Washington Metro allows Segway use (update).

[clm]

UPDATE -

As per new information by RedKey and John Harrington, there is no specific written Segway policy yet at WMATA and a period of review exist. For now it appears that the metro tolerates Segway use in stations by the disabled, and unpowered transport of Segways through stations by the general public. See details in the post below.

================================================== ================
Orignal topic post:

Reading from another thread WMATA apparently has approved Segway use on or about June 3rd.

Background: Initially WMATA tolerated Segway use. On or about May 10th they banned them from stations, but a "moritorium" to this ruling was issued while the ruling was reviewed.

[Brooster]

Good to hear. One step back, two steps forward. Thanks CLM.

Brooster

[pt]

is there a link / quote / press release?

cheers,
pt



quote:Originally posted by clm

Reading from another thread WMATA apparently has approved Segway use on or about June 3rd.

Background: Initially WMATA tolerated Segway use. On or about May 10th they banned them from stations, but a "moritorium" to this ruling was issued while the ruling was reviewed.



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[RedKey]

I'd love to have an official source for this information....
If I'm to use the Metro (walking my Seg), it would be good to have a print of official information.
If anyone finds this, please post.

[clm]

I sourced this news from another discussion group. The author rides the Metro daily aboard her Segway. The post credits "a Metro station manager", but no post as yet citing a separate policy confirmation.

Perhaps you can call WMATA and confirm since you have a stake in this?
Of course good luck finding anyone there that knows anything about it.

Chris

[Blinky]

quote:Originally posted by pt

is there a link / quote / press release?

cheers,
pt



quote:Originally posted by clm

Reading from another thread WMATA apparently has approved Segway use on or about June 3rd.

Background: Initially WMATA tolerated Segway use. On or about May 10th they banned them from stations, but a "moritorium" to this ruling was issued while the ruling was reviewed.



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

What is the link CLM?



http://www.bl.com/ben/gifs/Blinky.gif http://www.harpy.net/paul/blinky.jpg

[Blinky]

?quote:Originally posted by Blinky

quote:Originally posted by pt

is there a link / quote / press release?

cheers,
pt



quote:Originally posted by clm

Reading from another thread WMATA apparently has approved Segway use on or about June 3rd.

Background: Initially WMATA tolerated Segway use. On or about May 10th they banned them from stations, but a "moritorium" to this ruling was issued while the ruling was reviewed.



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

What is the link CLM?



http://www.bl.com/ben/gifs/Blinky.gif http://www.harpy.net/paul/blinky.jpg


http://www.bl.com/ben/gifs/Blinky.gif http://www.harpy.net/paul/blinky.jpg

[GlideMaster]

Her Segway??? blinky is this who we think it is.? Could she be trying to disseminate a little misinformation.

<center>The GlideMaster</center>

[RedKey]

I emailed METRO. We can walk the Segway through the station (that's all I want). Response is below:
----------
Metro is currently working on a policy to address the Segway in the stations. You may currently walk the device through the stations.

[pt]

redkey-

that is -perfect- in fact, anything more may cause problems...this is great to hear.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[toybuilder]

That is good -- I don't see why Segways couldn't be on the train like any other cargo. I wonder, though, what happens to someone like Kinky who actually needs to be on the HT even on the platform? Hopefully, she'll be allowed to glide all the way to the train by showing her disability placard...

http://www.pasadenasegway.com/
A bicycle in 1897 cost $25 ($2,200 today adjusted for inflation).
A Ford Model-T cost $850 in 1908 ($75,000 today adjusted for inflation).

[BruceWright]

The ADA specifically is about program access, not absolute access. A disabled Segway rider's needs could be served as well as the safety needs by a metro station employee assisting a disabled segwayist safely with a hand on the handlebar across the platform onto a train.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[AtlSeg]

quote:Originally posted by pt

redkey-

that is -perfect- in fact, anything more may cause problems...this is great to hear.

PT--I currently ride to the platform for the Atlanta MARTA trains--but power the Seg down and push it onto the train. I suspect each transit authority's stations might be different: some might be better suited for "in station" gliding than others. I don't think there is a generic answer for this.

Dick (Richard) in Atlanta

[pt]

so far it appears that in station riding is the quickest way to get kicked out and banned.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[BruceWright]

Dick,

At the Los Angeles MTA, they require Segways to be turned off on the platform because they have an electrified third-rail.

Not sure what type of trains you have at your station, but that was the determining factor safety-wise in Los Angeles.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[tombarnes]

Now that I know I can at least take the Segway on a train, I might try it tomorrow. I wouldn't even consider actually gliding in the stations. Off to Great Falls tomorrow with the Segway! Tom Barnes

Tom

[AtlSeg]

PT, Bruce.... Atlanta has no requirement that the Segway must be powered down and pushed on the platform. I checked early on with them. Again, I think it depends on the particular transit authority. The platforms in Atlanta are generally very wide. Bruce, yes there is a third rail "down in" the railbed. To say that "it appears that in station riding is the quickest way to get kicked out and banned" is just a little to generalized for my taste; while we do have some varying anecdotal evidence here on SC, my recollection is that it is limited to a few cities only.

I Seg safely and responsibly, and with courtesy toward pedestrians and my fellow travellers. I seriously doubt that my behavior will result in a "ban". However, if MARTA decides to change the rules, I will gladly abide by them.

Dick (Richard) in Atlanta

[clm]

quote:Originally posted by pt

so far it appears that in station riding is the quickest way to get kicked out and banned.

cheers,
pt

I know of no one who has been kicked off or banned from rapit transit.

Chris

[pt]

chris-

kinky (was a member here) as well as a fellow in oregon were both kicked off (google for the links). i think it's a really *bad* idea to ride the ht in station areas, but hey-- those are choices that others will make no matter what any of us think or what the facts suggest. work with the various transit authorities of course.

be safe.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[AtlSeg]

On the other hand, I would NEVER operate a ROBOT DOG inside a transit system (unless, of course, it is for a visually impaired person).

PT--I would suggest that "but hey-- those are choices that others will make no matter what any of us think or what the facts suggest" is just a little bit too offhanded. If it is your opinion, fine. Please don't speak for me ("any of us").... opinions are fine....sometimes yours come off a little too much like pronouncements. IMHO.

Dick (Richard) in Atlanta

[pt]

yep, all simply opinion, based on what the facts suggest so far and the folks i've spoke with. i'm not quite sure robot dogs have to do with this besides poking at me, but hey-- have at it.

be safe.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[AtlSeg]

I really don't want to belabor the point too much, but I certainly would consider giving your opinions far more weight if you could share the facts you rely on, or perhaps who the "folks" you've spoken with.

Dick (Richard) in Atlanta

[pt]

when someone says "not too belabor the point too much"...usually what follows is that, is that :-]

richard, i really don't care either way if you give my opinions any weight, nor will i try to convince you (or anyone else) about anything...or will i mind when you poke fun at the fact i own a robot dog which i write software for, have at it ;-]

it's all good.

using public transportation and the segway ht is a goal we all have, many have been able to when they've worked with the transit folks. other times, some issues can happen which can lead to problems (sometimes from riding in a transit area, other times where education).

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/
state2003/segwayindc_2003.shtml
http://tinyurl.com/e25v

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/
steve_duin/index.ssf?/base/news/105481460497911.xml
http://tinyurl.com/e25i

that said--i've spoke with transit authorities in seattle, olympia, minnesota and new york about the segway ht and . this is all for an article i'm writing about how to work with cities, i'm trying to get the segway added to the monorail system here in my area while it is being constructed. it's been my experience when talking with these folks that riding the ht in the station is something they will not allow in the short and long term. there might be some areas that do of course, i'm talking about in general across the country.

generally, this quote from the news story i linked is common until we can work with them:
===Metro officials say the Segway, which can travel as fast as 12 mph, is unsafe in a subway. "It's just not practical or safe," said Fred Goodine, Metro's deputy general manager for safety. "Given the congestion in our stations, we're not going to allow a 13-mile-per-hour vehicle to go rolling down the platforms. It can easily knock into somebody or knock them into a track bed."===

of course, things -do- change.

i think we all have the same goal and want to gain acceptance. the compromise to pushing the ht as opposed to riding it what most cities will be okay with, at least that is my opinion after speaking with some of them.

be safe.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

6/11/03 - edited to shorten the URLs so that the thread is easier to read. - use the Tiny URLs to click to sites pt has listed.

[clm]

quote:Originally posted by pt

chris-
kinky (was a member here) as well as a fellow in oregon were both kicked off (google for the links). i think it's a really *bad* idea to ride the ht in station areas, but hey-- those are choices that others will make no matter what any of us think or what the facts suggest. work with the various transit authorities of course.
be safe.

cheers,
pt


There is only one problem here - Kinky did not stay off the Metro, not even for a single day. She continues to use WMATA in her daily commute.

You should follow ifa story you are going to cite it over and over as your counter-example. This will enhance your credibility. Kinky has persued her own interest rather successfully, but also has had no interest in posting progress reports to this forum.

Chris

[pt]

chris-

i knew you were going to post that :-]

i'm not looking to enhance credibility, i posted examples. and from what and how i've heard from talking with people who work in transit, the general vibe has been "thumbs up" for the ht...but pushing it inside the station is what they seem to want.

when the article is complete, you can comment on that too :-]

it's all good.

be safe.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[BruceWright]

What I'm looking at, in terms of my city MTA, is the powering down of Segways in stations where there's an electrified third rail. I think that's a reasonable request. LA MTA worked with Segway to study and develop their policies, and I think they make sense.


I think that anyone using the Segway for mobility purposes should be allowed an exception when possible and with the assistance of MTA personnel.

A runaway Segway getting away from a user and falling to a track-bed is something that happened at the Washington DC metro. I, and others here expressed our fear that such a mishap may cause injury or death in the future. I hope we never see an accident like that repeated.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[mzokc]

It is good to hear of the power off standard in train stations. Since the HT should never be in balance mode while riding on a train, shutting it down before boarding makes sense.

At our Civic Center Music Hall, management and I have agreed it's best to push it. They glided around with guests in the lobby, so they know how the HT works. Walking the HT may take up more room, but right now folks are more comfortable seeing it pushed like a stroller in an indoor theater lobby area. It's the accepted way to get it to the coat room for storage. The same technique is used at the Museum, and at the arena where there will be turnstiles to walk around. The ballpark with it's patio atmosphere was OK with gliding to the storage area.

Mark

[wheels]

I will post on this thread but it can apply to any thread when the HT is referred to as a, "12.5mph vehicle". If the preceeding is valid I request all vehicles be labeled by their top speed. We better get those 100-150mph cars off our streets. I don't want to share a crosswalk with a 150mph car. So let's keep cars out of the crosswalk.
25-30mph bicycles will have to go too. That brings to mind skateboards, skates, etc. They will all have to go !

When anyone speaking with you refers to an HT as a 12.5mph vehicle, ask them their opinion of 120-150mph cars (you might add "a 120mph-2 1/2ton suv) in the crosswalk or on streets in a business district.
That's my opinion.

One way..... SEGWAY ! !

[BruceWright]

Wheels,

You forgot to mention the Sidewalk! Because all of those 150mph cars also use driveways!

I much prefer sharing the Sidewalk with a Segway.



-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[JohnHHarrington]

First, Anne (formerly Kinky on this forum) did NOT post, on the DC-Segways chat group, that metro now approved of Segways, she reported on the chat group that a station manager had said they were approved, which was misinformation on the station manager's part, not hers. It was hopeful thinking on hers. To suggest she was "spreading misinformation" here belies how you feel towards her, and illustrates a lack of full understanding of what has occurred.

Second, Washington DC's metro system is currently undertaking a review of a policy on EPAMD's, and Anne has secured atleast informal support from atleast one disability group, as they agree that a disabled person should have the right to utilize a Segway to facilitate their transportation within a public system such as metrorail. During the review, Metro has placed a moratoreum on their "
ban", which actually did not exist, because they never had a policy in place allowing OR banning them, prior to placing a moratoreum on it. At this point, metrorail did an excellent job of sending out a message one morning to ALL their station managers, but a poor job of communicating the moratoreum on the ban shortly thereafter. So, some station managers are of the opinion that they are banned, and Anne has done a trailblazer's task of informing them of their misinformation, as she proceeds to use the metrorail system. I use the metro in DC myself, with my Segway, and I personally walk mine in and out. My one concern is if I am setting an example of walking it, and for those that must use it, making it more problematic for them.

Third, a rail official, not in washington, raised the "electric device versus third rail" issue while grasping for straws (excuses) as to why they were unsafe, then, when actually questioned on this issue, was himself derailed in this line of thinking, as it carries so little water it's worse than a sieve.

Lastly, as a result of the possibility of DC metro's acceptance of EPAMD's, I contacted their Public Affairs office, and confirmed that there was still a review, and I reported that to the chat group. I hope this answers the question regarding DC metro's current status of acceptance of EPAMD's. I certainly will be the first to share with SC when a formal accepting policy comes forward.

Happy gliding -- John

------------
www.DC-Segways.com - A Washington DC, Maryland, and Virginia Segway community resource.
If you live in DC, MD, or VA, and own a Segway, or are thinking about buying a Segway, visit this resource for local laws, and other community news and tips.

[toybuilder]

Excellent post John! There's a place in my heart for D.C. and the Metro because I visited my sister there about a year ago and spent a few days exploring the city and made good use of the Metro.

http://www.pasadenasegway.org/
A bicycle in 1897 cost $25 ($2,200 today adjusted for inflation).
A Ford Model-T cost $850 in 1908 ($75,000 today adjusted for inflation).

[pt]

this is great.

john, could you write up a "how to" that i can keep on my site for folks looking to work with transit folks? and some of your experiences?

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[BruceWright]

Thanks for the info, John.


Could you clarify the following point for me?

quote:Originally posted by JohnHHarrington



Third, a rail official, not in washington, raised the "electric device versus third rail" issue while grasping for straws (excuses) as to why they were unsafe, then, when actually questioned on this issue, was himself derailed in this line of thinking, as it carries so little water it's worse than a sieve.



I don't really understand what that means. Does it mean you spoke with the LA MTA official that I mentioned, or was this another rail official? This is the reasoning why they aren't allowed to run powered on the platforms in LA, as described. Why does that argument carry so little water? It seems to make sense to me.

Falling, electrocution, the danger of being run over by a train. All of those things are with us every time we're on a platform. Not to belittle what progress people are making for access, but the systemic safety problems remain, ban or no.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[clm]

Thanks John, for the clear update.

Chris

[QuadSquad]

<center>"If you give them enough rope, they will most assuredly hang themselves with it" </center>

Although I have tried to resist posting on this particular thread and others since May when this particular subject first appeared I am no longer able to contain myself. First of all so there is absolutely no doubt about where I'm coming from I am disabled and second of all it is my personal belief that at the end of the day Anne Kinkella will have done more for the rights of HT users than all the moderators and senior members in this particular forum combined. The Segway HT required a super cerebral human being to conceive it, design it, and build it, but its beauty rests in its simplicity to operate. We need no Grand Masters of the Segway operation to assist us. If you can stand up, step up eight inches, know the difference between right and left and forward and backward and have any common sense at all you can operate it is well as the next guy for its intended purpose.

In April I got involved with writing letters to the Sacramento County Board of Supervisors, not so much because it would affect me a great deal personally (even though I travel there every year) but because of issues with the disabled, and those disability groups which were supporting a ban. Since that time I have corresponded and talked with disability groups, San Francisco politicians, the United States Department of Justice ADA compliance officers, and many others. The rationale that is surfacing in this particular thread is particularly alarming to me, not because of what's being said but because others are using it as a basis for a foundation about the dangers of the Segway HT and its operation. They reference experts on Segwaychat.com a site that has so much credibility that even Segway LLC will forward you there (with disclaimers) from their own web site. When I inquired as to which experts they were referring to, I was told you know the Moderators, and Senior Members. Why, just look at it all the stars underneath their names. With that in mind I would like to comment on a few of the quotes from this particular thread.

Quote number one from GlideMaster (a senior member) on June 9, 2003.
“Her Segway??? Blinky is this who we think it is.? Could she be trying to disseminate a little misinformation?"

I think that Anne was treated shabbily in this particular forum and I think it's a shame that she's chosen no longer to participate. She truly showcases the Segway HT's greatest contribution to society not a pipe dream of the future but a very real dream of today.

Quote number two from PT (a moderator) on June 9, 2003 in response to having to walk the device through stations.
“That is-perfect-in fact, anything more may cause problems... this is great to hear.”

And what problems would those be? If the HT can't be controlled effectively on a station platform then how can one expect them to be controlled on the sidewalks? There are plenty of people walking down the sidewalks that could be struck by an out-of-control HT and pushed into traffic, pushed through plate-glass windows in stores, etc. The truth is that the HT, if operated for its intended purposes is no more dangerous than any human being walking.

Quote number three from Bruce Wright (a senior member) on June 9, 2003.
“The ADA specifically is about program access, not absolute access. A disabled Segway's Riders needs could be served as well as the safety needs by a metro station employee assisting a disabled Segwayist safely with a hand on the handlebar across the platform on to a train.”

First of all, refer to my comments regarding quote number two, but for your information while absolute is a term that one should never use with regard to access, the ADA does provide for access on public property as well as private property. And when I use the term private property I'm talking about privately owned commercial enterprises and not your home. You can prohibit pets from entering your restaurant, stores, hotels etc. but you can't prohibit service animals for the disabled. You cannot require them to provide proof of disability or of the service animals training, you can't seat them in a separate area, can't charge them extra. Now if your service animal becomes a danger they can require you to remove it, and perhaps prevent it from returning, but they cannot prohibit a different service animal from entering one minute later based upon their experience with the previous one. Each must be treated on its own merit! At the end of the day the HT and its use by the disabled falls in the same category. And Bruce, if a disabled person needs a metro station employee to safely guide my handlebar across the station platform, then I think you should require an aide to safely guide your Segway HT down the sidewalk, (But only if there are other people present) this would prevent you from accidentally bumping into someone.

Quote number four from PT on June 9, 2003
“Kinky (was a member here) as well as a fellow in Oregon were both kicked off (google for the links). I think it's a really *bad* idea to ride the ht in station areas, but hey-- those are choices that others will make no matter what any of us think or what the facts suggest. Work with the various transit authorities of course.”

Yes and the people from Walk San Francisco think it's a bad idea for you to operate yours on the sidewalk. Maybe you should research the number of people in power wheelchairs that have been hurt on public transportation. I have no idea which facts you’re referring to but if you will be happy to provide them I will be happy to research them, that's what I do!

Quote number five from PT on June 9, 2003
“Using public transportation and the Segway ht is a goal we all have, many have been able to when they've worked with the transit folks. Other times, some issues can happen which can lead to problems (sometimes from riding in a transit area, other times where education).

&lt;Note: Long URLs deleted for spacing, see original post&gt;

That said--I’ve spoke with transit authorities in Seattle, Olympia, Minnesota and new York about the Segway ht and. this is all for an article I’m writing about how to work with cities, I’m trying to get the Segway added to the monorail system here in my area while it is being constructed. It’s been my experience when talking with these folks that riding the ht in the station is something they will not allow in the short and long term. There might be some areas that do of course; I’m talking about in general across the country.

Generally, this quote from the news story I linked is common until we can work with them:
===Metro officials say the Segway, which can travel as fast as 12 mph, is unsafe in a subway. "It's just not practical or safe," said Fred Goodine, Metro's deputy general manager for safety. "Given the congestion in our stations, we're not going to allow a 13-mile-per-hour vehicle to go rolling down the platforms. It can easily knock into somebody or knock them into a track bed."===

Of course, things -do- change.”

I think we all have the same goal and want to gain acceptance. The compromise to pushing the ht as opposed to riding it what most cities will be okay with at least that is my opinion after speaking with some of them.”

I'm unclear as to your qualifications and background for writing an article with regard to the HT and the public transportation. Based upon your opinions that you have outlined in this particular thread I can wholeheartedly say I would be very uncomfortable with your representing yourself as speaking for the entire Segway HT community. I will refer you to the suggestions made by Segway LLC regarding the four areas in which Segway HT owners should focus their discussion.


Quote number four from mzokc (a senior member) on June 9, 2003
“It is good to hear of the power off standard in train stations. Since the HT should never be in balance mode while riding on a train, shutting it down before boarding makes sense.”

It doesn't make sense for everyone, it didn't make sense for Anne Kinkella, and it doesn't make sense for me! If you think it makes sense for you then that's what you should do.


6/11/03 - edited for HTML content only, for readability

[pt]

it's my opinion that inside the station the segway ht should be powered off and walked through, if you have special needs, then of course that may not apply-- working with the staff of transit orgs usually results in some type of compromise that benefits us all.

again, my opinion- welcome to a forum where all views are represented and ideas exchanged. i enjoyed reading yours and agree with many of the points.

cheers,
pt


======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[BruceWright]

Well, a few strong points, Quadsquad. Well spoken, but I don't agree.

A few things.

On being a Senior member. I WISH I could take that off my name. All that means is I have wasted more time here than other people. ;) I don't think, by any means, that I have any more valid opinion than anyone else with experience in the matters at hand. Saying my "senior" status causes me to lord over other people, well, I can't agree with you there. It's just an artifact of the Segwaychat software. I'm not an official voice of Segwaychat. I don't represent them or Segway in any way. I have my own opinions, and sometimes they will be counter to everyone else here. Tell me, when two senior members disagree, where does that leave us as "official" voices of Segway owners?

I also don't agree with the idea that we here shouldn't discuss things that might get Segways banned if the opposing view was to "find out". As for my participation, I will always strive to say both sides of any safety issue that I think is relevant. Being an individual, and not an official voice allows me to do that. We can get the official safety line towed by Segway LLC. If these really are safety issues, I'd rather we discuss them now than after someone is injured.

I'll leave other people's comments to be defended by the people who made comments.

If you havent, please go back and read the original thread, and see that in the original incident there was quite a harsh reaction from the origial poster toward me, to the point of pushing the boundaries of civil conversation, in my opinion at the time. Since then, I have not mentioned the poster's name in ANY posts. I refer to the issue and the Segway rider in the abstract. As for me, I recognize that I didn't have a good experience with her, and so I make a policy not to discuss her.

As far as my quote goes, about program accessibility, I refer you to the US Department of Justice's "Myths and Facts about the ADA"

quote:" The ADA requires all government _programs_, not all
government _buildings_, to be accessible. "Program
accessibility" is a very flexible requirement and does not
require a local government to do anything that would result in an
undue financial or administrative burden. ...Let's say a town library has an
inaccessible second floor. No elevator is needed if it provides
"program accessibility" for persons using wheelchairs by having
staff retrieve books."

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/pubs/mythfct.txt

So that's where my viewpoint of "program accesibility" comes from. I do think that walking a Segway is a good compromise. Trying to serve the needs of the individual without compromising the safety of other riders.


Working with cities and gaining acceptance are all good things. And if you read my posts, you'll see that I primarily fault train station platforms for their triple threat of falling, electrocution, and being run over. The Segway is not the cause of these systemic safety shortcomings.

You mention that these dangers aren't significantly larger than the dangers of being on a curb on the sidewalk, with the street and cars. We should discuss that instead of "keeping score" on how each of us represents the community.

I would say that at least the fall is less, a ladder is not required to return to the sidewalk and safety, and the danger of electrocution is not there.

In future posts, *for speakers on both sides of the issue,* let's talk about the actual safety issues involved, and debate whether or not we think Segways on train platforms are reasonably safe instead of:

Attacking or defending the original poster as a hero or a villian.
Attacking people because of their status or newness of membership to Segwaychat.
Discussing whether or not we should discuss these issues in a public (or semi-public)forum.

I promise to do likewise.

The third one is up for debate, of course. But perhaps in a different thread. My point of view is that I'm going to say whatever I want, Senior Status be damned ;) To save you further trouble, I might jump on under a pseudonym, but I won't be silenced when I think safety is an issue.

If people you are dealing with are trying to bar you, and are quoting me out of context from my posts, have them call me on the phone then and there. I'm serious. I'll give you my number. The goal should be safety and access, not banning and discarding. I'll read them the riot act about "Why aren't your platforms safe from falling and electrocution?" They know station gates are the answer, and they don't do anything about it.

Anyway, good to know you're fighting for access. I do think the Segway is a marvelous tool for the disabled. Keep up the fight. :-)



-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[QuadSquad]

Well first of all, my profound thanks to Pam who edited my message and fixed it so people could actually read it! I really don't know my way around those buttons on that particular screen.

Secondly, I was in no way attacking anyone personally, many people read this forum other than HT enthusiasts. While I share in and enjoy many things that are posted by both PT and BruceWright I have communicated to both of you privately regarding the strong opinions of the disabled. That being said Bruce, I think that if you reread my message carefully, you'll find that I did not indicate that I thought your senior status caused you to lord over people, I said others reading this forum had attached particular importance to the status of moderator and senior member. I think that you have a right to say anything that you wish, I just want you to be armed with the perception of others. I appreciate your research into the ADA, I would like for you to reach further, there are thousands of pages and opinions written on it, some tested in court, others simply directives, education solves many problems, and so does communication. Sometimes when we make statements they are made with the best of intentions, but without thinking about how they affect individuals and all of their individual scenarios. If someone attaches importance to your opinion, I just want you to think it all the way through before posting it, if you've done that, that's fine.

[BruceWright]

No, I don't always think it through, and I'm thankful to you for pointing out that others are reading and selectively quoting us. Relying on our number of posts here to establish us as "expert witnesses" against disability access or whatever cause they oppose.

Thanks for the heads up on that, and I really encourage you to call them on it if they quote me out of context, because I really will go to bat for you any way I can.

Yeah, my knowlege of the ADA is really meager. I don't have to interact with the law in my daily life or work, so my opinion there is with the strong caveat that I'm talking out of my bottom.

Let me restate what I meant in a broader way, without invoking the ADA: "I think there may be a way to compromise that addresses the access needs of an individual while assuring safety of all patrons of the MTA. Banning isn't a solution, as it doesn't address access issues fairly."

Hope this restates my point of view in a way that doesn't presume I know more than I actually do. ;)

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream