Charging procedure

[rrc1962]

Lets say I took a 5 mile ride to a store and were in the store for 30 minutes or so. Would it be bad to plug in for just 30 minutes and take on a little juice? Then say I stopped in another 6 or 8 miles and plug in for another hour or so.

Is that acceptable or should one deplete the batteries and recharge fully? I'm just thinking that on longer glides, it would be handy to plug in if we were stopped for a little while. Could conceivably log quite a few miles in a day that way. Ride, charge, ride, charge....Deplete, full charge would not be as easy out on the road.

Thanks...Ross

[bentbiker]

Plug in whenever you want. It won't hurt anything. The one exception might be if your batteries are really hot (hill climbing in Phoenix mid-summer, but I've never seen mine that way.

[Segwaiian]

I second what bentbiker posted. If you do the reconditioning/recalibrating thing as the manual advises, you should be OK.

There are possibly a couple of issues, one that Jason Abel from MTO Batteries suggested, and another that's been nagging me as I read battery threads.

(1) Jason recommending giving the batteries a little while to cool down before charging to maintain long-term battery life. I suppose the ambient temperature you're gliding in or how hard you glide could be factors. I think he said a half-hour or so is good.

(2) Sorry, I'm not at the comuter that my Getting Started and Reference manual files are stored, so my numbers are probably incorrect. But, let's say a set of batteries, over their lifetimes, can hold a good charge 500 times (I think that's close to what I've read somewhere.). Does each time we charge from, for example, six bars to eight bars, or one bar to four bars, etc., count as a charge cylce? If it does, does this mean that plugging in anytime we're near an outlet will result in the need for battery replacement much sooner than consistently doing a full charge from a low (one-tweo bars) state?

The second issue is very important to me. I glide six-seven days a week, 50-60 miles weekly, which usually runs my batteries down to one-two bars every two days. On days when I do more short side trips I sometimes need to plug in for at least a couple more bars to make sure I can get home.

Aloha,
Roger

[bentbiker]

Four 1/4 charges count as only 1 recharge cycle.

[MTOBATTERY]

Its basically impossible to count full cycles how you guys use them. The batteries seem to fail because of being kept at such a high voltage constantly. Generally speaking if you use the battery even as much as a quarter of it's charge and then put on the recharge it is still technically one cycle even if it wasn't a full one. No need to full cycle lithiums but it is healthy for NiMH batteries to do so when possible.

[rrc1962]

The batteries seem to fail because of being kept at such a high voltage constantly.

That has been my experience with other batteries, some being Lithium Ion. If I leave my camera batteries on the charger I notice that I they don't last long. In a very short period of time they will become very quick to charge but also very quick to discharge. If I charge them and put them in my bag until I need them, they seem to last quite a while.

If that is true of Segway batteries, wouldn't we be better off charging and unplugging when a full charge is reached or is the Segway charger "smarter" than other chargers?

[MTOBATTERY]

Ideally they would be stored at half charge off the Segway (Not typically practical since you want it charged when you go for it). The OEM charger is not any smarter than other Lithium chargers. All the intelligence is inside the battery pack on the circuit board.

[rrc1962]

Ideally they would be stored at half charge off the Segway (Not typically practical since you want it charged when you go for it). The OEM charger is not any smarter than other Lithium chargers. All the intelligence is inside the battery pack on the circuit board.

So I guess for everyday use a ride during the day, charge at night procedure would work out about right. For extended storage, we should remove the batteries at 50% charge and store in a cool place. How long would you leave it plugged in with no use before you would consider removing the batteries for longer term storage?

[greenlaser]

One of the more difficult problems I have had with this forum is that no one really specifies what they are driving. I think RRC is going to buy either an I2 or X2. These have the Li batteries.

I'm in central montana, so I outsourced for dealers, there are none here. They all said to keep the machine plugged in all the time when possible.

But then I'm not selling batteries. :) I would love to know more.

Many of the dealers run tour fleets. That tells me they know what they are talking about. Unfortunately they don't often tell you how old the machines are, and what battery chemistry and charging firmware they are using. It does vary. My manual says nothing about reconditioning/recalibrating the batteries.

I'm still new at this X2 I bought.

Do your homework, trust a dealer, and it all should work out. From your posts I think you are an I2 guy. The X2 is the only way to go on snow and ice, the bigger tires, soft rubber, and width make it look more formidible to a pedestrian. Fortunately I will not see winter for a couple of seasons again. When a wheel loses traction it spins very fast. When it gains traction again it has some momentum. I have only seen this while moving the x2 over an icy door jam. My experience is very limmited. Just over a month. We have 150 miles on it. The weather has been bad.

Gliding is so much fun!

Good luck,

Jim

MTO, what is your take on the new Li ion batteries (non nano)? You seem to contradict the tour guides (aka dealers). Do you know what charging algorithim is in place on the current crop of Segways?

I have learned a lot from your posts, thanks... OK thanks, you have already answered my questions while I was composing this.

[MTOBATTERY]

I personally wouldn't let it plugged in for more than a week but I am a battery nerd so I tend to stay on the cautious side. Obviously the more often you can keep the battery at 50% charge the longer overall life you will get out of it. Its really more of a question of how often are you willing to remove/reinstall the batteries.

[MTOBATTERY]

MTO, what is your take on the new Li ion batteries (non nano)? You seem to contradict the tour guides (aka dealers).

I'm not 100% sure which type of lithium you are referring to. There are numerouse types other than the nano with more appearing almost each week. Lithium is probably the fastest growing battery market out there right now. Each type has it's place but must be given the proper respect for it's chemistry/energy density. Proper design/safety of the battery packs is more critical now than it ever was.

[rrc1962]

One of the more difficult problems I have had with this forum is that no one really specifies what they are driving. I think RRC is going to buy either an I2 or X2. These have the Li batteries.



That's right. We are 99% sold on the i2. We'll be going to Annapolis for an extended demo tomorrow and will make our final decision.

[bentbiker]

One of the more difficult problems I have had with this forum is that no one really specifies what they are driving.
Are you looking under the profiles of the members? I checked the posters on this thread and all owners show their ride. I do think that all members should be required to fill in their profile with at least their location and ride.

[Segwaiian]

Its basically impossible to count full cycles how you guys use them. The batteries seem to fail because of being kept at such a high voltage constantly. Generally speaking if you use the battery even as much as a quarter of it's charge and then put on the recharge it is still technically one cycle even if it wasn't a full one. No need to full cycle lithiums but it is healthy for NiMH batteries to do so when possible.

Mahalo, Jason.

While dealers have gone with Inc.'s advice, with what they tell us on this issue, I think I'll go with The Battery Nerd on this, for my batteries. :D

Aloha,
Roger

[PeteInLongBeach]

I personally wouldn't let it plugged in for more than a week but I am a battery nerd so I tend to stay on the cautious side. Obviously the more often you can keep the battery at 50% charge the longer overall life you will get out of it. Its really more of a question of how often are you willing to remove/reinstall the batteries.

And this presents a logistical problem. I never know when I'm going to use the machine or how far I will want to go. If someone calls to go have dinner, it could be 15 miles tonight. Or, I might only use it for 2 miles to the store next week. This means I need it fully charged and assembled at any given time. I mean, the whole idea is to be able to hop on and go whenever and wherever, which would not include careful battery level monitoring, disassembly, storage, and reassembly.

Given the cost of battery replacement, the practical inability to maintain them off machine at 50% charge is not very encouraging...

[bentbiker]

And this presents a logistical problem. I never know when I'm going to use the machine or how far I will want to go. If someone calls to go have dinner, it could be 15 miles tonight. Or, I might only use it for 2 miles to the store next week. This means I need it fully charged and assembled at any given time. I mean, the whole idea is to be able to hop on and go whenever and wherever, which would not include careful battery level monitoring, disassembly, storage, and reassembly.

Given the cost of battery replacement, the practical inability to maintain them off machine at 50% charge is not very encouraging...
I think your situation is typical of most of us, and well stated. I was wondering why INC would have recommended such a different way of handling batteries, but concluded as you that it just makes no sense in the real world to do otherwise. For those people who don't use units for months at a time, I think it is definitely worth trying. Can you at least use the procedure with the unit in the motorhome?

[PeteInLongBeach]

For those people who don't use units for months at a time, I think it is definitely worth trying. Can you at least use the procedure with the unit in the motorhome?

That's much easier to do, under those circumstances. When I was keeping the i180 on the motorhome I did start removing the batteries for storage, but I didn't know about the 50% charge recommendation at the time. I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to arrange storage at half charge, then put it on the inverter to charge it up on the next trip.

[nora k]

inc. just posted this recommendation to dealers at the beginning of this month. prior to that there was no official word as to how to store your machine unplugged, except that you shouldn't do it.

when you're home it's always easier to just leave it plugged in. not even easier, it's smarter, b/c it allows the ease of use the machine should provide. but if you're travelling for six weeks and the seg is staying home and you want to be green and unplug all your appliances, then moving forward you know Inc. suggests it's fully charged. there's been a lot around the boards about the pros and cons of this, but at the end of the day, inc. does say fully charged.


That's much easier to do, under those circumstances. When I was keeping the i180 on the motorhome I did start removing the batteries for storage, but I didn't know about the 50% charge recommendation at the time. I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to arrange storage at half charge, then put it on the inverter to charge it up on the next trip.

[rrc1962]

I'll bet most of the damage is from the fact that they are plugged in all the time and not so much that they are stored at 100%. I store my camera batteries fully charged and they last for years. Leaving them plugged in, I've had then go bad in as little and 2 months.

How about if casual users unplugged when a full charge is reached? How much juice would you lose in a few days of sitting unplugged but shut off? If you use glide everyday, even a short glide, it may be OK to stay pugged in because the batteries are getting exercised. Would that make sense? It would be nice to find a system that promoted long battery life and is also convenient.

I do agree with your comments about keeping the machine in ready to glide mode all the time, but on the other hand, if you have to replace batteries once a year, you could be spending more in batteries that what you save in fuel by using the Segway to commute.

[nora k]

I'll bet most of the damage is from the fact that they are plugged in all the time and not so much that they are stored at 100%. I store my camera batteries fully charged and they last for years. Leaving them plugged in, I've had then go bad in as little and 2 months.

How about if casual users unplugged when a full charge is reached? How much juice would you lose in a few days of sitting unplugged but shut off? If you use glide everyday, even a short glide, it may be OK to stay pugged in because the batteries are getting exercised. Would that make sense? It would be nice to find a system that promoted long battery life and is also convenient.

I do agree with your comments about keeping the machine in ready to glide mode all the time, but on the other hand, if you have to replace batteries once a year, you could be spending more in batteries that what you save in fuel by using the Segway to commute.

the thing is, i've had customers who have had Li-Ion machines since first release, keep them plugged in, and have no issues. I also have customers who have Li-Ions on Gen II machines that leave them plugged in also have no issue.

I don't think a blanket statement can be made that keeping the machine plugged in all the time will require yearly replacement of the batteries. it's just not the way it's supposed to be.

[MTOBATTERY]

I don't know that anyone said it would require a yearly replacement. I stated that it would prolong overall life if stored at half charge. This has been proven and can be found on many online resources/Battery Suppliers including Battery University (Quoted From http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm) "If possible, store the battery in a cool place at about a 40% state-of-charge. Some reserve charge is needed to keep the battery and its protection circuit operational during prolonged storage. Avoid keeping the battery at full charge and high temperature".

I always recommend 50% charge as it is easier for the end consumer to calculate. This principle can be represented by a water balloon. Fill a balloon half way with water and it isn't real likely to burst and is pretty stable. Fill it the whole way and it is sensitive and the rubber now becomes stressed/fragile. The batteries have more electron activity when fully charged than they do at partial charge. This movement increases material breakdown and therfore reduces overall life.

My statements were only recommendations based on the battery chemistry and my experience with them. As you will see in my profile I do not own a Segway so I cannot speak from experience with their equipment nor will I tell you their statements are wrong. I do feel as though they should have an extended storage feature to discharge and maintain the battery voltage at half charge. This would be a great improvement and would extend life easily and safely for those who have a need to store for extended periods of time.

[nora k]

hi jason,

i was just responding to rrc, who posted directly before i did. his last sentence talked about leaving a unit plugged in and potentially losing money if yearly battery replacement was required.

i wasn't trying to infringe on what you've brought to the board and i'm not trying to disagree with the data you've presented. i'm just posting what inc. believes is best battery practice for customers.

nora

I don't know that anyone said it would require a yearly replacement. I stated that it would prolong overall life if stored at half charge. This has been proven and can be found on many online resources/Battery Suppliers including Battery University (Quoted From http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm) "If possible, store the battery in a cool place at about a 40% state-of-charge. Some reserve charge is needed to keep the battery and its protection circuit operational during prolonged storage. Avoid keeping the battery at full charge and high temperature".

I always recommend 50% charge as it is easier for the end consumer to calculate. This principle can be represented by a water balloon. Fill a balloon half way with water and it isn't real likely to burst and is pretty stable. Fill it the whole way and it is sensitive and the rubber now becomes stressed/fragile. The batteries have more electron activity when fully charged than they do at partial charge. This movement increases material breakdown and therfore reduces overall life.

My statements were only recommendations based on the battery chemistry and my experience with them. As you will see in my profile I do not own a Segway so I cannot speak from experience with their equipment nor will I tell you their statements are wrong. I do feel as though they should have an extended storage feature to discharge and maintain the battery voltage at half charge. This would be a great improvement and would extend life easily and safely for those who have a need to store for extended periods of time.

[Segwaiian]

I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to arrange storage at half charge, then put it on the inverter to charge it up on the next trip.

inc. just posted this recommendation to dealers at the beginning of this month. prior to that there was no official word as to how to store your machine unplugged, except that you shouldn't do it.

when you're home it's always easier to just leave it plugged in. not even easier, it's smarter, b/c it allows the ease of use the machine should provide. but if you're travelling for six weeks and the seg is staying home and you want to be green and unplug all your appliances, then moving forward you know Inc. suggests it's fully charged. there's been a lot around the boards about the pros and cons of this, but at the end of the day, inc. does say fully charged.


How about if casual users unplugged when a full charge is reached? How much juice would you lose in a few days of sitting unplugged but shut off? If you use glide everyday, even a short glide, it may be OK to stay pugged in because the batteries are getting exercised. Would that make sense? It would be nice to find a system that promoted long battery life and is also convenient.


I don't know that anyone said it would require a yearly replacement. I stated that it would prolong overall life if stored at half charge. This has been proven and can be found on many online resources/Battery Suppliers including Battery University (Quoted From http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm) "If possible, store the battery in a cool place at about a 40% state-of-charge. Some reserve charge is needed to keep the battery and its protection circuit operational during prolonged storage. Avoid keeping the battery at full charge and high temperature".

I always recommend 50% charge as it is easier for the end consumer to calculate. This principle can be represented by a water balloon. Fill a balloon half way with water and it isn't real likely to burst and is pretty stable. Fill it the whole way and it is sensitive and the rubber now becomes stressed/fragile. The batteries have more electron activity when fully charged than they do at partial charge. This movement increases material breakdown and therfore reduces overall life.

My statements were only recommendations based on the battery chemistry and my experience with them. As you will see in my profile I do not own a Segway so I cannot speak from experience with their equipment nor will I tell you their statements are wrong. I do feel as though they should have an extended storage feature to discharge and maintain the battery voltage at half charge. This would be a great improvement and would extend life easily and safely for those who have a need to store for extended periods of time.


OK, full disclosure. I PMed Jason and asked for his opinion after post #3 of this thread.

My way of looking at this is that we, individually, take the information that's available and try to make as informed a decision as we can.

Jason's recommendations are more conservative than Inc.'s. It's a matter of what each of us feel more comfortable with. I posted that I'm going to follow The Battery Nerd. My reasoning is that it might not help to preserve the life of my batteries, but it won't hurt. For my gliding pattern, the conservative option is fine for me. For those who do longer spontaneous gliding, keeping it plugged in would be better.

I usually plug in for a full charge when I'm down to about 2 bars. If I have to do a short run somewhere after I come home at the end of the day, that still allows me 3-5 miles of comfortable range. I also carry a power cord most of the time, just in case I need a little more juice in my lithiums.

FYI, I fully charged my batteries (before I heard about storing at half-charge) and left my i2 powered off and unplugged when I went on a 10-day trip a few months ago. When I came back, I powered up and the meter still showed eight bars.

For those of you who can't glide year-round like I can in Honolulu, it should be relatively easy to monitor your charge level every couple of weeks or so during the winter to see how quickly or slowly your batteries lose charge and act accordingly to keep them around half-charge.

Aloha,
Roger

[shep]

How about some middle ground? Plug it in to a little timer set to stay on for whatever you think you need (2 hrs - 8 hrs). In the simplest case, it'll run once a day but if the timer is X10 (or otherwise) controllable, you can make it run how ever frequent or infrequent you want (i.e. daily, weekly, monthly, etc.). Both style of timers I use can easily be overridden for those times you want it to do something right now. Although it doesn't address the 50% SOC storage recommendation, it will keep it fully charged but with lots of cool down time. Would that not do the trick?

[MTOBATTERY]

It would certainly be an improvement.

Nora, I didn't think you were imposing. I just didn't read the previous post the whole way. Just wanted to clarify my statements further. Sorry if I came across defensive and I appreciate your bringing Inc's info to the board.

[nora k]

:)

no worries!

It would certainly be an improvement.

Nora, I didn't think you were imposing. I just didn't read the previous post the whole way. Just wanted to clarify my statements further. Sorry if I came across defensive and I appreciate your bringing Inc's info to the board.