faster heavier things than the ht on sidewalks

[pt]

seattle is a paradise, bikes everywhere. today i rode my bike with some cyclists all over, average speed on stretches of empty *sidewalk* was 10mph and top speed on a sidewalk was 22 mph.

...on the street and burke-gilman trails around 25 mph and other cyclist were passing me, all within inches of pedestrians at times.

these folks even weighed more than i do when i am on my segway ht and me combined (i weigh 167lbs). i was on my bike which has power assist (and is legal on sidewalks and the burke-gilman trail).

what does this mean? smaller, lighter and slower things like segways should be allowed anywhere bikes are allowed in my state. in my area that means sidewalks and trails like the burke-gilman. my bike has "motors" and "power" and the cyclists that were going faster than me did not have a power assisted bikes, so "human powered" is actually faster.

i don't think cyclists or anyone else would want something like the segway banned in my area- because that means heavy things: trailers, baby trailers, sidebags will not be allowed next. power assisted bikes wouldn't be allowed and riding bikes on sidewalk won't be allowed since the top speed (which everyone focuses on) is more than *twice* the speed of the segway ht -and- weighs more than i do, and they can go twice as fast as i can.

i have a trailer for my bike, my bike which has "motors" and i could actually tow the segway ht on the burke at 22 mph, but not ride it? that doesn't make sense.

also (thanks to sid)..

many mention potential accidents.

the segway regulates it's speed by platform orientation. if you "hit" someone (assuming you didn't slow down first) they will "activate" the brakes by pushing the control shaft / unit back. feeding the segway an input to reverse and stop.

this is not possible with a car, bike, scooter, mortocycle, or even yourself running at a brisk clip. none of those give up the ultimate control of the device to the pedestrain.

segway owners have spent thousands of hours on a segway, and the only way you could seriously hurt a person is if you intentionally wanted to hurt them, and even then a segway is not an efficient way to do that. in fact it is spectacularly un-efficient. if someone if going to hurt someone, that's another issue, it's not the bike, a car or segway that does that. accidents will happen, so far that hasn't been a single pedestrian accident, i've personally logged over 950 miles in less than 6 months in seattle, wa. segway owners can also get insurance (i did) for my bicycle i don't have the same options.

so it all gets back to personal conduct, common sense, civility, respecting others and yielding to pedestrians- on a bike or a segway ht.

cheers,
pt

[SegwayUtah]

pt, there aren't a dozen people riding around the park on bikes who have only learned how to use them 30 minutes before. That's the real problem, although the way they're addressing it isn't fair of course.

Chris

[pt]

utah-

yep, you know i agree with that :-]

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[hubbahbubbah]

pt, I think you have a great argument there. You could make it even more powerful (when you present it to whomever) by calculating the force with which you would hit someone (weighing a certain amount, including your segway, and going at a certain speed) and comparing it to you hitting them on a bicycle.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

The question is, how do you measure up to bikers in terms of the danger you present to pedestrians?

pt = 167 lbs
Segway = 83 lbs
Avg bike = 25 lbs

Hitting someone at 12mph on the Segway is equivalent to hitting someone at 15.625 mph on the bike, a 3.625 mp difference, very small.

(167+83) x 12 = (167+25) x 15.625

And then, you haven't even begun the arguments about Segway's maneuverability and limited top speed.

Also, there is only 58 lb difference between a Segway and a bicycle, so an other way to look at it is that when you ride the Segway, you're just a FAT GUY ON A BICYCLE. (this is not a suggested Segway bumper sticker... )

Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

[pt]

thanks hubbah-

you're right, the ht is far more maneuverable than a bike in tight areas and the ht speed IS limited, in fact it can be limited to even less with the keys AND the new model (p series) according to the spes goes 10 mph tops which is even less AND it weighs less than an i series.

as long as people use commone sense, respect each other and yeild to pedestrians i think bikes and hts are fine on sidewalks and multi-use trails.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[BruceWright]

The Segway is a slower, easier to manuver, self-balancing e-bike. That's my new description when confronting folks who want to ban it.

Why ban something that's SAFER than the status quo? It's about perception, and these descriptive comparisons are where you can fit the Segway into existing categories of understanding and acceptance.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[Sid Viscous]

Something your all forgetting.

the segway regulates it's speed by platform orientation. If you "hit" someone (assuming you didn't slow down first) they will in sense "activate" the brakes by pushing the control shaft back. Feeding the Segay an input to reverse.

This is not possible with a car, bike, scooter, mortocycle, or even yourself running at a brisk clip. None of those give up the ultimate control of the device to the pedestrain.

I have many hours on a segway, and the only way you could seriously hurt a person is if you intentionally wanted to hurt them, and even then a Segway is not an efficient way to do that. In fact it is spectacularly un-efficient.

[pt]

sid-

thank you for that, i plan to add that to my article and my post now.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[Brooster]

Sid, all of your posts have been great, but this one is particularly noteworthy. Thank you!

Brooster

[hubbahbubbah]

quote:Originally posted by Sid Viscous

Something your all forgetting.

the segway regulates it's speed by platform orientation. If you "hit" someone (assuming you didn't slow down first) they will in sense "activate" the brakes by pushing the control shaft back. Feeding the Segay an input to reverse.

This is not possible with a car, bike, scooter, mortocycle, or even yourself running at a brisk clip. None of those give up the ultimate control of the device to the pedestrain.

I have many hours on a segway, and the only way you could seriously hurt a person is if you intentionally wanted to hurt them, and even then a Segway is not an efficient way to do that. In fact it is spectacularly un-efficient.


I think this is a good point but something I wouldn't bring up for two reasons:
1) it's difficult to explain, in my opinion
2) I'm not sure how much it reduces the 'ouch' factor. Someone would need to run tests on this.

Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

[clm]

quote:Originally posted by pt

... what does this mean? smaller, lighter and slower things like segways should be allowed anywhere bikes are allowed in my state. in my area that means sidewalks and trails like the burke-gilman. my bike has "motors" and "power" and the cyclists that were going faster than me did not have a power assisted bikes, so "human powered" is actually faster...

Good rational arguments - but I bet this line gets you nowhere. To the rangers your Segway is but a motor vehicle and is therefore contraband.

but - FYI - here is a line I am working. Tell me what you think...

First the history for you newcomers to the forum:
In California I was brushed off the park trails summarily. I cited our Segway EPAMD law and was told no, we are "parks" and parks goes by the California Resources Code. I did my homework and found that the code references the Vehicle Code for traffic rules. The Rangers then cited the local loophole and said that I was still banned.

Now here is the new angle. The local loophole is in our statute to allow local officials and park officials to address local exceptions. An exception is like the closing of a road for repair or a parade, or the banning of traffic for particular subpar right of ways. Now Ranger Bob is citing this provision to ban my Segway from all park trails as seems to be the case in Seattle with the Burke trail. Now this is an abuse, but how can it be addressed?

Well, I look back at the Resource Code and found what a Ranger "is" and found what he swears to do as a Ranger. Sure enough his oath provides that he uphold both the letter and the sprite of the law. That's it. He swears to uphold the intent of the law. Clearly the legislatures intends to allow EPAMD uniform end-to-end access via trails and sidewalks.

Where does it say that Rangers know better about goodness than the legislature?

Well here is the thought. Are your park officials working to implement the intent of your lawmakers? Ask them to explain themselves in the light of the EPAMD law.

If they sight separate jurisdiction, then research where there authority originates. I bet there is a good chance you will find a Vehicle Code referral similar to California's.

Chris

[pt]

we don't want park access, we want people to be able to use the burke-gilman multi use trails which i used today on my power assist bike following cyclists, many with power assisted bike as well, many with trailers going well over 20 mph weighing more than i do on my segway ht.

my parks dept. can do that, they can say no parks, trails are fine. if there are problems, enact a ban.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[PoloAk]

I never thought i'd ask this, but where are all the lawyers? Arent there any seg owners who are trial lawyers??? We could sure use the advice!

Kelsey

[Brooster]

Hubbah, I have to ask ... have you ever even ridden an HT?

Brooster

[hubbahbubbah]

quote:Originally posted by Brooster

Hubbah, I have to ask ... have you ever even ridden an HT?

Brooster



Indeed, I have -- as Frank is my witness!

Does something I said reek of ignorance?


Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

[ElectraGlide]

Who can best "yield" to a pedestrian ?? A biker ? or a Segway ? Well , the Segway ofcourse......the Segway is safer on a narrow sidewalk.....the biker cannot come to a COMPLETE stop without a dismount od some sort. The biker cant reverse his course in a confined area! Seems to me a Segway makes the best sidewalk companion to other pedestrians......plus the temptation to speed cannot be accomplished with it's 12.5 limit.

Steve

[pt]

i think responsible people can yield best to a pedestrian.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[terryp]

I pedal well over 15 mph too most of the time I'm on the trail, but I slow down and announce myself before passing. I see hot-rodders all the time that squeeze between other trail users without doing either. My collision with the kid was probably six or seven years ago, but I'll always remember how bad you can get hurt on a bike, even at low speed.

I've never seen an electric bike on the trail that I know of, but maybe I just don't know what to look for. I've heard that Bothell Bike and Ski is selling one brand, so I'm guessing that pt's right about them being allowed on the Burke-Gilman, which is right behind their business. Maybe if we occasionally step one foot down to the pavement, we could claim that the HT is a human-powered wheeled vehicle that is electrically-assisted, like the bikes ;)

I know I've never seen a skateboard on the trail, so I'm guessing that they're not allowed there. But the Parks Dept. stated that only pedestrians and human-powered wheeled vehicles are allowed, and skateboards are human powered wheels. The whole thing seems pretty arbitrary. Until they respond to our emails and phone calls to clarify things, I'm going to continue to glide on the trail since I'm not on an 'motorized scooter'.



Practicing Safe Segs in Seattle

[pt]

terry, you'll never notice most e-bikes, they look just like other bikes. i'll post a picture of mine. also, there are 20 longboarders on the burke right now- i just got back from using mine! (wallingford) and they are allowed.

btw, i did a rollerblader smack a cyclist with their arm, nothing major- but i don't recall seeing the media flocking to it, in fact- the guy said sorry and that was it :-]

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[terryp]

E-bikes are the ones that Lee Iococca was promoting a few years ago, right?

Practicing Safe Segs in Seattle

[RedKey]

We're convinced.... Time to convince park/city officials......

[Sid Viscous]

Hubbah

It is a little difficult to explain. Easy to demonstrate. It's difficult to explain because there is no other device that has this ability of putting on the "brakes" or slowing down without the rider trying to.

To demonstrate.

1. Segway owner gives a demo ride to someone else, so that they can be comfortable riding. (black key)
2. The segway owner should always play the pedestrian.
3. Ask rider to come at them, stand with your arms crossed, and be prepared for it, it's not bad but stumbling around looks bad.
4. 9 times out of 10 even with the rider trying to hit the "Pedestrian" they naturally stop without hitting the ped. If they do have them do it again.
5. when they hit just stop them. Then reach out with your hand and grab the handlebar. Show how even with the rider leaning forward as hard as possible the pedestrian cannot only stop them, but actually push them backwards.

I've done this with someone who weighed 350+ about 100+ lbs more than me. Not a problem. Had one guy who actively tried to run me over. Not just hit me, but hit me and kept going. I took about two steps back before I grabbed the handlebar and brought him under control.

I'm not the worlds greatest Segway advocate, and I think that it's uses are limited, I highly doubt it's going to "Change the world." However, the safety concerns that people/goverments bring up are just ludicrous. I have had many many people step out in front of me at full speed. No crash. In the factory they are zipping around constantly, to my knowledge no-one has ever been hit. About the greatest danger to a ped is if you were to loose control and fall off and sent the Segway flying and it hit somebody it would hurt. As for ped/segway collisions, it's less dangerous than a jogger, and much less dangeraous than a bicycle or skateboard.

It does have an image/stigma to overcome though, and you guys are the only ones that can do that.

Thanks Broo

[pt]

actually, i call an e-bike any bike with power, assisted or augmented. i'll post some photos soon.

quote:Originally posted by terryp

E-bikes are the ones that Lee Iococca was promoting a few years ago, right?

Practicing Safe Segs in Seattle


======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[terryp]

Here's the one I was thinking of http://www.nycewheels.com/ebike.html

They also show an e-scooter there. So the bike is legal and the scooter not. Doesn't make sense to me.

Practicing Safe Segs in Seattle

[pt]

terry..

here's my bike, it's legal everywhere...and it has "power"

http://www.bookofseg.com/bicycles/sm_pt_bike.jpg

it looks like a regular bike, but with a water bottle.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[billc]

Nice description by Sid Viscious!

(You guys are actually taliking about conservation of momentum)
Makes the Segway a far safer pedestrian partner.

ps... how's Nancy


Bill Contoyannis
Manager / Rehabilitation Engineer, REHAB Tech
Centre for Biomedical Engineering - Monash University

[toybuilder]

Yeah - the key point that most people seem to miss is that the whole Segway platform is the control for forward/backward motion, that the onset of a collision automatically starts the decelleration of the system, and that a person's natural reaction to lean back when he's about to collide will also slow the system down.

But it's so counter-intuitive to people who don't understand this -- it will be a struggle to get over their "common sense" notion of what wheeled devices do...


http://www.pasadenasegway.com/
A bicycle in 1897 cost $25 ($2,200 today adjusted for inflation).
A Ford Model-T cost $850 in 1908 ($75,000 today adjusted for inflation).