Two segways down

[stinggray]

I have two Segways an i167 and xp. I have not rode ether one for about a month. Today I wanted to go for a glide. So I tried to power up the XP and I got a red light with a wrench and all lines are on around the circle. I checked the cablesin the tube and they are connected fine. I also swapped the batters. Then I tried to power it up again and I get the same thing red light with a wrench and all lines are on around the circle. One more thing, when I plug it in I don't get any lights indicating it is charging. I then went to the i167 to power it up and all I get is a beep with no lights. When I plug in in the lights a flashing indicating it is charging. They are both plug in to the same GFI outlet. As far as I know they have been plugged in all the time. I'm not sure if the GFI had tripped at some time.

Dose anyone have a clue whats going on?

Thanks Craig

[quade]

Dose anyone have a clue whats going on?

In the spot the Segways have been resting for the last month, how cold has it been?

Is this, for instance, an unheated garage or in a heated room inside the house?

[stinggray]

It's in an unheated garage in South Florida. The lows in the garage no lower then mid 50's.

[Tarkus]

It's in an unheated garage in South Florida. The lows in the garage no lower then mid 50's.


It's been a bad month for Florida 167's....

I was getting ready to fly so the night before I took the 167/Nimh for a spin.
I too got the dreaded red , all bar "Death Wrench". It fired up then went south.

It sat for about a month without a glide as I only use it to travel.

It's on the same circuit as my 180 and there have been no problems.

I swapped out batteries and control shaft to no avail. Now it's getting ready for a trip to the "Mother-ship".

This could be the end, that error can be $$$$$. Then I'll have to have the carcass shipped back so I can part it out.

Be Big,
Alan

[stinggray]

So are you saying they are shot?:confused: Why would you just part it out?

[Tarkus]

I'm not saying shot for sure but some parts , I have been told, can run into the thousands.

That would be hard to justify.

Hell a CS is going for like $900.00. If INC can determine the problem , and the cost be to high then I would part it out.

The reason I would part it is I bought the 167 almost 3 years ago for $2500.00 in mint condition. That was a good deal at the time.

The price for a used 167 is somewhere around $2000.00. I could get close to that for misc. parts.

Then buy another machine.

I'm hoping it can be fixed without breaking the bank but I have heard thats not a good error.

Fingers crossed for both of us.

Be Big,
Alan

[cmonkey]

It's in an unheated garage in South Florida. The lows in the garage no lower then mid 50's.

or maybe a key has gone bad? try a different one.

Just in case it's a moisture related issue, you may want to pull everything apart and get everything warmed up.

Maybe put everything in a car and let it sit in the sun for a few hrs.

[Tarkus]

or maybe a key has gone bad? try a different one.

Just in case it's a moisture related issue, you may want to pull everything apart and get everything warmed up.

Maybe put everything in a car and let it sit in the sun for a few hrs.

Good idea. I dried/swapped out parts but always used the same key. I just tried another key and still no go.

But I'll add that to my troubleshooting list.

Be Big,
Alan

[stinggray]

I have used different keys and I get the same thing. Is mid 50's too cold for the batteries? Dose mean it's the batteries? If not, any other ideas?

O'yea. I have an xt not an xp:mad:

[wwhopper]

You can swap parts to find out what the problem is.

I-167 - take the Control Shaft off, disconnect the cords and wait 10 seconds reconnect the cords you will hear a tone, and then give it a try. Nine times out of Ten it will start up.

On the XT - the Red circle (circle of death as it is known) and the wrench are not good signs.

Could be anything, from the wires in the CSB to a platform fault to a handlebar gone bad, any number of other things too. You have swapped out the batteries, so try swaping out the handlebar from the I-167.

If all else fails, make a trip to your local dealer that has an upgrade computer and have the logs sent up to the mothership and get them to read them. They will tell you of the issues (though maybe not all) that the machine is having.

Good luck, keep us posted.

p.s. the 50 degree weather should not be an issue to the batteries, they hate it under 40 degrees, but really don't crap out like this.

If you have Li Ions, check the revison of them, if they are early AB batteries, it might be time to spend some change and replace them. The only thing those batteries hate more than cold, is time and getting old.

[BillPaxton]

I have used different keys and I get the same thing. Is mid 50's too cold for the batteries? Dose mean it's the batteries? If not, any other ideas?

O'yea. I have an xt not an xp:mad:
hey C, good to see you're back - shoot me a pm this week, you can try my batteries and CS, both are known good. between my parts and yours we can isolate the problem. This happened to me last week and I got stuck downtown, had to do the lawnmower walk of shame. Plugged in overnight and everything was fine the next day. If you do get it to fire up, make sure and ride till it dies and then recondition.

[polo_pro]

You can swap parts to find out what the problem is.

Amen to this! Nice to hear someone closely affiliated with a dealer pushing the DIY line.

ps - You do need to mention that his i167 may have hypertronic connectors, and if so, would not be compatible with his XT.

Also assuming he has the same type of batteries (Li-Ion vs NiHM) then he can mix and match them to see if he can find one good pair.

[segsurfer]

Amen to this! Nice to hear someone closely affiliated with a dealer pushing the DIY line.

ps - You do need to mention that his i167 may have hypertronic connectors, and if so, would not be compatible with his XT.

Also assuming he has the same type of batteries (Li-Ion vs NiHM) then he can mix and match them to see if he can find one good pair.

Polo's gone postal with his new signature:D
-segsurfer

[polo_pro]

Polo's gone postal with his new signature:D

I'm starting to appreciate SoCal's weather (even if its polo community isn't as motivated).

[wwhopper]

Polo's gone postal with his new signature:D
-segsurfer

That the reason the USPS gave up their Segs is because Polo tried to get them to start a Polo Team, but the post office wanted to use those little trucks to play polo instead!

[hb_branko]

To me happen red light too.
HT i167, 14,2 software, NiHM batteries
I glad on Sunday.
Battery at evening has two lines.
I leave segway at the wall to empty battery.
After time there where 1 line of battery on display.
I step on and playing with it front-back driving.
No lines, green light smiley face, smooth working.
Red light switched on and I wont to step down from it.
I step down uncarefully and segway ride back to my leg and to sofa.
Wheels turned around on site, red light where still on, but just before where switched off, on display come the wrench tool in full black circle.
No wet, no cold ..

RED LIGHT in my head now!!!
I look into Reference Manual, find out, that this mean unknown fault in the Platform.
I read on forum some advices:
I replace battery's front to back
I lift the mat and press all 4 sensors few times.
I disconnect and connect again handlebar.
Nothing happen.
Now I'm waiting to Monday that expert comes from education.

What can be reasson in my case for red light .. according to discribe how that happen.

Branko

[polo_pro]

That the reason the USPS gave up their Segs is because Polo tried to get them to start a Polo Team, but the post office wanted to use those little trucks to play polo instead!

Nah, the real reason the post office sold off all those segways was because we'd reached the tipping point. I'd managed to get half a dozen mallets into the hands of postal employees, and we paraded down Main St in some sleepy little town in the Midwest to show off our new team.

Well, upon seeing a phalanx of mallet weilding postal employees coming down the stree, pandemonium ensued causing the spectators to run away screaming. The FBI got involved, and I did some time for "inciting a revolt". For some reason, the "powers that be" feared the possibility of having several dozen postal workers in one place all with polo mallets (especially given the latest round of budget cuts that were about to hit)!

Well, all the segways got hauled away to some warehouse (ala Indiana Jones). But recently were re-discovered. Not knowing the risks (but feeling the pain of the latest round of budget cuts), these folks sold them off to the general public. Thankfully, postal employees don't make alot of money, so they were all outbid. The nation is safe once again...

ps - Does anyone else think Branko's broken english might give Mr L a run for his money?

[SegDog]

Branko's post well explains my latest dilemma.

[Tarkus]

To me happen red light too.
HT i167, 14,2 software, NiHM batteries
I glad on Sunday.
Battery at evening has two lines.
I leave segway at the wall to empty battery.
After time there where 1 line of battery on display.
I step on and playing with it front-back driving.
No lines, green light smiley face, smooth working.
Red light switched on and I wont to step down from it.
I step down uncarefully and segway ride back to my leg and to sofa.
Wheels turned around on site, red light where still on, but just before where switched off, on display come the wrench tool in full black circle.
No wet, no cold ..

RED LIGHT in my head now!!!
I look into Reference Manual, find out, that this mean unknown fault in the Platform.
I read on forum some advices:
I replace battery's front to back
I lift the mat and press all 4 sensors few times.
I disconnect and connect again handlebar.
Nothing happen.
Now I'm waiting to Monday that expert comes from education.

What can be reasson in my case for red light .. according to discribe how that happen.

Branko

It means anything can be wrong, hence "undefined error".

You can either find a dealer with a computer that can define the problem, not an option for me as all my local "dealers" are "tour first" operations.

If you can't find a dealer then call INC and be ready to ship it back to the mother-ship. Then cross your fingers on $$.

Be Big,
Alan

[stinggray]

I could not find the problem with either one of my segways. The plugs did not match up and that DAMM red light keeps coming on.:mad: So I took it too the local dealer/severs center. The guy that helped said that could hook it to the computer to see the batters are the problem and that's it. If that's not it then they have to send it to INC. My question is. Is that all a dealer can diagnose before sending back to INC? If it needs to be sent back to INC should I do it or let them do it?

[Tarkus]

I could not find the problem with either one of my segways. The plugs did not match up and that DAMM red light keeps coming on.:mad: So I took it too the local dealer/severs center. The guy that helped said that could hook it to the computer to see the batters are the problem and that's it. If that's not it then they have to send it to INC. My question is. Is that all a dealer can diagnose before sending back to INC? If it needs to be sent back to INC should I do it or let them do it?

If you have the original box then I would ship it myself.
If not and a dealer was willing to supply box and ship I would do that.

I would also call INC and they will give you a return # if it needs to go north.

Be Big,
Alan

[MTOBATTERY]

50's is definitely not too cold for any battery chemistry. Lithiums will fail if left in aany temp close to or below freezing for any period of time. Power tool users with this chemistry have been reporting that to me. NiCads and NiMH are much more durable and can charge/function at temperatures below freezing. Performance would be decreased but they will function. In extreme temps the battery will only charge partially and then give a false peak showing it is full when it isn't.

Did you charge the batteries before leaving them sit for a month? If not they may have self discharged to a voltage lower than your charger will recognize. I'm not a Segway expert but have seen this occur with similar batteries in other applications.

[hellphish]

MTO, thanks for the insight! +rep'd

[stinggray]

Did you charge the batteries before leaving them sit for a month? If not they may have self discharged to a voltage lower than your charger will recognize. I'm not a Segway expert but have seen this occur with similar batteries in other applications.

I leave the Segways plugged in all the time. This what is recommended by INC.

Jason, if they come back with bad batters I'll be in touch with you very soon to have a pair rebuilt.

[Desert_Seg]

...If not they may have self discharged to a voltage lower than your charger will recognize. I'm not a Segway expert but have seen this occur with similar batteries in other applications.

Jason,

You are a treasure trove of knowledge. Where have you been the past three years?????

FYI, the LIon batteries used by Segway do have the low voltage drain problem and this is the most common reason we know of for failure.

Is there a way to "jump start" the batteries so that they can take a charge that will bring them up to the level to where the platform of the off board charger (OBC) can work?

Steven

[bentbiker]

50's is definitely not too cold for any battery chemistry. Lithiums will fail if left in aany temp close to or below freezing for any period of time. Power tool users with this chemistry have been reporting that to me. NiCads and NiMH are much more durable and can charge/function at temperatures below freezing. Performance would be decreased but they will function. In extreme temps the battery will only charge partially and then give a false peak showing it is full when it isn't.

Did you charge the batteries before leaving them sit for a month? If not they may have self discharged to a voltage lower than your charger will recognize. I'm not a Segway expert but have seen this occur with similar batteries in other applications.
Jason,
So that you don't have to pick up every piece of information piecemeal, I thought I'd post a list of things I THINK I KNOW about the Segway Li-Ions from Valence. If I mis-state something, I'm sure it will be pointed out.


Valence has CLAIMED their batteries should get 1000 recharges with only a 10% loss of capacity.


All charging circuitry for batteries that are installed on the Segway, is on the segway -- there is no external adapter. At full charge rate, the draw is only one amp at 120v AC (from the wall). This is a limit placed on the charging by Segway; they admit that the batteries are capable of much faster charging, but they've elected to limit it (battery life, safety?). So cells with faster recharge capability would be of no advantage since the circuitry won't take advantage of it. Whether the conversion from AC to DC takes place on the circuit board of the Segway or within each battery I'm not clear, but the balancing circuitry between each of the 23 segments is, as I understand it, within each battery. Since the off board charger states its output to be DC, that leads me to believe the conversion is done outside the battery when the batteries are on the unit.


Batteries are 23s4p, using 1350 mAh cells. Certainly, the charging circuitry will not recharge if voltage drops below a certain threshold level. A couple people have evidently been able to revive such batteries (at some risk I guess) by going around the circuitry somehow; if the checking circuitry is external to the battery and merely prevents any current from flowing to the battery, I guess it would merely require supplying voltage directly to the terminals of the battery without the protective circuitry long enough to get above the threshold voltage. I'm guessing that the voltage is converted to DC outside the battery and that the voltage required for such would be 72+V DC and not many of us have such regulated power supplies.


There are 3 phases of charging. The high rate of charge previously mentioned takes it most of the way and the rate then drops (not sure whether it monitors temp or voltage to decide at what point the rate drops). Charging LEDs on the Segway are solid green until the rate drops and at that time, the LED for that battery will begin a steady blinking. Each battery charges at its own rate. When fully charged, the balancing circuitry takes over and the LED flashes erratically (slowly) indicating slight pulses when necessary to balance out the segments.


Segway claims an operating temperature range of 14 to 122 degrees F.

[Tarkus]

I'll bet the Farm that it has nothing to do with the batteries, it's just one of those things.

I know it's not the batts' in my case. Every part of the 167 works fine on other Segs.
It has to be in the platform.

Off she goes !

Be Big,
Alan

[MTOBATTERY]

Jason,

You are a treasure trove of knowledge. Where have you been the past three years?????

FYI, the LIon batteries used by Segway do have the low voltage drain problem and this is the most common reason we know of for failure.

Is there a way to "jump start" the batteries so that they can take a charge that will bring them up to the level to where the platform of the off board charger (OBC) can work?

Steven

Thanks Steven :)

If the Lithiums are draining while not in use there is another problem somewhere else. Lithiums have a very very low self discharge rate. The next place I would look would be the balancing board which is likely located within the battery (I'm told the sample arrived yesterday so I'll look). This board is designed to keep discharging the individual cells so they all have equal voltage. If one cell is starting to fail the board makes all the cells inferior to match.... This really stinks but it is done out of safety because lithiums become volatile at low (2.9V-) and over voltage (4V+). Standard operating voltage if 4V-3V. No more no less.

I'll look at the pack we have here more closely and see if there is a SAFE work around to bring them back up so they can be charged.

My wife is yelling for me to go. I'll be back later today to finish posting.

[Desert_Seg]

Jason,

More info for you, based off of bentbiker's post:

...Whether the conversion from AC to DC takes place on the circuit board of the Segway or within each battery I'm not clear...

This takes place on the unit itself, not the battery.

Low voltage situations seem to occur for two primary reasons:

1. Stored with low voltage and the batteries then quickly drain

2. Stored for a long time without being plugged in

Steven

[MTOBATTERY]

1000 recharges is completely out of the realm of possibility for that chemistry. I would estimate 300-400 would be a more reasonable number for that chemistry.

If you feel the lithium cells are good and it just isn't charging because of being under voltage they could be hooked up to a good battery + to + and - to - to bring the voltage up to par. Keep in mind doing this could potentially cause fire if there is a bad cell in the pack so you want to watch closely and only have them hooked together for 30-40 seconds and then immediately put the bad one on the charger to get it started. This is only a quick fix if the voltage just discharged below 3V per cell. If the cells are just going bad this obviously isn't going to fix anything.

I wouldn't recommend leaving anything plugged in all the time. This is not good for any battery chemistry. What I would recommend instead would be to put the charger on a timer so it only runs for a half hour each day while it's not being used. This is more than enough time to replace any self discharging and will keep the charging circuitry isolated from constant use. NiMH batteries especially will last more years by not having a charge running into them all the time. I'm sure the Segway system monitors and control when to charge but fact is they don't need to be charged more than once a month as long as they are stored with a full charge. If they are draining completely in a month or less there is a continuous draw somewhere that is causing it and again the timer on the charging system can be used to further regulate charge time.

I'll be looking into the lithium upgrades and report back what we come up with. As previously stated I'm sure it will take a few weeks to have a complete conclusion.

[bentbiker]

I wouldn't recommend leaving anything plugged in all the time. This is not good for any battery chemistry. What I would recommend instead would be to put the charger on a timer so it only runs for a half hour each day while it's not being used. This is more than enough time to replace any self discharging and will keep the charging circuitry isolated from constant use. NiMH batteries especially will last more years by not having a charge running into them all the time. I'm sure the Segway system monitors and control when to charge but fact is they don't need to be charged more than once a month as long as they are stored with a full charge. If they are draining completely in a month or less there is a continuous draw somewhere that is causing it and again the timer on the charging system can be used to further regulate charge time.

Jason,
I knew I was forgetting something important in my list of battery idiosyncrasies. As you probably know, the Segway batteries are screwed to the base of the unit with 4 screws per battery; 99% of the time, that is where they stay until there is a problem. What you won't be able to determine without a Segway is the amount of draw on the battery due to circuitry that at least in the Gen2 monitors the "key" -- a wireless transmitter known as an InfoKey. I don't know the workings of the Gen1 key reader, but I'm betting that it too has a constant draw because the batteries will definitely discharge one of the batteries over a period of weeks. It would be really great if one of our Segway Employee Members could contribute the constant draw in the Off mode for the models. Not knowing what all the terminals are on the battery, I would be reluctant to hook up a battery with jumpers and DC amp meter -- probably not a big deal, but I'd be concerned about the sequence of making connections and whether it is good to have a monitoring circuit unconnected for too long after other connections were made.

As for the idea of putting the charger on a timer, I had toyed with doing that just to make sure I was utilizing power when demand on the grid was lowest. However I feared that if one battery discharges 5% over a 23.5 hour period, that would go against my 300-400 recharges, but if the constant attachment meant the monitoring circuit(s) were fed by the charger instead of discharging the battery, that there might be no such utilization of recharges. In any event, Segway Inc recommends keeping the unit plugged in anytime it is not being used.

[MTOBATTERY]

The only thing that having the charger on a timer would do is register as a charge on your board if it is a lithium battery but not against the total charges/discharges you will get. If you had a smarter timer that could be programmed to come on once a week it would be even better. Leaving it plugged in all the time will charge the battery every time it's voltage drops below the Segway spec'd voltage which is probably more than once a day. The other thing to keep in mind is Segway wants to sell replacement batteries. Most manufacturers of power tools tell their customers to leave the batteries in the chargers until next use as well. We have proven customers can get almost twice the overall life out of the batteries by charging them and removing them from the charger. In this case it sounds like that isn't totally practical but I'm positive if the charging frequency of an unused battery can be limited you will find it will last longer before failing to accept a charge.

How close is Lake Forest to San Diego and Oceanside? I come out there anually to visit customers/brokerages that I deal with. Maybe I could meet up with you when I come out this spring.

[bentbiker]

How close is Lake Forest to San Diego and Oceanside? I come out there anually to visit customers/brokerages that I deal with. Maybe I could meet up with you when I come out this spring.
Lake Forest is only 40 miles from Oceanside and both are on I-5, so PM me when you have your schedule; it would be great to get together.