for inflation).
(Can anyone point me to historical prices of horses?)