Fire! The Sky Is Falling!! Circle The Wagons!!!

[Segwaiian]

I apologize, in advance, for the drama. :D

Since this is the world's oldest and largest Segway Internet forum, and SegwaySocial is in its infancy, this is probably the most effective way to reach gliders in Hawaii.

I was alerted yesterday by a local poster that an organized effort has been started to ban Segways from the sidewalks in the City and County of Honolulu. This morning, a friend of mine whose significant other is a long-time glider also told me the same thing. :eek: :mad:

Although we have a State law on EPAMDs that legalize Segways on sidewalks, more stringent municipal restrictions would be possible.

This is an appeal for any local gliders to go to social.segway.com (http://social.segway.com) and join Lupekau O'mao o Hawaii. We can use our Segway social group for sharing information and planning a cogent and organized response.

If any of you around the country have had similar experiences, we'd value your input. It would be really helpful to know what the opposition issues are in locales where they've been raised in public, rather than assuming that we know what they are.

Aloha,
Roger

[quade]

This is an appeal for any local gliders to go to social.segway.com (http://social.segway.com) and join Lupekau O'mao o Hawaii. We can use our Segway social group for sharing information and planning a cogent and organized response.

Honestly, I think you'd have a MUCH better time conducting business on this web site. In my opinion, social.segway.com would be a miserable failure in your communication efforts. The site simply isn't designed for on going discussions (or much of anything else useful at this time).

[rrc1962]

I read something interesting from an article written back when the Gen1 was in it's hayday. The author, who had tested the Segway extensively stated that a person running into another person at walking speed would not stop because of inertia. You know...Body in motion stays in motion.

Now take a person on a Segway at normal sidewalk walking speed. The first part of the Segway that contacts the other person is the handlebar. This pushes the handlebar back making the Segway reverse, thus there is no real contact.

Here is a link to the article. Follow the link on the bottom to "Part 2". Keep in mind, this was written back in 2002

http://danbricklin.com/segwayride1.htm

[nora k]

start by familiarizing yourself with the safety studies (http://www.segway.com/support/safety-studies.php)that Inc. provides you. I'm sure SOH is working with Inc. on this. They are an advocate in your court. They may not be able to show up (though who wouldn't want to!) they can help arm Channelle and everyone there with stats and safety data pertinent to the situation.

The best thing to do is stay focused on educating. The more people that get on a machine and realize it's not a danger, the better.

good luck! and of course, keep us updated.

lastly - i totally agree with quade. stay here and stick it under the user local enthusiast group area and post post post. segsocial wants to be what you want it to be - but it's just too young to handle something like that yet. copying announcements there would be a good way to reach a larger audience, but dialogue would be better handled here.

I apologize, in advance, for the drama. :D

Since this is the world's oldest and largest Segway Internet forum, and SegwaySocial is in its infancy, this is probably the most effective way to reach gliders in Hawaii.

I was alerted yesterday by a local poster that an organized effort has been started to ban Segways from the sidewalks in the City and County of Honolulu. This morning, a friend of mine whose significant other is a long-time glider also told me the same thing. :eek: :mad:

Although we have a State law on EPAMDs that legalize Segways on sidewalks, more stringent municipal restrictions would be possible.

This is an appeal for any local gliders to go to social.segway.com (http://social.segway.com) and join Lupekau O'mao o Hawaii. We can use our Segway social group for sharing information and planning a cogent and organized response.

If any of you around the country have had similar experiences, we'd value your input. It would be really helpful to know what the opposition issues are in locales where they've been raised in public, rather than assuming that we know what they are.

Aloha,
Roger

[quade]

The author claimed that the Segway was actually safer and less alp to injure another pedestrian in a collision than another person on foot.

The author has some flaws in his thinking. While this may be true at very low speeds ( greater than 0 and less than maybe 2 mph ), I think you'll find the Segway -rapidly- becomes more forceful as the speed increases. This is just how f=ma works. Every time you double the speed, you quadruple the force of impact. No amount of "push back" from the handlebars is going to overcome that force at a certain point and that same "push back" does, for all practical purposes, nothing to slow the body mass of the rider. The force of impact -has- to go somewhere.

If you doubt me, try it.

Additionally, there are other factors involved in a human v Segway collision; the additional mass of the Segway itself (current i2 is 105 pounds) and the ability of the device to go out of control of the rider.

[rrc1962]

The author has some flaws in his thinking. While this may be true at very low speeds ( greater than 0 and less than maybe 2 mph ), I think you'll find the Segway -rapidly- becomes more forceful as the speed increases.

So does a person running at 12MPH on foot. You may have a person ride a Segway on a busy sidewalk at full speed just like you may see a person running full gate on a busy sidewalk, but neither are likely to happen. For the most part, Segways are ridden by responsible people serious about alternative transportation. We're not teenage skateboarders wreaking havoc on every street corner.

I agree that the people arguing against the Segway just need to be educated. They see a person gliding along a bike path at 12MPH and assume we'll be doing the same on crowded sidewalks. They have no idea how the machine works and how much control you have. Either that or it looks like too much fun. Isn't that how government works? As soon as an activity becomes fun, someone makes a law against it. :) "That looks like too much fun. people shouldn't be allowed to do that."

[quade]

I'm not going to get into the subjective argument of responsible riding. That's simply not justifiable from either side and not anything that is in control of anyone except the rider himself.

So does a person running at 12MPH on foot.

The Segway + Rider is "about" 1/3 more mass. Just the physics alone should make it obvious that a collision with a Segway + Rider is more forceful than simply the Rider would have been if he had been traveling at the same speed on foot.

[bentbiker]

I was alerted yesterday by a local poster that an organized effort has been started to ban Segways from the sidewalks in the City and County of Honolulu. This morning, a friend of mine whose significant other is a long-time glider also told me the same thing. :eek: :mad:

Although we have a State law on EPAMDs that legalize Segways on sidewalks, more stringent municipal restrictions would be possible.

If any of you around the country have had similar experiences, we'd value your input. It would be really helpful to know what the opposition issues are in locales where they've been raised in public, rather than assuming that we know what they are.

Aloha,
Roger

In my opinion, most bans and threats thereof have be because of existing or announced tours/rentals. However, for ease of legislation, they tend to just ban all Segways instead of banning the problem activities.

Most have been covered here but the details can be hard to find if you haven't been reading for the last couple years. Check out these threads:
http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=13528&highlight=Manhattan+beach
http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=13460&highlight=Manhattan+beach
http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=14733&highlight=Manhattan+beach
http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=14991&highlight=sanibel
http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=14093&highlight=sanibel
http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=2732&highlight=santa+cruz
http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=17155&highlight=spitzer

There was at least one other ban in northern CA that was discussed, but I can't figure out how to pull it up. I was on a bike path used by 3 Segway gliders including Woz.

Finally, make sure you are aware of what Matt Dailida and INC are doing. The last thing you want is to be at odds with their efforts. And when dealing with the bureaucrats make sure you don't let them off the hook for doing what is best for the environment, congestion, parking, noise and air pollution. Make them aware that the Segway is not something to be tolerated, it is a step toward saving what is dear to Hawaii, including the abolition of wars for oil.

[Segwaiian]

Thanks for researching the threads, John. I was hoping for something like that, since I've only been on SC since November 2007.

The first person to contact me via SC PM is the manager for our local Segway dealer, so it seems safe to assume that they will coordinate with Inc.

She wants me to speak with our local newspaper to give the glider perspective. I want to have as much background on the issues as I can before this.

I am somewhat of an anomaly in Hawaii, and I don't mean because I replaced my car with an i2. Locals (I'm born & raised here) tend to be quiet and shy, unless you're in a profession that requires otherwise. An engaged conversation in Hawaii among people who aren't already friends is when one person makes a statement and the five other people in the room nod "Yes" in response. ;)

The second most frequent poster from Hawaii is the SoH manager, who markets tours and Segways. The SoH owner is an SC member, but has one post in 19 months.

Oh, yeah. The most frequent Hawaii poster would be me.

I value the comments and contributions of the SC community, but I thought Hawaii gliders might be more willing to share their thoughts with a smaller audience. I'll keep everyone here posted on what's happening in Hawaii. :)

Aloha,
Roger

[Segwaiian]

The author has some flaws in his thinking. While this may be true at very low speeds ( greater than 0 and less than maybe 2 mph ), I think you'll find the Segway -rapidly- becomes more forceful as the speed increases. This is just how f=ma works. Every time you double the speed, you quadruple the force of impact. No amount of "push back" from the handlebars is going to overcome that force at a certain point and that same "push back" does, for all practical purposes, nothing to slow the body mass of the rider. The force of impact -has- to go somewhere.


Shoot, here i go hijacking a thread, again. And, this time it's one that I started! :rolleyes:

So let's get this over with before the engineers and physicists get involved.

An object moving at a constant speed (not accelerating) has a net force of zero. (f=ma => m X 0= 0) It would take a certain amount of force to get that mass to a higher speed, but that depends of the acceleration rate.

p= mv (Momentum= mass X velocity)

Double the speed of a Segway and it has twice the momentum. We definitely have more momentum than the average pedestrian. The results of the meeting of said objects also depends on the vectors involved.

And that's about the extent of my physics background, thank you. :)

Having written all that, the bottom line is that if we come into contact with most pedestrians, it's the person on foot that loses.

My only actual fall, to date, was in order to avoid hitting a pedestrian. I was following behind her, at her walking speed, waiting for a wider spot up ahead to pass her. She veered to the right to look at a newspaper dispenser, so I figured I could pass her on the left without doing my usual "On your left" warning. She suddenly changed her mind and actually veered back to the left even farther. There was no way to slow down in time, so I turned sharply to the left, dropped about 3-4" off the sidewalk onto wet ferns, lost traction, and then was glad I was wearing my helmet. :D

The woman was very nice and asked me if I was OK. I assured her that I was fine and didn't mention her role in my acrobatics. I wonder if, since I didn't implicate her, she thought I was a reckless glider?

Aloha,
Roger

[rrc1962]

I agree that a speeding Segway would hurt someone, but I also agree with the original article that a 2MPH collision would be a non-event 99.9% of the time. All I'm saying is that I don't think Segways are a threat to other pedestrians when ridden responsibly.

I got hit by a guy on a bicycle in NYC three years ago while crossing the street on foot. The guy fell, scrambled to his feet and took off. I was in a knee brace for two months. He was doing about 30mph and ran a red light.

Just curious, are there documented instances of people getting hurt by Segway gliders or are these preemptive bans being imposed simply out of fear?

[quade]

or are these preemptive bans being imposed simply out of fear?

Honestly? I believe the majority of them are being imposed preemptively out of fear of competitive forces.

Even in the most Segway dense areas of the country, it would be incredibly rare to even see one in the wild let alone have a close encounter of the lawsuit kind.

[quade]

p= mv (Momentum= mass X velocity)

I was, of course, talking about the force of a collision, which I think you'll agree does in fact increase at a rate of the square of the velocity.

[DarthSegVator]

[QUOTE=quade;169337]No amount of "push back" from the handlebars is going to overcome that force at a certain point and that same "push back" does, for all practical purposes, nothing to slow the body mass of the rider. The force of impact -has- to go somewhere.QUOTE]

I disagree.

A glider/Segway will abruptly cease forward motion when an encounter occurs as suggested. The momentum is not only halted, the motors reverse to compensate. If the glider continues to be propelled forward, they have not been operating the device in the proper fashion.

Let's say you have a mass of X (200 lbs. person) contacting a person Y (200 lbs. person on Segway for a total of 300 lbs.).

The 300 lbs. mass (Y) not only stops upon contact with the 200 lbs. mass (X), but reverses direction to prevent the mass (Y) from continuing its' forward motion (at least the Segway portion of the equation). The person can leave the Segway and continue forward, but the Segway will not. Again, if the person is operating the machine properly, they will stop too.

A human mass simply tries to stop....a Segway stops.

[quade]

A human mass simply tries to stop....a Segway stops.

Please make a video and upload it to YouTube.

I suggest various speeds; 1, 2, 4, 8 and 12 mph.

To avoid injury to the person not on a Segway, you can use any 200 pound object you would like to substitute, but you need to ride the Segway yourself.

Contact must occur at the speeds indicated. No amount of slowing down before contact is allowed, this is to ensure the claim that the device, and not the rider himself, is what is what is making the collision "safer".

Alternately, you can get the Mythbusters involved. :)

[KSagal]

I am sure someone will try to take me to the woodshed on this thought, but...

Much of my mass, as a man, is high in my body, in my torso and chest...

So, the center of mass, when on my feet is high.

When I am on my segway, I do weigh 1/3 more, and therefore have more mass, but there is a significant mass below my feet, very low...

So, the center of mass, when on my segway is much lower...

The function of friction applied to the sidewalk is a major force in stopping the momentum of my movement. This could be the friction of my feet not moving as fast as my chest while I try to stop running, or the friction of my tires not moving as fast as my center of mass when trying to stop gliding...

It seems to me, that the closer to the point of stopping (the friction) that the center of mass is, the better...

Clearly, there is much more involved. I know this...

But, additionally to all else, the slowing segway platform tilts back...

The affect of this, is that the movement of mass, the momentum, is somewhat transferred to the base, as it is tilted lower in the back, higher in the front...

If there were force sensors, I believe it would record more pressure on the soles of your feet during a hard segway stop.

So... The friction of the tires on the sidewalk being good enough that they do not slip, the weight of the rider being somewhat shifted downward toward the platform, and the center of mass being lower to start with, lead me to conclude that the increased efficiency of the segway stop much more than compensates for the increased mass.

In other words, I believe the segway can stop faster than the same speed runner...

And I believe that this is a significant improvement on being hit by a segway compared to being hit by a runner...

A notable exception is that portions of the segway are very hard, and getting in the shins is not fun by a sneaker, and less fun by a segway...

[quade]

In other words, I believe the segway can stop faster than the same speed runner...

This, I believe is true.

However, we're not talking about stopping distances; we're are talking about impact.

During an impact at 12 mph, I'm not convinced that your feet would even remain in contact with the base. The collapsing body, the bending of the knees and the forward momentum of the legs and feet would, in my estimation make that unlikely.

If anyone actually cares to do my test, I think they'll be surprised at the force of a collision at 12 mph . . . or even 4.

[KSagal]

Much as I do not really want to agree with Quade, it does really matter what you impact with...

Several years ago, while gliding along at 10 or 12 miles per hour, on a clear cold day in town, on a sidewalk where I was utterly alone...

There was plenty of snow on the ground, but the sidewalks were clear, and the snow was several days old, so the sun had dried the sidewalks even though it was below freezing temperatures...

I came thru a slight turn and could easily see far ahead, but the 2 foot snow banks obscured my view of the sidewalk itself at the far side of the curve...

The wind had blown a soft drift of snow, about 5 or 6 inches deep, about 1 or 2 feet wide, across the sidewalk...

This impact was soft, on a scale comparing it to hitting a person or wall, but the seg slowed down very fast, and I went over the handlebars, and then the seg popped back onto it's wheels (I did not really completely lay down forward, just enough to buck me off) and it tried to climb thru the snow, and did because I was gone... It bounded off and hit some more snow and did an interesting series of maneuvers...


In this case, the seg did most definitely slow down without me... One of my true and few cases where I left the machine not of my own wishes...

[serrow]

I'm awfully curious. Who is the group? what are their issues? have there been documented injuries?

Has SEG OF HAWAII been getting complaints? if the city's police are using them I find it hard to believe they would let that investment go kaput.

[quade]

if the city's police are using them I find it hard to believe they would let that investment go kaput.

Government agencies can easily be exempted, much like a mall that won't permit you to use Segway, but have patrol officers using them.

[Segwaiian]

I was, of course, talking about the force of a collision, which I think you'll agree does in fact increase at a rate of the square of the velocity.

Sorry, I haven't taken physics since my sophomore year in college, which was so long ago that introductory computer classes basically taught BASIC. ;)

I'm having trouble with this square of the velocity thing. Even the f=ma equation wouldn't increase force by a squared increment. If you recall the formula, I could learn something form it. Any physics I talk here is a bluff. :o

I do recall that light intensity (or luminosity, or whatever) decreases by the square of the distance as you get farther away from the light source. But, please LET'S NOT USE THIS LAST (MIS?)STATEMENT TO TAKE THIS THREAD ANY FARTHER OFF COURSE. :D

Aloha, and Peace Out,
Roger

[GlennO]

I think it is time for a few more inputs on this...................

First of all, this was probably started by a ped not watching where they were going, and they had a close encounter of the Seg kind. Unfortunately said ped has some sort of of influence on the government here.

Two, and I sort of hate to say this, but the maximum speed limit here is 8 mph, not 12. This worked great for the Gen 1 units, and yes, I only used the yellow key when gliding. The Gen 2 units have no restriction, and this encounter might have been with a Seg going a little faster than was legal.

Third, I am almost 100% sure that this happened on or near the Waikiki Beach area, which doesn't leave much room for any gliders. I know because I lived across the street from the Hilton for over a year.

Fourth, the glider that started this mess probably didn't own it, and was a little careless, but I can't see banning anything because of a few close calls. Crap, how about we ban cars - no accidents there!

What if Segs had a license plate that could easily be read by peds that got too close? Would that be going too far? - Ok, what about having all rented Segways getting painted numbers on the fronts and backs of the batteries?

Now you may continue with your regular hijacked thread. :)

Glenn

[Segwaiian]

It seems to me, that the closer to the point of stopping (the friction) that the center of mass is, the better...

But, additionally to all else, the slowing segway platform tilts back...

The affect of this, is that the movement of mass, the momentum, is somewhat transferred to the base, as it is tilted lower in the back, higher in the front...

So... The friction of the tires on the sidewalk being good enough that they do not slip, the weight of the rider being somewhat shifted downward toward the platform, and the center of mass being lower to start with, lead me to conclude that the increased efficiency of the segway stop much more than compensates for the increased mass.
...

Karl, two points:
1. I edited your post just to keep mine shorter.
2. I'm not picking on you, you're just the last person to go off on this physics thing (OK, I admit that I responded to Quade, which technically makes me the last one. But, mine was really short. :D )

So, guys, it's an interesting discussion, but there is a serious issue at stake in this thread. Can you guys somehow move Segway Physics 101 to a new thread, please? :)

And, when you do, I'd like to make a suggestion that we send this over to Mythbusters. I'm sure Adam would love this topic and they'll turn Buster into a pseudopedestrian. :eek:

Mahalo,
Roger

[quade]

If you recall the formula, I could learn something form it.

Okies . . . the actual formula specific to the task at had has to do with kinetic energy. (I have a tendency to use the shortcut of f=ma to massively represent just about everything involving power and motion {Newtonian physics}, but it's technically not the one we're really talking about.)

Kinetic energy is the amount of energy of a moving object has due to its motion and mass.

Ek=1/2(mv^2)

Ek = joules
m = mass in kilograms
v = velocity in meters per second

All of the above said, you could just as easily have, m = pounds, v = miles per hours and Ek = a mythical unit I call "ouchies".

1/2(300x6^2) = 5400
1/2(300x12^2) = 21600

21600 ouchies is 4 times as great as 5400 ouchies. :)

Wikipedia ref (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy#Calculations)

[Segwaiian]

I think it is time for a few more inputs on this...................

First of all, this was probably started by a ped not watching where they were going, and they had a close encounter of the Seg kind. Unfortunately said ped has some sort of of influence on the government here.

Two, and I sort of hate to say this, but the maximum speed limit here is 8 mph, not 12. This worked great for the Gen 1 units, and yes, I only used the yellow key when gliding. The Gen 2 units have no restriction, and this encounter might have been with a Seg going a little faster than was legal.

Third, I am almost 100% sure that this happened on or near the Waikiki Beach area, which doesn't leave much room for any gliders. I know because I lived across the street from the Hilton for over a year.

Fourth, the glider that started this mess probably didn't own it, and was a little careless, but I can't see banning anything because of a few close calls. Crap, how about we ban cars - no accidents there!

What if Segs had a license plate that could easily be read by peds that got too close? Would that be going too far? - Ok, what about having all rented Segways getting painted numbers on the fronts and backs of the batteries?

Now you may continue with your regular hijacked thread. :)

Glenn

I VOTE FOR CANDY-STRIPED RENTAL SEGS! :p

With hula skirts on.

Did I tell you folks about the hula maiden hood ornament on the 4WD jeep on Lanai?? :D

I just got off the phone with the owner of Segway of Hawaii. Manager Channelle, who is running point on this, was out. Owner said that the issue is being pushed by some group whose name and relevancy wasn't clear; it's some kind of Waikiki real estate trade association. It's not the Waikiki Community Board, which is an elected public board, nor the Waikiki Improvement Association, which represents the interests of Waikiki businesses. Owner said there will be a story over the weekend in the local paper http://honoluluadvertiser.com and that he thinks they have things under control.

Will keep SegwayChat posted.

Aloha,
Roger

[Sal]

The mod was busy watching the Sharks v. Stars game.

I have copied the most "physics" related posts to another thread:

http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=18585

Enjoy.

-Sal

[Segwaiian]

Okies . . . the actual formula specific to the task at had has to do with kinetic energy. (I have a tendency to use the shortcut of f=ma to massively represent just about everything involving power and motion {Newtonian physics}, but it's technically not the one we're really talking about.)

Kinetic energy is the amount of energy of a moving object has due to its motion and mass.

Ek=1/2(mv^2)

Ek = joules
m = mass in kilograms
v = velocity in meters per second

All of the above said, you could just as easily have, m = pounds, v = miles per hours and Ek = a mythical unit I call "ouchies".

1/2(300x6^2) = 5400
1/2(300x12^2) = 21600

21600 ouchies is 4 times as great as 5400 ouchies. :)

Wikipedia ref (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy#Calculations)

No, I don't remember, but I know it wasn't you, Quade. ;)

OK, I get it. When I sacrificed Sig. Dispositivo and myself for the pedestrian, I experienced a couple of Eks. :rolleyes:

Now, can we unununhijack the thread, people?

Please? :o

Thanks,
Roger

[Sal]

Now, can we unununhijack the thread, people?

Please? :o

Thanks,
Roger

Too late, Sharks just tied it up. :-) I'm off for more hockey.

But my $0.02. From everything I have read regarding groups of folks (usually "pedestrian advocacy groups") who lobby / push for banning Segways, know very little if anything at all about Segways. Their most vocal participants haven't even been on a machine, and quote potentials and "what if's" rather than data, which they don't have. Be reasonable, knowledgeable, professional, and have a stern but sympathetic ear. Support your side of the argument with facts rather than suppositions. I am sure many more will have suggestions and resources for you.

-Sal

[Segwaiian]

The mod was busy watching the Sharks v. Stars game.

I have copied the most "physics" related posts to another thread:

http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=18585

Enjoy.

-Sal

Thanks, Sal.

As you can tell from the post with my request to move Physics, I did think the physics discussion was fun. I already posted on the new thread. :D

Hope the game was good.

Aloha,
Roger

[serrow]

well... if it's waikiki well, they live by their own set of rules down there. I do hope this does not get out of hand since I really do enjoy crashing my segway on my 1.5 mile glide to work. I feel far more safe than on my beast of a motorcycle.

[mreisner]

There was a podcast on iTunes some time ago that gave some really good answers to the questions that public officials etc have about Segways. It was put together by Chris Knight, who's on the West Coast. There was a ton of good information in it and would be very helpful for anyone who is going up against big govt. Unfortunately, I deleted my copy of it. Does anyone else have a copy? Is Chris Knight out there somewhere?

[MzSegwayofHawaii]

So hey everyone I wish I was here at the beginning of the thread..I had surgery on my mouth so I couldn't talk. So let me update everyone as to whats going on...
apparently, this 'group' would like to ban the segways in 'congested' waikiki along the sidewalks. also, with some research, this particular 'group' does NOT live in waikiki and from what I understand they are from the states..snow birds maybe. the article is set to come out on Monday. I was there with the reporter, we took some photos of us on the i2 in normal every day life. Fortunately, we do well with the Honolulu advertiser and the reporter agreed with us, being Segway of Hawaii.

I have also joined the group on Seg Social!!! Segways have come very far to be shut down over something silly. I will post the article as soon as I get it...thank you for all the support from everyone and all of the research. I'm looking into doing a Hawaii Group Glide in May...thinking something in the evening.

GLIDE ON!!!!!!

[Artisan]

I'm rather surprised that no one yet has brought to attention that many handicapped Segway riders also use those sidewalks. Only some will be obvious as disabled. Does that mean that handicap logos have to be used in order for them to continue using their gliders? I understand that many love their Segs just because (while it sets them off from the crowd) it does not make it obvious that they are disabled as being in a wheelchair would. I would direct any commitee to the Nightly News report segment that was done recently on the Segs for Vets.
It sounds that enforment is sticter there than here where I live. We share (illegally) our sidewalks with skateboards and bikers. Many bikers go full out where I can set my i2's speed. If a regulation has to go through perhaps a compromise can be set where a Seg like a Gen 2 can only glide in turtle mode.

[Segwaiian]

"GLIDE ON!!!..."

I like that. It's...

Groovy. :)

And, now that we've talked on the phone and I wouldn't be ribbing a total stranger-

Channelle, umm, explain to Segway Chat how being speechless hinders your keyboard use, please.

Thassa joke, MzSegway, thassa joke! Thufferin' thuccotash! :D

And thanks for joining Lupekau O'mao o Hawaii, the local Segway Social group! Green Gliders of Hawaii! I mua! (Forward!)

Aloha,
Roger

[Segwaiian]

I'm rather surprised that no one yet has brought to attention that many handicapped Segway riders also use those sidewalks. Only some will be obvious as disabled. Does that mean that handicap logos have to be used in order for them to continue using their gliders? I understand that many love their Segs just because (while it sets them off from the crowd) it does not make it obvious that they are disabled as being in a wheelchair would. I would direct any commitee to the Nightly News report segment that was done recently on the Segs for Vets.
It sounds that enforment is sticter there than here where I live. We share (illegally) our sidewalks with skateboards and bikers. Many bikers go full out where I can set my i2's speed. If a regulation has to go through perhaps a compromise can be set where a Seg like a Gen 2 can only glide in turtle mode.

Yup, Artisan. It sounds like it's a small group of unhappy individuals, rather than the local community board or neighborhood business association. The story will be in Monday's (4/28/08) paper, http://honoluluadvertiser.com. It sounds like the newspaper is sympathetic to Segways.

There is enough Segway use in the disabled and commercial communities in Honolulu that a total ban would be unlikely. What individual gliders are worried about is a selective ban that restricts private (non-disabled) use (and for our dealer, tour use) or restricts access to certain areas other than for security and safety reasons.

Personally, I would accept turtle mode use in Waikiki, or I would program my Infokey to comply with strict enforcement of the 8 MPH speed limit in Waikiki.

I can just see it. Speed traps on the sidewalks of Kalakaua Avenue. :rolleyes:

Aloha,
Roger

P.S.: Don't get me started on skateboarders, etc. The other day I was behind one on a narrow sidewalk and no amount of horn tooting or yelling, "Excuse me!" could get his attention. When the sidewalk widened and I went around him, I could hear the music from his iPod!

[Artisan]

Some people just have too much time on their hands....and control issues. Out here we call them "Homeowners Associations".

[quade]

P.S.: Don't get me started on skateboarders, etc. The other day I was behind one on a narrow sidewalk and no amount of horn tooting or yelling, "Excuse me!" could get his attention. When the sidewalk widened and I went around him, I could hear the music from his iPod!

Understand that this attitude you have toward skateboards is very similar to how some people see Segway riders.

I would -highly- caution against using skateboarders in your public arguments. You're going to make a lot of enemies out of the skateboarders and give ammunition to the other people against you.

Your arguments ought to be;
"Segway are specifically authorized by state law."
"Segways have not been involved in any accidents in the local area." -- (Hopefully this is true)
"Segways have been found to be safe for use on sidewalks by the various studies." -- (then list them)

If you let emotion rule, if you remind people of reasons why they should not be used, if you lose your cool -- you lose.

[MzSegwayofHawaii]

ha..funny speechless keyboard..

blonde moment (no offense to anyone)

...just dyed my hair from blonde to brown so HA. leftovers:rolleyes:

[Segwaiian]

Some people just have too much time on their hands....and control issues. Out here we call them "Homeowners Associations".

Hahahahaha... :D

Funny that my paperwork is sitting here as I keep posting. :rolleyes:

Manager Channelle of the local dealership thinks these people who want Segways banned in Waikiki are a group of snowbirds.

OK, before all you Canadians start throwing stones at me over the chat bandwidth, calm down! In Hawaii we refer to anyone from a snowy clime who winters for several months in our fair State as a snowbird. At my church, we have regular winter attendees from Baja Ontario every year.

But, you're right about having a lot of time on their hands. These people are here for extended periods and are out on the sidewalks a lot so they are much more likely to come across a Segway than the average tourist who spends a week here and is out of Waikiki touring all day. Someone might have turned a corner and come face-to-face with a daydreaming or distracted glider, just once.

Like Nora K has posted, Seg-tiquette and courtesy are important. We are, after all, ambassadors for all other Segways that follow in our glide paths.

Aloha,
Roger

[Segwaiian]

Understand that this attitude you have toward skateboards is very similar to how some people see Segway riders.

I would -highly- caution against using skateboarders in your public arguments. You're going to make a lot of enemies out of the skateboarders and give ammunition to the other people against you.

Your arguments ought to be;
"Segway are specifically authorized by state law."
"Segways have not been involved in any accidents in the local area." -- (Hopefully this is true)
"Segways have been found to be safe for use on sidewalks by the various studies." -- (this list them)

If you let emotion rule, if you remind people of reasons why they should not be used, if you lose your cool -- you lose.

No worries, Quade. :D

My skateboard rant was only for this forum, and does not apply to all skateboarders. I was just riffing off Artisan's post. ;)

We argue our case on the merits of Segways, period. Nobody wins if we start trashing other population groups, we only alienate or start more fires.

In any group or class, there's always someone who fits a different profile. We shouldn't judge the group on the (mis)behavior of the outlier or on a single anomalous incident. It's unfortunate that some people will judge Segways this way, like the group I described.

I do appreciate your counsel. Mahalo.

OK, don't get me started on long-haired, knit-capped, iPod listening, teenaged male skateboarders on the sidewalk along Ala Moana Park... :D

BTW, my wife bought me a small radio with earbuds soon after I got my i2 because it was football season and I didn't want to miss a U. Hawaii road game while gliding home. I haven't used it yet because I've been afraid it would hinder my ability to be an alert glider.

Maybe I should disconnect the buds and crank the volume up on an easy listening station to annoy the young boys who drive around with their windows down, blasting everyone with rap. Oops, now I'm showing my 'tude against another group... :)

Aloha,
Roger

P.S.: It's good to have this forum to vent on or to bounce ideas around being taking them public.

[Artisan]

Understand that this attitude you have toward skateboards is very similar to how some people see Segway riders.

I would -highly- caution against using skateboarders in your public arguments. You're going to make a lot of enemies out of the skateboarders and give ammunition to the other people against you.

Your arguments ought to be;
"Segway are specifically authorized by state law."
"Segways have not been involved in any accidents in the local area." -- (Hopefully this is true)
"Segways have been found to be safe for use on sidewalks by the various studies." -- (this list them)

If you let emotion rule, if you remind people of reasons why they should not be used, if you lose your cool -- you lose.

I very much agree... keep it positive. You stay cool and factual...let the other group appear to get emotive and lose it.

[nora k]

hi maria, i didn't see anyone respond to your question. chris knight is known around these parts as neelix, and if you make it to SegwayFesT (http://www.segwayfest2008.com) this August you'll get a chance to meet him!

There was a podcast on iTunes some time ago that gave some really good answers to the questions that public officials etc have about Segways. It was put together by Chris Knight, who's on the West Coast. There was a ton of good information in it and would be very helpful for anyone who is going up against big govt. Unfortunately, I deleted my copy of it. Does anyone else have a copy? Is Chris Knight out there somewhere?

[verogolfer]

I'm back north in Massachusetts, one of my home states. There were bills circulating last fall in the legislature to severely restrict Segway operation in Mass. I wrote emails to my local state congressman (Tom Conroy) and local state senator (Scott Brown) detailing my personal story; i.e. successful experiences with the Segway in Mass. in the fall and in Vero Beach (FL) over the winter. I pointed out in detail, with examples, how the proposed laws were excessive and out of touch with reality.

I received replies from both, and Scott Brown emailed me that both bills are dead, at least for this session. I'm sure Segway Inc. and other MA owners had a hand in stalling off this legislation.

So, I think your idea of organizing a group is excellent. You also need to specifically identify the politicians who can help you and line up their support - by email at least, and in person if you can. Give them demos, be seen on the street by everyday people, doing your everyday things - like going to the grocery, the mall, and/or the golf course.

Then, you need to smoke out the forces behind the proposed ban - who they are and why they think they need it - then figure out how to defuse their interest in the ban. e.g. Segways are truly "green", how would they like to be publicly known as anti-ecology in Hawaii? With $5.00 gas and great weather, why wouldn't you want a Segway? I told everyone in Vero it was my "convertible".

Good luck with your quest. fyi my sister is a librarian on Oahu.

vbg

[serrow]

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008804280334

[Segwaiian]

Thanks to everyone who had constructive comments and suggestions.

FYI, here's the link to the article in today's edition of our local morning newspaper.

The situation is perhaps more serious a threat to Segway access than I posted most recently, as the person with the problem is a member of the Waikiki Neighborhood Board. In the City and County of Honolulu, neighborhood boards are elected public bodies that is supposed to be an accessiible interface between communities and the City government. The Council member quoted in the article represents Waikiki.

Aloha,
Roger

http://honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080428/NEWS01/804280334/1001/LOCALNEWSFRONT

[quade]

. . . as the person with the problem is a member of the Waikiki Neighborhood Board.

Have you spoken directly with THAT individual yet?

[jgbackes]

Put them on a Segway!

Have you spoken directly with THAT individual yet?

[MagiMike]

I saw this as a significent quote from the article.

"Flood, of the neighborhood board, said he has almost been hit by a Segway because it came up behind him so quickly." :eek:

One bad experience and it colors his outlook and could cause significent problems.

[pam]

But he wasn't hit, and how did he know he'd almost been hit, it was behind him! Something doesnt' make sense to me.
Pam

[GlennO]

Pam - isn't that why part of this title is - The sky is falling? :)

Glenn

[Segwaiian]

I spoke to the owner and manager of the local dealership over the last three days. They have agreed to run point on this.

I also posted information about the next meeting of the Waikiki Neighborhood Board as well as information about that Board on our local Segway Social message board.

Rather than individual owners calling Mr. Flood, especially since I don't live or work in Waikiki, it's probably better for us to coordinate any local efforts through Segway of Hawaii. I will probably attend that Board meeting.

Thanks to all for their concern and constructive comments. :)

Aloha,
Roger

[Segwaiian]

But he wasn't hit, and how did he know he'd almost been hit, it was behind him! Something doesnt' make sense to me.
Pam

The sidewalks in Waikiki can get really crowded, especially when waiting for Walk signals at intersections.

I can picture Mr. Flood walking along on Kalakaua Avenue at 2 MPH. Segway glides quietly up from behind him, passing him on his side at 3 MPH, maybe 2 feet (or closer) away. He has the perception of movement at the edge of his visual field, turns his head, and sees this thing a foot taller than him rolling next to him. To the good Mr. Flood, this contraption he's never seen before snuck up on him, going faster than he is, without warning.

Was he in danger? No. Did he perceive himself to be in danger? Maybe, yes.

I'm average height in Hawaii, shorter than average for the Mainland. On my i2, with my helmet, I'm 6'7" tall and I weigh 265#. I'm the height and weight of an NFL defensive end when I'm on a Segway.

And, no, I'm not going to lose the helmet. :D

It's about education, it's about Seg-tiquette.

I verbally alert people that I'm going to pass them, or use my horn. I decrease my speed in direct proportion to how close I'll be passing them. Some people still jump when they turn and see Sig. Dispositivo and me. The horn startles pedestrians even more than my verbal alert.

Aloha,
Roger

[MzSegwayofHawaii]

alright so here i am jumping in head first...

thank you to everyone who is helping. just so everyone knows i'm currently compiling together a portfolio with case studies, the training we provide, FAQ's and everything to take in to this meeting on May 13th with the association. We will be bringing our segways with us to this meeting. Alan (the owner) and I are putting together a few presentations as well....

perhaps a group glide to the meeting and some pupus will be nice, alan and i thought it was a great idea. i suppose though if 15 segways ride up to the meeting it's going to look like an ambush! ----->CCCHHHARRRRGGGEEE<------ i'm just kidding.

We think we'll be fine. I need to do a little more research before I say much else but I will keep everyone very informed.

[jgbackes]

BTW, a small bike bell (ding, ding, ding) is much better than a horn. I used JRWilcox's this weekend and it seems to work just as well as saying "on your left" as I passed people. Another problem is walkers and their iPods, they can't hear a bell, my voice, or a horn.

[Segwaiian]

BTW, a small bike bell (ding, ding, ding) is much better than a horn. I used JRWilcox's this weekend and it seems to work just as well as saying "on your left" as I passed people. Another problem is walkers and their iPods, they can't hear a bell, my voice, or a horn.

Thanks, Jeff.

I should clarify my "horn." I know someone else has the same thing because I've seen a picture of one attached to an i2 handlebar on this site. I have a little plastic sumo wrestler that quacks like a duck when squeezed. I can vary the quack volume by how hard I squeeze. So, it's a rubber duckie masquerading as a sumotori. :)

I really should get a bike bell, because pedestrians are probably more familiar with that sound. I just like my Sumo Duck. :D

BTW, try long-haired, knitcapped, teenaged male skateboarders with iPods, tacking along on the sidewalk of a busy street. He probably wouldn't hear the Blue Angels flying directly overhead in a low-altitude Diamond 360.

He'd feel them, though.

And we won't mention him, walkers with iPods or on cell phones, bicyclists, etc. at the Neighborhood Board meeting. ;)

Aloha,
Roger

[Neelix]

I've thought about the "horn" issue for a while.

I'm really, really uncomfortable passing people if there isn't a lot of room. I'm also really, really uncomfortable saying "on your left" or "excuse me" to get someone to MAKE room.

I cannot imagine ever using a horn or bell. It feels to me like the height of rudeness. Not only am I am signaling that I need this person to adjust their behavior for me, but I don't even have the courtesy to use _human language_ to do so?

All this being said, you can imagine how many times I've been late getting somewhere because I've been forced to follow behind someone at a walking pace for 3 or 4 blocks. The crappy thing is that if I were jogging or even just briskly walking, there would be no problem; I would just excuse myself and walk by. But because people are still ignorant IDIOTS about my choice of transportation....

[Segwaiian]

I've thought about the "horn" issue for a while.

I'm really, really uncomfortable passing people if there isn't a lot of room. I'm also really, really uncomfortable saying "on your left" or "excuse me" to get someone to MAKE room.

I cannot imagine ever using a horn or bell. It feels to me like the height of rudeness. Not only am I am signaling that I need this person to adjust their behavior for me, but I don't even have the courtesy to use _human language_ to do so?

All this being said, you can imagine how many times I've been late getting somewhere because I've been forced to follow behind someone at a walking pace for 3 or 4 blocks. The crappy thing is that if I were jogging or even just briskly walking, there would be no problem; I would just excuse myself and walk by. But because people are still ignorant IDIOTS about my choice of transportation....

It's cool, Neelix. It's about the glide. You've been doing it way longer than I have, it's great that you're still being gracious, despite the sometimes callous attitude of the general public. :)

I do the "On your left/right" when there's enough room to pass. Otherwise, if there's not enough room to get around, I'll say "Excuse me." I try to remember to say "Thank you" when they let me pass. I justify asking to get by because I would do it if I were on foot, since I walk faster than most pedestrians.

I save Sumo Duck for people with iPods or on cell phones who don't hear me. :D

I've had to follow people, also. And I'll take the bumpy off-sidewalk excursion to pass, or yield to oncoming folks, if possible, rather than inconvenience pedestrians, bicycles, skateboards, electric scooters, etc.

The way I see it, we're ambassadors for a mode of transportation that's still the exception instead of a generally accepted alternative, no matter how responsible or cool it is.

The other day I was gliding along a busy street street (on the sidewalk) during rush hour. A guy on a moped looked back at me and smiled as he passed. I gave him the shaka sign (Local version of "thumbs up," done with thumb and little finger). His smile got bigger and he returned the sign. Maybe next time he's approaching an intersection as a Segway's starting to cross, he'll yield instead of speeding up to cut us off. :)

We're gliding, and they're not.

Alone,
Roge

[Artisan]

One of things I was musing about last night was how we appear to pedestrians. I'm over 6 feet tall already. Over the years I noticed different reactions to my height. Being a woman my height does not seem to affect other women because most are already used to men being taller then them. Some (most) men I have met though seem very intimitated by my being taller then them. It gets rather amusing because they back up and if there is any kind of step around they get up it:rolleyes:just to be taller than me. My point is perhaps this person who started all this may have not been so startled by the Seg because of coming up behind him but rather the feeling of being loomed over. I don't know this person but since he is a position of power striking back at Seg riders might be a personal control issue dealing with his own insecurity. I mean what did the article say? Only about 100 Seg owners in the area? And how many are actually using sidewalks? Doesn't seem worth the effort. I wonder if anyone has done any studies on the reactions of persons encountering ridden Segways? For the police standing above the crowd may give a feeling of confidence to those around them. But having someone non authoritarion approching at what appears to be a rapid pace (subjective) then appearing to loom over them may cause a negative reaction. We tend to fear what we don't understand or control. We as riders can laugh it off because we understand our machines. But after reading some of the negative comments posted on the news articles sites you might think that we are driving out of control tanks down the sidewalk. I think most of these people have not even seen a Seg. One of the first things I noticed before I bought mine was how really small it is. Not intimitating at all. I think people ought to see the Segs before a rider mounts it. Then demonstate how useful it is. After all it was designed to help people.

[Segwaiian]

Artisan, I tend to agree with you about the height thing. It's like how I'm the size of an NFL tight end on my i2.

Take three travelers, all of average height: One's on an electric mobility scooter, another's on a bicycle, and someone on an i2.

When a pedestrian is passed, they look to the side and look down at the person on the scooter, and probably gaze at eye level or so with the bicyclist. Then they look to the side at the glider and have to make a distinct extension of their head to look up at the head of the person on the i2. It sometimes seems like having to look up is what startles pedestrians I pass.

It's like shorter men with you, the height is intimidating.

While, when approaching a pedestrian, the height makes us more visible, the sight of someone 6-1/2' or 7' tall coming at you at a good pace is like that tight end running towards you.

We need to do a study of pedestrian perceptions with gliders of different heights. ;)

Aloha,
Roger

[amturnip]

I've thought about .... using a horn or bell. It feels to me like the height of rudeness.

Of all bicyclists who pass me from behind while I'm out walking or sailing, my favorites are the ones who ring a nice little bell: ding, ... ding, ... ding (maybe 7 seconds apart) as they approach from quite a distance behind me. When the cyclist has many people to pass, the same 600 feet of ding... ding... ding... suffices for everyone.

(At the risk of over analyzing... maybe the key thing is that the periodic dings convey information, not advice.)

[quade]

cannot imagine ever using a horn or bell. It feels to me like the height of rudeness. Not only am I am signaling that I need this person to adjust their behavior for me, but I don't even have the courtesy to use _human language_ to do so?

That said, it IS part of the California state law.

vc21281(d) (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21281.htm)


21281. Every electric personal assistive mobility device, or EPAMD, shall be equipped with the following safety mechanisms:
(a) Front, rear, and side reflectors.

(b) A system that enables the operator to bring the device to a controlled stop.

(c) If the EPAMD is operated between one-half hour after sunset and one-half hour before sunrise, a lamp emitting a white light that, while the EPAMD is in motion, illuminates the area in front of the operator and is visible from a distance of 300 feet in front of the EPAMD.

(d) A sound emitting device that can be activated from time to time by the operator, as appropriate, to alert nearby persons.


Emphasis mine.

[Segwaiian]

Although it has been suggested that it needs work, I really like Hawaii's EPAMD law for Segways, overall:

[§291C-134.5] Electric personal assistive mobility devices; restrictions. (a) An electric personal assistive mobility device may be operated on the sidewalks, at a speed no greater than eight miles per hour, and bicycle paths of the State. The sale of consumer models of electric personal assistive mobility devices in the State shall be limited to those models operated by a key that can set the maximum forward speed at no more than eight miles per hour.

(b) An electric personal assistive mobility device operator shall be sixteen years of age or older.

(c) An electric personal assistive mobility device operator on a sidewalk or bicycle path shall exercise due care to avoid colliding with, and shall yield the right-of-way to, persons traveling on foot and those using mobility aids.

(d) An electric personal assistive mobility device operator shall give an audible signal before overtaking and passing any pedestrian.

(e) An electric personal assistive mobility device operator shall wear or equip the electric personal assistive mobility device with reflectors and a headlamp when operating between one-half hour after sunset and one-half hour before sunrise.

(f) Any operator who operates an electric personal assistive mobility device recklessly in disregard for the safety of persons or property shall be assessed penalties as set forth in section 291C-161. [L 2003, c 180, §2]

As restriction (d) is written, we have a lot of leeway in Hawaii on how we alert pedestrians. I spoke with a police officer acquaintance about this and he confirmed that a verbal alert is acceptable.

And this is my 200th post! :D At this rate, I'll catch up to Karl in... well... umm, let's see... :rolleyes:

BTW, that whoopee cushion would work in California, depending on the interpretation of "as appropriate." :p

Aloha,
Roger :):)

[MzSegwayofHawaii]

Alrighty so I have spent the last 2 days on segway chat not posting but researching pulling everything up making a portfolio to go to Mr. Flood with this afternoon at 4pm. We are having a private meeting to discuss said matters. I'm nervous, if I drink another cup of coffee I think I'll 'huli over'

I'm sure everything will be fine...and in the spirit of lei day..i give you all leis for all the help you've provided me.

I can recite to everyone case studies as I have been reading and taking notes, I even had to go to walmart to buy more stickies...sheesh.

By the way to the idea of making a video on you tube...i was able to obtain a CPR dummie that weighs about 175lbs so I will be crash testing this thing sometime throughout the weekend...should be fun.

~sigh~

[Neelix]

That said, it IS part of the California state law.

vc21281(d) (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21281.htm)



Emphasis mine.

And this is why I carry a cell phone.

It can be operated from time to time to emit sound to alert nearby persons.


Also, in response to amturnip, I don't think it's rude for bikes to use dingers or horns. They're vehicles. A person riding a segway is a pedestrian, and pedestrians using bells or horns feels wrong to me.

[Segwaiian]

By the way to the idea of making a video on you tube...i was able to obtain a CPR dummie that weighs about 175lbs so I will be crash testing this thing sometime throughout the weekend...should be fun.


Channelle!

Please read through the "Physics of Segway" thread! Let us know if the i2 LSF senses resistance from the dummy and goes into reverse.

Smile for the video, now. :)

BTW, I know we wander a bit on this thread, but "What The Hey!";) I started this thread and I don't mind. If you put a name tag on Crash Test Dummy and name it Mr. F, I think we're on subject.

Just make sure you write small so the name isn't visible on the video, and don't say its name on the audio portion. :D

Aloha,
Roger

[MzSegwayofHawaii]

Thats so funny...just so we know from that physics thread...i pulled some statistics on speed of a cyclist and added some more...and i explained it using food at lunch today (dont ask i'm having a great day) and Alan loved it..and i included it for alans notes in the meeting...

pretty shnazzyyy..

off to save the gliders from mass destruction...:eek:

[DarthSegVator]

See the following:

http://www.draft.org/draft3/Portals/0/KerrArticles/People%20who%20have%20difficulty%20walking%20and%2 0the%20Segway-12_2_2007.pdf

This paper has some great safety info.

The DRAFT site (www.draft.org) has more on the Home page and in the Advocacy section.

[MzSegwayofHawaii]

Follow up from the meeting yesterday...

We did not meet with Mr. Flood, we actually met with the Head guy of the association (so this guy is above mr. flood)

Everything was extremely positive and he stated as I have already it's just a few 'snow birds' who happen to be irritated with absolutly everything that goes on. The presentation was amazing, he loved the physics that I included in there he is in FAVOR of the segway and...

will be purchasing one probably this month to go too and from work on:eek: he loved how we do the advertising/mobile marketing as well...

...guess you can't ban the seg when the head of the association has one and uses it to commute where the ban was set to take place:p

Glide on gliders...we are safe for now!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Segwaiian]

Yahooooooo!!!

That's great, Channelle. So was that Robert Finley, Chair of the Waikiki Neighborhood Board, that you met with?

Does that mean the newspaper story that quoted Walt Flood as saying he was almost hit by a Segway was inaccurate? There's a big difference between "a few snowbirds" and an irate Board member, even if he's outranked by the Chair.

It's great if Chair Finley is becoming one with Segwayism, but he's one vote on that Board. If Mr. Flood still has issues with Segways, we still have to take the May 13th Board meeting seriously. The Chair could be made to recuse himself from discussion and voting on the issue because Segway ownership, or intended ownership, could be considered a conflict of interest.

Aloha,
Roger

[quade]

Congratulations on the success of your meeting.

Did you ever end up doing any crash testing? If so, what were your results? Did you get video?

[Madsegs]

All the cities that have banned the use of segways in the EU have overturned laws permitting them. All of these cities had a problem with XT segways being used on the sidewalks. the laws did not take into consideration the off road models as they where not in production. Private XT´s and tours have used them on tight city sidewalk in Barcelona and Amsterdam. People ride the length of the city (on sidewalks) to get to a park or beachfront to use the XT´s causing a problem. XT´s are not permitted on the sidewalks at all and have more agressive software to allow you to loose contact with the ground and higher instant power for climbing without the limiter grumbling. bump a person with a michelin city slick and not much harm. Bump them with an XT (which is much wider) tyre and im sure it could harm them..........

This is most of the issues here, and there are some irresponsible people using them VERY fast weaving through people (BUT as we explained to the police-there are recless drivers, cyclists and joggers, this is why they are there.)

[Neelix]

All the cities that have banned the use of segways in the EU have overturned laws permitting them. All of these cities had a problem with XT segways being used on the sidewalks. the laws did not take into consideration the off road models as they where not in production. Private XT´s and tours have used them on tight city sidewalk in Barcelona and Amsterdam. People ride the length of the city (on sidewalks) to get to a park or beachfront to use the XT´s causing a problem. XT´s are not permitted on the sidewalks at all and have more agressive software to allow you to loose contact with the ground and higher instant power for climbing without the limiter grumbling. bump a person with a michelin city slick and not much harm. Bump them with an XT (which is much wider) tyre and im sure it could harm them..........

This is most of the issues here, and there are some irresponsible people using them VERY fast weaving through people (BUT as we explained to the police-there are recless drivers, cyclists and joggers, this is why they are there.)

This is exactly why I hate the X series. I think it's more trouble than it's worth.

I hate it because it makes PTs look dangerous, and because it alters people's perceptions as to how much the I series can handle. People see an X series machine and they think, "Ahh, so that one is for off road, that means this one over here can ONLY do pavement" which isn't true at all. It makes the I a tougher sell.

[MzSegwayofHawaii]

THE X SERIES HERE IN HAWAII IS NO PROBLEM...IN FACT THAT'S THE UNIT THATS A TOP SELLER...IT MAKES THE SEG LOOK COOL AND NOT 'WIMPY' LIKE SOMEONE TOLD ME THE OTHER DAY...

AS TO THE VIDEO WE'RE WORKING ON THAT FOR THE OTHER MEETING. HAHA I SCARED MY EMPLOYEES LAST NIGHT...TOLD THEM ALL TO LINE UP AND I WAS GOING TO RUN INTO EACH ONE OF THEM..LMAO I RODE UP AND DID A QUICK STOP IN FRONT OF THEM JUST FOR FUN AND IT WAS GREAT THEY THOUGHT I WAS SERIOUS:eek:

[Segwaiian]

Aloha! Thanks to everyone who was supportive or offered constructive comments when a member of the Waikiki Neighborhood Board voiced his concerns about Segway use on sidewalks in Waikiki. :D

The draft agenda that was disseminated for the Board's next meeting on May 13th does not include Segway use, although there are a couple of general agenda items where the issue could be brought up.

I e-mailed the Chair of the Waikiki Neighborhood Board, and his response was favorable. :)

Text of my e-mail to Robert Finley, Chair of the Board:

Mr. Robert Finley, Chair
Waikiki Neighborhood Board

Dear Mr. Finley:

I am forwarding the following e-mail message at Elwin Spray's recommendation.

I've been checking the Neighborhood Commission Office's web site for the agenda of the Waikiki Neighborhood Board's May 13th meeting, but it hasn't been posted yet.

As stated in the forwarded e-mail, I am a private Segway owner who has traveled by Segway in Waikiki on rare occasions. I support responsible Segway access to City sidewalks, as allowed by HRS 291C-134.5.

Opinions about Segways probably range along a continuum between those who believe Segways are completely safe and should be allowed everywhere, without restrictions, and those who feel they are dangerous and should not be allowed on sidewalks under any circumstances. The reality lies somewhere in between.

Tours by Segway of Hawaii (SOH) travel at low speeds under the supervision of experienced guides. While the learning curve for competent operation is very short, there are probably tour members who have never been on these machines before. SOH does rent Segways for unsupervised use, but only to people who provide documentation of prior training.

Private Segway owners are not an organized group and are probably difficult to place in a specific demographic category. In general, we are either people with mobility disabilities and/or those who care deeply about Hawaii's environment and have chosen to take personal action to fulfill our commitment. Some of us have replaced our cars with Segways. While Segway owners are likely to have a high regard for technology, I doubt that any of us view our Segways as toys or purely as recreational machines.

I believe that private Segway owners, as a class, believe that we operate our units in a responsible manner. Indeed, the performance capabilities of a Segway are such that it is unlikely to be a platform for reckless or irresponsible use.

However, regular use brings familiarity with the capabilities of a Segway. The average pedestrian has limited knowledge of the capabilities of a Segway or the behavior of Segway users. I understand that what an experienced Segway user knows to be safe operation may be perceived by a pedestrian to be reckless or dangerous.

Segway users are clearly a minority when compared to pedestrians and almost every other class of sidewalk user. It is important that both sides understand the other's issues. Responsible Segway operation and public education (which may be as simple as exposure to responsible Segway use) are important for meeting the needs of both sides.

I support Board action that condones continued sidewalk access to Segways as well as recommendations for responsible Segway operation. Hawaii's Electric Personal Assistive Mobility Device (EPAMD) law (HRS 291C-134.5) is a good framework on which to base Board discussion.

Aloha,
Roger

Text of his response:

Thank you for your e-mail.

The Waikiki Neighborhood Board has not taken an official position on Segway useage. My personal opinion is they are legal and those who have invested in purchase for personal use or professional use did so in good faith and are compliant with State Regulations.

The issue our Board is concerned about is sidewalk crowding along Kalakaua Avenue during peak pedestrian periods. We have supported City Legislation to prevent Street Performers from congesting Kalakaua and forcing pedestrians to use the street over the sidewalk (legislation was Vetoed by Mayor).

I have personally discussed this issue with HPD who have informed me that they feel every Segway they have observed is operating within the Law.

In any case the law you quoted is a State of Hawaii Statute which supersedes City Ordinance.

This issue will probably be discussed over the next few months but it would take a repeal of the current Law by the Legislature to have any impact on current Segway useage and I do not see that happening.

Thank you for conserving energy and do safely enjoy your Segway.

Robert Finley

Score one for our side. :):)

Aloha,
Roger

[pam]

What a nice response, and what a great, measured (need I say, well balanced :)), letter you sent.

Pam

[Segwaiian]

Thanks for the compliment, Pam. :D

Thanks, also, to SegwayChat for allowing me to use this as an electronic bulletin board to keep Hawaii gliders up to date. I started a Segway Social group, but it only has five members. Since the local dealership estimates that there are about 100 privately owned Segways in Hawaii, I'm sure many more lurk here.

I just spoke with Alan Rice, owner of Segway of Hawaii. He will be making a presentation on Segways at the Waikiki Neighborhood Board's meeting on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 in the auditorium of the Waikiki Community Center at 310 Paoakalani Avenue. Rick Egged, head of the Waikiki Improvement Association, the trade organization for the Waikiki business community, has graciously given Alan his 8:10PM slot on the agenda.

Come on out, gliders! :):):)

Aloha,
Roger

[Segwaiian]

Ah, the resurrection of another dormant thread. :rolleyes:

SegwayChat is still probably the most effective means of reaching Hawaii gliders. So, I'm posting this information here as well as on the Hawaii Segway Social message board (Lupekau O'mao o Hawaii).

The Waikiki Neighborhood Board met on May 13, 2008. Segway use on Waikiki sidewalks was discussed as an informational item. No action was taken with regards to limiting Segway access to sidewalks, as that would require a change in the State EPAMD law.

Alan Rice, the owner of Segway of Hawaii, gave a 5-minute presentation about Segways and his commercial tour operation and spent time after that for Q&A. He handled the interaction well.

Most of the opposition was about Segways being used to market Waikiki restaurants. The concerns included Segways obstructing access to crosswalks and promoting alcohol. An elderly woman gave her account of being rear ended while walking on a sidewalk and being thrown to the sidewalk by a marketing Segway.

Alan said that some of the Segways involved may not belong to Segway of Hawaii. He promised he would investigate if his machines are involved with alcohol promotion and would stop such promotion if it's occurring.

I had e-mailed the Board Chair earlier, and he said that the Board's mission is to preserve safe sidewalks for pedestrians, not to single out Segways.

I stayed around after the meeting, with Signorina E. Pam Dispostivo, so attendees could see and touch a Segway up close and to answer any questions. Everyone who came up to me said that they had no problems with the supervised tours or with non-commercial Segway use by private citizens.

AND NOW THAT I'VE BLATHERED ON, HERE'S THE MAIN MESSAGE OF THIS POST. :D

The meeting was recorded on video and will be broadcast this evening by 'Olelo (public access TV) at 9:00 PM on cable channel 54. For time reference, the meeting started a little after 7:00 PM and Alan Rice's presentation started around 8:25 PM. There were comments about Segways prior to Alan's presentation, but they were brought back up during his Q&A.

Aloha,
Roger

[Segwaiian]

Sorry, folks. :o:o:o

I just checked the 'Olelo programming schedule (http://olelo.org) and it looks like the April 8, 2008 Waikiki Neighborhood Board meeting is being broadcast tonight, not this past Tuesday's meeting with the Segway discussion.

I'll Tivo it, just in case, but I'm expecting that I'll be deleting last month's meeting.

I did take notes of the discussion. If anyone wants them, please PM me and I'll send them to you.

Aloha,
Roger

[Segwaiian]

For interested Hawaii gliders, the May 13, 2008 Waikiki Neighborhood Board meeting, at which Segway access to Waikiki sidewalks was discussed, will be broadcast on Olelo public access TV, cable channel 54, tomorrow (May 23, 2008) at 9:00 PM.

Alan Rice, owner of Segway of Hawaii, made a presentation about Segways and his commercial operations starting about 85 minutes into the meeting.

Aloha,
Roger

[MzSegwayofHawaii]

thanks...i'll set my tivo to record this. I was present during the meeting however listening from a very nervous point of view standing outside the window...i only heard bits and pieces.