Negative RI article and discussion at MS Forum

[jillmac]

At an MS Forum I visit a lady posted the link to the article about renting Segway. This sparked quite a discussion on the Segway in general along with a link to a very negative article by Rital Lussier of the Providence RI journal. It lists her e-mail address and snail mail address

reetsal@aol.com
Rita Lussier
Features Department
The Providence Journal
75 Fountain Street Providence, RI 02902.

Here is the link to the MS forum discussion and below I have copied the article:

http://neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/ubb/Forum261/HTML/005116.html

Here is her article (my apoligies if this has already been discussed - I must have missed it if so).

For the moment by Rita Lussier: High-tech marvel has some heavy side effects
'Segway conspiracy carries some weight

05/14/2003


I've never been one for conspiracy theories.

I mean, okay, maybe the Mafia and Castro really were behind the Kennedy assassination. Maybe the moon landings were really filmed on a Hollywood back lot. Maybe UFOs are real.

But mostly? No. I don't lose much sleep at night worrying about this sort of thing.

On the other hand, something caught my eye the other day and I'm beginning to think there might be an actual conspiracy going on right under our noses and we don't even see it. I'm talking about The Segway Conspiracy.

Have you heard about the Segway Human Transporter? I hadn't either. But then my husband -- a technology addict -- told me about this new personal transportation device that some guy named Dean Kamen invented.

No, it doesn't work at the cellular level. There's no special elevator, no Captain Kirk, no Mr. Spock, no "Beam me up, Scotty." Unfortunately, it's much more pedestrian than that.

If you've never seen this thing, imagine one of those old push-type lawnmowers, only with an electric motor and an internal gyroscope that keeps it from tipping over while you stand on the lawnmower part and you've got the idea. And there's a handy basket for carrying things, too.

If the people who make the Segway have anything to say about it, one day soon we'll all be riding these things up and down the sidewalk and won't life just be wonderful when we don't have to walk anywhere anymore. Yessssss!

Hold on. Not so fast.

Didn't a New York attorney file a class-action lawsuit against McDonald's on behalf of a bunch of overweight kids? And don't public health care costs attributable to obesity amount to more than $100 billion a year? And isn't Southwest Airlines now doubling their fares for passengers who need to double their seats?

Then, I don't get it. I mean, if we're so fat, then how come Dean Kamen is so hell-bent on getting us to exercise even less than we do now? Something strange is going on here, folks. Think about it. A growing number of us can't even tie our shoelaces and this guy wants us to walk even less?

Apparently so. And get this. He wants to charge us five thousand bucks for the privilege! But at least according to the Segway people, it's worth every penny.

"The Segway has the power to transform everyday life on multiple levels. You can travel over three times faster than you can walk, so a trip that once took 30 minutes now takes fewer than ten."

Translation? That way you can hit both the McDonald's AND the Burger King on the way to the dry cleaners. Of course, where you're going to hang your clean shirts and that skirt with the French fry stain on it, I don't know. But at least there's a handy basket for milkshakes!

I tell you, I see a conspiracy coming on. The way I figure it, once a week, Ronald McDonald gets together with Dean Kamen. Maybe the Krispy Kreme people are there. Maybe even the guy who invented the TV remote. There could be others. I don't know. Together, they plot their unholy scheme to turn us all into a nation of sumo wrestlers.

Oh, I know what the Segway people say. They say this is the beginning of a new dawn for humanity. That one day, there will be Segways everywhere. That the more Segways we have in this world, the quicker we'll travel. The more we'll accomplish in less time.

And I guess we'd better. Because if more of us don't start getting some exercise, chances are, nobody's going to have much time to accomplish anything.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to tie my shoelaces.

Rita Lussier can be reached at ReetsAL@aol.com or by mail c/o Features Department, The Providence Journal, 75 Fountain St., Providence, R.I. 02902.









Nothing is inexplicable, merely unexplained..... Dr. Who

[pt]

i wrote her, it won't matter.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[fathertime]

Ms. Lussier is obviously doing this tongue in cheek, but I don't understand the logic. Just because one uses the Segway HT it doesn't mean that that person has given up walking, breathing, or doing anything else that humans do on a daily basis. These are personal choices. Certainly the automobile would be the culprit not the HT!
Gliding and physical exercise are two separate issues.

JR

[god1138]

Here's what I emailed to her... man, I'm proud of myself now!

****************************
Rita,

I read with great dismay your diatribe on the Segway Human Transporter. I promise, I'm trying to be nice here, but you just don't seem to "get it" when it comes to the Segway. Chances are, you've never ridden one, never bothered to look beyond the prima facia evidence of just what it is capable of doing, and you probably have never spoken to a Segway owner either.

Instead, you withdrew the moment you learned about it, and instead of giving it some good, hard thought, you fired off a superficial, emotionally reactive assesment of your own opinion. Unfortunately, it also was wrong.

I speak from experience, as I am a Segway owner. I don't use it to replace walking... not by any means. I've never been a health nut, but I'm very able bodied and in great physical shape. See, some people I've met during the course of ownership have thrown that barb at me -- "Aren't you going to get fat because you're too lazy to walk?", and I guess if you used the Segway instead of walking and didn't ever set foot to ground it might not be the best for fitness purposes, but that's not what it's meant to do.

Instead, many of the Segway owners use it to replace short CAR trips -- or to travel to places it may be too far to walk, but to short to drive. I do it every day when I get lunch, or when I go to my night class at the community college campus nearly four miles away. And before anything else is said about it, it takes some athleticism and muscle to survive a four mile trip on a Segway, on a sidewalk, with constant changes in elevation between slabs at the expansion joints. My ankles are stronger than they've ever been, my legs have a very nice muscle tone now, and, yes, I've lost weight since I purchased my Segway (in the ballpark of 10 pounds over just two months!). See, the funny thing is, the Segway is so much of a joy to ride that I feel compelled to be outside and on it any free moment I have. I'm compelled to leave the comfort of my house because I enjoy it so much. Free from sitting in front of my computer and eating Chee-tos, free from sitting down on the couch and reclining while getting a massage and watching TV, free from the near-sunless confines of a four-walled room. Free from sitting on my buttocks, free from being immobile, which is the biggest contributor to obesity. The alternative to Segwaying (or 'gliding' as my fellow owners regard it) is driving, not walking. Driving in your air-conditioned, leather-seated vehicle while you pollute the environment and sit on your ever-widening-butt while you drive through McDonald's for a quarter pounder with cheese is L-A-Z-Y. That's the alternative to Segwaying, not walking. Besides, there is a weight limitation on the Segway, and if one is too big for it, it wouldn't be safe to glide. What fun would that be? I think that's incentive enough for anyone teetering on the edge to consider a greater diet or workout regimen: once you glide, you fall in love with the feeling.

I think you may start to get my drift when I tell you I have a tan and have more self-confidence about myself than I ever have.

And let's not forget one of the greatest advantages owning a Segway has: that of the social order. I'm serious as a heart attack when I write this -- owning a Segway has made me a better social conversationalist. I've met more of my neighbors in two months than I have in nearly three years of owning my house. All of them by name -- the whole neighborhood. And I've met more people in the city in which I reside than ever before as well... I have legions of friends. Probably more than many journalists will ever have. Sorry, I told you I'd try to be nice... I take that last comment back.

Seriously, and all jest aside, I think you didn't consider the alternative as deeply and profoundly as you should have. Much has been made of the auto/Segway comparison and I can tell you it's like night and day. Cars surround a person and withdraw them from others, it's been compared to a "glass and metal cocoon" and that's a really fair assessment of the way it truly is. How many conversations have YOU had in your driver's seat with people around you (cell phones do not count!)? That's what I thought.

I hope I've given you a little to think about and hope you change your tune a little on the Segway. Any time I see a journalist lambaste something in which they couldn't possibly understand fully, I feel a little disheartened. Pieces of journalism, inflammatory ones at that, are useless, typically based in error, and slamming something you do not understand is very irresponsible. Remember, you have the privilege and duty to shape the opinions of your readership, and I urge you to do so more responsibly from now on.

If you want more information, please email me and I'll be glad to help you, particularly if you want to print a retraction.

Thanks for your time.

Sincerely,

Robert O'Sullivan
**** ***** ***.
Deer Park, Texas 77536





-Robert
"BORN TO GLIDE"

[Neelix]

Well put together, god!

-------------------------
Fear not, for even though I come from the Forbidden City, I surely do not agree with the rules.

[BruceWright]

Here's mine.



Ms. Lussier,

I read with little amusement your mean-spirited column about the Segway human transporter. I am continually amazed at how many people misunderstand the use of the device. Not only do you have the facts wrong, your argument is based on insults. I promise I'll be more polite to you in this letter than you were to me in your column.

Before I tell you about my Segway, I would like to ask some you some questions.


How often do you walk to work, Ms. Lussier? How far is that?
Surely you carpool every day you aren't walking or riding a bicycle. Right?
How many times a week do you drive to the local post office, or the dry-cleaners? How far is that?


I use my Segway instead of a car. I ride it to work, 7 miles each way, 3 days a week weather permitting. I'm cutting down on pollution and congestion on the roads, and I'm out in the sunshine chatting and nodding hellos to the people in my neighborhood. Everywhere I ride, people stop and cheer, wave, give the thumbs-up and toot their horns. I am a Clean-air commuter and a member of my company's Commuter Assistance program. My company's Commuter Views newsletter is doing an article on my commute. I try to set an example for people to explore alternative transportation options. I attend company Earth Day forums and Transportation Fairs, explaining the Segway, and using it as an attention-getter for our company's rideshare program. The Segway may not be for everybody, but EVERYBODY can do something to cut their smog emissions.


I'm going to ask you, Ms. Lussier, have you ever ridden a Segway? Do you know how much physical activity is required to ride it? Do you know that one hour riding a Segway is about the same amount of exercize as an hour of walking?

I'd like you to ride a Segway for five miles and tell me how your calves feel the next day. I ride 14 miles a day.

Now imagine that, and understand how much more lazy driving a car is for 14 miles. It might be hard for you to imagine, since I'm sure you jog to work daily and never take a car for any trip that's less than 5 miles. Right.

Maybe you can see why I found your column to be mean-spirited. You insinuate that Segway users are fat slobs who need a way to avoid walking to the Burger King and the McDonalds, and need a basket to carry a milkshake, while spilling grease down our fronts. I can't politely express how mean a statement I think that is. I wonder if your column regularly picks random groups of people to ridicule as fat disgusting slobs. This week, Segway riders. Next week, sports fans and bingo-players?

Ms. Lussier, I urge you to do better research next time you write about the Segway. A writer is only as good as their sources, and you just pulled a Jayson Blair. Next time meet and talk to a Segway owner. Find out from them how they use it. Ask them if they have replaced walking, or if they're replacing driving. You may be surprised at the answer. Try one for yourself. Try understanding that even if the Segway isn't right for you, it may be right for someone else. I've reduced my car trips by over half. I know other owners who gave up a car and never looked back.

I would also suggest that the next time you write about something you haven't seen, tried or met an owner of, you be more considerate of people's feelings. People like you are opinion-leaders. Someone reading your column becomes a nasty driver that I have to deal with on the street. A nice lady in her fifties I know who rides her Segway because of a medical condition has to deal with catcalls from smug people who have the gaul to call her lazy.

And now, you have called her lazy too. It was she who sent me your column.




Bruce Wright
Segway owner
Sherman Oaks, CA




-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[god1138]

Well said, Bruce. I'm going to give the gov'nor a "harrumph" on this one! Fine job!

(if you didn't get the reference, watch Blazing Saddles!)



-Robert
"BORN TO GLIDE"

[pt]

bruce writes the best letters, i always enjoy them. thanks bruce, your thoughtfulness and wordsmithing has helped many of us.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[toybuilder]

Well, I think there are lots of people in the world that have come to a similar conclusion on their own. She just happens to have written it down and had gotten published.

Yes, I think she's missing the point. But that's going to happen. What we need are other opinions that highlight the positive aspects of the Segway and explain why the device makes sense.

http://www.pasadenasegway.com

[dhugger]

I emailed her and basically told her that I'm in better shape now than before I had the HT. I have a way of getting to the gym now without a 20 minute walk and have actually put on 5 lbs of muscle. And now, if I'm bored, instead of sitting on my butt browsing the internet, I go for a glide... which certainly burns more calories than sitting.

-Derek Hugger-

[dhugger]

oh and by the way bruce, AWESOME letter!

-Derek Hugger-

[BruceWright]

Thanks all.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[Private Pile]

I wouldn't get too hot and bothered about this article. She's trying to be funny, and sadly, she just doesn't have the stuff. She works for a small-market newspaper and is probably assigned some weekly humor column. She's obviously going through the motions with dreams of being Dave Barry. It's kind of depressing if you ask me. But nothing to worry about.

[jillmac]

i e-mailed Ms. Lussier, but I sent a letter to the Editor also.
Jill

Nothing is inexplicable, merely unexplained..... Dr. Who

[god1138]

I just received a personal reply to my above email sent to Ms. Lussier.

Here it is:

Dear Mr. O'Sullivan:

I enjoyed hearing about your experience with the Segway. I especially
liked the part about physical conditioning and social transformation. (Are
you sure you don't work for Dean Kamen? -- just kidding)

If others are able to embrace this invention in the same spirit as you
have done, well, then I'm all for it. My opposing view was rooted in my
belief that the Segway would provide most people with the perfect excuse to remove
any last vestige of exercise from their schedule. I could be wrong.

So, thanks again for setting the record straight on one happier and
healthier Segway rider!

Best wishes,

Rita Lussier



-Robert
"BORN TO GLIDE"

[BruceWright]

And did you write back:

"But did you have to be so rude in the way you expressed your belief? Could you have taken it upon yourself to do some research and talk to Segway owners?"


I still haven't gotten a response to my email. That's what I'm going to ask her in the event I recieve a similar response.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[god1138]

Yeah, Bruce, I'm still formulating a response to her response to my response. I bet she writes you back pretty soon as well... so I'll let you follow up with what you posted above -- trust me, I've got more to say to her and I think I will sit on her response for a few hours and let it sink in first, then go in for the "kill"! ; )


-Robert
"BORN TO GLIDE"

[Peter iNova]

My letter to Rita (using my Cruel Thursday license):

Rita,

I think it's fine to write predictive articles without ever gathering clues. Sure, why not? Who needs to try a thing before coming to a vast array of conclusions about it, anyhow?

Why if every journalist were required to understand the thing they were making scattershot predictions about, newspapers would come out days late.

Never mind that traveling on a Segway is vastly greater exercise than riding or driving a car. Kinda like water skiing on the sidewalk, but don't ever try one or you might find out your waist is shrinking.

It's obvious that the only thing these things are good for is doubling up on your lunches, so punch up the obese angle every time you feel it's needed. It's a fat maker, pure and simple.

And that guy in Seattle who has been losing six pounds a month commuting on it instead of driving his SUV? Pure sophistry.

Not.

-iNova

http://www.glidewalk.com

[jillmac]

I too got a reply today and here is my response.....

Hi Rita:

Thank you for your reply to my e-mail.

You asked if I used my Segway on the sidewalk or roads. Mainly I use it on the sidewalk and a local paper did a short article regarding my ownership.

The reporter contacted the local police department to get their take onSegway's on the sidewalks. The police statement was that the Segway waslegal on sidewalks and that Segway owners had the same rights aspedestrians.

An interesting phenomenon when out riding my Seg is that although I get alot of questions from all ages, those most interested are either older folkwho have problems getting around, or from people who have a relative who has mobility issues.

What you have to keep in mind is that there are millions of "invisible" disabled. You see the ones in wheelchairs and on scooters. For each of the obviously disabled there are dozens who are not able to move around freely as they would like.

We aren't just talking about the obvious - those who use a cane or walker, or crutches - you have to take into account those with heart disease, lung problems, immune problems that leave you with severe fatigue or weakness and a whole host of other problems.

Most of these people have to plan their activities very carefully and have given up a lot of what they were capable of in years past.

Walking the mall, swap meet, theme park etc. etc. - g etting to the theater from a parking lot, getting to a concert, getting around a museum or library is out of the question. They end up seeing their family members doing these things alone, or the family members joining them in the imposed immobility.

Just running to the store can be a major event. You can't go on your own
two feet because you may well end up in bed when you get home just to
recuperate, and even hauling out the car can be a huge effort - getting in and out etc. so you just go without whatever it is you needed.

San Juan Capistrano where I live is an older town teeming with visitors. I glide around the streets, keeping at the same pace as the foot traffic and either pulling over, or stopping altogether to let people past. The footprint of the Segway is just about the same as a human, and the turning circle is such that it can be easily maneuvered into very tight spaces.

I have been in crowded situations at the end of 5K/10K races (my daughter runs) where there is shoulder to shoulder crowds. I have been amongst crowds of boisterous schoolchildren where I volunteer (numbering many dozens at one time). Through all this I have not bumped into a single person, I have not run over any toes, have not hit any property and have not had an accident! (I did ridge into a hedge on my first trip out when someone called out to me and I turned to look at them. You learn very quickly to keep your eyes forward).

Had I been on my own two feet with my cane I probably would have bumped into many folks, trodden on toes and possibly even fallen. I am FAR less stable on my own two feet than I am on the Segway. I fight to stay balanced on my feet most days, on the Segway - it does all that work for me. I am 100% more agile on the Segway than I am on my own feet.

What irks the community of owners is the perception that the Segway is a lazy way out.

Even for the able bodied people who are using the Segway you have to
understand that for the most part, they are using their Segways to replace short car journeys, not to replace walking.

This is responsible behavior, not the behavior of a lazy person. Several people I know commute to work each day. On shorter distances in city environments it can be a LOT quicker to Segway than to take a car. You are also eliminating some of the pollution out there, not buying gas and as one user says, not sitting on your rear end with a cell phone in one hand and a latte in the other!

Why not use a bike. Well the obvious for me is that I can't use a bike, but again, let's take the able bodied person........ He or she is using the Segway to get to work. Compare.

Bike: Arrive at work needing a shower and change of clothes.
Segway: Arrive at work ready to work, go to meetings or whatever.

Which would you choose.

Most of the Segway users also use bikes, visit the gym and DO walk.

I really do suggest that you give one a try. Even if you aren't convinced of their use in society, to ride one is quite an exhilarating experience.

The Segway has far exceeded all my expectations and using it gets better and better every single day as I find more places I can visit and more things I can add back into my life.

It's an amazing machine, and unfortunately, articles such as yours do a disservice to a lot of people. Someone who is challenged in their mobility might dismiss the opportunity of enhancing their lives because they see your view of the Seg and think it is just a toy and would serve no purpose in their lives. They also might be fearful of being labeled 'lazy' by others should they buy one. They may also be very mistrustful of a company in conspiracy with the fast food restaurants as your article suggested!

Better that you do some more research into the benefits of the Segway and write an article saying that you have had your eyes opened to a whole new use for the Segway that you weren't previously aware of.

As to your 'knocking' Dean Kaman - I also suggest you do more research into the gentleman and possibly change the perception you have that he is in cohorts with the fast food industry! His invention has literally opened up all sorts of possibilities for me and his other inventions are well worth some research!

Thank you again for replying to my e-mail.

Sincerely,

Jill McAlester
jillmac@earthlink.net




Nothing is inexplicable, merely unexplained..... Dr. Who

[BruceWright]

Wow, nice response. Did you get the same letter back that Robert did?

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[jillmac]

Bruce - this was my letter from Rita Lussier.

Dear Ms. McAlester:

Thank you for your very informative letter in response to my "Segway" column.
Believe me, if this invention can make such a difference in your life, then
I'm all for it. (Question for you: Do you ride on sidewalks or roads?) I'm
glad you brought this usage to my attention.

Best wishes,

Rita Lussier

I was fairly critical of her lack of research into the uses for the Segway and of her rather sarcastic remarks regarding Dean Kaman.


Nothing is inexplicable, merely unexplained..... Dr. Who

[pt]

she wrote back to me:

============================
Dear pt,

Thanks for your note about the Segway. Believe me, if I were to be convinced
that this invention would be used by most people to replace their cars -- as
you have done -- then I would be an advocate!

Best wishes,

Rita Lussier

============================

folks, this is always a good exercise....we'll need to write many letters and each one is worth the effort.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[SegMe]

I dislike this negative media coverage. I am surprised because she seems to be "dissing" her husband. The Segway might take excercise away from some, but it wouldn't affect most of us. The segway can replace walking but mainly driving. I personally use mine to get around when I wouldn't be walking. This doesn't take any excercise away from me.

[BruceWright]

quote:Originally posted by pt

she wrote back to me:

============================
Believe me, if I were to be convinced that this invention would be used by most people to replace their cars -- as
you have done -- then I would be an advocate!

Best wishes,

Rita Lussier

============================





Hmph.

So to recap, she did no research to find out IF people WERE using them to replace walking or driving, and our letters to the contrary make no dent on her already-made-up mind.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[pt]

bicycles don't replace most people's cars (it didn't replace mine) i guess she's against those too.

cheers,
pt


======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[ElectraGlide]

One thing I've noticed over the last couple months....when I'm at Starbucks , the grocery store ,the mall or a local lunch spot , there's almost always a curious bystander who asks that same question " What about the exercise , cant you just walk here " ? I reply "DID YOU WALK HERE TODAY ? " 100% have fallen silent...they ALL drove a car ! Thats when I add that my travel was done without pollution , and my Seg even added a little bit of fun to the travel. For the same price of a Seg you can buy a large Plasma TV >>no exercise there ( nor fresh air )!!! Sit in front of a TV with a bag of chips , or drive the seg ????

Steve

[BruceWright]

Interesting point. I like that retort.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[GlideMaster]

<center>Walked about six miles this morning now I'm ready to Live the Glide.</center>

<center>The GlideMaster</center>
<center>http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete/1267/gif/segway.gif</center>

[terryp]

Here's what I wrote...

Hello Rita,

I read your Segway article on the internet, and wanted to give you another owner's perspective (I'm sure that mine isn't the first).

While I'm sure that many people found your piece to be entertaining, it was also very misleading. To me, it looks like a typical example of lazy journalism - so much easier to belittle and find fault with something you don't know anything about than to take the time to research it and write a factual, informative article.

it's also obvious that you don't have a clue as to who Dean Kamen is, or his motivation for the Segway's design. If you had done so much as a simple Google search, you would have learned that he has over 150 patents, mostly relating to medical devices that have significantly improved the lives of many thousands of people, our vice president among them. The Segway was designed as a replacement for gasoline-powered vehicles for trips that are too long or difficult to make on foot, but too short to be sensible for a car, truck or SUV.

As a member of SegwayChat.com, I'm convinced that the Segway has not caused any of the owners who frequently post there to become lazier or less physically fit. The Segway has allowed several with disabilities to go places and do things they couldn't without it. Many are like myself, using the Segway to commute to work, where the most likely alternative is an inefficient, enclosed, polluting vehicle that contributes to traffic congestion. When I'm commuting on the Segway I'm off the highway, enjoying the fresh air, and often making new friends. In my car I'm forced to pay much closer attention to my driving, (and the driving of others who frequently don't pay enough attention), I'm breathing less-than-fresh air and, if anyone waves at me, it's likely to be with one finger. I arrive on the Segway awake, refreshed and smiling, not tired and stressed.

The Segway hasn't meant less exercise for me at all. I still spend several hours at the gym each week (although I usually Segway there instead of drive), bike an average of 100 miles a week, mow my lawn with a push mower, take the stairs instead of the escalator, and eat a healthy diet. I'm at an average weight for my height, and haven't gained a single pound in the two months I've had the Segway, even though I use it almost daily.

This is the only 'review' of yours I've read, so I don't know if it's typical. If it is, perhaps your readers already know that you write to be humorous rather than to inform. If that's the case, perhaps there was little harm done. But if you wrote what you thought to be true, despite your lack of research, then you have done your readers a disservice. You owe it to them to make arrangements to try a Segway for yourself so you have at least some idea of what you're describing, compile the responses you've received from actual users, and then publish an update.

Sincerely,

Terry Perdue
Kenmore, WA

Practicing Safe Segs in Seattle

[geekfactory]

And mine:

Rita:

A few quick thoughts re: Your Segway article...

1) I own a Segway.
2) I live in Manhattan - it replaces cabs and subways. I've saved close to $500 in the past two months.
3) I've run 9 marathons, with my best time coming at just under four hours.
4) I've run numerous triathlons, with my best time varying from 6th in my age group and on.
5) I came in 5th out of 125 teams in this year's Urban Challenge (www.urbanchallenge.com)
6) The Segway, combined with the fact that I'm in shape and smile a lot, has been better for my social life than a walking around the city with a puppy AND a baby.

I'm sorry, but you're so VERY off target on this article.

I'd be happy to chat with you more about this, if you so desire. Or, perhaps we could meet for a 10k or something similar.

Best,

-Peter Shankman

[BruceWright]

Here's what I got back:


ear Mr. Wright:

Thank you for your response to my Segway column which, of course, was meant
to be sarcastic and not mean-spirited. Sorry you didn't see it that way.

It is interesting to hear about your experience with the vehicle, which is so
unlike that of the Segway owners I know. If I could be convinced that more
people were using it to replace or reduce their dependence on cars, well, then
I'd be all for it.

I appreciate your letter and your insight.

Best wishes,

Rita Lussier

P.S. As it turns out, I do walk to work every day.




So apparently, all the Segway owners she knows are using Segways so they don't have to walk?!!?

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[pt]

she cut and pasted the same response to me. it's interesting most / all segway owners report that they've replaced at least some car trips, many report -many car trips and some report almost all car trips.

from what i understand, she asked someone here for a demo, why would she need that if she knows someone with a segway?

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[BruceWright]

My response:


ReetsAL@aol.com wrote:

&gt; It is interesting to hear about your experience with the vehicle, which is so
&gt; unlike that of the Segway owners I know. If I could be convinced that more
&gt; people were using it to replace or reduce their dependence on cars, well, then
&gt; I'd be all for it.


Wait a minute, I have to call you on this one... How many Segway owners do you know, and did they really buy them so they didn't have to walk? Was this something they admitted to you, or you found out by observing them?

I ask this because I am a member of a large online community of Segway owners (hundreds in fact). Now granted, their Segway use is self-reporting. But the only ones I know who use the Segway to replace walking are people with a medical condition that keeps them from walking in the first place.

The reason I question you is that this is way outside what the hundreds of people I know report. Nobody I know, out of the hundreds, reports that they use the Segway instead of walking.

I also know that at least 10 or so of us online wrote you with how they run marathons, ride a bike also, use the Segway to eliminate car trips, and you sent us all the same stock message "well if more folks did that, I'd be all for them." I wonder how many more messages you got from people with Segways saying "That's what I do, just eat and ride, let those other fattys really have it!"


What was your response to the Segway story from Segway owners? Was it really overwhelming that the number of Segway owners who wrote you said that they replaced walking?


Anyway, thanks for your response.


I do have to deal with people's hostility to the Segway from time to time, even though people on first glance don't know that I'm taking it instead of a car. I know people with disabilities who get the same hostility from people who are emboldened by articles like yours to ridicule them.

You meant your article to be sarcastic and not mean-spirited. I know the style of article you were writing, I used to write similar curmudgeon articles for local newspapers in Los Angeles. I understand that they are meant to be humorous, and usually have an inanimate target, like a Segway.

But Segway riders aren't inanimate objects. They are people who share the streets with cars, and it's a scary world out there. People in the media and online shape opinions about us, and people act on those opinions. I've read more threats of physical violence against Segway riders than you'd believe. People posting "consumer reviews" of Segways on Amazon.com threaten to push Segway riders under busses. People posting on Slashdot.com have talked about wanting to attack Segway riders in New York.


People reacted strongly when Arianna Huffington and her group attacked SUV owners as Terrorist supporters. But folks right and left attack Segway riders as fat, lazy slobs (sucks to be a minority!). And they just get a few giggles.

But one ill-timed or ill-meant car door can end my life.


There are threats of violence against Segway riders, and they're all rooted in a feeling of smug superiority.



You said you walk to work.


Well, if more folks walked to work, I'd be against Segways too.



-Bruce Wright

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[willysnout]

I see that jillmac posted a link to the Segway discussion on the MS board. I am probably the most vocal anti-Segway poster there. I'm not going to make my final decision on this one until I use it myself, but from what I've read in a variety of places I am extremely skeptical of general usage of Segways on public sidewalks.

I find it interesting that the Segway company says the machines have a top speed of 12.5 mph, yet appears to have designed them for top speeds of 18 mph. Isn't corporate America great?! Casual bicyclists typically drive at 15-18 mph., and they are rarely allowed on sidewalks.

The way I see it right now anyway, the "Segway community" amounts to a group of spoiled kids who wah-wah-wanna have their way regardless of the consequences to others. You can see it in the postings in other threads on this board, in which Segwayers predict deaths as a result of the machines yet are perfectly o.k. with that.

I do think Segways can be of use to some of us who have a hard time walking in certain conditions. In such cases, I guess I'd see them as another form of motorized wheelchair or scooter. If someone wants to pay $5,000 for one and has a handicapped permit, I can't really see a reason to protest such usage.

But that's much different than high-speed capability on sidewalks. I think that general use of these things, if they ever become popular, will be a net disaster for the disabled. I'm an example of someone who can experience difficulty walking a straight line on the sidewalk. I've had worrying collisions with people as 2.5 mph, let along someone zipping along on a high-tech unicycle.

There are nearly 2 million blind people in the U.S., yet no one seems to care what they think. All in all, my gut feel tells me that the Segway is just one more example of the high-tech crowd's self-absorption. As for the inventor, I'd feel so much better about him if he'd work on reducing the price of his stair-climbing wheelchair from the current rich-man's price gouge of $30,000 each.

So, kids, I'm sure this will be an unpopular posting in this sandbox, but so be it ...







Be sure to smell the roses before you lose your sense of smell

[wayne]

Your car will run a lot faster than 100 MPH, do you drive it that fast on the street?
Well the Segway owners do not run wide open all the time like you think.
Don't be calling the Segway owner spoiled until you know all the facts.
Go ride a Segway, go talk to people who own them and go to a Segway training and then come back and let us hear you opinion.
Oh, by the way welcome to segwaychat, and I do agree that the price of the wheelchair should come down.

Go find a Segway this week and give it a try.

Smell the roses, try it before you leap.

Seg-On

[BruceWright]

Welcome, Willysnout.

I've seen you get into never ending back and forths with Jillmac on the other board. I really won't get into those tug of wars here with you, because you won't budge an inch.

But I will counter some of your claims as a one-time-only post.


As for safe operation on the sidewalk: Come and join me on my daily commute to work. That would be the only thing that would prove to you that they are safe in a pedestrian environment. Actually watch me operate one in a pedestrian environment for 14 miles. Short of that, you cannot be convinced.

As for the top speed: They can't go 18 miles per hour. All claims of a faster than 12.5 mph Segway have been lies, misunderstandings or fabrications. This has been stated to you before, but no re-stating will get you to believe it. The burden of proving otherwise is up to you.

You talk about one person's post as saying Deaths are okay. That's a misquote out of context, and it was making a different point, not one about safety, but one about political positioning. How about if I go to your old posts and quote you out of context? Anyone reading around here will see that safety is of the absolute utmost concern with nearly all posters here. You cannot read around here and find any greater priority unless you come here with malice.

Casual bicyclists can and are allowed to bicycle faster on sidewalks than Segways. At least in Los Angeles. You compare a bike's speed with a fictional speed of 18 for a Segway. You're fudging the numbers on purpose in your argument. That's intellectual dishonesty.

The speed limit allowed by law in the State of Georgia for Segways on the sidewalk is 7 miles per hour. A Rascal scooter goes 8, travels faster, weighs more, is less manuverable and has no legal speed limit.

I DO care what the disabled community thinks. I took time off of work and testified before the Los Angeles Committee on Disability about Segways. My testimony is a matter of public record. Go see what I said. You know what I testified about? Not about "please don't ban my rich kid toy." No, I talked about the disabled, and how they need to be able to legally use the Segway. I talked about people with limited mobility. I told them that a ban wouldn't affect me much, but it would impact all the people like Jillmac.

Saying we don't care about the disabled is not so at all. Check our membership rosters. You can't tell how many have disabilities, or how many are elderly. It's many many many more than you think.








-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[hubbahbubbah]

What other MS board are they talking about? Where is it? What's the URL?

Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

[willysnout]

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright

As for the top speed: They can't go 18 miles per hour. All claims of a faster than 12.5 mph Segway have been lies, misunderstandings or fabrications.[/b]
There have been numerous threads on this message board about Segway's original claim of 17.5 mph, and about how their literature still quotes travel speeds that calculate to 18 mph. The current machines are sotware limited to 12.5 mph, but according to other posters the componentry is designed for 18 mph.

quote:This has been stated to you before, but no re-stating will get you to believe it.
I haven't made a signle posting to this board prior to today. In discussions on the MS board, I've said that I think the machines will be hacked to go faster, but said nothing specifically about 18 mph.

quote:You talk about one person's post as saying Deaths are okay. That's a misquote out of context, and it was making a different point, not one about safety, but one about political positioning.
The poster's point was that deaths might be a political problem for Segway but that they were to be expected. I think that's callous, to put it mildly.

quote:Anyone reading around here will see that safety is of the absolute utmost concern with nearly all posters here. You cannot read around here and find any greater priority unless you come here with malice.
Does that include the poster who wants a faster Segway? Look, once the early adopters have them, the later adopters are going to include a whole bunch of people who misuse them. And the reality is that the Segway company and all the early adopters will wash their hands of the deaths and injuries.

Lip service will be paid, of course. It will be a matter of "political posititioning."

quote:Casual bicyclists can and are allowed to bicycle faster on sidewalks than Segways. At least in Los Angeles. You compare a bike's speed with a fictional speed of 18 for a Segway. You're fudging the numbers on purpose in your argument. That's intellectual dishonesty.
According to other posters on this forum, Segway is designed for 18 mph. It was originally advertised as such, but apparently software speed limiting was put in. I find it interesting that Segway's home state allows speeds of 20 mph. Very interesting!

quote:The speed limit allowed by law in the State of Georgia for Segways on the sidewalk is 7 miles per hour. A Rascal scooter goes 8, travels faster, weighs more, is less manuverable and has no legal speed limit.
The practical reality is that there will be little or no enforcement of those speed limits. Scooters are very uncommon because only the disabled use them. They are not a mass market product.


quote:You know what I testified about? Not about "please don't ban my rich kid toy." No, I talked about the disabled, and how they need to be able to legally use the Segway. I talked about people with limited mobility. I told them that a ban wouldn't affect me much, but it would impact all the people like Jillmac.

Saying we don't care about the disabled is not so at all. Check our membership rosters. You can't tell how many have disabilities, or how many are elderly. It's many many many more than you think.
All manner of people and corporate interests hitch hike on the backs of the disabled for financial gain. If you really cared, you'd testify that Segway use on sidewalks should be limited to the disabled, because general public use on sidewalks constitutes a threat to disabled people.

Instead, you testified about the disabled while promoting a law authorizing general use of a potentially dangerous vehicle on public sidewalks. To do otherwise would have conflicted with corporate interests and the selfishness of geeks who want the latest toy. In America right now, both of those things are big no-nos, especially the first.

Be sure to smell the roses before you lose your sense of smell

[pam]

OK, guys, Willie Snout is obviously a troll with a closed mind. Please, let's not feed the trolls &lt;G&gt;.
Pam

[wayne]

Willysnout,

I promise to move over for you if I'm ever on the sidewalk doing 18 MPH. So feel safe, "The Sidewalk Is Yours".

Seg-On (but not over 18 MPH)

[wayne]

You are right Pam. We should have checked to see if he, she or it had an e-mail address before replying.

Anyone that does not have an e-mail address should not get a reply.

SO PLEASE FOLKS DO LIKE PAM SUGGEST.


Seg-On

[BruceWright]

Willeysnout, all those posts you cite were thoroughly discreted. Selective quoting again. Re-read them, and not just the minority opinions that were proven false once the Segway actually started shipping.

Right now, you're considered troll status here, so no more replys for awhile. I do encourage you to keep reading, and not just using the search function to find any negative things. You may see that, gosh, we are human beings too, and we do care about our fellow citizens on the sidewalks.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[willysnout]

quote:Originally posted by pam

OK, guys, Willie Snout is obviously a troll with a closed mind. Please, let's not feed the trolls &lt;G&gt;.
Who has the closed mind here? I wrote that I won't make a final judgment until after I ride a Segway. You, on the other hand, see someone with a point of view other than your own and declare that person to be a "troll."

[willysnout]

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright

Right now, you're considered troll status here, so no more replys for awhile.
Anyone who isn't ga-ga propgandized into Segway's corporate line is a "troll" in your eyes, and like all fanatics you dismiss evidence you don't like in a knee-jerk fashion. Seems to be that the closed mind is yours.

By the way, Bruce, do you work for Segway? Also, are you aware that there are 1.7 million blind people in the United States, and that the organizations representing them oppose sidewalk use of Segways? So much for your so-called "concern" for the handicapped.

You obviously couldn't care less about the disabled. Frankly, I'm not terribly worried about the Segway issue. Even the "high-tech" communities like Seattle and San Francisco are banning these things on sidewalks.

All it will take to get them kicked off of sidewalks nationwide is a few deaths -- and they are inevitable. Do you really think that, at the local level, people are going to rule in favor of rich yuppies on motorized tricycles who cause the deaths and/or serious injuries of pedestrians? Just wait!

[BruceWright]

quote:Originally posted by willysnout

Instead, you testified about the disabled while promoting a law authorizing general use of a potentially dangerous vehicle on public sidewalks.

Actually, no. My testimony is a matter of public record, please do not mischaracterize it if you were not there.

The gist was, "I have a Segway, others have said that they are safe, as I believe, but if you must ban them, please don't ban it for the use of the disabled." Which, as of that date, the D of D didn't know used Segways.


I also provided the Los Angeles Department of Disability with a stack of testimonials from members of the Disabled community across the country who use Segways to regain lost mobility.

I argued specifically against a blanket ban that would affect the disabled community. I said that a ban would affect me little, as I could still reduce pollution (the reason I got a Segway) by driving a hybrid car. But a full blanket ban on all Segways would affect the mobility-impaired. I urged them, if they were deciding to ban Segways, not to ban ALL use of Segways without studying how they help the disabled community.


There is no way that anyone in that room misunderstood my meaning or my intent. I was there on behalf of the disabled Segway community, first and foremost. Other people argued for the safety issues, or the transportation issues. My entire comment time addressed the use of Segways for restorative purposes. It argued that in the event of a ban, an exception should be made for the disabled.


I said I would not respond to your posts further, Willysnout, but I felt I did have to set the record straight, since you mischaracterized my public statements to the Los Angeles Department of Disability. If you doubt any word of this, I urge you to research this, because my statements are a matter of public record.





-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[willysnout]

Bruce, do you work for Segway or have any other ties to them such as a contract with them or an investment in the company?

Early on in this thread, I wrote that I think Segways should be allowed for the disabled although I still question their broad utility for disabled folks. My issue is with general public use, which you appear to support.

You also dismiss as "lies" the evidence that Segways are mechanically designed for 18 mph and that the company itself has stated their speed advantage in terms that, when the calculations are done, envisioned them going at that speed.

I'd be willing to bet that making them into 18 mph electric unicycles will involve little more than distributing another key for "Segway 2.0" or whatever they choose to call it.

Segways should be seen in the same light as snowmobiles, all-terrain vehicles and jet skis, i.e., occasionally useful but mostly toys prone to misuse. At least they don't allow ATVs or snowmobiles on the sidewalks, and it's heartening to see more and more places banning jet skis on small lakes. It won't take too long before Segways are seen in the same light.

[Zorba9]

Hey Folks - we've got a "ringer" here in willysnout! Don't let him get your goat, thats all he wants- this is no Segway owner and he doesn't have a clue -----
bye,bye Troll!

Zorba9.....

[BAEHRTIME]

Bruce, you write "Do you know that one hour riding a Segway is about the same amount of exercize as an hour of walking?" That's a good point if it is true. Is this just your estimate, or do you know this to be true? Does anybody know if this might be true? Frankly, it seems to me that a brisk "glide" could not burn the same calories as a brisk walk! Thanks and Best Regards, Micky

[toybuilder]

quote:Originally posted by willysnout

I'm not going to make my final decision on this one until I use it myself, but from what I've read in a variety of places I am extremely skeptical of general usage of Segways on public sidewalks.
Good. I hope you get to try more than a 2-minutes-in-an-open-room demo to truly understanding how it works, how it would be used in the real world, et cetra.

There is no doubt there will be lots of social and legal changes that will occur if this device becomes widely accepted. As it is, however, I think it has a long way to go before being the nuisances to a blind person's daily routines. (Moreover, if it does become that popular, I think cities' infrastructures will will adapt to reflect this.)

I noticed you making a comment at the MS Forum that you won't always walk in a straight line, and you ask what would happen if you were to suddenly change directions right in front of a Segway. Well, it would be similar to having a walker or jogger also trying to pass you -- depending on how quickly you stumble left or right, the person would move out of your way. If I'm going to overtake someone, I leave plenty of room for the speed I am going. If there isn't room, I slow down.

The Segway works differently, and is operated differently, from bicycles, skateboards, and scooters. It's new, so it's use is counter-intuitive -- it's easily misunderstood. So I do hope that you try it for some time, especially in the real world, to understand its abilities and limitations.

If you are anywhere near Pasadena, I'll be glad to meet you and let you try mine.


http://www.pasadenasegway.com/
A bicycle in 1897 cost $25 ($2,200 today adjusted for inflation).
A Ford Model-T cost $850 in 1908 ($75,000 today adjusted for inflation).

[terryp]

W.S. -

Regardless of what the design parameters may have been, Segways cannot go faster than 12.5 MPH, even with a reprogrammed key, and there is no Segway 2.0. So why keep bringing that up?

Take the time to try a Segway yourself with an open mind. If you still have concerns after that, you'll find us a lot more receptive.

Practicing Safe Segs in Seattle

[toybuilder]

BTW, in answers to "disabled folks already have wheelchairs and scooters, so why get a Segway?" question, I'd like to quote a letter from a man that I met last month. He gave ma his permission to post it, but I'm leaving his name out for now.

quote:
To Whom it May Concern:

My girlfriend has a medical condition that affects her
balance requiring her to hold on to someone or
something in order not to fall down, and she uses a
wheelchair to gain some fraction of the mobility that
the rest of us take for granted.

One of the things that I have noticed about this is
the fact that it is not at what we consider to be eye
level...try looking over the counter in any store from
that point of view and you will realize just how much
one misses when seated.

Another factor is trying to get around over the
sidewalks (much less the streets) under one's own
power in a wheelchair...small rocks, garden bark,
sand, and cracks in the pavement (anything more than a
fraction of an inch becomes an impassable barrier)
cause problems in mobility.

Again, this is all stuff that we dont notice, or we
just take it for granted.

The Segway Human Transporter dissolves these problems
completely. Using the Segway she can balance, stand,
move about and see the world at eye level. It allows
her to function and interact with the world in a
manner that is as close to "normal" as she has ever
been able to do. All without posing a hazard to
herself or the community. It is without a doubt the
safest and most controlled device that is available
anywhere.

I find legislation in any form generally repulsive,
and it seems that acceptance of such advanced
technology needs no legislation, however I would
support any move toward acceptance of this device,
whatever it takes.

This device solves so many of the problems that face
the mobility handicapped that it should be allowed the
same access to the world as are seeing eye dogs and
motorized wheelchairs, which is to say, full access
without exception.

Thanks for taking my words under consideration.

Sincerely,

(signed)



http://www.pasadenasegway.com/
A bicycle in 1897 cost $25 ($2,200 today adjusted for inflation).
A Ford Model-T cost $850 in 1908 ($75,000 today adjusted for inflation).

[toybuilder]

Oh, and finally, to answer the question you raised at the other forum about "Why doesn't Dean Kamen bring the price of the wheelchair instead of gouging people at $30,000?" -- that's a question you need to direct to Johnson & Johnson which own the rights to and are producing the iBot 3000. Part of the high cost is the simple matter of economics of medical devices. Why do regular motorized wheelchairs cost $5,000 to $7,000? (I'm talking about comparably comfortable wheelchair, not the "econobox" wheelchair, so to speak.)

There's a lot of technology in making the balancing system work and making sure they always work. That's why it is so expensive.

One side-effect of a wider Segway usage, BTW, would be the increase in ADA-compliant curb and building accesses and lowering of the component cost for technology shared by both systems.



http://www.pasadenasegway.com/
A bicycle in 1897 cost $25 ($2,200 today adjusted for inflation).
A Ford Model-T cost $850 in 1908 ($75,000 today adjusted for inflation).

[willysnout]

quote:Originally posted by Zorba9

Hey Folks - we've got a "ringer" here in willysnout! Don't let him get your goat, thats all he wants- this is no Segway owner and he doesn't have a clue
Typical zealot. Defines anyone who disagrees with him as a "troll." By the way, it's not necessary to use a Segway to oppose them. I'm just a curious sort, so I will give it a try.

[willysnout]

quote:Originally posted by toybuilder
As it is, however, I think it has a long way to go before being the nuisances to a blind person's daily routines. (Moreover, if it does become that popular, I think cities' infrastructures will will adapt to reflect this.)
At whose expense will the infrastructures change? I find it the height of arrogance for a high-tech company to simply assume that it can toss this product out there and expect the rest of society to pay for the cost of adaptations.

As for blind people, if the Segway does become a nuisance -- then what? Here's my prediction: The Segway manufacturer, and the user base, will ignore the issue and/or force the taxpayers at large to shoulder any burdens.

quote:I noticed you making a comment at the MS Forum that you won't always walk in a straight line, and you ask what would happen if you were to suddenly change directions right in front of a Segway. Well, it would be similar to having a walker or jogger also trying to pass you -- depending on how quickly you stumble left or right, the person would move out of your way.
Yeah, and the other pedestrian is at my level and going at pretty much the same speed as me. He is not on a machine that can do 12.5 mph, towering over me. It's completely dishonest to liken someone driving a Segway to an ordinary pedestrian on foot.

quote:If I'm going to overtake someone, I leave plenty of room for the speed I am going. If there isn't room, I slow down.
Why of course. You're an early adopter, and you're making a statement on a public forum. The practical reality is that, if these things get popular, there will be all kinds of people who won't be considerate. And at the speeds these things are capable of, a lot of damage can and will be done.

All it's going to take are a few deaths and/or serious injuries, and the Segway is going to be history when it comes to sidewalk use. Anyone who seriously believes otherwise is dreaming. The unfortunate thing is that some number of people will have to be killed by your toy in order for the obvious danger to be recognized.

quote:The Segway works differently, and is operated differently, from bicycles, skateboards, and scooters.
Current models go 12.5 mph and there seems to be evidence that they are mechanically capable of 18 mph. That's typical bicycle speed, and they are much heavier than a bicycle. Essentially, a Segway is an electric unicycle held upright by a gyroscope.

The laws of physics haven't changed. You get one of these suckers going 8 or 10 or 18 mph and have it knock into someone and you'll see some serious damage. Or are we arguing that Segway users, like marijuana smokers, are only interested in peace and love and the good vibes of Silicon Valley and will never do anything bad?

I'm not four-square against them. I can see them (possibly) for disabled folks or semi-disabled folks and others with a specific practical need. I can imagine them on private property. I can also imagine them on the street.

Just not on the sidewalks. I live in Boston, and the drivers are bad enough on the streets and the cops don't bother to enforce the traffic laws. The only safe place outdoors is on the sidewalks, and now the techno-yuppies want to invade that, too. What's the matter, kids, bored with the video games are you?

[BruceWright]

quote:Originally posted by BAEHRTIME

Frankly, it seems to me that a brisk "glide" could not burn the same calories as a brisk walk! Thanks and Best Regards, Micky



I wouldn't say a brisk walk. Anything elevating the heart rate wouldn't count, as the Segway really doesn't do that. I just mean a regular walk. I did say almost as much as a walk, which I would agree with (at least my thigh muscles did after my first couple long distance rides!)



-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[toybuilder]

I think we will never agree on most of the points. I do think you are pointing out legitimate issues and I respect your desired to speak strongly to those issues. I just feel that you also are making a lot of assumptions because you don't have any experience with the device.

You are right that you don't need to have tried it to have an opinion or to be against it. As my brother puts it: "I never smoked pot, but I know it's wrong." But there's a wealth of information that show the deliterious effects of marijuana. I think it's too early to say the same about the Segway.

quote:What's the matter, kids, bored with the video games are you?
I don't think we deserve that tone. I didn't get the Segway for excitement. I got it because I got tired of dragging my car for in-town trips.

http://www.pasadenasegway.com/
A bicycle in 1897 cost $25 ($2,200 today adjusted for inflation).
A Ford Model-T cost $850 in 1908 ($75,000 today adjusted for inflation).

[jillmac]

Hi Willysnout - what a surprise to log on tonight and find you here!

Folks, Willysnout is a very valuable member of the MS board - not a troll by any means, but I don't think any amount of discussion will bring a change of mind. WS has been a longstanding critic of the Segway, but has recently said that renting one on a visit to Paris is on the cards.

Willysnout I hope the rental is successful and that you are given the right amount of training before hand and that you find the Seg of use to you. However, even if you love the darn thing - I still don't think your mind will be changed about the use of Segway by the general public.

You are convinced there will be idiots who cause accidents, harming pedestrians and I can't altogether disagree with you.

I think this forum is made up of very responsible riders who go out of their way to give demos to people and explain the use of Segway thoroughly. Forum members ARE responsible riders and our wish is that everyone be responsible and use the Segway sensibly for the reason it was intended.

I want to disagree with you WS because I want to remain on the sidewalks, using my Segway responsibly. The forum members all work hard to spread the word regarding responsible use, and the dangers of riding without training, but it does worry me considerably about the number of posts about rental companies not following safety training etc. etc.

I do fear that a few irresponsible users will do all the work for the naysayers and critics. Just one bit of bad publicity will be held up as the standard for Segway use - proof that it is an unsafe machine - the critics will receive their validation and I may well end up going back to sitting home while others are out walking!

Hmmmmm - sound a bit negative tonight folks don't I? I think I need to go out and ride my Segway to cheer myself up - trouble is it's 11 pm and dark out.

Jill




Nothing is inexplicable, merely unexplained..... Dr. Who

[pam]

Anybody born can be a troll, Jill. And I'm sure there are people who love trolls in RL - mom's, and wives, and kids - and members of other boards. Any person who comes onto a board that is for a specific purpose and proceeds to revile the board members and state irrelevant facts and tries to make those people angry and defensive is a troll. They may be a valued member on their own home boards, but on the others, they're a troll, plain and simple. If his mind is "not open" to dialogue, and if he simply wants to insult members and the board itself, then we're just feeding his ego. And he's a troll.
Pam

[willysnout]

quote:Originally posted by pam

Any person who comes onto a board that is for a specific purpose and proceeds to revile the board members and state irrelevant facts and tries to make those people angry and defensive is a troll. They may be a valued member on their own home boards, but on the others, they're a troll, plain and simple. If his mind is "not open" to dialogue, and if he simply wants to insult members and the board itself, then we're just feeding his ego. And he's a troll.

And a zealot is someone who defines any disagreement as "trolling." All I can say is this: "Trolls" like me are the ones who will toss the Segway off of the sidewalks of America. Just you wait and see.

jillmac, thanks for your words. You're probably right about me being permanently opposed to general sidewalk use of Segways. But -- when I say I haven't completely made up my mind and that I won't do so until I have tried one for myself -- I mean that. Like anyone else (other than the zealots, that is), I might be "convinced" sooner by reports of deaths or serious injuries.

[willysnout]

A couple other things. jillmac, I found this board while I was looking for some specifics on where in Paris to rent a Segway. It appears that, like so many other things involved with the high-tech world, the stories about renting Segways in Paris were public relations hype planted in the media by paid p.r. flacks.

I haven't found them to actually be available to the public there yet. I did find an article on Slate magazine's site about Segways in Paris. Turned out that the author's trip was paid for by the French tourist office, etc., and that Segway gave them to Segways to use. Now that was an objective story!! :)

As for the stories of irresponsible renters, they don't surprise me in the least. The Segway rental companies have very little, if any, interest in promoting responsible use. Let's face it, their best customers are going to be kids who rent them to zip through the parks like crazy. From my point of view, if I think that they're going to cause all kinds of problems anyway, maybe it's best to have the problems surface right away through rentals so this sidewalk Segway thing can be nipped in the bud.

[wayne]

wee-willysnout,
If you are for real why do you not have an e-mail address listed? Troll sure seems to fit.

[pam]

I stand by my point. Coming into someone's "home" and insulting them, their belief systems or their "furniture" makes a person a very poor mannered troll. Calling someone who has exhibited that behavior a zealot is not logical, but you may call me that if it makes you feel better. It doesn't bother me. I HAVE experience on a Segway, and I know the truth of the unit, based on MY experience.
Pam

[willysnout]

quote:Originally posted by wayne

If you are for real why do you not have an e-mail address listed? Troll sure seems to fit.
I don't see why not having an e-mail address listed makes me a "troll." But to test your implicit assumption, I've now included an e-mail address in my profile. I suppose that means I am off your troll list? Somehow I doubt it!

[willysnout]

quote:Originally posted by pam

I stand by my point. Coming into someone's "home" and insulting them, their belief systems or their "furniture" makes a person a very poor mannered troll. Calling someone who has exhibited that behavior a zealot is not logical, but you may call me that if it makes you feel better. It doesn't bother me. I HAVE experience on a Segway, and I know the truth of the unit, based on MY experience.
So Pam, are the high-tech people censors as well? Seems like your crowd loves free speech as long as everyone agrees with you?!

[BruceWright]

Unhook your questions and opinions from your unveiled hostility and personal attacks and cheap shots and you might get your questions answered and your opinions considered.

Just a suggestion.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[willysnout]

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright

Unhook your questions and opinions from your unveiled hostility and personal attacks and cheap shots and you might get your questions answered and your opinions considered.
Funny you should say these things, Bruce. On my second posting to this board, you characterized my views as distortions and lies, and wrote some fiction about how you had repeatedly given me your point of view when in fact I hadn't even posted here prior to yesterday. I think this all is by way of saying, Doctor, heal thyself.

By the way, Bruce, you never answered my question. Do you work for Segway, have a contract with them, or have an investment in the company? Any close friends or relatives with a financial interest? Just what axe are you grinding here?

[Brooster]

Willysnout ... just for what it's worth ... guests on our board who come here for the purpose of stirring up trouble typically don't stay with us. Just something to consider.

Brooster

[BruceWright]

To facilitate taking down the heat, and because you asked relatively nicely this time...

;)


Not grinding anything. I don't work with or for Segway. I have no financial interest in the Segway company, nor do I benefit in any financial way from Segway. I have no friends or relatives with a financial interest in the Segway company. I do not rent my Segway or make any money from my Segway. I do not make, sell, distribute or in any way facilitate the manufacture, sale or distribution of Segways or any Segway-related items.

The only possible connection that you could find is that I am a union artist currently working (for the next two months) at a small division of a Fortune 500 Corporation. This corporation has another division with in a different industry which has a sponsorship relationship with Segway. I conduct no business with that entire division of this company.

I own a Segway, which is a legal item to own and use in the State of California. I use it safely in adherance to all the applicable traffic laws. I operate it with an intense focus on safety and courtesy, and dedicate quite a bit of my time on Segwaychat to the promotion of working rules and guidelines to emphasize the safest usage of Segways. I also have made myself available to members of my city government in support of setting strict safety standards for the operation of Segways in Los Angeles.

My entire financial benefit from the continued legal operation of a Segway is that I would like to continue to use my $5000 Segway legally.

Now can I ask you a couple of questions?


Why do you ask me this question? Were you trying to "catch me" in some sort of scandal? Discount what I was saying?


Take your time, here. Read around. Ask questions one at a time, without hurling 10 accusations per post. Understand that we are people, and you don't come over here to upset the applecart. We're not going to listen to you if you do that.

Be patient, we aren't leaving. Start a topic, ask one question. Ask it nicely and leave out the accusation.

Instead of "Do you know there are 1.2 million blind people? Their safety is more important than techno-geeks on yuppie-mobiles."

Ask it like this:

"I'm concerned about the safety of blind pedestrians. Really concerned. What do you say to the arguement that there are 1.2 million of them, and that their safety cannot be guaranteed?"

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[willysnout]

Bruce, thanks for your answer to the financial interest question. I asked because your tone had caused me to wonder whether you were working for them in some capacity. I mean, the things are just gadgets. I have a hard time believing that people could be so loyal to a gadget.

By the way, there are 1.7 million blind people not 1.2 million. It's a big difference. And yes, I'm very concerned about their safety. I don't think the Segway users could care less. Any protestations to the contrary strike me as mere lip service.

[BruceWright]

If it's mere lip-service, then no posts to the contrary will convince you. Everything anyone posts can be called merely lip-service.

But you are the one hurling the accusation that I don't care about blind people, and so it is up to you to prove that accusation.

First you condemned us as not caring about the Disabled community. But then when I show that I went to bat for the disabled community's exclusive use of Segways in the event that a ban was to take place in Los Angeles. I also posted on the MS forum that I would make my Segway avaliable for anyone in the Los Angeles area with mobility issues to try for themselves. I'm sure that was merely lip-service to you too. Friday I had a man with a prosthetic leg try my Segway. No financial interest in that either. I don't make a dime off of Segways. It's just community outreach.

That wasn't lip-service, it was action.

So now you condemn us as not caring about the Blind segment of the disabled community, and call anything we do in that arena lip-service too.


But the main topic of my post was to try and appeal to your better angels, and get you to engage in the discussion rather than dismiss us as techno-geeks on yuppie-mobiles.

Did it work? We'll see.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[BruceWright]

quote:Originally posted by willysnout

I mean, the things are just gadgets. I have a hard time believing that people could be so loyal to a gadget.



By all means please visit www.ipodlounge.com and start posting about how the ipod sucks, and they are all thieves stealing music.

Then go to http://www.minicooperonline.com and go make fun of the silly little car with the flag on the roof.

Then go to http://www.tivocommunity.com and start posting about how the users of TiVo are "Stealing television" because they skip through commercials.

I think you'll find that the internet is ALL ABOUT folks who are loyal to their gadgets! :-)




-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream



P.S.: Here's a site for fans of ROBOT DOGS!

http://www.aiboworld.tv/

[terryp]

I just received a nice reply from Rita Lussier - the woman who wrote the article that started this thread. She says that she didn't expect anyone to take her seriously. She did research the HT. She didn't try one herself, but watched others gliding, and she knows about Dean Kamen and his other inventions.

I told her that we're trying to promote a positive image, and that articles that belittle us and make us look lazy, even if written tongue-in-cheek, don't help.

Practicing Safe Segs in Seattle