How gliding indoors hurts our cause.

[BruceWright]

The cause is acceptance and access to all destinations. I've said before that pushing our presence, and trying to achieve access to indoor public and private spaces can make us enemies.

Here's a story that illustrates that point. A law-firm sought permission and apparently got it, to ride a Segway in a Courthouse. Then that permission was rescinded, not because of any mishap, just because of the fear.

This caused BAD PRESS about Segways being dangerous. It also creates the impression that a Segway rider is too lazy to walk INSIDE A BUILDING.

What was a good, positive story about Segways being used to increase efficiency, now is a story about dangerous Segways being used in public buildings. Yes, the Sherrif is a boob, talking about how elevators would crash from the weight. What an idiot.

But there you have it, a negative story in the Cincinati post about the danger of Segways, where none would be before. Just because an able-bodied person decided to glide in a building. It's not about safety, it's about image.



BANNED
Sheriff boots Segway from the Courthouse
http://www.cincypost.com/2003/06/28/seg062803.html



It's not about safety. Segways are safe.

It's about IMAGE. An able-bodied Segger indoors is the postcard for Lazyness. That is the image in the mind of everyone watching.


I'll repeat my mantra:


When we glide outdoors, we're replacing a car. We are making the world a better place.

When we glide indoors, we're replacing a walk. We are being lazy, self-centered, and show-offy.

Tread Lightly.



-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[Stan671]

Very good, Bruce. I agree 100%.

Stan Dobrowski

[dexter]

Very disturbing.

quote:Her firm bought it for their employees who have to travel four blocks from their office on Fifth Street to the courthouse on Main Street to file legal documents. Now, Isphording is back to hoofing it to the Courthouse.
So, because they're not allowed to ride it in the courthouse, they've decided not to use it for travelling between locations, outdoors? (i.e., for the purpose that they originally purchased them!)

quote:"They even admitted in (The Post) article that on certain turns it could turn over," Barnett said.
And what turns would those be... Stop doing those "pancake turns" on your Segway!

quote:The Segway, retailing for $5,000, uses gyroscopes to turn in a perfect pirouette, without disturbing anyone or anything even immediately next to it.
Oh, so THAT'S what all those gyroscopes are for! I don't think I've heard a worse "one line" description of a Segway. Why not define a Segway as a device with two wheels and a power-assist mode to help you drag it up stairways. That pretty much sums up what a Segway is just as well.

quote:...without disturbing anyone or anything even immediately next to it.
Doesn't disturb anyone or anything even immediately next to it, EXCEPT for when it causes them to plummet to their death on an elevator.

I guess the author thought he was making the piece "balanced" by making it contradictory.

Sounds like a "feud" on both sides of this story, with neither side being resonable nor looking at "the bigger picture".

>>It's not about safety. Segways are safe. It's about IMAGE.

That should be our mantra.


Dave C.
me: www.idexter.com
work: www.idealjacobs.com
play: www.nyline.org

[Jeff Allen]

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright
It's not about safety, it's about image.

I've got no problem gliding indoors if I have permission from the property owner. Focusing on "image" is a waste of time. If the Segway can be operated safely indoors then it should be allowed indoors. The highest appeals should always be made to logic and reason. If people aren't accustomed to weighing benefits that way anymore it's only because someone misinformed them that "image" is more important. What use is an "ambassador" or "advocate" who puts his own agenda second to everybody else's?

Onward!
Jeff Allen

[BruceWright]

And the benefit to everyone else in the building by gliding indoors weighed against its use is zero.

So it is logical not to allow it.

The fact that the Segway can be operated safely indoors in that courthouse has not been proven, at least not to the powers that operate the courthouse and the people whose safety is their responsibility.



-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[Sid Viscous]

The main reason to ride indoors is so you don't have to drag the segway around.

If they offer a safe place to store it and hopefully charge it then that would be the best bet.

[BruceWright]

That's exactly what I would have asked for, as a compromise.

It's what I do at work. We have an agreement, I don't ride it indoors, and they let me bring it inside, park it at my desk and charge it for free. Works out to my satisfaction!

I didn't have to push it, argue that it was safe to ride indoors, or prove it to anyone. I didn't have to justify myself. I just asked for the ability to safely park and charge it, and that's what I got, which is very reasonable. I am allowed to ride it on work property, just not in the building.

I didn't have to argue that the gatekeepers who run the building weren't using logic or reason, or didn't have the ability to weigh costs and benefits. They obviously would have seen ZERO benefit for them, and a non-zero potential cost if there were an injury. Weighing those, I would have made the same logical conclusion.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[segwayowner]

i agree. but for people like DK, it takes him so long to walk from one side of his house to another, he NEEDS a segway.

DES: Segway owner

[pam]

Indoors, IMHO, depends on the property owner, or manager. I have permission to use mine indoors at the college where I work, and will continue to ride it from the door of the building to my office, where it remains parked and plugged in until I leave. Do I think that people think I'm lazy to ride it to my office? Nope. And no one has even intimated it.

We all have differing opinions on many things, this will probably be just one more. I do not use my Segway inside stores, restaurants, banks, or things of that nature - unless I can't secure it outside, and then I might hand push it inside the front door and ask to leave it where it can be seen.

I fully intend to use mine in Chicago in the hotel and conference center. Sensibly and reasonably.I don't anticipate I will ride it into the coffee shop for breakfast or into the gift shop. Riding it is the easiest way to get it from one place where I need it to another. I personally don't think a "blanket" "ride it everywhere" or "ride it nowhere" fits here, and it needs to be determined on a case by case basis. And I think that people who preceive us as lazy are going to do it whether we're riding on a sidewalk or a lobby. And some of those people who perceive us as lazy (their prejudice) will have access to the press and will, unfortunately, write about it, because for the media, it's so much more newsworthy if you can diss something than if you write positively about it. Positive is boring. (At least, that's what seems to be happening to me, I could be wrong.)

Pam

[SegwayBill]

Bruce
I agree, indoors there are marble and waxed floors that are like ice and those dreaded doorways that have gotten me on more then one occasion. After Segways become more excepted by the public, gliders with documented disabilties and proper training could start to address public access issuses. Maybe we could come up with some type of identification that would be displayed on the machine.

Bill

[Sid Viscous]

Marble and waxed floors aren't much of a problem. Just as they aren't with rubber soled shoes.

Interesting point which doesn't really factor into this argument.

Segway has long had this problem. In stores and such it's less of a big deal. But picture an orientation that is being held at a hotel, where the rooms are a goodly distance from the area training is being done. At these orientations every Segway trainer had 3 machines in thier rooms, besides boxes of t-shirts and other stuff. Can you see spending an hour and a half dragging these through the hotels to the orientation area every morning.

Personally I could never see dragging a perfectly functioning Segway around.

I've also had a lot of good luck in this area. Mainly by being considerate, not asking (but stepping off the minute someone says something) and giving a lot of demos.

[QuadSquad]

Obviously, I use mine everywhere. I can honestly tell you that I have been nowhere where I felt it was inappropriate to use an HT. I know that because I have affixed a large handicap symbol on the front of my bag using Velcro (I am able to remove it if someone who is not disabled rides the HT) that this would probably prevent anyone from questioning its use by myself. At this moment I'm on the beach in Sarasota Florida, I rode it through the terminal in St. Louis to the front door of the airplane, it was waiting for me at the end of the jetway when I stepped off the plane in Tampa, I have ridden it into the finest restaurants where they have simply removed chairs to allow me a place to park it. The only questions have been about how it's improved my life, who can use it, how does it work, how much does it cost, and how can they get one. It appears that Segway LLC is beginning to open up a little more aggressive marketing program for their HT's i.e., the new group in Houston and the rental program partners that are being solicited. With that in mind this relatively small group of passionate owners and enthusiasts who frequent this site may find themselves swept along in a river of public opinion that will be formed by those owners and operators of HT's who come after us. Clearly a renter's stake in the future of an HT is not the same as for those of us who have made a decision to make the HT a part of our lives. So with that in mind I'm wondering that for those of you in this group who make a conscious decision not to use your HT inside because of some fear of what others might be secretly thinking of you, that you may in some way to be doing a disservice to all of us in the end. I think that we all know that the HT when operated by a responsible user is safe practically anywhere (remember Bruce, I said practically anywhere) and that by making the decision not to use it inside you may be somehow sending an unconscious message that they are not safe for the inside or at the very least not appropriate for use inside. Believe me, the message sent by the initial user group will have some weight on how they are regulated, or not regulated in the future. Obviously, some people's initial reaction may be negative, but if they become accustomed to seeing them operated safely in an indoor environment in the future they will perceive them as safe. And then when a knucklehead renter comes barreling through recklessly they will attribute it to the operator and not the machine.

[Peter iNova]

quote:I'll repeat my mantra:


When we glide outdoors, we're replacing a car. We are making the world a better place.

When we glide indoors, we're replacing a walk. We are being lazy, self-centered, and show-offy.

Tread Lightly.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream


...or we are going from the front door to our office. Sure, gliding inside a department store is lazy, but not all indoor situations fit that bill.

-iNova

http://www.glidewalk.com

[nocanfly]

The segway is essentially defined by the way you use it. If you use it on the sidewalk then you are a powered pedestrian but if you use it indoors and you are perfectly able-bodied, then you are using a stand-up wheelchair. Bruce is correct, you are going to make yourselves appear lazy and worse - elitist. These bannings could end up being the norm if the segway isn't being used as it was intended to be operated. Perhaps Dean Kamen could set a better example by not using it indoors.

[QuadSquad]

quote:Originally posted by nocanfly

The segway is essentially defined by the way you use it. If you use it on the sidewalk then you are a powered pedestrian but if you use it indoors and you are perfectly able-bodied, then you are using a stand-up wheelchair. Bruce is correct, you are going to make yourselves appear lazy and worse - elitist. These bannings could end up being the norm if the segway isn't being used as it was intended to be operated. Perhaps Dean Kamen could set a better example by not using it indoors.


Well, I don't think I could disagree any stronger! Those who think of you as elitist will do so because you bought one not where you use it!

[Peter iNova]

I think that what Dean is showing is that it IS APPROPRIATE for indoor use.

-iNova

http://www.glidewalk.com

[vpv]

I took mine inside a HomeDepot store.. I had a "Bush" incident when I tried to mount it and everyone inside the isle saw it.. but it was no big deal, they understood once explained to them.
I got what I needed from the store (supplies for the car ramp), lined up in the cashier while on it (it was a long line) and people behind me are just curious and amazed. Then off I go back to my house (2 miles away).
There were no lazy comment during this experience. Most of the lazy comments I got was while outdoors.

The Segway is perfect anywhere you can walk, indoors or outdoors.

Again as I said before.. people who ban the use of this are misinformed and are for the most part fearmongers.



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-Segway

[BruceWright]

Reading back folks comments.

Still looking for the good reason why able-bodied people SHOULD glide indoors. Why? To prove that it's safe so that others can glide indoors? What USE does that serve if EVERYONE always gets to glide indoors?

Let's say that everyone always gets to glide indoors and out, everywhere. Dean's "vision" of replacing feet or whatever, happens.

What does that accomplish?

In my mind, it makes us the human blobs that the naysayers predict.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[pt]

if you're able-bodied and you're gliding inside you can expect to be banned. it's simply a matter of time, private property owners can't and won't allow the ht inside, they have no reason to (even i wouldn't). all the facts show that bans will happen again and again along with press about it when you insider gliding folks choose to be selfish and pushy, you can call it whatever you want...but that's what it is.

so...for you able-bodied folks gliding inside, enjoy gliding around the mall, home depot and falling off your hts, standing in line- it'll soon be over, memos and signs will be posted, press releases and the damage you've done will screw it up for all of us who simply want to get to our destinations.

cheers,
pt

[vpv]

i 100% disagree, pt..
we're not pushy as you've incorrectly assumed.
we're not selfish as you've incorrecly assumed again. You don't even know me! for crying out loud..

All we're saying here is bans are not caused by users..... it's caused by misinformed, fearmongers individuals whom you seem to like to associate and agree with.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-Segway

[pt]

vpv-

what misinformed, fearmongers individuals are you saying i like to associate and agree with?

cheers,
pt

[mrleisure]

Boy, call me a contrarian but I respectfully and strongly disagree with the idea that riding inside is a problem. I've just had soooo many wonderful experiences when I take the machine into unexpected places that I'm beginning to wonder if I'm doing something much different than the naysayers here.

Example: On Saturday night I rode into a nice wine bar, the place exploded with enthusiasm. The bartender came over and told me everything was cool by him, as long as he wasn't breaking any laws by letting inside. (get it? he liked me being in there) A few minutes later the shop-owner next door gave me free lemonade just for being near his take-out window. And then a cute girl gave me her phone number and made me promise to call her.

I was in a different town yesterday and rode into a big restaurant, but the menu wasn't for me. As I rode back out people called after me "don't leave, come back, come back".

I just don't understand where the negativity is coming from here, am I really in the minority by riding where I please and having no problems? I'm having a blast with my machine, I see absolutely no need for self-inflicted rules given my experiences.

[ChinaMan]

Watch what you say vpv, they don't like you disagree.

ChinaMan

[pam]

Mr. Leisure, it's entirely possible that your experience in the "Live free or die" State will be different than others who live in areas where there are still ongoing questions re: potential municiple bans.

Also, we're still getting a bit of a free ride on the "newness factor." I think it takes just being sensitive to your surroundings (and if someone asked you to not ride on their private property, that their wish would be respected). Nothing you've said indicates to me that you wouldn't do that.
Pam

[pt]

again, private property-- no matter what, you can and will be banned. good luck trying to glide around the mall and home depot if you're able-bodied, it's not going last too much longer.

i think the tensions run a little high in these discussions so here are some thoughts about that:

-this is a great topic, we all need to talk about this.
-there are pretty strong points of view, let's keep talking.
-we all want to use our ht in the most places possible, i think we all agree sidewalks and streets are the most important -first- right?

cheers,
pt

[vpv]

Click on Search and type PT.. there seem to be a number of posts that seem to fit that statement.

Look.. The original post here indicated that the segway user had asked permission and have gotten one but was reversed by the Sheriff. Not because of the user's fault but because of misinformation and fear.. "What happens if it gets in an elevator and the elevator overloads and crashes?"!! CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF FEAR. It could also overload with just people inside it... If it were a liability issue.. they need to sue the elevator co who maintains it)..

"private property owners can't and won't allow the ht inside" a blanket statement like this is irresponsible. I worked for a national real estate company that owns and manages regional malls. They've allowed it. They even want a Segway store inside their malls!




http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-Segway

[pt]

quote:Originally posted by vpv Click on Search and type PT.. there seem to be a number of posts that seem to fit that statement.

i'm not sure what you mean can you be more specific?

quote:Originally posted by vpv Look.. The original post here indicated that the segway user had asked permission and have gotten one but was reversed by the Sheriff. Not because of the user's fault but because of misinformation and fear.. "What happens if it gets in an elevator and the elevator overloads and crashes?"!! CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF FEAR. It could also overload with just people inside it... If it were a liability issue.. they need to sue the elevator co who maintains it)..

yep-we'll see this happen a lot, someone will get some type of permission and then they'll be banned from gliding inside from someome else. it doesn't make it right or wrong, but it's important to know that is what is happening.

we're all smart, knowing this should shape how we use our hts. for example, parking it and walking in gets us to and from our destinations without the problems and bad press, right?

quote:Originally posted by vpv "private property owners can't and won't allow the ht inside" a blanket statement like this is irresponsible. I worked for a national real estate company that owns and manages regional malls. They've allowed it. They even want a Segway store inside their malls!

really? who can i call and speak with? there are many ht owners who also run and manage businesses here in our forum, have you read what they posted? no able-bodied ht owners allowed.

cheeers,
pt




http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-Segway
[/quote]

[ElectraGlide]

I dont usually glide indoors except for a short glide into the local drycleaners door ( about 3 ft to the counter )or to get into other buildings to dismount and park the unit inside. I may get another Segway once the "p" model is available, and that may be better suited for the indoor use.....but I would keep it to a minimum and only when I have prior permission. I dont like the "lazy" image the indoor use portrays

Steve

[mrleisure]

Pam, yes if I was on private property and asked to go away I would leave.

That being said here's another recent real world example: I'm in front of the empty stage at a big public halfshell and a guy in uniform comes over and tells me that I can't ride here. I said "OK, but so I understand, please tell me where exactly is here?"

He fumbled, and explained that they don't like skateboarders and we got into a conversation. A few minutes later he completely changed his mind and stated that I could ride wherever I wanted.

The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes people knee-jerk at the sight of a Segway. I could have just said "Sorry" and immediately left, but by electing to engage and politely press the logic of his statement I didn't need to.

[pt]

we should all elect to engage in polite conversations like mrleisure suggested. areas like a empty stage at a big public halfshell are different than inside the isles of a home depot or a mall.

cheers,
pt

[delouia]

I have walked with a cane for over 25 years.
I received my segway 3 weeks ago.

I have used it in CVS, sears, lowes,County Parks,nature trails and the college where I work.

Everyone is curious and wants to know about the ht.

I find I have been able to go and see places that I could not see before.

My area of responsability at work has trippled because I can now get where I need to be quickly and efficently.

They can take my vote before my segway.........

[BruceWright]

Welcome Delouia!

I think that access by the disabled is something we all should work towards. Good for you!

vpv and chinaman,
Let's talk about the issue at hand rather than who's on whose side here. It's a poor arguer who can't stick to the issues, and instead relies on personal statements. If there are any sides here, it's because you see them. Pt and I have disagreed before, and will disagree again.

But back to actually discussing the issue.
I'm still waiting for the ONE GOOD REASON why a hypothetical shop-owner should let any able-bodied person who happens to have a Segway to let them ride inside.

What's the one good reason they should let you? Don't give me a reason why they shouldn't ban it (like saying "because they're safe"). Give me a reason why they SHOULD allow it.

I can give you 10 good reasons they should be allowed on the sidewalk. Give me ONE positive reason why able-bodied seggers should be allowed in a store.

Give me one, and I'll shut up and say that inside gliding should be our common goal.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[vpv]

I think I've stated the issue here (see previous posts). The issue here is should Segways be allowed inside buildings. The answers is a resounding YES! If you can take your Segway inside your bathroom, you can surely take it at any indoor location!!

Bruce, I read the cincinatti article prior to your posting this topic. That article is similar to the issue of park bans. Some people think that if you take it inside, it will cause bans... when the opposite is true..

As you can see from the recent LA Segway User Group gathering in Griffith Park. No bans was caused by 14 segways in the park! If we showed up and was banned later, it was not because of our own actions. It is due to misinformed park rangers just as in the case in WA.
Just like Mrleisure said, "electing to engage and politely press the logic of his statement" is the way to go. There are many good reasons and what is one good reason to you maybe another bad reason to other. When we take our Segways and someone stops us to ask us that we couldnt ride it inside, we should politely reason out our view.
Another example, I took my Segway to Union Station, I was informed by two guards that I cannot ride it inside the Station.. I reasoned with them and asked them if they've rode this before, they said no and I proceeded to tell them what it is, etc. After a short conversation, they allowed me to push it through the station. There were compromises.. but there was no ban!

btw.. chinaman.. it's ok to disagree.. I don't mind if someone disagrees.. This is the USA not China..:) (I'm assumming that this is your background, otherwise correct me)

[pt]

vpv-

i think the question is:

why should private property owners allow able-bodied people to glide around their property? what is the reason?

here are more questions.

-why do owners here in this forum who own and manage stores also say "no hts for able-bodied people -inside- ".
-you said you "worked for a national real estate company that owns and manages regional malls. They've allowed it. They even want a Segway store inside their malls!" again, are you saying they will allow hts to be used by able-bodied people inside the malls and stores? each store?

you also mentioned "If you can take your Segway inside your bathroom, you can surely take it at any indoor location". i actually can't take my ht to the bathroom, so what does that mean? i can however use my rollerblades to get around my house, but can't use them inside the mall or most indoor locations. i can take a variety of other modes of tranport to my bathroom as well as other things that clearly have no reason to be used in bathroom.

sidewalks, public streets that's where we need access, not inside a home depot if we can walk sorry.

inside a train station, i too think pushing the ht is a fair compromise (we agree on that).

parks, well- i personally don't think hts belong in parks. i'll take my ht -to- a park and -lock- it up, but i won't glide around in a park. i did once, with permission to film during "off season" and hours.

cheers,
pt

[Jeff Allen]

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright

Welcome Delouia!

I think that access by the disabled is something we all should work towards. Good for you!

Maybe you would consider dropping Kinky a line to inform her of what "we all should be working towards".

Onward!
Jeff Allen

[citivolus]

quote:I'm still waiting for the ONE GOOD REASON why a hypothetical shop-owner should let any able-bodied person who happens to have a Segway to let them ride inside.


Should? I can't do it, it may be an impossible task. The way I see it, it's private property and if they want every able-bodied person to hop around like a bunny while there then that's ok and anyone who doesn't want to hop can leave. It's not an infringement on anyone's rights, it's not discrimination, it's a choice. If the property owner wants Seg's inside, fine, if not, that's ok too.

It's about liability insurance and the owner will need to check with a lawyer prior to making any decision. The final decision will be made then and only then and fear will be a big part because that will play well to any potential jury. I can hear the plaintiff's lawyer now, "and tell me, were you terrified when (OBJEC!) I'll rephrase your honor, how did you feel when you saw this big and heavy machine come spinning quickly around the corner?" I'm going to be ill, it's sad to think that we have become such a litigious society where the only good choices are the ones with minimal risk.

--
swiftly flying

[vpv]

-you said you "worked for a national real estate company that owns and manages regional malls. They've allowed it. They even want a Segway store inside their malls!" again, are you saying they will allow hts to be used by able-bodied people inside the malls and stores? each store? YES, YES, AND YES..
The only objection to to the Segway's use inside the Mall or store is the ability to carry items that have been purchased by shoppers. To those who are not familiar with the retail real estate industry (which I worked with for more than 10 yrs), Mall owners not only collect base rent but also a % of sales revenue generated by store sales. If Segway use is only to ride around the malls then this will not be an incentive for mall owners, rather they want Segways users to buy from their mall and be able to carry home what they bought. In my opinion this is not a problem, coz there are several ways to shipped purchased items to your home.

When I refer to the takin your Segway to the bathroom, I meant the ability of the Segway to be navigated in tight spots, in enclosed areas. No, I don't think you should use the Segway in the bathroom to do your private endeavors, unless someone has already done it.:)


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-Segway

[pt]

vpv-

okay, which national real estate company that owns and manages regional malls wants hts to be used by able-bodied people inside the mall and each store? who can we talk to?

people here who owns a segway and manages a store / large properties have said they wouldn't allow able bodied people to use the ht inside their stores, so let us know what company and contact info so we can all find out the reason they're doing this and where.

cheers,
pt

[BruceWright]

Jeff, maybe we all should work toward not bringing up old arguments in new posts.

It's considered bad form on the internet, as it causes all new discussions to devolve into old arguments.



-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[BruceWright]

vpv, is your answer to why a Store owner should let me Segway inside is that because it will attract that untapped market of Segway owners to shop there?

I think you'll have to do better than that. We're talking ONE Segway owner in my neighborhood, and I pretty much have to shop there anyway.

So the shop owner weighs the ONE paying customer on the Segway, versus the other hundred paying customers in the store, any of whom might sue if they get so much as brushed by me.

And on the other side, NO BENEFIT.


See, the reason we get to use sidewalks, is that EVERYONE benefits from me using a Segway. Better air to breathe, less traffic, more civic involvement.

In a store or a mall, I benefit, but NOBODY else does. And they shoulder risks. Whatever the risks are, they aren't zero. Any non-zero risk must be out-weighed by benefits not to the user, but to the people bearing those risks.

If I was a disbled rider, the benefit would outweigh the risk, as we are a richer society when all our members have access to public life.

But as an able-bodied rider in a store or a mall, We are just spoiled lazy brats on our toys.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[QuadSquad]

I am actually trying to follow the logic here of those who think riding inside is a bad idea. I'm trying but I'm just not getting it. You see, PT, Bruce, you claim that everybody is better off because you can ride your HT on the sidewalk. Why is that? You can walk can't you? You can take public transportation can't you? You don't have to drive a fossil fuel burning vehicle to get to work, to shop. There's no benefit to the Walk San Francisco member for you riding your HT In many parts of the country it's just not going to replace the automobile as the favored form of transportation. Because of that, there are many that will always view the HT as a toy for the rich, for the spoiled and for even some the lazy. I'm an advocate of riding it inside, I am an advocate of riding it outside on the sidewalks and anywhere else one can walk. Personally I don't think your arguments for riding it outside on the sidewalk hold any more water than anyone's arguments for riding it inside in Home Depot. This forum is a great source for debate, but just because someone says something that doesn't make it so. PT has no more idea about what's going to get HT's banned than anyone else here does. I've seen absolutely no evidence and I read this forum several times daily, look at every possible news item that's posted here, that anyone riding one indoors has done anything to get riding HT's banned. I do guarantee one thing if we all parked them in our garage and only ride them from the garage to the mailbox each day they'll never be banned and they won't exist five years from now.

[BruceWright]

Quad squad,

What is your good idea as to what benefit to store owners exists to let us ride inside?

So far, I have seen none.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[QuadSquad]

Well I'm glad you asked,

First of all as you know I think the HT may be the greatest invention that there is from a mobility standpoint. But you have to ask yourself who does it really benefit or can it benefit the most. From my perspective it will benefit those with mobility issues to such a degree it will be tremendously successful. And I'm not talking about only the disabled, I'm talking about the senior citizen market of our country. It's the 60-year-olds, the 70-year-olds, the 80-year-olds and above who happen to have an extra 5 Grand laying around that they can use to improve their lives. No longer will they have to look at the back end of somebody's posterior because they can no longer walk well. The more the elderly see HT's being operated in every different environment the more comfortable they will become with them. And the more comfortable they will become with the notion of purchasing one. People with mobility problems tend to shop less, get out of their home less often and these are people with real disposable income to spend. Would it benefit a store owner, I certainly think it would anything that can get people in the store more often would be a benefit. People need to feel comfortable riding the HT and the more commonplace they become the less conspicuous they will feel. I kind of feel like it is your obligation to kind of pave the way for them, you know so your granddad will feel comfortable riding his into the local mall to buy you a Christmas present!

[pt]

quadsquad-

are you saying getting people 60 - 80 years old to the mall so they can glide around is more important than reducing car trips and cars?

cheers,
pt

[vpv]

Bruce:
"But as an able-bodied rider in a store or a mall, We are just spoiled lazy brats on our toys." --If you think that that's what you are when you ride inside a mall/store then that's what you are.

On the contrary I don't think that way.. sorry we have different opinions. I don't consider myself lazy.. and I don't give a sheet if someone else considers me lazy.

I'm fulfiling Dean's vision of "bridging the last mile". That's the whole cause of the Segway. That's the real cause of why we use the Segway indoors. We're not here to gain acceptance by everyone. Different people/owners will weight the risks/benefits of the use of Segway. But the fact still remains, it will be used in a way appropriate to each individual, whether indoors or outdoors.

[QuadSquad]

No, that's not what I'm saying, what I am saying is that I personally believe if the HT is going to be as successful as I hope that it will be it has to have a real application in today's society. I'm not talking about fantasies I'm talking about the real world. Unfortunately they're just not going to sell enough of them for people to use to commute to and from work. And they're not going to sell enough of them for people to get together every weekend and glide around. But what I do believe is that they will sell enough of them for them to stay in business and continue to produce them if the people that can really use them in an everyday application become comfortable with them and began to see how they can improve their lives. Overtime perhaps the infrastructure in the US will be developed so we can all use them for many different applications but that won't happen if we arbitrarily begin to limit the things that they could be used for.

[JohnHHarrington]

I think it's important to post here that LLC expects their use inside. I remember vividly the segment on the video/website of the user gliding into a room where two people are meeting, delivering a report, and gliding out.

I feel it is not for me to make the case regarding indoor gliding. I feel that folks who use the HT and are disabled will make the case for their own benefit, and able-bodied people will benefit. I know that if I approach a building lobby and are told to dismount/leave it outside, and I do, that lobby rent-a-cop will be empowered to tell the next person, who may well be disabled, that they can't come in, and that's going to be a bad scene.

I have glided indoors on occasion. Malls in the middle of the day when they're almost empty, Home Depot, etc. On the rare occasion that I am approached, I indicate to the manager, that while I am happy to step off, that they're going to have a significant ADA issue if they preclude a disabled person, as the HT is to be treated as a pedestrian, according to local ordinance.

Interestingly enough, I was recently in Manchester, sans HT, and curiously asked a mall rent-a-cop at the "Mall of New Hampshire" about their acceptance at the mall. He quickly said no, they were not allowed. I suggested that if a disabled person came in, they'd have a problem, and his response was that they provide wheelchairs, and that the mall patron would have to switch to that mode of transportation. Answer in hand, I walked away, but I am quite curious if it's legal to force a disabled person to switch modes of transportation like that.

Usually, my rule of thumb is that if I'm going inside a shop on a city street, I leave it outside, or in a mall, where I have one or two places to go, again, outside. But if I have a fair amount of ground to cover indoors, or I am going to see someone I know and want/plan to give a demo, I take it with me.

Happy gliding -- John

[QuadSquad]

John,
according to the ADA compliance officer at the United States Department of Justice if you're disabled and and the HT is your mobility device you can use it anywhere you can use a wheelchair including the "Mall of New Hampshire" or for that matter even in San Francisco!

[pt]

vpv- i think we're still looking for the answers here.

why should private property owners allow able-bodied people to glide around their property? what is the reason?

here are more questions (again).

-why do owners here in this forum who own and manage stores also say "no hts for able-bodied people -inside- ".

-you said you "worked for a national real estate company that owns and manages regional malls. They've allowed it. They even want a Segway store inside their malls!" again, who? where?

-can't you rollerblade to bridge the last mile? do you skateboard or rollerblade in the mall too? those are cheaper than a segway as well.

vpv, if dean kamen asked you not to glide in home depot, the store or the mall would you still? is that what it will take? i'll get that on tape at segwayfest, who knows maybe he will say something else, but i bet he won't. hmm, care to bet? :-]

the last mile isn't gliding around a mall, it's getting around from home to stores, but not inside a store if you can walk, you might not think you're a spolied lazy brat on a toy, but it's safe to say a lot of people will. like it or not, you're on private property and in this forum and in real life we're going to hear more and more people banned when able-bodied people do selfish things and ride around in the mall like you advocating.

cheers,
pt

[mzokc]

Reasons to glide inside? 1. Excessive heat affects HT. 2. No lockup place outside. 3. Indoor storage provided (some require gliding, some pushing the HT.) 4. Store management/owner has positive attitude and currently says no to outside lockup (many employees at various businesses in OKC suggest inside storage to avoid theft.) 5. Mall sells electric scooters (last photo at: http://homepage.mac.com/mzokc/segway/PhotoAlbum79.html )

As I continue my daily use of the HT, I do glide inside if needed. At work - I do not glide inside, because it isn't needed for work activities. But I do store it inside, so it doesn't cook in the hot sun or overheat in the trunk of the car.

As good lockup places are found, and difficulty with doors is discovered, the HT is left outside whenever possible. However, the Taco Bell does not have a lockup place outside, and they love to see me glide in and park it against the wall. The Civic Center Music Hall management and I discussed and glided (yes, hall managment gliding around the inside) to test the concept. We both agreed that gliding in, dismounting at the door, and pushing it to coat storage would be best. It works great and guests are pleased. A few concert goers who ask, get their demo rides afterwards outside.

Byron's Liquor Warehouse lets me glide inside, one of the most expensive places to have an error. Why do they allow it, because I tell them I am glad to park it wherever they want, then they respond, "Ride it inside!" (They also know that I am insured.) I fill my 12.0 bag with 12+ proof or wine and they think it's cool. I am ready to cable it up around the telephone pole outside, but they say no. Whenever they want me to park it, I will.

To end on a healthy note, I glide inside the OU Center for Healthy Living and park near the entrance to workout. While there is a bike rack outside, everyone agrees it is best to lock the HT inside so staff can watch it. They have an elevator for those who need to get to physical therapy on the "workout" level. (BTW, our workout centers are empty compared with California standards! In OKC, an "All you can eat" banquet is a common exercise routine!)

Mark

PS: There is one final reason. "I bought the Segway to enjoy life." Gliding inside is great when it is right, and seems strange when it is wrong. Each person, place, city, and state get to decide. It's America - a land of freedom, liberty and law. Happy 4th of July everyone!

[pt]

mark-

everything you said sounds 100% reasonable and fueled by common sense.

keeping a segway ht inside is different than gliding around a mall, or in home depot falling off the ht in an isle-- all without permission. vpv, unless you had permission with all your indoor gliding- do you?

it's pretty obvious that mark is asking and working with each place- that, in my opinion is the proper thing to do. i think we'll see most places are fine storing the ht inside or pushing it, but not riding around.

cheers,
pt

[mzokc]

I appreciate the positive feedback, PT.

I have not brought the HT to the malls who cater to the younger set, whos 2nd to 1st floor ramps would make Segway owners drool with excitement! Those are race track malls, and not geared like Penn Square, to the older audience, many who need assistance.

Part of my indoor use is for experiment and testing. Over time, the right combination will be found. PT, you have helped me as an early owner to realize when the indoor use is a thrill rather than requirement. I enjoy the streets the most, with caution and care. The biggest pain, is finding the parking place. As kiosks appear, our joy will increase! May they always be safe locations, well managed and theft free.

Mark

[mrleisure]

Hi Bruce,

If the question "What benefit exists for me, the store owner, to let you ride inside?" was posed, my rather dumb but direct answer would be "Because I'm here spending money, but I can change that if you'd rather".

Sounds simplistic, but my experience is (in my universe anyway) that the presence of a Segway would rarely get seriously challenged anyway. Before I get lynched on this forum, let me state that I agree that it's silly and obnoxious to ride into the quickie-mart to purchase a pack of gum.

Hey JohnHarrington, strange but true- A woman I recently met works in management at the Mall of NH. We spoke about Segways in the mall. She seemed to say that the owner of the place is friends of the Segway and all for allowing them, but the lawyers have the idea on hold for now. Apparently, in the world of shopping mall management the Segway is a hot topic, but no one mall has the audacity to go first and publicly welcome the machines for fear of making a bad decision. I'm assuming they are all waiting for the next mall to go first and base their decision what happens there.

This lemming-like attitude is (in my opinion) one of the best single reasons I've heard to press the issue of riding indoors- So you can honestly tell a store owner that the other guy allows it and doesn't have a problem.

[vpv]

pt.. i think a lot of people have already posted their reasons why property owners should allow able-bodied with Segways indoors. If you're still not satisfied with mine or other people's opinion, then sorry, we can't help you find your own answer. We're not here to satisfy anyone's question to their satisfaction. We've stated our opinions which this forum is all about. Your opinion is no better than mine nor mine is no better than yours. If you think they should not be allowed inside, then don't take yours inside. Other people will. But putting a label (ie "selfish", etc) on what other people do is very irresponsible.. Sorry had to emphasis that..

I'm curious as to what Dean would say about indoor use. I bet he would say to do it "within reason." but since I don't gamble.. I wouldn't..:)

As to who I worked for. It's safe to say that the nature of my conversation with them lead me to believe that that's their position and that I tried it myself in one of their malls in Manhattan Beach. Come to California, maybe you'll experience the thrill of riding into one of these mega malls and not be intimidated as you might be in your corner of the WA. :).

[BruceWright]

Quadsquad, good answer.

Here's my take on it.

Guy sees me riding on the sidewalk, says "You're lazy."

I say, "Hey, I'm replacing a car. I just came 7 miles, do you call people in cars lazy? Thanks to me, you have cleaner air and one less car on the roads."

Guy sees me riding in a store, says "You're lazy."

"Uuuummmm... I'm paving the way for seniors.... yeah, that's it."


You say they're not going to sell enough for people to commute to and from work. I commute to and from work, all they needed to sell was ONE for that to happen.

Every Segway takes one car off the road. EVERY SINGLE ONE. So there is a 1 to 1 benefit for each Segway sold.

EXCEPT if that Segway is replacing a walking trip for someone who COULD and SHOULD be walking.

When we replace walking, we aren't doing anyone any favors.

Beware the impulse to show off by riding indoors, that's all I'm saying. Because it doesn't reflect well. I like John Harrington's approach. I like his point of view that he's demoing it, and if they don't let him, he proactively talks about the disabled, and demonstrates it in advance of that confrontation.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[pt]

vpv-

okay, you've said it all, great:
"experience the thrill of riding into one of these mega malls"

so you admit you do it for the thrill? yikes, that's messed up.

you haven't said a single reason why able-bodied riding around in a mall is good for anyone but you / other able-bodied riders, or answered any of our questions after you made some pretty bold statements. actually, now you did, the thrill?

you say there are malls that are okay with hts and you worked for them, but you won't say which ones or where, or have any contact info?

and now you say you do it for the thrill? did you tell them that? you also say you're fullfilling dean kamen's vision, but you don't have enough faith in your choice as an able-bodied person to even risk being wrong about what the goals of the technology are. trust me, it's not to glide around in malls for people who can walk and it's not for "thrills" inside mega malls either.

lastly, i visit cali all the time, if and when i segway there i'll park my ht outside or ask to secure it inside. let me know what malls you glide around, i'd rather not risk someone getting their thrills while i go shopping, thanks.

good gawd!@

you gotta be kidding right? i'm laughing as i type this, but i'm kinda worried too. do other able-bodied cali owners support what you're advocating? thrill riding in mega malls?

cheers,
pt

[vpv]

Guy sees me riding in a store, says "You're lazy."
"Uuuummmm... I'm paving the way for seniors.... yeah, that's it."

Bruce.. a more proactive response would be "Have you riden of these?" and proceed to tell them the benefits of Segway.. Don't fear if people call you "lazy" coz you know you're not..
If fear keeps people from enjoying life or riding the Segway indoors or outdoors, then something is wrong and a professional may be useful.

However, if you know that you're not what other people call you, then enjoy your segway and the thrill of it, whether indoor or outdoor.

I think I heard Dean Kamen said one time about risk taking as innnovators. Take some risk if you want to succeed.

[pt]

vpv-

so you're saying able-bodied thrill rides in mega malls (your words) is the same type of risk as spending years and millions of dollars / hours to introduce a new form of transportation? do you think you're an innovator because you ride your ht in home depot (fell off in an isle as per your post) and advocate riding around in malls? again, your words-- i'm trying to better understand where the thrill and succeess is since that seems to be what you're after.

you then go on to suggest bruce needs a "professional" because he doesn't agree with "thrill riding" in mega malls? hmm, i wonder who most people think needs professional help, the guy who glides to the mall locks up the ht, perhaps asks to store it inside....or the able-bodied dude who enjoys "thrill" rides in the mall?

maybe we can start a poll?

if the results said don't glide in mega malls for thrills, would you still do it?

cheers,
pt

[Linc2000]

Hey Bruce! I probably can't satisfy you but if I rented a store in a mall I wouldn't want mall security banning anyone who could afford $5000 plus tax and shipping for a Segway with full insurance to be kept away from my store. Hey, I'm closing in on 62 and I don't go window shopping in any malls. Too much walking. I have been kicked from a couple of malls and haven't been back with or without my Segway. I have been doing more shopping on the internet. (How do you think I got a Segway in the first place.) (Before I bought my last two new cars I spent a lot of time on the internet) These mall ban people are saving me a lot of bucks. I guess I shouldn't complain. The stuff I would buy at a mall would probably just get stuck in closet or sent to GoodWill any way. Why do you think advertising is geared toward the young? They can bounce around malls and buy stuff on whim. Young people should want Segways banned in all malls. The old people on Segways may end up bouncing around malls and spending their heirs future inheritances. Lincoln [8D]

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[Linc2000]

Hey! Gliding around on your Segway can make you giddy and vulnerable to some mall salesman who wants to sell you something you don't really need. Lincoln [8D]

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[BruceWright]

quote:Originally posted by vpv

Don't fear if people call you "lazy" coz you know you're not..


See, I'm the one that thinks it's lazy.



-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[Private Pile]

I've read all of the posts here and have come to one conclusion: I am no longer riding my segway into my bathroom. I no longer want to be called "lazy" for doing so.

Also, an isle and an aisle are two different things, but I would turn on my machine before riding on either of them.

Finally, I am very sorry I missed the LA get-together in the park. I was in Texas golfing, not gliding. Is this going to be a regular thing? I'd like to meet up with y'all, and I promise no "playful bumping."

What was the topic again?

[nocanfly]

Very interesting topic but I've yet to understand why someone who is able-bodied would want to ride indoors in a store or mall. Disabled people and their advocates have worked so hard in getting access to public space. Can you imagine not being able to enter businesses or government buildings because of your disability. That was an unfortunate reality for disabled people for a long time. The struggle to have equal access is ver profound since they were shut out from what we take for granted. However some people are compelled to appear to the public as disabled when they are not. Consider the reaction here on this subject and we are all pro-segway. Others who are not aware of the segway are going to see things differently.

On the other hand I'm able to understand that if a store wishes to provide access to segways then that is terrific.

[wheels]

quote:Originally posted by Private Pile

I've read all of the posts here and have come to one conclusion: I am no longer riding my segway into my bathroom. I no longer want to be called "lazy" for doing so.

Also, an isle and an aisle are two different things, but I would turn on my machine before riding on either of them.

Finally, I am very sorry I missed the LA get-together in the park. I was in Texas golfing, not gliding. Is this going to be a regular thing? I'd like to meet up with y'all, and I promise no "playful bumping."

What was the topic again?


Here is the thread for the next meeting. toybuilder is putting this one together. Any questions.. contact toybuilder. Look forward to meeting you.

"Life's a wheelie when you're on a Segway"

[Linc2000]

If you can be barred from an establishment because you don't have shoes and tie then you can certainly be barred while on your Segway or while eating purple ice cream. Hey, likewise, customers can take their business where ever they want to. Lincoln [8D] P.S. Soup Nazi's unite! However, don't let Elaine B. get her hands on your private recipes.

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[god1138]

I've weighed in on this "indoor/mall" topic many many times in the past in other threads and now, after stepping back from the topic for a good long while and getting some more gliding experiences in the book, I think I'm ready to contribute something further to this site.

There are good places and bad places to glide. Purely from an experiential standpoint, I've found some uses for gliding inside a business...

For instance, and probably to mrleisure's dismay, I do glide into the convenience store. It's probably the best indoor environment to glide in -- easy in, easy out. It's quick, fast, and you don't have huge crowds of people on every aisle (unlike a mall).

I take the Segway to the grocery store for lunch 3/5ths of the week. I glide through the front two sets of doors, dismount, walk it through with power assist, get my food, check out, and then re-mount as I leave through the store's exit.

The other 2/5ths of the week I get food, I glide through any restaurant's doors, dismount, and walk it until I leave.

Other than that, any business I am a customer of, I'll do the same.

Why? Because doors and threshholds and entrances are most cumbersome when attempting to push a Segway through in power assist. To date, I have had no one complain, not store management, not any employees, not even a customer, complain, ban me, or deride me from this course of action.

Even moreso, I do this because I want to show responsibility and respect for these businesses, gain their acceptance, and *maybe*, just *maybe* someday have those around me be so very comfortable with the Segway and so accepting of it that there is no perception of threat or immenent danger. Someday, just maybe, I will be told it's ok to glide indoors and throughout my shopping experience. It's not laziness that I would want to glide indoors, but without adequate parking a locking facilities (and believe you me, every single one of these places are lacking such a thing), it makes less sense to dismount and push a heavy device where you lack solid control of it versus when you can be ON IT and have complete and total control of it while still being safe to those around you.

Eventually, I would like to see more places I frequent gain acceptance of the Segway for use indoors. When that happens, we may see more malls and more retail establishments allow and welcome these machines. It's like a contagion that spreads... we are planting those seeds and we can watch them grow and branch out. But we must do it responsibly, proving its merit and safety, a little at a time. That whole "marathon, not a sprint" thing I hear pt say all too frequently... well, it applies here, too.

Segways are a rarity at this point in the game. Sometimes, I feel we all better play it cool and gain acceptance in small, incremental ways and THEN see if we should turn on the pressure if need be. We're infants in a manner of speaking, and we have to gain that trust first. I want nothing more than to have the convenience, security, and ease of gliding anywhere I choose and never have to dismount, but I don't want to shove myself on anyone. The places I can go that I can glide inside are few and far between, but I'll take what I can get and work slowly on the rest. There's no need to rush anything... we truly represent the "evolution of mobility" but as with any evolved method of anything, there are many behind us who have yet to catch up... and when they do, I think you'll see a shift in policy.

However, I do see the inherent benefit with those who may need the Segway for physical reasons. Those that need it should feel free to take up arms and press harder for the mobility it restores -- ADA and whatnot, there's no reason they shouldn't have the right to pursue it. I'm all for it... and in fact, I have found out recently I'm suffering from an affliction that causes arthritic-like pains in my joints and I may even have a reason to pursue that right myself, though I'm not sure I want to use that reason right now -- I'm kinda sitting on it to get some relief first through medication. I'm 26, look healthy, feel healthy for the most part, and yet I've wondered if I felt like anyone else did after a long hard day of mall-shopping in that I had aches and pains. Maybe I was normal, maybe I had a reason I ached and had soreness in my joints. I found out two weeks ago I had a reason -- so my doctor and I are working on it and we'll see where it goes.

Purely from a hypothetical standpoint, and this one's just for kicks, what's going to happen when a mall that uses Segways for security patrols and has a store inside that SELLS Segways (you know it will happen eventually!) tells customers they can't use their own Segways inside? Quite the quandary!




-Robert
"BORN TO GLIDE"

[BruceWright]

They sell bikes in my mall. You can't ride them inside.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[god1138]

Like I said, Bruce, it was just for kicks. But let me add to it:

If a store sells Segways, wouldn't they have to train people, likely on-site? Also, wouldn't they need to demo it for prospective customers?

-Robert
"BORN TO GLIDE"

[BruceWright]

In a mall local to me, there is a skateboard park. They sell skateboards, have classes, ride skateboards.

I'll give you three guesses as to whether or not they allow skateboard-riding anywhere in the mall besides the skatepark.

They also have a commutter scooter store in that same mall. They sell go-peds, city bugs, zappys, etc.

Again, 3 guesses if they let people ride those in the mall.


And here's the clincher: It's an outdoor, open-air mall.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[QuadSquad]

Well, I just returned to St. Louis and I thought I'd give this just one last shot. On the way from Sarasota this morning up to the Tampa Airport my wife insisted that we stop at the Prime Outlet Mall so she could hit the Dana Buchman and Ellen Tracy stores. This is an outdoor Mall and covers at least 30 acres maybe 60 I don't know but we unloaded my Segway and I went exploring while she did her shopping. I spent the entire time inside of stores and outside stores talking to people about the HT. There were many young people there but they weren't the ones that were the most interested, it was the elderly, it was people in wheelchairs, another guy with emphysema and a whole group of ladies who had a friend that they thought could really use one. Having this discussion fresh on my mind from last night I paid real attention to the reaction of people as I went by. I paid attention to something else to, and it really hadn't occurred to me previously. You see my wheelchair at the bottom of the wheels (they have 4° of camber) are 32 in. wide. Wider than the HT. It occurred to me that if a store were wheelchair accessible and even more importantly wheelchair friendly they would also be HT friendly. When I was in the Nike store I was able to maneuver successfully with the HT through the racks but only barely. I wouldn't have been able to maneuver in my wheelchair. But I digress! I will tell you that virtually everyone that I met today in that Mall in Sarasota Florida had never seen an HT in person. They didn't know where to go buy one, they didn't know where they could go see one, quite frankly they didn't have the slightest idea about where to start if they were interested in one. I spent a great deal of time telling them about Nev R Land in Celebration just a short drive from there and they were all delighted. Virtually everyone who post in this forum is a HT owner and enthusiast and in all candor are terrific ambassador's for the Segway HT and Segway LLC and whether you ride them indoors, or outdoors depending upon your particular frame of mind I feel that most will present the HT in a positive and informative fashion and that will leave a good taste in the general public's mouth. If you're considerate and willing to take the time to talk to complete strangers generally I've found them to respond positively. If they have a positive feeling about you they will probably have a positive feeling about the HT and that will be their impression going forward. So for me, since I'm disabled, I will always ride inside, I realize for the able-bodied there are places where it wouldn't be appropriate or allowed. They let me ride mine to the front door of the airplane, through the terminal and I know they'll never let the able-bodied do that, nor do I think that they should. But from a general perspective I think the more people are around HT's and particularly with the early adopter group the more positive they will all feel about them.

[RWC]

It seems like there are themes knocking around this thread: Public Perception; Gratuituous Use of Segway and its affect on P.P.; "Rights" in Public VS "Rights" in Private. Now, as I step up to the soapbox....

Public vs Private
Seems like we all (mostly) agree that if it's not allowed by the owners, then it's out... and it's too bad (unless you are disabled with a sticker and you can leverage with ADA support). As Lincoln said it might be too bad for the store's revenue as well.
I think Public Gliding is a must, in train stations and Airports, etc. as long as it's safely done and self-limited A LOT to avoid bad P. P.(see below). Go slowly even if the way is clear to glide. When gliding in the wide platform tunnel at LA's Union Station, I reached a spot that was wide open. I could have "demonstrated" how fast and safe and fun it was to glide at 8 mph... but with all those people lugging baggage and briefcases... plodding along, I didn't think this was a good gamble. Too easy to get scowled at by at least a few people. But I did glide faster once I got outside, near the cabbies and it was fun for all... (I think)

Gratuitous Gliding:
It might be a kick to glide to my table at The Sizzler, and it might be safe and many people would certainly dig it... but would you do it? I may be a grinch but when I trod along in Macy's or Safeway and some slowpoke with kids in tow is blocking my way my internal dialogue is not pleasant. If it is someone with mobility problems that are visible, then I'm just a little less vile. If I was impacted IN THE SLIGHTEST by a segway or someone with supper-wide pancake sneakers or someone wearing one of those new urban sombrero's - it doesn't matter what it is - I would pick at them in my head. If my knickers were in a bunch that day i may even complain to someone... it's up to me, no? As a glider, do you want it to "up to them?"

I think a glider opens themselves up to the MOST CRITICAL reaction from people when gliding in an even somewhat confined space like a store. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S SAFE or if people just need to understand or if 3/4 of the people like it. WHY? ...

Public Perception and... EASY damage:
Public perception is key to us because any individual with a mind to can dramatically affect our access to places to glide. If the Mall of Cardiff bravely invited Segways in, and just two people, or even one, called security or management to complain about the danger or inconvenience - those complaints would carry A LOT of weight. ..Even if those complaints were entirely without merit. Doesn't matter.

Same goes for the inner dialogue people like me would have. If I saw a segger moving along in Home Depot I WOULD say to myself... "good for him, but jeez, why does he have to ride it in here?" Then the next time it comes up in conversation, or ?, I would probably relate something negative about it. = Negative attitude. The flip side: if I was in Home Depot and saw someone roll in and tie it up deftly inside the door or outside, I would think "Boy that's cool. Wish I had one" = something positive, no?

RIGHT NOW WE ARE MORE ABOUT JUST GAINING ACCEPTANCE. If evangelizing, or selling the vision, or paving the way risks simple acceptance, then I would hedge toward acceptance. It's not so much about physics, public safety, or laws as much as it's about Hearts and Minds. I'm not saying avoid PR risks at any cost, just avoid the obvious ones


Be patient ...
Be patient ...
Be patient ...


Our track record, Segway's natural charm, and it's obvious benefits (that are apparent to us but have to be realized by others) will win over people and institutions and stores. Pretty soon we'll be able to point to a history of safety, wide use by disabled and others with mobility problems, and businesses who allow them.

Even inventors and revolutionaries not only pick their battles but also their opportunities. Be wary of "striking while the iron is cold", especially if it's hot in just a few minutes or just 100 yards away.

Now to go rinse off all this soap.



Take care, R.

"The best way to control your cow or sheep is to give them a large spacious meadow... and a Segway with all terrain tires" - Suzuki Ralphi

[RAG1247]

This entire thread has been repeated several times in this forum, and it is evident that person A and person B, who have conflicting opinions, are never going to convince each other to rally to their respective side.

While the Segway, from its inception and as readily detailed in the enacted legislation of most states, has always tried to portray itself as a pedestrian (which many members seem to use as a divine right to go where every pedestrian now goes), the idea of a motorized device which can move at speeds of up to 12.5 per hour can truly not be perceived as a pedestrian. The whole pedestrian concept, IMO, was developed to allow for less restrictive legislation to gain approval and avoid areas such as licensing, registration, insurance, lighting requirements, etc. Such a concept has no doubt benefited all of us and Segway LLC.

IMO, however, no one in the development of the ht, ever anticipated or advocated its use in stores, restaurants, or other inside establishments. The only possible exception might be when such devices are used by those with a legitimate disability or mobility problem. Unfortunately one sees far too many people in Florida with a handicapped permit parking in a handicapped parking space and then literally racing into the mall or store.

My own feeling, based on my own circumstances, is that I see no need to take it into the mall or any store, other than to possibly place it inside the entrance to an establishment for safeguarding, with permission. IMO, one incident with a Segway in a store, will set the movement back and will not advance the cause of Segway use. We seem to have a lot of expert Segway operators in our midst who seem to think that it will not happen to them, but as in the case of cars, accidents happen. We (Segway users) are an extremely small infinitesimal group and some have stated that stores who do not allow the Segway into their establishments will suffer from the fact that the Segway owner will not purchase there anymore. Ludicrous! Similarly, others make statements that they have to take it into the store since there are no facilities for locking or securing the unit. It will be many, many years before Segway locking facilities are made available. I am sure that all of us, at least one time have bumped into something, and outside this is not a problem. In a store, I think the same bumping will have a detrimental effect on Segway use.

One negative complaint in any store, even if without merit, will outweigh any and all good PR that might have occurred in the same location. People who admire the segway philosophy and use do not write letters to store or mall owners praising the segway. Those against segway use do however make their feelings known to such stores or malls.


Richard
Ft. Lauderdale
http://www.sonyguy.com/stars_rag2.gif[/img=left] [i]If you can’t change the people around you, change the people around you

[QuadSquad]

YEP, I think this dogs been whipped to death and nobody seems to be budging! But boy that Bruce, he can sure get em going!:D

[wayne]

It takes 12 people to tell something good but it only takes 1 person to tell 12 people something bad.

Most people notice the bad over the good, so don't ride inside a store and cause an accident unless you want safety to be the talk and the issue of riding a Seg in your Town.


Seg-On

[vpv]

OK.. so most of us will then agree that if it's allowed, you can ride it inside, if it's not allowed then don't.

Next topic.....?

ps.. Privatepile.. the next LA SUG meeting is tentatively set on August 9. If you want to be notified via email, please sign up with the LA Segway User Group at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-Segway/join

Thanks.

[JohnHHarrington]

Linc2000 -- you state -- "If you can be barred from an establishment because you don't have shoes and tie then you can certainly be barred while on your Segway".

The reason for these requirements are based upon health codes, not owner preference. Note these requirements are seen at food establishments.



Happy gliding -- John

[BruceWright]

I have to wear a tie because of health codes?!!?

;)

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[toybuilder]

As a general rule, I don't ride within a store.

The few exceptions are the stores where you conduct your business at a single point walk-up location. Specifically, I glide in to the dry cleaner, the Jamba Juice, the walk-up ATM, and the post-office's PO Box lobby. I do this when the place is empty (or nearly empty). If the place is crowded, I'll definitely dismount.

Most other shops that I go to, especially the supermarket or the area restaurants, I will dismount somewhere close to the entrance. Depending on my "understanding" with the employees/management, I might dismount just as I enter, or dismount well before I go inside.

Malls are a little tricky in my mind, however. The connecting hallways of malls are not much different than sidewalks in my mind. In a way, malls are just repackaging the old town business districts into a more purposefully defined form. From that perspective, I could see a strong desire to "take the Segway with me".

In fact, I did this once when I went to an unfamiliar mall very early in the morning and had entered from the wrong side. There was practically nobody there, and there was plenty of space, so I didn't see much harm in gliding at the time. I did glide v-e-r-y slowly, though.

Much of this issue rests in public perception and reaction. Our well-reasoned justifications are mostly irrelevant as long as the general public's instant reaction falls to disapproval. We're potentially shooting ourselves in the foot with our overt use of Segways. But, then again, sometimes it takes a few avant garde folks to get the population moving to a new kind of thinking.




http://www.pasadenasegway.org/
A bicycle in 1897 cost $25 ($2,200 today adjusted for inflation).
A Ford Model-T cost $850 in 1908 ($75,000 today adjusted for inflation).
(Can anyone point me to historical prices of horses?)