Update: Segways and the Caltrain

[apollo]

This was originally a long story, but is pertinent to the SF Bay Area segway users. So, I'll just share the interesting bits with you all here. Today, I tried to get on the Caltrain in Sunnyvale, Ca with my black I2. I was going to board the bike car, and lock it up on one of the bike racks inside, but was denied. I argued my case with the conductor, who told me to call the Caltrain's 800 number.
So, I called them and was routed to a guy named Matt Seiger who works with the Accessible Transit Services Dept at Caltrain. Matt told me that the policy on segways and the Caltrain was not written yet, but that Caltrain had purchased their very own segway and was nearing the end of their trials. He told me they are leaning towards allowing Segways, but only for disabled persons. He told me that the policy, as it looks like it will be now, will be that a segway rider will be asked if they use their segway because of a disability. If the rider answers "Yes" they will be allowed to board the train with the segway, no placard, registration, or proof required. But, he's not sure of any of this will be in the final policy. He's not writing the policy. This is just what he has heard through the grapevine.
However, Matt told me that the final segway+caltrain trial was set for February 12, and that likely their policy would not go into effect until March.
So, lets hope they start allowing people with 'disabilities' to board the Caltrain soon.

[polo_pro]

Great new! Is this an opportune time for someone from DRAFT to contact Caltrains as they near the point where a decision is made? A little ADA education at the right time can go a long way.

ps - Rep points for you Apollo!

[wwhopper]

Then Segs should also be allowed on too, and not just for disabled users, but for all users.

So you able bodied Cali gliders should make a stand for Segway use on your train system.

There is no reason the Segway should be labled as only a handicap users device. Especially in this day in age when everyone wants public transportation used more, and autos used less.

The Segway is the perfect mate to public transport, it truly bridges that last mile (like the name of the blog) it gets people to leave their car at home instead of the cal train parking lot, and on the other end it gives them more useability to go more places.

[JohnM]

If bikes are allowed on the train......Then Segs should also be allowed on too, and not just for disabled users, but for all users.

Be careful there Will. You're coming awfully close to equating bikes and Segways. Do you really want to make that case?

[polo_pro]

Be careful there Will. You're coming awfully close to equating bikes and Segways. Do you really want to make that case?

I think as a last mile solution (and how they're treated by mass transit organizations), it's acceptable to compare the two. If you want to extend the comparison beyond that, then we'll get into a morass and guarantee this thread lives a long and torturous life.

[JohnM]

I think as a last mile solution (and how they're treated by mass transit organizations), it's acceptable to compare the two. If you want to extend the comparison beyond that, then we'll get into a morass and guarantee this thread lives a long and torturous life.
Sorry polo, but there is no way to equate how mass transit organizations treat a 25 lb bike compared to a 105 lb Segway. (Just try picking up your Segway with one hand and carrying it on your shoulder.) If you want to use mass transit then make a good case for it. It shouldn't be too difficult to round up the evidence and justification you need. But using the argument that Segways are the same as bikes is lame, lazy and insincere. Cyclists made their case for inclusion. Now you have to make your own case.

On the other hand, maybe Segways should be allowed on trains, but only if their owners are wearing spandex.;)

[Isidore]

A case can easily be made on the basis of area/space taken in the train car: If you think of three segways parked next to each other you can see that they will take up no more space than three bicycles. So what is the difference? The only difference is the mind set of the train company. Do they restrict how much luggage you can take? I doubt it! On the London tube, especially the line going to the airport, you see many tourists with huge roller suitcases that you could easily fit a seg into and no one bats an eyelid. Yet if you try and take a Seg you get into complicated arguments about which lines and at which times yo can take a bike! Put the seg in a 'modesty box' and it is then luggage and no issue. That is just not sane

[JohnM]

A case can easily be made on the basis of area/space taken in the train car: If you think of three segways parked next to each other you can see that they will take up no more space than three bicycles. So what is the difference? The only difference is the mind set of the train company. Do they restrict how much luggage you can take? I doubt it! On the London tube, especially the line going to the airport, you see many tourists with huge roller suitcases that you could easily fit a seg into and no one bats an eyelid. Yet if you try and take a Seg you get into complicated arguments about which lines and at which times yo can take a bike! Put the seg in a 'modesty box' and it is then luggage and no issue. That is just not sane

You're still making your case based on what bicycles are allowed to do. If you can't make your case without dragging bikes into the issue, then you're in trouble.

This is like your kid coming home and saying, "Billy's parents let him stay up all night playing video games, so why can't I?" That argument just doesn't work in my household.

[Sal]

This is like your kid coming home and saying, "Billy's parents let him stay up all night playing video games, so why can't I?" That argument just doesn't work in my household.

John, I don't think that's a fair or astute assessment of what's going on here.

I think bringing bicycles into the issue is not the same as equating Segways and bicycles. They are indeed different, but I think the same kind(s) of people would use them. People who are interested in using alternate transport and mass transit to get places.

Be that as it may. Isidore, below, made a good point about luggage, and what else is allowed on the rail cars (on the London Tube). Maybe the burden of proof should be why Segways shouldn't be allowed in the first place?

Do they restrict how much luggage you can take? I doubt it! On the London tube, especially the line going to the airport, you see many tourists with huge roller suitcases that you could easily fit a seg into and no one bats an eyelid.

Furthermore, since bicycles ARE allowed, I think it is very fair to use the same standard for inclusion for bicycles to defend the Segwayer's right to bring his glider aboard. Why not? This is NOT a slippery slope in the least (if that's what the powers that be are afraid of).

I am a firm believer in cycling organizations working together with SEGs as well as other alt-transportation organizations to achieve similar means, within reason.

Trying to set distinctly different standards when there already exists infrastructure (a Bike-specific) car, is short-sighted and ignorant.

-Sal

[Isidore]

I absolutely agree with Sal. I am also a cyclist and the issue that I see is that bicycles have rights on public transport not based on any rational argument but more on historical precedent and our common cultural puritan Judeo-Christian ethic- cyclist suffer so they are holy/ good. Provided Segs and bicycles are equally securely tied down, as a pedestrian I would much rather trip over a Seg than a bike, I won't get chain lub on my trousers or tear them or my shin on a metal pedal. I think the underling issue, other than the puritan work ethic, is that transport authorities fear that they will suddenly be faced with train /bus loads of Segways whereas the number of cyclists is limited to those wishing to enjoy the 'pleasures' of cycling (great, but clearly not for everyone). One solution is to charge a fee for items over a certain size but it seems nonsensical to have rules depending on what something IS rather than how much space it takes. When not Segwaying I commute on a Moulton bicycle which does not fold but splits into two parts. On some tube lines I cannot take a bike at all, but if I split my bike in two it ceases to be a bicycle and becomes just 'luggage'! I can see the argument about a bike being an obstruction but if you put a suitcase on a Segway, how is it different from a sack truck with a bag on it?

[sholloway]

I bet they'd let you on with some hand trucks loaded with bags, they'd probably also let you on with empty hand trucks. I think the Segway, when turned off, should be compared to a large rolling suitcase or something that holds suitcases. I had one convention center let me know that I couldn't ROLL it, while turned off, across their carpet. When several others walked by with 2 wheeled rolling things I told them I would go in the back door because I didn't have time to point out how completely illogical they were. If I were trying to negotiate with them I would suggest that Segways might be ridden to the train but not ON the train. Then it should just be like a big wheeled travel trunk.

[JohnM]

Trying to set distinctly different standards when there already exists infrastructure (a Bike-specific) car, is short-sighted and ignorant. Yep. Exactly. Bike-specific.

Seems to me that the ignorance stems from the fact that the general (non-Segway owning) public can't determine when a Segway is bike-like and when it is a totally unique device, unlike anything else on wheels. Since the determination can only be made on a case by case basis by someone who has 'gotten it', i.e. experienced a Segway epiphany, its likely to remain a bone of contention for a long, long time.

I'm outta here.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/19/162483945_9b303e237f.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/217/502922193_af7c485906.jpg?v=0

[Sal]

I bet they'd let you on with some hand trucks loaded with bags, they'd probably also let you on with empty hand trucks. I think the Segway, when turned off, should be compared to a large rolling suitcase or something that holds suitcases. I had one convention center let me know that I couldn't ROLL it, while turned off, across their carpet. When several others walked by with 2 wheeled rolling things I told them I would go in the back door because I didn't have time to point out how completely illogical they were. If I were trying to negotiate with them I would suggest that Segways might be ridden to the train but not ON the train. Then it should just be like a big wheeled travel trunk.

Since no minds are made up for use of the Bike-Car for Segways, then a Segway which is OFF can be construed to be "luggage." which can then be rolled onto a regular car. Baby Stollers, Suitcases, folks with large bags of sporting equipment (hockey, baseball, etc)... may all fall into the same category.

Seems to me that the ignorance stems from the fact that the general (non-Segway owning) public can't determine when a Segway is bike-like and when it is a totally unique device, unlike anything else on wheels. Since the determination can only be made on a case by case basis by someone who has 'gotten it', i.e. experienced a Segway epiphany, its likely to remain a bone of contention for a long, long time.

I think Segwayers will have to be "ambassadors" for a very long time. People in charge of municipalities owe it to themselves to experience the Segway, as well as other "modern marvels," so they can remain progressive and abreast of upcoming requests for change and compromise.

-Sal

[wwhopper]

Be careful there Will. You're coming awfully close to equating bikes and Segways. Do you really want to make that case?

Bike and Segways are different, but they are also the same in some respects. Both are machines that move people. You can say weight is an issue with the Seg, but you can say size and the fact that a bike has so many exposed parts, gears, pedals etc, that can cause injury or damage too.

In this case they should be treated pretty much the same, not unlike how we use them on the Washington's Metro Subway System. Bikes and Segways are allowed on in non rush hours and at the ends of the cars. You are suppose to walk both through the station, and use the elevators to move them up and down to the platforms. Though WMATA does offer disabled users (as they should) the opportunity to use the Segway at any time, though they require a sticker.

I have talked to many proffessionals in the mass tranisit industry and they all see the Segway (as well as the bike) as a way to get more people to use the light rail systems. One told me that by 7 am the parking lots fill up at the stations, and from then on the rail cars are almost empty, because people who can't find a place to park, then proceed to their destination in their cars. While with a bike or Segway, they can go to the station, get on the train, and then get off and go on their way.

At this point in too many people using the system at once with a Segway or a bike is much like your picture (taken when a large group gathers to use the system for an event.) At this point that is not happening, but no doubt would happen in the future, and transportation planners should be thinking ahead and planning for that.

Mass transit should be open for all users, and not exclude one group over the other.

This is a good thread because DC SEG will be at the Maryland State House next week for a day long summit on alternatives to the car.

[JohnM]

Bike and Segways are different, but they are also the same in some respects. Both are machines that move people. You can say weight is an issue with the Seg, but you can say size and the fact that a bike has so many exposed parts, gears, pedals etc, that can cause injury or damage too.

In this case they should be treated pretty much the same, not unlike how we use them on the Washington's Metro Subway System. Bikes and Segways are allowed on in non rush hours and at the ends of the cars. You are suppose to walk both through the station, and use the elevators to move them up and down to the platforms. Though WMATA does offer disabled users (as they should) the opportunity to use the Segway at any time, though they require a sticker.

I have talked to many proffessionals in the mass tranisit industry and they all see the Segway (as well as the bike) as a way to get more people to use the light rail systems. One told me that by 7 am the parking lots fill up at the stations, and from then on the rail cars are almost empty, because people who can't find a place to park, then proceed to their destination in their cars. While with a bike or Segway, they can go to the station, get on the train, and then get off and go on their way.

At this point in too many people using the system at once with a Segway or a bike is much like your picture (taken when a large group gathers to use the system for an event.) At this point that is not happening, but no doubt would happen in the future, and transportation planners should be thinking ahead and planning for that.

Mass transit should be open for all users, and not exclude one group over the other.

This is a good thread because DC SEG will be at the Maryland State House next week for a day long summit on alternatives to the car.

Will,
I'm in total agreement that mass transit should be open to all, but I do have to take exception with your point that currently the full bike capacity of Caltrain is not happening. The source for this photo

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/19/162483945_9b303e237f.jpg

posted in his blog (http://www.cyclelicio.us/labels/california.html) on Dec 4 2007 that " I took the below photo in the summer of 2006 -- the bike car now looks like this in winter 2007." He also references a story in the San Jose Mercury News headlined, " (http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_7632300)Caltrain turning away some cyclists as rail ridership surges". (http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_7632300) And its not just bikes: The whole system is near full capacity at rush hours and there is no easy fix.

So, if there's no way to increase bike capacity without removing paying seats and no space for Segways without bumping the current bike passengers, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a big change in current Caltrain policy.

I'm also mystified why any Segway user would want to ride in the bike car, traveling next to people sitting in pools of their own perspiration and the aisles awash with sweat. Eeeeewwww.

[wwhopper]

I'm in total agreement that mass transit should be open to all, but I do have to take exception with your point that currently the full bike capacity of Caltrain is not happening. The source for this photo

This is good - it shows there is a demand for combining mass transit with other ways of moving people around.

Caltrain turning away some cyclists as rail ridership surges".[/URL] And its not just bikes: The whole system is near full capacity at rush hours and there is no easy fix..

Sadly mass transit systems are having this issue all across the country, especially as fuel prices rise, and more people are tired of sitting in traffic on their way to and from work.

So, if there's no way to increase bike capacity without removing paying seats and no space for Segways without bumping the current bike passengers, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a big change in current policy..

Actually they should be doing more, by getting more cars outfitted to meet the needs of their customers. Urban and transportation planners have been urging that for years. Sadly the bean counters have been reducing the number of train cars.

Here in Washington DC, there is a big move afoot to make trains larger by adding cars so they can add capacity, it is just that there are not the supporting funds coming in from the local agencies to support it. The fare riders pay, pays only a small amount of the cost of mass transit.

I'm also mystified why any Segway user would want to ride in the bike car, traveling next to people sitting in pools of their own perspiration and the aisles awash with sweat. Eeeeewwww.

I have to agree with you there.. I find it hard to believe that you would say that, as avid a bicylist as you are.

But on the other hand there are some pretty hot bicylists out there, that, even sweaty, would be nice to sit next to. Though I have to say from my time serving on the DC Bike Council, they have very little of interst to talk about other than bikes.

And one of the nice things about the segway is you can wear your suit and not need to stop and use the showers and change to be presentable in a proffessional enviornment.

[quade]

But using the argument that Segways are the same as bikes is lame, lazy and insincere.

Uh . . .

Same (rail)Roads
Same Rules
Same Rights?

[jryan]

In Madison we have the Metro Bus system. I have spoken with members of the county transportation board just asking questions and they told me that a Segway would be allowed. In fact the buses even lower to curb level and have a ramp so you could glide right on and back off again. Do any other cities have this on a bus form?


Jeremy Ryan

[JohnM]

Uh . . .

Same (rail)Roads
Same Rules
Same Rights?

Sure.

But equating my bike to your Segway? No way. No more than I'd equate my bike to a pair of shoes, a wheelchair or a skateboard. Everyone deserves to be accommodated for their differences, not their sameness. One size does not fit all.

[quade]

Sure.

But equating my bike to your Segway? No way. No more than I'd equate my bike to a pair of shoes, a wheelchair or a skateboard. Everyone deserves to be accommodated for their differences, not their sameness. One size does not fit all.

But equating your bike to a car makes perfect sense?

If you agree that they should have the same rules and rights, then who cares if some people think the devices are or are not exactly equal? Who cares if one person's device weighs 18 pounds and another 105? In the grand scheme of rail transport, that's actually a miniscule difference back in the baggage car. What difference does it actually make that one has a set of wheels in tandem and another side-by-side?

As long as the same rights and rules apply to both; who loses?

[Eric Payne]

... (a)s long as the same rights and rules apply to both; who loses?

According to the Hitchhiker's Guide, the correct answer to any question is 42.

It's just that the question may be wrong.

[Llarry]

42 is the answer to "the ultimate question of Life, the Universe, and Everything".

Deep Thought then designed the computer which could calculate the question for that answer, which came back as "What do you get when you multiply 6 by 9?", so something seems to have gotten corrupted along the way...

BTW, that calculation does in fact work in base 13....

[apollo]

Getting back to the original intended topic...
So, my contact at CalTrain said he would only be working there through Feb. 19th, and with the final trial going on Feb 12th, that leaves not-much-time to chime in to the CalTrain Accessible Transit Services Dept (800-660-4287, 510-817-1717, or 650-508-6200 - ask for that dept.) to share your argument as to why anyone with a segway should be allowed.

Secondly, it needs to be noted that CalTrain only really fills up during RUSH HOUR, and when I was riding yesterday (11am-2pm) there was, maybe 5 or 6 people with Bikes on the trains. I think the policy should be segways are allowed on bike cars, provided they have a lock, and are not traveling between the hours of 7am to 9:30am and 4pm to 6pm.
JohnM, you know, a CalTrain is like any other train. People can move between cars pretty easy. And, I think a comment like, people sitting in pools of their own perspiration and the aisles awash with sweat is a bit stereotypical. Very much the same attitude is held by those who think Segway owners are 'just rich and lazy.'

Will W. and Polo, you both have had some good input with this thread. I would like you to share your posts with CalTrain. I also agree with Isidore's post about bike being allowed simply because of historical precedent and not rational arguments, and a Segway not being allowed because its new, misunderstood, etc. (Same thing when discussing smoking tobacco vs marijuana, but thats for another site.)

[JohnM]

But equating your bike to a car makes perfect sense?
Well, quade,
http://forums.segwaychat.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10100/Same-tiny.gifi
is not something I made up. Its the law.

The law here in New Hampshire
Every person propelling a vehicle by human power or riding a bicycle shall have all of the rights and be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of any other vehicle under the rules of the road, except as provided in paragraph II and as to special regulations in this subdivision and except as to those provisions which by their nature can have no application.The law there in California
Every person riding a bicycle upon a highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division, including, but not limited to,provisions concerning driving under the influence of alcoholic beverages or drugs, and by Division 10 (commencing with Section 20000), Section 27400, Division 16.7 (commencing with Section 39000),Division 17 (commencing with Section 40000.1), and Division 18 (commencing with Section 42000), except those provisions which by their very nature can have no application.And its the same for all the states in between: Bicycle riders have all the rights and responsibilities of other vehicle operators, i.e. cars. Participating in, cooperating with the traffic system, obeying the same rules of the road as other drivers, acknowledging their rights while claiming your own, that's the key to safe and confident cycling in traffic. Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles. Yeah, it makes perfect sense to me.

[wwhopper]

I see bicylists every day, riding in the middle of the road, when they should stay to the right, going through stop lights, speeding down crowded sidewalks and doing other stuff that would get an auto driver arrested.

Of course I see auto drivers doing things that should get them arrested too.

And we all know that Segway users are no saints either, for that matter.

It would just be nice, if all users, did indeed follow the laws, rules, and show a little common courtsey to others. Maybe that is too much to ask in this modern day in age, when everyone is the center of the universe.

[polo_pro]

Getting back to the original intended topic...
So, my contact at CalTrain said he would only be working there through Feb. 19th, and with the final trial going on Feb 12th, that leaves not-much-time to chime in to the CalTrain Accessible Transit Services Dept (800-660-4287, 510-817-1717, or 650-508-6200 - ask for that dept.) to share your argument as to why anyone with a segway should be allowed.

Secondly, it needs to be noted that CalTrain only really fills up during RUSH HOUR, and when I was riding yesterday (11am-2pm) there was, maybe 5 or 6 people with Bikes on the trains. I think the policy should be segways are allowed on bike cars, provided they have a lock, and are not traveling between the hours of 7am to 9:30am and 4pm to 6pm.
JohnM, you know, a CalTrain is like any other train. People can move between cars pretty easy. And, I think a comment like, is a bit stereotypical. Very much the same attitude is held by those who think Segway owners are 'just rich and lazy.'

Will W. and Polo, you both have had some good input with this thread. I would like you to share your posts with CalTrain. I also agree with Isidore's post about bike being allowed simply because of historical precedent and not rational arguments, and a Segway not being allowed because its new, misunderstood, etc. (Same thing when discussing smoking tobacco vs marijuana, but thats for another site.)

Wilco...but the person you really want to get involved in this effort is SLong. He's got a vested interest in Caltrains allowing segway use (and not just for the disabled). Another good person in the area that probably cares about Caltrains policy is jgbackes. segwayoffroad is probably the best person to get involved, since he has a legal background and is fairly effective in fighting for disabled folk's rights. Any of the Aftershocks would be good candidates too since this is their neck of the woods...remember, I'm 100 miles away (though I have ridden Caltrains a few times in the past).

Please keep communicating with your contact within Caltrains, and try to have that person refer you to someone else within the organization who's sympathetic (and hopefully higher up in the organization).

[Desert_Seg]

Great new! Is this an opportune time for someone from DRAFT to contact Caltrains as they near the point where a decision is made? A little ADA education at the right time can go a long way.

ps - Rep points for you Apollo!

Steve,

This is not "great news". Yes, it is good news for the Mobility Impaired but it is terrible news from the standpoint of Segway and any Segway user who is not MI.

What they are saying is that we cannot use the train. That we are "second class" citizens as compared to cyclists. In fact, as I write this I realize that if the proceed with their plan they have just created a "class" of people (Segway gliders) who are discriminated against for being in that class. (ok, maybe a slight stretch talking about discrimination but...)

CalTrain needs to get thousands upon thousands upon thousands of e-mails about this, and we shoud NOT be applauding this decision.

If bicycles can go on the train, so can Segways.

Steven

[Desert_Seg]

One of the good things about this forum and topics like this is that we get to learn "best practices".

With the Dubai Metro opening up next year, along with a monorail on Palm Island, and a recently announced UAE wide commuter train, we have many chances to help influence glidership.

To that extent I have been in regular contact with the Dubai Metro in order to get approval for gliders to be able to glide to and from the Metro cars. I have also requested an appointment with the Palm Monorai authorities l so that I can begin the process there.

There are two points I've discovered:

1. There are some common objections, mostly regarding safety in and around the station, and on the cars.

2. Virtually everybody involves thinks that using the Segway for the first mile / last mile is an excellent idea.

Knowing item 2 has helped me overcome the common objections of item 1. I believe that CalTrain is probably of the same ilk and if you go to them with reasonable discussion points then you have a good chance of succeeding.

FYI, I have NEVER used the "Segway should be treated the same as a bicyle" argument. But then, that could be because you rarely see anybody cycling and there is no cycling culture here.

Steven

[JohnM]

If bicycles can go on the train, so can Segways.

Right back where we started from.

Why is the statement above true?.
Bikes aren't Segways. Segways aren't bikes.
Shouting, "ME TOO!" is not a valid reason.
Especially if the too-ness is debatable.

Do I think access should be expanded to other groups? Yes.
But if the system is at or near capacity and resources are already stretched, then adding other groups means removing revenue producing seats or turning away current users. I see either choice as unacceptable.

Can you make a case for excluding bicycles in order to include Segways without resorting to the typical inane comments about sweat and spandex? (Do an image search of Caltrain/bikes and you find little evidence of either.)

[quade]

But if the system is at or near capacity and resources are already stretched, then adding other groups means removing revenue producing seats or turning away current users.

No, what it means is that EVERYONE should have access on a fair and equal basis, not simply the people that put their foot in the door first.

[Desert_Seg]

Right back where we started from....

You know, I don't understand you sometimes.

Why reinvent the wheel? The cyclists have done us a favor and set up all the approvals needed for bicycles on trains.

It is real simple, if you don't try to complicate it. If bicycles can go on trains, so can Segways. Yes, I agree we then have to be ready to defend it BUT you can't say the argument doesn't fit.

Again, no need to reinvent the wheel.

Steven

[Desert_Seg]

...
But if the system is at or near capacity and resources are already stretched, then adding other groups means removing revenue producing seats or turning away current users. I see either choice as unacceptable....

As to this comment.

What is being said is that all users should have the same access. Therefore, first come, first served.

Sure the cyclists are going to be happy but you know what, that is what happens with progress. Some like it, some don't.

Imagine if the horse and buggy crowd had said "we can't have the newfangled machines on our roads, we were here first and, by gosh, they make noise, smell, and scare our horses" and folks had listened to them? Where would we be today?

Steven

[hellphish]

Right back where we started from.

Why is the statement above true?.
Bikes aren't Segways. Segways aren't bikes.
Shouting, "ME TOO!" is not a valid reason.
Especially if the too-ness is debatable.

Do I think access should be expanded to other groups? Yes.
But if the system is at or near capacity and resources are already stretched, then adding other groups means removing revenue producing seats or turning away current users. I see either choice as unacceptable.

Can you make a case for excluding bicycles in order to include Segways without resorting to the typical inane comments about sweat and spandex? (Do an image search of Caltrain/bikes and you find little evidence of either.)

You don't damn exclude anyone. Why is "first come, first served" not being applied? "Oh boo hoo, some cyclist was late and now there's no room on the train for him." Sucks. Take the next train.

[Desert_Seg]

You don't damn . ...

Will / Sal / Pam, he swore, he swore. :eek:

What are we going to do about it??????

Steven

Pssst, it's a joke (see how many neg points I get! Thanks POLO :D

[JohnM]

Why reinvent the wheel? The cyclists have done us a favor and set up all the approvals needed for bicycles on trains.

As soon as you guys get approval to take your Segways into Disney theme parks, I'll look forward to riding my bike thru the Magic Kingdom. Thanks in advance for the favor.

Bikes aren't Segways. Segways aren't bikes. If they were the same, Segway Inc wouldn't have Matt Dailida on the payroll.

[polo_pro]

Steve,

This is not "great news". Yes, it is good news for the Mobility Impaired but it is terrible news from the standpoint of Segway and any Segway user who is not MI.

What they are saying is that we cannot use the train. That we are "second class" citizens as compared to cyclists. In fact, as I write this I realize that if the proceed with their plan they have just created a "class" of people (Segway gliders) who are discriminated against for being in that class. (ok, maybe a slight stretch talking about discrimination but...)

CalTrain needs to get thousands upon thousands upon thousands of e-mails about this, and we shoud NOT be applauding this decision.

If bicycles can go on the train, so can Segways.

Steven

The situation seems comparable to Simon's Mall management. Based on what I've heard from other CalTrains riders/gliders, their staff is well educated about the segway ban, and the policy is entrenched at this point. So in the face of such resistence, I applaud the effort to get CalTrains to at least let mobility impaired folks use segway on their trains.

As to bikes vs segways aboard public transit, I agree to a point. Are strollers allowed on board? What about heavy suitcases with wheels? What exactly is the issue?

Whether it be wheeled devices or heavy objects, I agree they should be treated equally. But if this is the case, should it apply to other places like malls? I can take a stroller in a mall...why not a segway?

As you can see, I'm making the "slippery slope" argument here. My point is that we all slip down the slope with our individual opinions of "what is reasonable". So we can sit here and argue if segways belong in trains, planes and malls, but I choose to focus on the one thing we all can agree on. Mobility impaired folks should be able to use segways almost anywhere (where "almost" means there will be a few places where it'd be considered unsafe by even the majority of experienced segway owners).

ps - This other quote of yours seems to disagree with your above quote


FYI, I have NEVER used the "Segway should be treated the same as a bicyle" argument. But then, that could be because you rarely see anybody cycling and there is no cycling culture here.

[SEGsby]

You are correct. Bikes are not Segways, and are incapable of emulating pedestrian characteristics in a crowd of people; or at all for that matter. Bikes are simply A to B devices.

Bike brakes are inferior, especially so when wet.

Bikes can't pivot in place and take up a lot of room making tight, awkward turns.

And Bikes fall down or become difficult to steer when you slow to stop.

Bikes are not pedestrian friendly. Bikes are therefore dangerous when used in dense groups of people.

Segways stop quicker using torque. Being wet has little effect on braking.

Segway can pivot in place, just like people. No extra space is required.

Segways do not fall down or become more difficult to steer when you slow to stop.

A Segway can easily perform non-linear motions, and is therefore much safer to use in a chaotic environment. If you owned a Segway, you might grasp this.

So your dream of riding bikes in Disney, is mere fantasy.

SEGsby

As soon as you guys get approval to take your Segways into Disney theme parks, I'll look forward to riding my bike thru the Magic Kingdom. Thanks in advance for the favor.

Bikes aren't Segways. Segways aren't bikes. If they were the same, Segway Inc wouldn't have Matt Dailida on the payroll.

[Desert_Seg]

...But if this is the case, should it apply to other places like malls? I can take a stroller in a mall...why not a segway?

No, two totally different uses. One you are using to take your Segway (your alternative commuting device) from point a to point b, much as cyclists to.

The other you are saying you have the right to glide everywhere, which isn't true.

ps - This other quote of yours seems to disagree with your above quote

No, what I'm saying is that here (in the UAE) I don't use that argument. I did word it poorly though.

Steven
(now, with this post, at 2,500)

[JohnM]

You are correct. Bikes are not Segways, and are incapable of emulating pedestrian characteristics in a crowd of people; or at all for that matter. Bikes are simply A to B devices.

Bike brakes are inferior, especially so when wet.

Bikes can't pivot in place and take up a lot of room making tight, awkward turns.

And Bikes fall down or become difficult to steer when you slow to stop.

Bikes are not pedestrian friendly. Bikes are therefore dangerous when used in dense groups of people.

Segways stop quicker using torque. Being wet has little effect on braking.

Segway can pivot in place, just like people. No extra space is required.

Segways do not fall down or become more difficult to steer when you slow to stop.

A Segway can easily perform non-linear motions, and is therefore much safer to use in a chaotic environment. If you owned a Segway, you might grasp this.

So your dream of riding bikes in Disney, is mere fantasy.

SEGsby

And all of this has what bearing on a Segway's ability to board and be transported on a train? Other than to confirm my original point, of course.

Love that part about bikes falling over when they stop. LOL!

[hellphish]

And all of this has what bearing on a Segway's ability to board and be transported on a train? Other than to confirm my original point, of course.

Love that part about bikes falling over when they stop. LOL!

Seriously. A bike is just like a segway in that they will both fall over when removed from their power source, unless steadied by a kickstand or a wall.

[Eric Payne]

You know, I don't understand you sometimes.

Why reinvent the wheel...

Well, there was that guy in Australia (at least I think it was Austalia) who, on paper, "re-invented" the wheel, applied for, and received, a patent.

[JohnM]

Seriously. A bike is just like a segway in that they will both fall over when removed from their power source, unless steadied by a kickstand or a wall.

Yes, but the bike's 'power source' does have the good sense to put his foot down when slowing to stop. Seriously. Its a skill easily mastered by a 5 year old, but that seems to elude some Segway proponents. Next thing you know they'll be saying you can't possibly remain upright on you own two feet.

All that is really immaterial. What I see happening, as CalTrain approaches maximum capacity, is that the space currently set aside for bikes will be converted back to revenue producing seats, unless cyclists and gliders want to pay a hefty premium for that space. At that point the cyclists will switch to folding bikes (http://www.dahon.com/us/curved3.htm) (currently allowed as luggage on all CalTrain cars, provided they fold to a max of 32 inches) and Segway owners will be out of luck.

[quade]

. . . currently allowed as luggage on all CalTrain cars, provided they fold to a max of 32 inches . . .

Could you point us to the policy or regulation that allows this?

My guess is that 32 inches is only one of three dimensions into which the bike/baggage/whatever must fit.

[bentbiker]

Could you point us to the policy or regulation that allows this?

My guess is that 32 inches is only one of three dimensions into which the bike/baggage/whatever must fit.

The following was found at: http://www.caltrain.org/caltrain_bike_FAQs.html

Are there space restrictions for folding bikes?Folding bikes are allowed on any train car as they are no wider than 32 inches at the widest point.

Folding bikes must be in the folded position prior to boarding and must remain under the control of the owner while on board. Folding bikes must be able to be stored under the seat in front of you or be placed in the luggage racks provided by Caltrain.

Folding bikes may not be placed on seats and must not block aisles, stairs or vestibules. Folding bikes may not be stored in the space reserved for passengers wheelchairs.

Dirt or grease from folding bikes must not be transferred to the interior of the car, other passengers, or crew members. If the bike is dirty, it must be placed in a bag to prevent soiling of the rail car. It is at the conductors' discretion to reject the boarding of a folding bike that they determine is not protected and appears to be greasy or dirty.

Folding bikes that are not in the bike rack must remain folded until the passenger has fully left the train.

[quade]

Ah, " . . . able to be stored under the seat in front of you or be placed in the luggage racks . . . "

Nice find. Pretty much completely negates the concept of a Segway falling into that category, but valuable information none the less.