We Came, We Glided, We Were Kicked Out

[Segwaiian]

This is what I posted last night on the Lupekau O'mao o Hawaii message board at SegwaySocial:

"Aloha! Had a good weekend?

LOH went to Kapiolani Park today in support of a local glider who took part in the AIDS charity walk.

OK, it was just me. I can't identify other members, and LOH is waiting for others to join us.

So, I got there shortly before the opening ceremonies concluded and didn't see other Segways. More on that later.

I glided along the event route with red ribbons on my helmet for the cause. People were having a good time and the weather was nice. There was even a band playing at the halfway point.

When I got back to the Bandstand, park security rolled up on a bike and informed me, in a nice way, that Segways aren't allowed in the park; I would have to stay on the sidewalk. Maybe our other glider was warned before I arrived and left his i2 in his van."

Kapiolani Park is a wonderful 201 acres bordering Waikiki Beach. King Kalakaua gave royal lands for the park to the people of Hawaii in 1877 and named it after his wife, Queen Kapiolani. The Republic of Hawaii placed the park into a Public Charitable Trust in 1896. Among other things, it has many open grassy areas used for soccer, picnics, kite flying, etc.

For you Segway Polo fans, there was an actual polo field in the park when I was growing up.

OK, history lesson's over, folks. :D

So, this guy who informed me that Segways are not allowed in the park was not a police officer, but carried himself like park, or event, security. I didn't think to ask for an ID or other details. I know that the park has different rules from our other municipal parks and that it has appointed trustees (Our City Council) who govern its Preservation Society under the Trust.

I suppose, according to the letter of our local EPAMD law, I'm only allowed to glide on sidewalks, bike paths, or (,with permission,) private property. So, Segways are not legally allowed off sidewalks in our parks.

That sure can be a pain, sometimes. :mad: I don't know if gliders with mobility problems who have disability IDs or parking passes are cut some slack.

I guess I should be happy that I'm, at least, allowed on sidewalks.

Aloha,
Roger

[jryan]

This is what I posted last night on the Lupekau O'mao o Hawaii message board at SegwaySocial:

"Aloha! Had a good weekend?

LOH went to Kapiolani Park today in support of a local glider who took part in the AIDS charity walk.

OK, it was just me. I can't identify other members, and LOH is waiting for others to join us.

So, I got there shortly before the opening ceremonies concluded and didn't see other Segways. More on that later.

I glided along the event route with red ribbons on my helmet for the cause. People were having a good time and the weather was nice. There was even a band playing at the halfway point.

When I got back to the Bandstand, park security rolled up on a bike and informed me, in a nice way, that Segways aren't allowed in the park; I would have to stay on the sidewalk. Maybe our other glider was warned before I arrived and left his i2 in his van."

Kapiolani Park is a wonderful 201 acres bordering Waikiki Beach. King Kalakaua gave royal lands for the park to the people of Hawaii in 1877 and named it after his wife, Queen Kapiolani. The Republic of Hawaii placed the park into a Public Charitable Trust in 1896. Among other things, it has many open grassy areas used for soccer, picnics, kite flying, etc.

For you Segway Polo fans, there was an actual polo field in the park when I was growing up.

OK, history lesson's over, folks. :D

So, this guy who informed me that Segways are not allowed in the park was not a police officer, but carried himself like park, or event, security. I didn't think to ask for an ID or other details. I know that the park has different rules from our other municipal parks and that it has appointed trustees (Our City Council) who govern its Preservation Society under the Trust.

I suppose, according to the letter of our local EPAMD law, I'm only allowed to glide on sidewalks, bike paths, or (,with permission,) private property. So, Segways are not legally allowed off sidewalks in our parks.

That sure can be a pain, sometimes. :mad: I don't know if gliders with mobility problems who have disability IDs or parking passes are cut some slack.

I guess I should be happy that I'm, at least, allowed on sidewalks.

Aloha,
Roger


This is very unfortunate Roger!! Regardless, I will wish good vibes for adequate legislation in this matter on the way of Hawaii! Have you tried e-mailing your senator/congressperson! I think (and may be wrong) but it sounds like this law is a little outdated. Sometimes, especially from a Segway owner (for the sheer reason that often times it means a potential campaign donation in the future), they may be willing to look into some changes if the issue is brought up. I could be wrong, but hey, it may be worth a shot!!

Jeremy Ryan

[KSagal]

You should be polite, but maybe ask what rule specifically was he talking about, with regard to segways.

You may find that he did not have one in mind, or that the rule said motorized vehicles, or some other generic term...

Then you also should know the wording and definition of the EPAMD laws that apply. Often they state that a segway (or EPAMD) is not a scooter, or not a vehicle, or whatever... (It is often good to have a copy)

Again, I do not suggest an altercation, but you may find that their first assumption is that they do not belong, because they do not see them there, and once questioned, they will see that there actually is no rule against segways...

Of course, you may or they may see it differently.

[Segwaiian]

I appreciate any and all specific comments that can be used with those entities or people in positions to affect policy or change laws regarding access issues.

However, I prefer to chose when and who I go into battle against. :)

Others have posted in various threads about their frustration with dealing with police officers who hassle them because the officers were unfamiliar with the EPAMD laws in their jurisdictions. I doubt I would get anywhere with a field-level security person, and I doubt he would have considered it educational.

As I wrote in my first post, the park has different rules from our other municipal parks and it has appointed trustees (Our City Council) who govern its Preservation Society under the Trust.

The "No A, B, C, etc." sign posted at Kapiolani Park includes "No motor vehicles." This restriction was not listed on the sign at another park I passed by later.

Here's the first part of Hawaii's EPAMD Law:
"[§291C-134.5] Electric personal assistive mobility devices; restrictions. (a) An electric personal assistive mobility device may be operated on the sidewalks, at a speed no greater than eight miles per hour, and bicycle paths of the State."

I didn't want to waste space with the entire statute; it can be found on segway.com. It is silent on Segways as "pedestrians" or motor vehicles and does not specifically state that Segways are allowed on park grounds.

I actually carry copies of the Hawaii's EPAMD statute in my bag after a couple of pedestrians told me I didn't belong on sidewalks soon after I began gliding. Fortunately, I haven't had to pass any out after these early interactions. Giving a copy to this security guard would not have helped, given the language of our law and the wording of the park sign. We could discuss "may" versus "shall" in this forum, but at the user-enforcer level, it's unlikely to fly.

I do agree with Jeremy that the language could use some improvement.

I'm told that our EPAMD Law was adopted because the local dealer brought Segways to our State Capitol and let our legislators glide around the grounds. Several of them apparently had very blissful smiles on their faces as they glided. Unfortunately, Hawaii now has one of the highest rates of pedestrian deaths per capita in the nation. If we go to the Legislature to have language changed, we quite probably will face opposition (Advocacy groups, voters, etc.) and could end up with more restrictive language than our current law. That opposition represents more votes than Segway users and funds PACs.

BTW, I'm not implying that AARP, etc., are going to argue that Segways are going to kill pedestrians if the Legislature allows us in more places. But, we all know that some advocacy groups for pedestrians' rights view Segways with suspicion.

But, that doesn't mean I'm going quietly into the night. Rather than engage security guards, I plan to make inquiries at the administrative level about Segways in our municipal and state parks. Change at the policy level could be just as effective as legislation.

If not for all gliders, at least for those with certified disabilities.

I welcome constructive suggestions, people. Please. :):)

Aloha,
Roger

[JohnM]

You should be polite, but maybe ask what rule specifically was he talking about, with regard to segways.

You may find that he did not have one in mind, or that the rule said motorized vehicles, or some other generic term...

Then you also should know the wording and definition of the EPAMD laws that apply. Often they state that a segway (or EPAMD) is not a scooter, or not a vehicle, or whatever... (It is often good to have a copy)

Again, I do not suggest an altercation, but you may find that their first assumption is that they do not belong, because they do not see them there, and once questioned, they will see that there actually is no rule against segways...

Of course, you may or they may see it differently.

So lets take a look a Hawaii's laws (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol05_Ch0261-0319/HRS0291C/HRS_0291C-0001.htm):

"Electric personal assistive mobility device" means a self-balancing, two-wheeled, non-tandem-wheeled device, designed to transport only one person, using an electric propulsion system that limits the maximum speed of the device to twelve and a half miles per hour or less.Pretty standard definition.

"Pedestrian" means any person afoot, in an invalid chair, or in a vehicle propelled by a person afoot. Unless you want to make the argument that a Segway is an invalid chair, looks like a Segway is not a pedestrian.

"Vehicle" means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a roadway or highway, including mopeds and bicycles, but excluding toy bicycles, devices other than bicycles moved by human power, and devices used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks. Every device? Check. By which any person or property is or may be transported? Check. Upon a roadway or highway? Hmmm, Segways are limited to sidewalks and bike paths, right?

"Sidewalk" means that portion of a street between the curb lines, or the lateral lines of a roadway, and the adjacent property lines, intended for use of pedestrians. Oh, cr@p, sidewalks are a portion of a street. (And a paved walkway thru a park really isn't a sidewalk anyway.) Since there is no exclusion for EPAMDs, just toy bicycles and other human powered non-bikes, looks like Segways fit the definition of a vehicle.

"Motor vehicle" means every vehicle which is self-propelled and every vehicle which is propelled by electric power but not operated upon rails but excludes a moped. Propelled by electric power? Check. Again, no exclusions for EPAMDs, just mopeds. Looks like you're a motor vehicle in the eyes of the law.

Wipeout, big kahuna. Maybe its time to start writing your state legislators.

[GlennO]

You should keep your inquires limited to THAT park only. Also, unless you are disabled, I wouldn't inquire about that because they might assume that you are disabled, and possibly have "a whole new set of rules" for disabled people.

You probably missed it, but I had a run-in with a local mall cop here in Waianae. After gliding all over our mall for about 2 years this guy (who was new) decided that I was illegal. He pointed to the sign prohibiting bicycles, skates, skateboards and so on, so I had to tell him that I was disabled. He quickly changed his mind!

The funny part was that the ONLY reason I was caught was because my usual parking space was being repaved!

Anyway, tread lightly! They must have an office down there somewhere.

Glenn

[Segwaiian]

You should keep your inquires limited to THAT park only. Also, unless you are disabled, I wouldn't inquire about that because they might assume that you are disabled, and possibly have "a whole new set of rules" for disabled people.

Anyway, tread lightly! They must have an office down there somewhere.

Glenn

Yup, that's the plan. Instead of making an inquiry with the Department of Parks & Recreation, I'm planning to make contact with the Preservation Society for Kapiolani Park.

What I don't want to do is something for my own selfish WANTS that makes life more difficult for people with disabilities who NEED accommodation for access.

By a quirk of procreation, I had a nephew with Duchenne's muscular dystrophy who was the same age as me, until he died in his early 20s. I grew up pushing his wheelchair everywhere.

If it's OK with you, I'll PM you to bounce my ideas off you before taking any action.

Aloha,
Roger

P.S.: I've only been on the forum for five months. Sorry about your experience with the mall Nazis. Before I tried gliding at Ala Moana Center, I e-mailed the mall and found out that I have to leave my i2 at a perimeter bike rack unless I want to drag it by hand to a central rack.

[Segwaiian]

JohnM,

For clarification, I didn't post that I was on a paved walkway in this park, as you assumed. The park involved has sidewalks around its perimeter but no defined walkways, paved or otherwise, within the park grounds. OK, there is a short crushed coral road between two stately rows of ironwood trees left over from the days of royalty that really goes nowhere. I was stationary on the grass when the security guard approached me. Again, he was quite polite.


<Boundary><-----------------------Street-----------------------><Boundary>
<Boundary><Sidewalk><Curb><-----Roadway-----><Curb>Sidewalk><Boundary>

From HRS291C-1 (These are legal definitions used in the statutes, not the laws themselves):

"Street" means the entire width between boundary lines of every way publicly maintained when any part thereof is ope to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel.

"Sidewalk" means that portion of a street between the curb lines, or the lateral lines of a roadway, and the adjacent property lines, intended for use of pedestrians.

"Vehicle" means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a roadway or highway, including mopeds and bicycles, but excluding toy bicycles, devices other than bicycles moved by human power, and devices used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks.

"Motor vehicle" means every vehicle which is self-propelled and every vehicle which is propelled by electric power but not operated upon rails but excludes a moped.

"Electric personal assistive mobility device" means... Well, I don't have to state this again, do I?

Again, these are legal definitions that are used in the statutes governing Hawaii's Statewide Traffic Code. They are not the actual laws pertaining to the operation of automobiles, bicycles, Segways, etc. If the language of the definitions and the language of the statutes describing the actual laws are not in concordance, the definitions do not have precedence over the actual laws.

Now, here's the Hawaii EPAMD Law:

HRS291C-134.5 Electric personal assistive mobility devices; restrictions. (a) An electric personal assistive mobility device may be operated on the sidewalks, at a speed no greater than eight miles per hour, and bicycle paths of the State. The sale of consumer models of electric personal assistive mobility devices in the State shall be limited to those models operated by a key that can set the maximum forward speed at no more than eight miles per hour.
Restrictions (b) through (f) pertain to operator age, interactions with pedestrians on foot and those using mobility aids, required safety equipment, and penalties for reckless operation.

OK, that sets the stage. Here we go.

Sidewalks are part of the street, but are not part of the roadway.

Vehicles, by the broad definition, and motor vehicles, as a more limited definition, operate upon roadways. The definition includes bicycles. It excludes tricycles and unicycles, which means they operate on the part of the street that doesn't include roadways, i.e., sidewalks.

The statutes on the actual Bicycle Laws allow operation of bicycles upon sidewalks with specific restrictions. This is an example of how the actual statute takes precedence over the legal definitions.

The EPAMD Law restricts Segways to sidewalks. We (Segway gliders) are not allowed to operate upon the roadway. The sidewalk is part of the street, but is not part of the roadway. Let's not get hung up on crosswalks, please.

Therefore, Segways do not meet the legal definition of vehicles, much less motor vehicles.

So, what are we (Segways, not their owners)?

Segways, by the legal definitions and statutes, are Devices. Not vehicles, not motor vehicles, not pedestrians, not automobiles, not bicycles. Devices.

So, in Hawaii, it's:
DIFFERENT DEVICES
DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE STREET
DIFFERENT RULES

The Segway rests.

Disclaimer: Each State is governed by its own peculiar laws and regulations. Each reader of this post should make her/his own decision on what works in their own jurisdiction based upon their own due diligence. The discussion presented above does not pretend to apply to any State other than the State of Paradise. ;)

Somewhere in her little patch of the 50th State, between the water heater and the washing machine, Signorina E. Pam Dispositivo calls out: "Hmmm, mm, mmmm..."

Translation: "You mean...I am not a pedestrian? And, I am not a vehicle? And, and, I am not a motor vehicle? I am a device? I AM A DEVICE!!!" :D

Hope you had a great Earth Day. :):):)

Now, to paraphrase Jeff Spicoli, I wonder if the waves are still tasty? ;)

Aloha,
Roger

[mreisner]

I've been to Hawaii every year for the past 9 years (I'm almost kama'aina), and I've never seen a security person in Kapiolani Park. Not even for different events I've been to. The park is large enough for everyone. Your situation blows my mind!

[Segwaiian]

Hi, Maria. Welcome to SegwayChat!

Yup, it sure is a big park, with tons of space. The ironic thing is that, when you're doing something like a charity walk, with hundreds of people on the sidewalk, it's actually safer for the glider and makes fewer pedestrians uncomfortable (OK, folks, I know they shouldn't have to be, but it's human nature) if the glider's on the grass, in from the sidewalk.

I suppose he could have been event security, but then I would think he wouldn't have a clue whether Segways are allowed in the park or not. The way he was dressed, he could ride right by park users without anyone realizing he's security.

Like Glenn O wrote, I need to be careful when making my inquiry on this. Although, by the letter of the law, the warning sign was silent regarding Segways (Since we're not motor vehicles), I don't want to antagonize a bureaucrat and jeopardize access for gliders with disabilities.

Aloha,
Roger

[Segwaiian]

Update on the Kapiolani Park Segway ban in Honolulu:

I just spoke with Channelle (AKA MzSegwayofHawaii), manager of our local dealership.

She said that Segways are allowed in this park. There are some Waikiki "Ambassadors" who don't know the score, apparently. She's spoken with the park director, who is cool with Segways. Sounds like one of the park's Board members just doesn't like anything. If it's the City Council member I'm thinking of, that person seems to be sucking lemons constantly, and not as a substitute for lemonade, if you know what I mean. :p

Channelle offered Segway of Hawaii as a place where individual gliders can report on hassles/incidents, or we can refer the person we're dealing with to SoH.

This is great way to have the dealer involved with local gliders, excellent PR.

Will post a more detailed report on the Lupekau O'mao message board at Segway Social, since the details are specific to local gliding.

Kind of a happy ending, or maybe a promising beginning... :)

Aloha,
Roger