New HT battery treatment

[2totango]

THIS IS NOT AN APRIL FOOLS DAY POSTING.

I finally got my HT yesterday--Oh joy!!! But then---what is this I see? This isn't what I've spent the past weeks reading excitedly about from all the other new Gliders. Starting out is really going to be a FIVE DAY AFFAIR.

The following instructions came on a separate flyer with the HT. They sure put the kibosh on quick starts out of the box because the batteries arrive with some juice in them.

I don't know about you, but with replacement batteries costing over $600 a pair, I can't afford not to follow the battery instructions to a tee. However it starts you out with a good 5 days of practice.

"Updated Charging Instructions"

1. As soon as possible and before first use, charge the batteries for at least 12 hours.

2. Limit the duration of the first five uses so that you do not discharge the batteries below three bars on the display.

3. After each of your first five uses, charge the batteries for at least eight hours.

Even if you do not intend to immediately use your new Segway HT, you should still charge the batteries for at least 12 hours as soon as possible. Batteries should be charged for at least 12 hours once every month. Remember to charge your Segway HT whenever it is not in use. In order to maintain the best performance from your Segway HT batteries, charge your batteries for at least twelve hours once in every ten charge cycles.
[:O][:O][:O][:O][:O][:O]

[2totango]

P.S. What is considered a charge cycle? When does one begin and end if you keep your HT plugged in at all times not in use.

[GarySailor]

I went through the 5 day 1/2 battery thing. Actually, didn't mind it because I used the 5 days practicing close by anyway. I did plug it in a time or two, for a little more playing while staying above the 1/2 bat. level... The 6th day, I went for it, found the biggest hill I could find. No problem...

[SegwayBill]

A good rule of thumb is to always plug in your Segway when not in use. I always carry a cord in my bag. When you plug it in, do it in the power assist mode the indicator will blink red and will shut down. This will let you know you have a good connection and you don't need to bend over and check the led.

Bill

[emanresu]

You've gotta ask yourself who came up with those ridiculous instructions- it had to be an ex government official. I pulled mine out of the box, ran it til it was half empty, charged it every couple of days. They are nuts if they think people will follow instructions like that. Not very "intuitive"...

[2totango]

emanresu--

As I said, if $600 is no big deal to you then obviously you can ignore the "government" instructions.

[drucilla]

Those were the same instructions that came with my segway, 2totango..:)




What can I do, as just one person, to make the world a better place?..I can segway...

[GlideMaster]

I did not have those instructions with my glider. But I basically only used thirty percent for the first week and it always charges for at least twelve hours each day. Follow the charging instructions or pay later.

<center>The GlideMaster</center>
<center>http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete/1267/gif/segway.gif</center>
<center>If You’re Not Graceful In Your Glide, You Must Just Be Out For A Ride. </center>
<center>Looking To Provide A Glide To And For The Rest Of The World</center>
<center>Glide On</center>

[motleyorc]

Does everybody out there leave their Seg plugged in when you're not using it? I wondered if this is an OK thing to do versus charging it up to full and then unplugging it until you are ready to ride (sorry, I meant glide).


http://www.segwayceleb.com
motleyorc@hotmail.com

[pt]

i've always left it plugged in at all times when not using, that's what we were told in training. it is also on page 15 in the reference manual.

cheers,
pt

http://www.bookofseg.com

[RedKey]

quote:Originally posted by motleyorc

Does everybody out there leave their Seg plugged in when you're not using it? I wondered if this is an OK thing to do versus charging it up to full and then unplugging it until you are ready to ride (sorry, I meant glide).


Segway's recommendation is to plug it in whenever possible and leave it plugged in when not in use.
The charger is smart enough to not overcharge the batteries, it keeps them topped off with a trickle-charge, which uses very little electricity and doesn't damage the batteries.
Also bear in mind that the Segway is using energy even when it's OFF. It's constantly looking for a key. It doesn't deplete the batteries much when turned OFF, but when you're trying to get every ounce of mileage for each ride, you want the batteries charged 100% not 99%.

Red

[emanresu]

And nobody really knows, which I realize must be frustrating for all you engineer types. What a bunch of bunk, the battery nonsense looks like it was an adenendum to form X-ez4b of your taxes. Ignore it, and just use the thing. No memory in the batteries? Well, yes, but maybe....

[motleyorc]

That's what I figured. If anybody out there is going to develop smart battery technology, it's going to be Dean Kamen. Man, I hope those elusive Li-Ion batteries are everything we are all hoping for. Can you imagine double the mileage?


http://www.segwayceleb.com
motleyorc@hotmail.com

[terryp]

I'm with you, emanresu. (Does that rhyme?) If the instructions as written are what was intended, I'll eat the batteries (despite the warning in the manual to the contrary)!

[mzokc]

Ken! Glad you got your Segway! Enjoy that battery cycle, it's part of the fun! I agree with you, whatever makes them last longer is what I wanted to do. Enjoy the glide!

Mark

[terryp]

Where does it say they'll last longer? I missed that.

[JaneJetson]

Well, I hate to tell you skeptics this, but at the Chicago training last month, some of us got to talk to one of the engineers who designed the HT and who seemed very knowledgable about the batteries.

The instructions are written that way on purpose. You are of course welcome to not follow them, but according to the engineer, you will get better long-term life from the batteries if you follow them.

From what he said, the batteries are made up of arrays of about 60 cells. The first, fast charging cycle pumps a lot of energy into the batteries, but may not top up all of the cells equally. The second, slow charging part of the cycle makes sure that each of the cells is topped up. The third, trickle charge part of the cycle keeps all the cells topped off.

According to him, if you don't follow the instructions to get the batteries fully charged every ten or so cycles, some of the cells may not get their full charge, and may end up over time with reduced ability to hold a charge, thus reducing the effective performance of the battery.

He also confirmed that best practice is to keep the HT plugged in whenever you are not using it. This makes sure that all of the cells in the battery get topped up.

Mind you, this is just my imperfect recollection of a conversation from about two weeks ago, and I may have gotten some of the details wrong. (I am surely *not* a battery guru.) However, it seems to me that it's be smart to listen to the people who actually designed the beast...

FWIW,
JaneJetson

[Peter iNova]

Batteries are like women. No they're not. The analogy doesn't work at all. I'll try again: Batteries are like teenagers... No, that one doesn't work, either.

Batteries are like arrangements of chemicals that change states while passing electrons from one molecule to another down a wire. That's better. In doing so, the molecules at each end twist and gink and even split apart, only to be untwisted, unginked and re-united when charged back up. Therein lies the hassle. What if the two parts don't exactly recombine when a neighboring part A sticks back together with the original part A's other half? A certain loss of efficient reconstruction occurs with each up and down cycle. But by training these molecules through their back and forth cycles gently (the theory goes), you can minimize the sort of gross twists, ginks and splits that might occur with strenuous changes of state. Heat happens with every twist or break at the molecule level. Pushed, the whole battery gets noticeably warm, indicating bazillions of popped molecules at work.

The actual technical amount of improvement that this kinder, gentler first set of cycles might produce is what Segway is NOT saying. Is it 3% in the most extreme cases, or does it lead to a 20% reduction in performance over all if you don't follow the ten commandments? They're not saying, and I think it would be very helpful if they did.

So what if I ride my HT out of the box for half a charge to check it out and show off? In theory, I'm altering the state of maybe 1/3 of the available molecules that are ready to pop their electrons around the circuit in doing so. But does that make statistically damaging structural changes that a 1/10th discharge would recover from much more efficiently? My experience with NiMH batteries in other devices insists on no such arcane "conditioning," so why do I need to follow these very counter-intuitive procedures with these particular NiMH cells? It's not like their chemistry is whacked, or is it?

Couldn't the factory have conditioned the batteries before sending them to me? They could do it on an automated rig. Must I do it by following a series of instructions by rote? Where's the clever cartoon of Jhonny Seg-Volt showing us kids how he masterfully splits the molecule to our benefit and can only tie them back together if we follow the golden path to enrightenment?

Or is there the hidden agenda of Segway wanting the new rider to take it easy for the first few hours of gliding by adhering to a power administration practice designed to rein in the tendency to take the machine to the max before one is ready? Or were those instructions written by a committee?

My machine arrived fully charged. At least the indicator was full to the top. I rode it around the office for a while, and kept it plugged in whenever it wasn't being used, but that first day saw several demos and only that night did it get the full 12 hour treatment. We sleep/It charges. It's a good relationship. And it has shown no tendency to be unusually inefficient. But without actual engineering data on this thing--and one might expect such data from such a hugely engineering-based company--any guess I make is unsupported.

Third parties could buy a Segway, take the batteries off, run one through hell while running the other through the rote cycles and report their findings. I'd bet the post office and other commercial users have data beyond the rote list because they would have a very performance-vested interest in understanding exactly what is going on inside these machines at every level, especially its gas tank.

My reaction to the Segway "manual" is that it is "manual lite" and is geared to the retired librarian, not the technically interested early adopter. The manual, instruction books, training binder and video are like the presentation of graphics and type that you would get with a perscription rather than the manual you would get with a car. (Including Edison's first telephone message [Was it, "Alexander, come in here, I need you?*])

That leads me to the emotional conclusion that one can take the arcane battery conditioning instructions with a HUGE grain of salt. Meaning a grain about 2.879mm in diameter, pure within .00157% and essentially transparent without chromatic tint. (for the true engineer)

* Training Manual binder &gt; Principles &gt; Magical &gt; Sentence 2.

-iNova

http://www.glidewalk.com

[Detrbear]

posted on March 23 by emanresu (which of course, is 'username' spelled backwards) quote:I have noticed a definite loss of power from my unit on the order of 15%... At first I hoped that it was because I was getting used to it, and it was perception, but now as I compare exact rides to earlier rides, it seems definite. The bar comes back into me a lot more quickly, and I have checked the tire pressure. Comments, ideas?
Now you're telling us you didn't follow the recommended battery charging instructions? I wonder if the two could possibly be related.

Bill

[terryp]

What makes me suspicious of the revised charging instructions is that they say not to let the batteries get BELOW a certain point before recharging the first five times. Technically, then, you could discharge to some point before the top bar even flashes, then recharge for another 8 hours. Obviously, that isn't going to condition them at all. There might well be a maximum discharge limit to observe those first few times - like don't completely discharge them - but there has to be a minimum discharge point as well for any conditioning to occur.

[pt]

er, he also said he used the ht after drinking...i'm not sure what to believe.

cheers,
pt

quote:Originally posted by Detrbear

posted on March 23 by emanresu (which of course, is 'username' spelled backwards) quote:I have noticed a definite loss of power from my unit on the order of 15%... At first I hoped that it was because I was getting used to it, and it was perception, but now as I compare exact rides to earlier rides, it seems definite. The bar comes back into me a lot more quickly, and I have checked the tire pressure. Comments, ideas?
Now you're telling us you didn't follow the recommended battery charging instructions? I wonder if the two could possibly be related.

Bill



http://www.bookofseg.com

[emanresu]

I have been "not warned" about any reference to (same as Gore's first name) and "chohol" being used in the same sentence with the word Segway. I assume the prohibition, if you will, also applies to you PT. No "whining", either.

[pt]

huh?

cheers,
pt

http://www.bookofseg.com

[2totango]

WOW!!! I sure didn't think this post would start WWIII and certainly had no idea there were so many battery experts in the country, let alone among 700 members of a chat room.

How did you negativists ever buy into getting an HT in the first place? You obviously can't trust the maker to give you honest information.

Just think of the possible areas of misinformation SegwayLLC can be foisting off on us---since they don't know their machines as well as we thought. How long did they say we have to return them without penalty?[^][?]:D[V][8D][?]

[ftropea]

When some people buy really expensive shoes, they use shoe trees (shoe shapes) to keep them conditioned. Some people don't and just slip 'em on and toss them off.. but others feel they want to keep their expensive shoes in the best condition possible.

The Segway HT is definitely the most expensive "pair of shoes" I've ever bought. I prefer to properly condition mine.. but that's just me.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea
[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

[motleyorc]

Frank, I tried using the shoe horns on my Segway, but they just fall off when I glide. What's your secret? ;)

http://www.segwayceleb.com
motleyorc@hotmail.com

[2totango]

[:I][:I][:I]

Forgive that last comment of mine. This is a forum for people to share, agree, disagree, make jokes and just generally have a good time supporting a shared enthusiasm. Unfortunately I was pissed, at the time finding out that I was going to miss the FIRST Regionals with my new found friends. The first time we were getting together. And why???????/ Because the battery instructions won't let me be available for such joyful happenings until Sunday, the day after the Regionals are over.

After more sobering thoughts I realize I still have a car and don't absolutely need to Segway there.

[emanresu]

Well, that's the point. This "intuitive" vehicle that has been so "well-engineered" and blah-biddy-blah, and they have to come out with some sort of lame charging instructions written by an accountant. Come ON! I know BS, and if it's put in a pretty bag with a bow, it sill smells the same. Some of you may be dumb....

[mzokc]

Perhaps the individual cells have a better chance of long life with those first 5 partial charges. If one cell goes dead early, that would affect the whole pack.

Marki

[toybuilder]

The charge/drain/charge cycle is, roughly speaking, a stress leveling technique.

If you ever watch a car tire being mounted on the rim, you'll see that they inflate, deflate, reinflate, deflate, and then final inflate the tire.

Instructions for tightening bolts sometimes talk about tightening, and then backing off, and the retightening the bolt again.

Of course, you are free to do as you wish and ignore the manufacturer's recommendations. My father used to never take his car in for oil changes and wondered why his cars would always start to die after 30,000 to 50,000 miles.

http://www.pasadenasegway.com

Do not let yourself be forced into doing anything before you are ready.
— Wilbur Wright

[pt]

i must be one of the dumb ones, i followed the instructions (which i think are simple) and i have great battery life-- unlike what you reported for yours.

cheers,
pt

quote:Originally posted by emanresu

Well, that's the point. This "intuitive" vehicle that has been so "well-engineered" and blah-biddy-blah, and they have to come out with some sort of lame charging instructions written by an accountant. Come ON! I know BS, and if it's put in a pretty bag with a bow, it sill smells the same. Some of you may be dumb....


http://www.bookofseg.com

[dexter]

I don't have "magical" in my binder.

I have:

optimistic
approachable
graceful
energetic
smart
fun

What am I missing?

Dave C.
me: www.idexter.com
work: www.idealjacobs.com
play: www.nyline.org

[2totango]

Surprise!!! Seems the general experience so far is that SegwayLLC is not trying to con us---that the proper breaking in of the batteries does indeed appear to give the best long term results.