Rebuilt Segway batteries! [Archive]

mpupeza

01-26-2008, 10:39 AM

Hi;
I'm just in the process of being shipped, sight unseen, a newly purchased i167 Segway. It should arrive next week!
I am unsure of the state of the batteries and inquired about new ones from Segway! "$1851.42 for a pair including tax." was quoted from a Florida dealer!
Hmmm!
Knowing that there are Battery Rebuilders, I sent a query to:
sales@mtobattery.com <http://www.mtobattery.com> and received this answer (snipped):
"Yes, we can rebuild the segway batteries. We have done them for other customers already so we are very familiar with what you are describing. The NiMH cells we use are 4Ah instead of the 2.6Ah that Segway is using. This means your total battery pack would be 8Ah which would afford you longer run time off each charge. The cost to rebuild one battery pack (36V @ 4Ah x 2) is $350.00. That means you get a little more than a 50% increase in capacity for about the same price Segway used to charge for a replacement."

So, there does seem to be an alternative to the expensive Li-Po batteries.
While I can not recommend this MTO Company, I do suggest that other Battery Rebuilders are also available to rebuild your battery packs for a price that won't blow the budget.

I am not affilliated with any business related to this recommendation!
I hope I won't need new ones for a while!
Good luck.
Mike in FL .....>

bentbiker

01-26-2008, 01:29 PM

"Yes, we can rebuild the segway batteries. We have done them for other customers already so we are very familiar with what you are describing. The NiMH cells we use are 4Ah instead of the 2.6Ah that Segway is using. This means your total battery pack would be 8Ah which would afford you longer run time off each charge. The cost to rebuild one battery pack (36V @ 4Ah x 2) is $350.00. That means you get a little more than a 50% increase in capacity for about the same price Segway used to charge for a replacement."

So, there does seem to be an alternative to the expensive Li-Po batteries.
While I can not recommend this MTO Company, I do suggest that other Battery Rebuilders are also available to rebuild your battery packs for a price that won't blow the budget.

Mike,
Welcome, and thanks for a great first post. You may or may not realize that only the Gen1 models like your 167 can utilize the NiMH batteries. I've emailed MTO also for clarification on their email. It is my understanding that the NiMH batteries are 72V, 60 cells in series whereas he talks about 36V. Maybe he is just referring to two 36V segments.

Also, you referred to an alternative to Li-Po batteries, but we don't actually use the polymer batteries, which, as I understand it, liberate oxygen when damaged and can cause the fire problem. Ours use an iron phosphate electrode instead, if I remember correctly.

polo_pro

01-26-2008, 01:43 PM

*SLAM*

Was that the sound of Bill Paxton's car door as he jumps in the car to make the long drive to Wrightsville, PA with his nearly dead battery packs?

Seriously, I was excited by this post (and yes, you definitely got pos rep for bringing it to us). MANY of us have been looking for a repacking alternative for our older segway batteries. And now that Segway has stopped selling NiMH, this need has become that much more important.

The neatest part about all of this is the cost. We've all speculated how much repacking a NiMH with better NiMH cells would cost, and MTO's estimate are right in line with how much it should cost. So the fact they claim to have done it already is quite plausible. I'm really hoping that folks see the value in this alternative since I want to see these folks get lots of business (and give all us Gen 1 owners an alternative to the ~$1700 battery replacement cost of Li-Ions)!

Going forward please keep us informed with how easy it is to deal with them, find out who in their organization is handling Segway jobs so we all know exactly who to go to (because sometimes sales reps aren't all up to speed on exactly what the company is capable of) and finally encourage someone from MTO Batteries to join SC to regularly post what their capabilities/cost are in the Buy/Sell Forum.

ps - I'm tickled pink about this...finally I have a clear path forward till Segway INC finally comes out with a quick charge Li-Ion. That's about the only feature as a long distance glider that'd get me to pay big bucks for battery replacement....well that or if they get get longer range batteries (but I doubt that'll happen...who regularly goes more than 20 miles at top speed, eh?).

Mr_Laurenzano

01-26-2008, 02:11 PM

...and to think I was going to take these 9 sets to radio shack to recycle.
Please keep us updated.
Crash

Isidore

01-26-2008, 02:12 PM

bentbiker

01-26-2008, 02:53 PM

I'ld be interesting to know how they open and reseal the case. Also, with the increased capacity, they are bridging the gap between Li-ions and the old NiMH batteries and if newer Segs could be persuaded to accept them then it would offer a good solution for those that want to travel with their Segs by air.
Great minds and all that . . . I asked MTO 5 questions by email and they quickly responded as follows:

1.) Is the final voltage 36V or 72V on the battery you described as "36V @ 4Ah x 2"? It is my understanding the original uses 60 cells in series to achieve 72V. Am I wrong? Inside the battery is two 36V batteries (30 cells each). This is why we quote the service as 36V @ 4Ah x 2. Segway typically denotes this in a similar manner on the battery case.

2.) Do you spot weld the battery tabs together? We spot weld our batteries together using resistance spot welding with pneumatic weld heads to insure consistant pressure and weld quality.

3.) How do you remove the top of the batteries and reseal? I am unable to answer this question as it is a proprietary process. The batteries will be resealed and will be just as impervious to moisture as they are from Segway/Saft.

4.) Do you provide a warranty? Our warranty details can be found on our website http://mtobattery.com/store/page3.html

5.) Have you tried to rebuild the Lithium Ion batteries? They are, as you probably know, the phosphate type, not cobalt/polymer. We do not rebuid lithium batteries any more because of the FAA regulations and the new haszmat fees associated with importing them. The phosphate type is better than Lithium Ion but the Lithium Nano is what should be used in Segway's to truely handle the requirements. Segway didn't use them because of cost. After seeing what they charge it looks like they could definitely have afforded it.

If you have any further questions feel free to ask.

---
MTO Battery Sales Dept.
sales@mtobattery.com
www.mtobattery.com

As you can see, they were unbelievably quick to respond and invited further questions.

BillPaxton

01-26-2008, 03:18 PM

*SLAM*

Was that the sound of Bill Paxton's car door as he jumps in the car to make the long drive to Wrightsville, PA with his nearly dead battery packs?

am I that predictable? Seriously, I fired off three emails 2 seconds after reading post #1 before I went on to #2, and I got a chuckle out of this! Reps to Mike (future Jupiter Polo Team-mate I hope) for the info and you for making me blow iced tea through my nose onto my poor unsuspecting dog.

bentbiker

01-26-2008, 06:45 PM

I complimented MTO on their quick answers, bemoaned their lack of an option for Li-Ion users, and invited them to visit us here. I received the following response:

We pride ourselves on quick communication. The added hazmat fees are new to 2008 and are being imposed on incoming shipments based off weight. The new restrictions have increased our lead time on materials from 3-4 weeks to 6-8 weeks because they must come in by boat. Honestly, Lithium batteries are not designed for half the applications they get used in. If we could get a dead Lithium Segway battery to look at we may be able to make special accomodations to service this market. We have no tech data on file for them. We are thorough with our services and must reverse engineer one before we will rebuild one.I must get permission from our owner before posting/joining your forum. Also, you are welcome to visit woodnet.net or sawmillcreek.org to get feedback from our wood working customers who get their tool batteries built by us.
Anybody have a Li that they can provide for research? What would be a gigantic plus would be if they had the ability to find individual bad cells in premature failures and replace those for $100, instead of buying a new battery, or even rebuilding entirely. $100 instead of $1700+.

itbeme

01-26-2008, 08:19 PM

bentbiker

01-26-2008, 09:02 PM

I have a dead lion I would be more than happy to donate, with maybe some compensation in the future. It is dead and will not accept a charge. If any one wants to get the ball rolling with MTO, let me know.Shoot them an email ( sales@mtobattery.com ) and see if they'll give you a discount on a rebuild if they decide they can rebuild them. However, remember that a dead battery is normally considered to be a door stopper. Dealers actually pay for disposal, I think. Keyser is right next to Wrightsville on my globe (189 miles), so maybe if you have a way to get it into their hands, they might scratch your back.

BillPaxton

01-26-2008, 09:15 PM

Shoot them an email ( sales@mtobattery.com ) and see if they'll give you a discount on a rebuild if they decide they can rebuild them. However, remember that a dead battery is normally considered to be a door stopper. Dealers actually pay for disposal, I think. Keyser is right next to Wrightsville on my globe (189 miles), so maybe if you have a way to get it into their hands, they might scratch your back.
if you'll make the phone calls and mto will do it, I will pay the shipping. Then I'll just have to sweet talk Will H into upgrading my segs from 12.0!

bentbiker

01-26-2008, 09:28 PM

if you'll make the phone calls and mto will do it, I will pay the shipping. Then I'll just have to sweet talk Will H into upgrading my segs from 12.0!
Bill, were you addressing this to me or itbeme? I also don't know if he has more than one dead battery. Note also, they are only promising to look into rebuilding them -- no guarantees. With all of Will's travels, maybe he could drop them off at MTO.

BillPaxton

01-26-2008, 10:16 PM

Bill, were you addressing this to me or itbeme? I also don't know if he has more than one dead battery. Note also, they are only promising to look into rebuilding them -- no guarantees. With all of Will's travels, maybe he could drop them off at MTO.
I meant itbeme, but I would gladly pay to get them a battery, even if it yields nothing. I was very fortunate to have Dr. Marty give me a set of NiMH's as a Christmas gift, and he did not want my money - I want to pay it forward so to speak. If anyone at all would like to send them a battery to experiment, I will pay the shipping. Not 50 people mind you, but one or two for sure.

bentbiker

01-26-2008, 10:51 PM

I meant itbeme, but I would gladly pay to get them a battery, even if it yields nothing. I was very fortunate to have Dr. Marty give me a set of NiMH's as a Christmas gift, and he did not want my money - I want to pay it forward so to speak. If anyone at all would like to send them a battery to experiment, I will pay the shipping. Not 50 people mind you, but one or two for sure.
Wow! If that doesn't get you positive rep from 50 people, the system is broke. Not too long ago a guy found my lost wallet and returned it, refusing a reward; he, too, said to pay it forward. Nice work by both you and Marty.

itbeme

01-26-2008, 11:25 PM

BillPaxton

01-26-2008, 11:28 PM

Wow! If that doesn't get you positive rep from 50 people, the system is broke. Not too long ago a guy found my lost wallet and returned it, refusing a reward; he, too, said to pay it forward. Nice work by both you and Marty.
No, all the rep to Marty if you please, I'm just trying to do him right (that's kind of a Southernism I think). I truly hope to meet him at SF08!

SEGsby

01-27-2008, 04:22 AM

I gave one a couple weeks ago to Dr. Marty... *shrugs*

SEGsby

...
Anybody have a Li that they can provide for research? What would be a gigantic plus would be if they had the ability to find individual bad cells in premature failures and replace those for $100, instead of buying a new battery, or even rebuilding entirely. $100 instead of $1700+.

bentbiker

01-27-2008, 06:21 PM

batteries this coming week and see if they are interested in my dead Lion. It would be great to get it rebuilt at a fraction of the price.
Thanx for all the offers to pay for shipping, I can cover that. I'll let you know what I find out.
S

As I mentioned in a previous quote, I invited MTO to join us here and educate us on things battery related; I pointed out that while the responder was waiting for permission from the owner to join SC and speak on behalf of the company, he could read all the posts without being a member. Yesterday evening, he sent me the following request:
I just reviewed the message board. If you tell the gentleman who has one to email me his address and the packaged weight of the battery I can email a prepaid UPS label to his email account. We would pay S&H just to have the tech data on file.

itbeme

01-27-2008, 07:36 PM

You have a PM.
S

Five-Flags

01-27-2008, 09:15 PM

...
I just reviewed the message board. If you tell the gentleman who has one to email me his address and the packaged weight of the battery I can email a prepaid UPS label to his email account. We would pay S&H just to have the tech data on file.

Need to remember that when off the PB, Li-Ion has to be shipped HAZMAT.

TX2Wheels

01-28-2008, 06:10 PM

I have been successful in opening a Ni pack and removing a set of batteries and reattaching another pack. But be advised it took about 5 or so tries to complete. I made several mistakes and shorted out the circuit board before I figured out how to remove the set of ten. My cost will be about $225 if I stay with the standard battery. After reading this post I am going to price out the battery in question. Opening is not hard but there is a trick which I will share. Use an acrylic scoring knife to open. If anyone is interested I will share with you. I am kind of iffy in doing so because of possible liability issues. So for the moment I don't want to put to much in writiing.
My next venture is to install new conecttors in the CSB. The wires in the control shaft are 22 gauge and hard to solder. After some reseach I found solderless connectors on the net that have the solder and warp in one piece. I used them to change from a different connector that someone donated to me. It has been interesting trial an error, but fruitful. PM me and I'll give you my cell phone to chat about it.
Jay
Cajun 2 Wheels

bentbiker

01-28-2008, 08:41 PM

. . . it took about 5 or so tries to complete . . . shorted out the circuit board . . . $225 if I stay with the standard battery.

After reading this post I am going to price out the battery in question.
Jay, thanks for sharing your experience. You said you plan to price out the battery in question. Did you catch the $350 price quote to the OP? Considering the higher density cells and their absorbing of the liability for screwups, sounds like a pretty decent price.

Was the battery originally just worn out -- slowly lost its range -- or was there a sudden failure? If the latter, I was wondering if you were able to determine the failed cell(s) and whether it would have been possible to replace just the bad cells. Premature failures of NiMH batteries seem not to be reported nearly as often as with Li-Ions, so I guess I'm really thinking out loud as to the likelihood of being able to replace just the failed cells in a Li-Ion when most cells are still very new. I realize the batteries are totally different, but I would assume that the bundling and spot welding of the packs is perhaps similar, but that assumes the Li-Ion cells are in cans and I guess I don't even know that. Sorry, guess I'm rambling; just concerned that I might be another owner faced with paying $1 per mile just for batteries when the total cost of operating an automobile is estimated at half that by the government.

<Edit> I guess I do know the Li-Ion cells are cans similar to the NiMH cells -- Marty posted a picture. <Edit>

MTOBATTERY

01-29-2008, 10:19 PM

pam

01-31-2008, 10:26 AM

There was a slight delay in approving Jason's inital post - wanted to be sure he was legit :)

Pam

bentbiker

01-31-2008, 10:39 AM

Hello,

My name is Jason from MTO Battery. I have already spoke with a number of you. If any of you have any further questions on batteries please feel free to ask.

Warm Regards,
Jason Abel
Battery Builders / MTO Battery

Jason,
Welcome. I'm glad you took me up on my invitation to join us here. Do you have a Li-Ion battery yet, or at least on the way to you? A number of us are quite interested in what you decide/discover once you investigate it.

On that subject -- due to the number and cost of Saft cells, is it possible that there might be a chance in cases of premature failure, for MTO to actually find and replace only a cell (or few cells) rather than re-pack an entire battery? I realize we are a long way from you committing to do anything with Li-Ions, but I'm just wondering whether this might be remotely possible.

On your repacked NiMH batteries, have you gotten back any feedback/testimonials as to added range from the higher capacity cells?

itbeme

01-31-2008, 11:40 AM

to MTO as I type this. I spoke with Jason at length about battery technology, he is a wealth of knowledge. Of course, I am not an engineer, so a lot i don't understand. He did mention the new lithium nano technology that is about to break loose, sounds very promising. I would think that if when my Lions go bad I would hope that MTO will able to pack them with the nanos. They are claiming 10x the output and 1-2 hour full recharge, wouldn't that be sweet.
The upgraded NiMH with hi output cells sound like a good compromise for increased travel distance and air travel.
I think that when we get someone who is willing to with such a small group, we ought to support him, INC sure doesn't do much.
S

polo_pro

01-31-2008, 11:41 AM

Hello,

My name is Jason from MTO Battery. I have already spoke with a number of you. If any of you have any further questions on batteries please feel free to ask.

Warm Regards,
Jason Abel
Battery Builders / MTO Battery

Let me extend my welcome to you! I do hope you enjoy your time here and find the time to contribute regularly!!

ps - I'd like to inquire about the expense involved with making a pack of Li-Ions using A123 cells.

BillPaxton

01-31-2008, 01:29 PM

Hi Jason - have you heard anything about the carbon fiber-wire batteries that Braille Automotive Development has been advertising? I'm wondering if there is potential to put carbon fiber super light cells in a seg battery, but I really know nothing at all about the inner workings of batteries. Half the weight with faster recharge sounds really great.

Five-Flags

01-31-2008, 02:48 PM

Welcome to the board, Jason. I think you'll find that you are going to be the recipient of more questions on every imaginable facet of battery design, manufacture, rebuilding, compacting, expanding, and maybe even exploding than you had ever imagined possible in your wildest nightmares. Please try to bear with us as we try to learn everything in an instant!!!

As I'm sure you already realize, battery life IS the lifeblood of a Segway rider, and YOU hold the keys to the "Fountain of Youth", so to speak. So I expect you're going to be mobbed.;)

Again, welcome, and don't let us overwhelm you. It's just that we are tremendously interested in your area of expertise and we WANT to learn. Have a great day...:):):)

MTOBATTERY

01-31-2008, 06:39 PM

Wow, now thats a bunch of questions. Thanks to everyone for the welcome. I'll try to address them all but if I miss something please let me know.

Pam, I'm glad to hear you check into your members. It helps filter out true participants from the fly by night advertisers.

John, I've been contacted by a member here who said they will send one my way. Once we get it there will likely be a 2-3 week period that we will be gathering data. Hopefully then we will be able to price them for rebuild if we deem it to be a practical battery to rebuild. Replacing a few cells within a battery wouldn't be a problem except Saft/Segway used an obnoxious amount of adhesive to hold the cells in place. By doing this you have to mutilate the old cells to get them out which inherently makes it almost impossible to just pull one cell out. We also don't recommend replacing single cells like that because of inconsistancy with internal resistance, capacitance, and operating voltage. Not having these characteristics the same could cause false peaks which could trip the charger off like the battery is full when it isn't. It could also cause an unbalanced load if one section of the internal batteries has a lower internal resistance. I have received feedback from a gentleman in Kentucky who stated it had more power for climbing hills than it ever had before. I cannot attest to the condition of his batteries when he bought it so I take that statement with a grain of salt. I will however state that our NiMH are providing more power when used in other applications because of their ability to maintain a higher voltage under load which does enhance performance. I asked the customer to report back milage so I can inform you of the results.

ITBEME, It was a pleasure talking to you on the phone as well.

POLO, I am unable to provide a quote using the A123 cells yet. Once we receive the Segway Lithium battery for disection I may be able to quote this. We are very safety cautious and won't quote a rebuild unless we are certain we can do it in a safe and reliable manner. This way of business has it's benefits and drawbacks. We will never be a pace setter but we have a better QC record than most other rebuilders because of it.

Bill, I can't say I have any experience with the cells you mentioned. One thing to keep in mind. Lighter is by no means always better. At this point in the technology timeline NiMH is still a strong workhorse and in most cases will accept more charge/discharge cycles than a Lithium. We have tested our NiMH at roughly 800 charge/discharge cycles before failure. This was done at 3A charge and 10A discharge. Most lithium batteries are getting about 350 charge/discharge cycles before failure. This number can go up or down based on how old the battery is before first use. Lithium batteries start deteriorating the minute they are made so the older it is the worse the life will be. That is where we have an upper hand. We buy direct and sell direct so there is no warehousing the final product before it goes direct to the consumer which provides a fresher battery. The faster you charge any battery the shorter it's life will be due to the heat generated during this process. If a battery is charged at a moderate rate it will accept more charge and will also last longer in number of years. If someone could provide me with the charger voltage/amperage output for the NiMH and Lithium models that sure would help me out in assisting you guys.

I won't be scared off by all the questions. You may find I can only get here once a day or maybe every other day at the worst. I have a few other boards I visit and my days are normally pretty hectic.

Warm Regards,
Jason Abel
Battery Builders / MTO Battery

Madsegs

01-31-2008, 06:55 PM

output is DC 100 V 600mA
and a 12V 30ma that im sure is used for the temp feedback.

Generally the nimh (60 VH Cs3000 SAFT cells) 2x 36V takes 1-2 hours charge and then a further balancing charge of 1-2 hours to charge (remember for safety you cannot use all the juice-segway will not allow it) so it is never completely empty.

The lithium uses a 72V series connection with its own balancing and sensing onboard and likes about 5-8 hours to charge.

I have opened both but im on the other side of the lake.....
I believe that the nimh could be setup to act like a lithium by just one 72V output, but then this gives no feedback on the temp and they do get hotter when charging.

Hope this helps.

These specs are from an offboard charger. As the segway was originally designed for the NiMh this explains the much longer charging for the Lithiums

MTOBATTERY

01-31-2008, 10:35 PM

Thanks for the information Antony.

Desert_Seg

02-01-2008, 09:31 AM

...So I expect you're going to be mobbed.;) ...

Talk about an understatement. Five welcomes when our normal might reach two on a good day.

Talk about a famous fella. We need to change his designator immediately. How about "Has Batteries, Looking for Glide"

Anyway, might as well make it six. Welcome to the board, oh ye battery god...

Steven

segsurfer

02-02-2008, 01:22 AM

I would also like to extend a welcome to Jason. It's nice to have a professional enlighten us as to the inner workings of the batteries. All the whilyou using terms that don't require a phd in electrical enginering to understand.
-segsurfer

lwillis

02-03-2008, 10:40 PM

All,
It has been months since I have been on or had time to read Segway Chat. I get on and read this GREAT post of rebuilding NiMH batteries. I'm happy to report that I am STILL on my original set of batteries on both my I-167's. And If I say on the yellow or black key setting I can still get 10 miles out of them. But using the read key I get periodic and sudden shut downs once the charge indicator gets to half.

Does anyone know if there is some way to test the batteries under a load? I'm wondering if I need to get all the batteries rebuilt, or if it is possible to have one ine each set.

I remember Segway always stating that the batteries had to be replaced in pairs. I suppose it would only be logical that since the rebuily batteries use a different type of cell, that it would be prudent to have both batteries done at the same time.

I appreciate any advice and I for sure am going to contact MTO.

Desert_Seg

02-04-2008, 01:55 AM

Les,

You can replace the batteries one at a time but the Segway will only give you power / range to the ability of the lowest (weakest) battery so it makes sense to replace in pairs.

Steven

itbeme

02-05-2008, 05:39 PM

at MTO battery. I spoke with Jason this AM regarding him receiving it. He has not had a chance to get it taken apart. So phase one is complete.
I will keep you posted
S

SegWayne

02-06-2008, 01:19 PM

... How about "Has Batteries, Looking for Glide"
or "My energy, Your glide"

I also want to welcome someone who can talk tech in a language the rest of us can understand

MTOBATTERY

02-06-2008, 03:08 PM

Thanks guys for all the welcomes. I'm planning on opening the lithium battery the end of this week. I'll be sure to post our progress in this thread so everyone who would like to know has access to our status.

MTOBATTERY

02-07-2008, 10:19 AM

polo_pro

02-07-2008, 11:24 PM

I had a tech open the Lithium battery today. I think Segway made these harder to get out of the case than the NiMH models. I have a few initial concerns from what I saw but I will hopefully be able to work past them.

1. Current cost of quality replacement cells is high
2. Current availability of these cells is low (I'm looking at alternates)
3. Laser cut nickel tabs in a variety of custom configurations. We could use standard tabs but it would degrade the ability to balance the cells.

I'm sure we will find more as we go but these are the main items we saw at first glance.

Excellent...please keep up the good work! And I really appreciate you giving us your thoughts/status reports!! Don't hesitate to start quoting numbers relating to cost, since even if it's just a ballpark number it lets us all understand the process much better.

And as always....rep points for you!

ps - How much do A123 cells cost in comparison to the Saphion cells? Or were you thinking about using LiPo cells?!

MTOBATTERY

02-09-2008, 09:40 AM

I can't possibly quote pricing until I get a complete grasp on availability/current pricing. LiPo isn't an option because of the voltage difference. A123 would be a possibility but they are much more expensive. I'm currently have a RFQ in for bulk A123 as well as LiFePO4 in a brand other than Saphion. A123 are a little easier to source than the LiFePO4 cells. The problem with the LiFePO4 is that they may not be much cheaper than a new battery. There are tons of junk LiFePO4 available but there is a very limited inventory of quality cells currently on the market. I'll be sure to keep in touch with the status.

pam

02-09-2008, 10:28 AM

I think it would be a great surprise for some to find that the existing batteries are actually pretty fairly priced, given availability and technology. If that's what you find, MTO, you've also done a great service. Thanks for all your hard work, and rep points to you!
Pam

drmarty

02-12-2008, 12:03 AM

Yes, Pam

Although everyone keeps hinting or even saying that our batteries are too expensive I am glad they are going to find out very soon that that is not so. Considering there are 92 high tech Lithium Iron Phosphate cells in the pack with the circuitry and case and connector I am glad to pay what we do. My best friend just bought two Lithium batteries for his radio control plane. These are a 4s1p 5000mAh pack and it was over $250. Since our packs are 23s4p 1350mAh that means it would take over 4 of his packs to equal just the juice so we are talking way over $1000 without the circuitry and case!

So wait and see what MTO can do.

How about being able to repair revive rejuvinate (you pick a term) our dead Lithiums?

Ari and I Have had some success. We will "Fix" your dead Lithiums for $200. You pay shipping. We guarantee our work. If we can't fix them obviously, no charge. We have been trying to get batteries as you all know for some time so we can get an idea of the percentage we can fix. Since we have only gotten a few, the number we can "Fix" remains to be seen. We think it is a fairly high number. Who is first?

Marty
714 757-9799

cmonkey

02-12-2008, 12:35 PM

I still want to pick em apart and play in there.
I'll call you in the next week or two

Lion

02-12-2008, 01:48 PM

Segway makes less than $150 on each lithium battery. They are by far the most expensive, and lowest margin, components in the machines.

MTOBATTERY

02-12-2008, 01:51 PM

We have done our homework on these and do not feel that rebuilding these with Lithium Iron Phosphate cells is a practical solution. Factory batteries are comparably priced with what we would need for our rebuild services because of the customized internals. These cells simply have a track record of short life cycles and therefore would cause the possibility for excess warranty claims with a minimal profit margin to offset that. We are instead starting to engineer another pack to fit the same case. We know of other cells to be much more rugged than the Lithium Iron Phosphates and feel performance and longevity can be greatly increased.

We have the ability to raise the voltage of each indivual cell if your existing battery is just under voltage from sitting causing it not to charge. If your interested in having this done email me at sales@mtobattery.com or call 717-324-8031. We have a facility with four computer controlled battery conditioners/cyclers and two high amperage load testers with PC hookup. We can prove out your battery voltage prior to shipping. We do not repair/replace faulty circuit boards.

MTOBATTERY

02-12-2008, 01:52 PM

Segway makes way more than $150 per battery unless I get better pricing than them...

Five-Flags

02-12-2008, 02:28 PM

Segway makes less than $150 on each lithium battery. They are by far the most expensive, and lowest margin, components in the machines.

Segway makes way more than $150 per battery unless I get better pricing than them...

I think Segway is getting the batteries from China (at the moment). I don't think they're actually manufacturing them. So, they may truly have a small margin.

MTOBATTERY

02-12-2008, 07:12 PM

Pretty much all Lithium, NiCad, and NiMH come from China/Japan. Segways volume of batteries is higher than ours for that size. Their profit is without a doubt more than double the number previously stated. I have a current price quote on these cells and know the volume cut points. If they order in excess of 5000 cells they are making a fair margin. Keep in mind there is liability figured into the price which is definitely a factor with these batteries.

Five-Flags

02-12-2008, 07:26 PM

... If they order in excess of 5000 cells they are making a fair margin. Keep in mind there is liability figured into the price which is definitely a factor with these batteries.

I meant that I believe they are buying the batteries, not buying cells and assembling them.

dumkopf

02-13-2008, 07:29 PM

I meant that I believe they are buying the batteries, not buying cells and assembling them.

I have two Lithium batteries for my seg that says right on it that it was they are made in China :)

forcelite

02-13-2008, 09:14 PM

Guys whats all the excitment about repacking batteries? I thought months ago we had a thread that talked about the repacking of segway batts and I posted my results. It seems like we have done this before, but like I said I have not been here for awhile. If I remember correctly I paid $400 for a set of NHIM

Force

MTOBATTERY

02-13-2008, 09:30 PM

Wow, If someone is willing to do it for $200 a battery thats great! I can't even buy the supplies we use for that cost. I'd be concerned with what type of cell is being used but maybe what we use is just overkill.

hellphish

02-13-2008, 10:51 PM

paulie

02-14-2008, 04:13 PM

MTOBATTERY

02-14-2008, 10:27 PM

Valence makes the lithiums and the NiMH were made by Saft. Welcome to the message board. I'm fairly new here myself.

bentbiker

02-14-2008, 11:13 PM

Hey everyone,
I am sure everyone knows this already but the batteries that are in our segways are built by Valence technologies are one of the most advanced battery in the world. Using them has enabled us to get double the distance of other batteries.
Hi Paulie -- welcome.

Since you haven't filled in any of the identifying info in your profile, and your profile rightly or wrongly says you don't own a Segway, should we take your wording, "the batteries that are in our segways . . . . Using them has enabled us to get double the distance of other batteries," to mean that you work for Segway?

drmarty

02-15-2008, 12:24 AM

OK let's get a few things straight. MTO keeps talking about Segway getting batteries. I know he is new to our group so here is the real poop. Segway does not buy a single cell. Segway buys battery packs already made up by Valence. Who actually puts the two 46 cell groups and the circuit boards in the case and seals it is unknown to me but I bet it is Valence. Valence makes the Saphion cells with a proprietary technology as you know. They are Lithium Iron Phosphate cells similar but not the same as A123 System's NanoPhosphate cells which are also LiFePo4 but with some patentable differences (Nanotechnology which makes for more surface area in the Cathode I guess.) Valence makes the pack which includes the charging and balancing circuitry that MTO has now seen as well as whatever other circuitry is in the battery to tell our machines whazzup. You know, a Rev AC won't work on an i2 but the Rev A4 will work on either machine. Something is in the battery besides just the charge/balance circuitry.

I know the batteries say made in China but I am sure they are made by Valence either at their own plant or at an ISO 9001 certified plant under contract with strict controls to their exact specs. Essentially they are "making" them even if they aren't making them. Know what I mean? They don't just hunt around and buy some Chinese cells and then make the packs.

I don't know the exact in's and out's of that process but it is not like they just ask for a bid from all the Lithium battery makers and buy 5000 or 10000 cells like MTO would.

Also the latest info from Valence is our Lithium batteries have a cycle life of 600 cycles, not 350. I may be crazy (that's an opening folks) but I am pretty sure at some point we were told that the cycle life was 1000. Maybe not. Maybe that was what I was wishing for.

Lastly, my offer. I said nothing about building/rebuilding the packs. I did say "Fix" and what I mean is you send me a dead battery and I will send your battery back working. If I do I charge $200. If I don't/can't fix it there is no charge of course. If the battery "Fails" later I will fix it for free and if I can't I will refund your money. Since this is a new thing and being done to try and help everybody with those pretty black doorstops, I don't know how it will work out exactly. Like shipping costs to send them back to be re-fixed. I will be fair and we just have to see how it goes.

What I'm really trying to do is get 500 of you to send me your batteries so I can skip off with them and be the Battery King of Pago Pago.

Unfortunately the reality is I am a doctor here in Anaheim and of course am going nowhere (fast) so don't worry (too much.)

Ari is in this with me and he is also working on testing so he can magically tell you the state of your battery. The best thing to do is test it when it is new and then you can compare it's capacity as you use it (or after it is "Fixed") You can tell nothing by just checking the voltage. Riding distance is the gold standard but crap, how do you test 10 batteries? Or a 100? My feet won't last that long. I guess we'll get Polo down to ride them. He loves long distance gliding. Hold on!

We no longer have to when Ari tests them. He can print out you stats. You will know once and for all.

WOW!!!

Good luck to all.

Marty
714 757-9799

MTOBATTERY

02-15-2008, 01:02 PM

You may wish to reconsider your statement about how Segway does business. Many OEM's like Kenwood, Dewalt, Sony, Dell, and other large companies furnish all the major supplies to the contractors doing assembly so they have full control over material quality and eliminate the contractors ability to markup supplies and keep uniformity between multiple assemblers. I would be very surprised if Segway isn't doing this as well. All of our large customers are supplying us with the major materials.

You can test the batteries you fix with a load tester and just apply a load that would be comparable to what the Segway would draw. You can get one for a few hundred that will provide PC hookup/monitoring.

bentbiker

02-15-2008, 01:42 PM

Very interesting thread. I thought, in light of the various numbers floating around about the number of recharge cycles to expect, that I would search for the post where I had seen 1000 cycles quoted. Note, I readily admit that failures are often occurring after 12 months or less, so I'm only reporting what was supposedly attributed to Valence statements. Note also for the newcomers that the source of this quote is Bystander, a revered member who files every bit of data for later retrieval; he seems to go on hiatus every year to recharge his own batteries, and, sadly, hasn't been here since November.

From 10/18/2006 post by Bystander re Segfest 2006 presentation by Valence:
We also heard from Joel Sandahl, Vice President of Engineering and Product Development at Valence ,that in some cases, the existing Saphion packs could last 7-10 years (light duty use) or around 1000 full charge cycles, some possibly reaching 1500 full cycles.

If you travel by PT for 50-60 miles a week, thats about 2.5 or 3 full charge cycles per week, It would take a six to eight years to get to 1000.

Not saying all will last like this, but some may have this experience.

Are you sure you want to wait that long? - LOL!

MTOBATTERY

02-15-2008, 02:20 PM

Life cycles is a very difficult thing to discuss because there are soooo many factors that contribute to it. One weak cell, one bad cell, average amps being drawn during use (weight of rider), use in extreme temps (hot or cold), and many others.

mpupeza

02-15-2008, 04:41 PM

Question for Jason - MTO Batteries:
Since the days of NiCADs in the 60s, I believe, there was the feared 'memory effect', where these early NiCADs had to be fairly deep discharged to avoid this, where if you used them lightly between charges, that's all the power you would get after a while. Apparently, later NiCADs were made differently and did not have this effect, so claimed. People still talk about it as fact even now!
When NiMH came on the scene, with 4 or more times the capacity, we were told that there was NO 'Memory effect'! Yet now, I am advised to 'occasionally' deep discharge the batteries for longest life. I really hate to do that and am asking -
Does it help, and is it really necessary to 'occasionally' let the Segway sit in balance mode till it shuts off?

As an electronics hobbyist, and a Ham Radio Guy I often see, even to this day, much mis-information on batteries, even the flooded lead acid ones that have been around for near a hundred years.
This business of 'equalizing' the cells in NiMH I can understand in logic, it sounds good, BUT does a deep discharge do that any better than a top-up trickle charge monitored charger?

Without considering it carved in stone, what is your, and MTO's experience in this matter?

Thanks,
Mike - i167 with NiMH batteries of unknown age/condition, but working fine!

drmarty

02-15-2008, 08:56 PM

I also was there and heard the magic number of 1000 cycles. But if you go today, right now, to the Valence web site and look around you will find that they currently are stating 650 cycles to 70% charge. Whenever you talk cycles you need to also state to what condition you expect the batteries to acheive at the end of those cycles. I have often seen 80% as the state however as I said currently Valance is stating 650 cycles to 70%.

MTO:
Well I think you may very well be surprised. Comparing Segway to Dell or Kenwood or whomever is likely to be big mistake. They are a very different company as anyone here will tell you. Are you suggesting that Segway is supplying Valence with the cells and then Valence is assembling them? What are you saying?

Marty

MTOBATTERY

02-15-2008, 10:48 PM

Mike,
It is always possible to get a "memory effect" with NiCads. It is less likely with modern cells but is always possible. Any NiCad or NiMH likes to be discharged to approximately .6V per cell every now and then. Partial discharges/charges raises the internal resistance of the cells making them more difficult to fully charge. A deep discharge/full charge helps eliminate this. Overdischarging can also damage the cells so please be careful not to allow them to drain completely. Cell matching in NiMH is over-rated. We do it for the R/C guys but the difference is very minimal so much so that many people cannot tell the difference.

Marty,
I'm not saying Segway is providing Valence with anything. Segway most likely purchases the cells from Valence and then distributes them to another contractor(s) for assembly. This saves them in the ballpark of 20% on supplies that the contractor(s) would add for markup. This type of practice is standard practice when dealing with any type of volume and I can't imagine any company regardless of how different not wanting to make an extra 20% profit. Would you pay someone else a 20% markup to have them buy something you can buy yourself? Being new here I'm not very familiar with you. What is your background with batteries?

drmarty

02-16-2008, 10:39 AM

MTO

I am pretty certain that as I said, Segway gets the packs from Valance and not the cells to give to others to assemble. Since you are new here you can't be expected to know the history. And I am not going to hold class. Suffice it to say that early on Segway Inc. (or LLC) did many things like get other people to do some developement work based on projections of sales. Also if you know something about the suppliers like Valence you would see that this battery pack has their characteristics all over it. Things like the charging and balancing circuitry onboard. This is a feature they use so Lithium batteries can be "Charged" by any charger like a lead acid charger. I think this was Valence's idea and not Segway's. You will see this feature on other products Valence makes. They tout it as a feature on their website.

So MTO, Segway most likely doesn't get the cells from Valence and distributes them to others to assemble. The answer to your first question - "Would you pay someone else a 20% markup to have them buy something you can buy yourself?" is simple. I don't think you or Segway can buy Valence's cells so yes I would pay 20% to get something I can get no other way.

Come on, jump in you Segway old timers. Anybody know if Segway buys the cells from Valence and provides the cells, PCB's and cases etc. to somebody else to assemble?

What is my background with batteries? I imported Lithium Polymer Cells for the R/C industry from Korea for quite some time and sold them to Hobby Shops until they became more readily available and it became less fun. I have used them since before they became readily available in R/C. We used to buy camera packs for $60 to open and get 2 Li-ion cells to make packs for R/C. I have subscribed to Battery Power and Technology Magazine for a long time. I have educated myself a little bit about batteries, their chemistries and characteristics, charging, and follow what I can. I can write the chemical reactions of our batteries. OK I can't do that. Gotcha! Anyway is there something else you'd like to know?

Dr Marty

MTOBATTERY

02-16-2008, 09:24 PM

Valence does sell direct to businesses. I have a vendor here in the US that offers them. On board charge control/balancing is pretty much standard in all lithium laptop batteries and almost all other lithium battery packs for consumers (R/C excluded) and is not just used on Valence packs. They have to regulate it inside the battery pack as it is the only way to insure a customer cannot charge the battery at too high a voltage or amperage without modifying the battery itself. Tear apart your old lithium cell phone battery and you will find one of these circuit boards and a prismatic lithium ion cell. They charge off a "dumb" charger that has no intelligence built in as well. It's not important to me what the exact process is and who does what, it's truely irrelevant. The whole reason for my statements were to make it know that I do not agree with the statement made by another poster that Segway only makes $150. Given the price of raw materials there is at least $600 left over for profits (per battery pack) by Segway / (the mystery assembler). I would find it hard to believe that Segways profit doesn't meet or exceed Segways actual cost of a replacement should one need to be issued under warranty.

drmarty

02-17-2008, 04:04 AM

MTOBATTERY

02-17-2008, 10:17 AM

I'm done posting. You obviously know more about batteries and current pricing than I ever will. Thank you very much for enlightening me on how the real world works.

Dave Bittner

02-17-2008, 12:49 PM

And there you have it, ladies and gents. Segway Chat gets a new member with valuable insight and information, chews 'em up, spits 'em out, sends 'em on their way.

Roy Burrows

02-17-2008, 02:15 PM

mpupeze
Have you communicated with anyone who has usd rebuilt bateries in their Segway? Do you know of any U S battery rebuilding companies?
Roy

Jeeper_cj

02-17-2008, 02:37 PM

Nice job. Not!

Lawson

02-17-2008, 03:10 PM

I almost thought you were serious.

Wait, you might be serious! I am stunned! You are saying that they make the 92 cells, pack them into 2 bricks, make the circuit board, make the case, and buy a connector from Tyco, and them assemble the whole mess and ship it to New Hampshire for $200. Hmm what about their R&D? Are you including the battery R&D. We have already had at l least one new circuit board thanks to that R&D.

I do not think it is productive to post that X widget costs $Y and Joe Blow makes too much money. Wah, Wah, Wah. Most companies make a profit. Segway hasn't yet but hope springs eternal. Saying someone makes $600 profit on those batteries is just silly, really. Come on.

That's it.

Marty

What I understood him to say is that based on his experience, Segway could acquire the components necessary to assemble the battery for around $600 less than what they are selling them for. Presuming he is referring to a pair, rather than a single pack, and since Segway is listing a pair for over $1,600, I believe he is saying the raw materials could be purchased for around $1,000, not $200.

I think some of the difference maybe be simple misunderstandings between what you think Jason is saying and what he thinks your saying. I hope Jason reconsiders his decision.

bentbiker

02-17-2008, 03:14 PM

What I understood him to say is that based on his experience, Segway could acquire the components necessary to assemble the battery for around $600 less than what they are selling them for. Presuming he is referring to a pair, rather than a single pack, and since Segway is listing a pair for over $1,600, I believe he is saying the raw materials could be purchased for around $1,000, not $200.

I think some of the difference maybe be simple misunderstandings between what you think Jason is saying and what he thinks your saying. I hope Jason reconsiders his decision.
I took it exactly the same as you. Hoping Jason just meant he won't post re this debate anymore.

drmarty

02-17-2008, 05:09 PM

wow you folks take this way too seriously. Come on. It is for FUN and education. So if I think he is wrong am I supposed to not post it so I won't bruise his ego? Come on. Read his post. He says in parenthsis "per pack" and not per pair.

We absolutely need his expertise and I apologize if I hurt his feelings. But again if I disagree with his facts I think I have a responsibility to say so. Just as we need outside expertise we don't need people spreading rumors about Segway Inc without more insight. Enough people already think Segway charges too much and his posts don't help.

Love
marty

dgbint

02-17-2008, 07:16 PM

In an effort to get some of the heat out of this thread.

My fairly extensive business experience suggests that the differential between the price of parts kit to MSRP for most products is in the range 4 - 8 fold.

That means a parts list that costs $100, usually sells at MSRP of $400 - $800 for a finished product.

This margin covers the following major items;
## cost of assembly and test.
## amortisation of R&D.
## freight.
## packaging.
## allowance for warranty.
## marketing.

That's about the range out there in the real world.

Without knowing any of the figures, my feeling is that Segway is way down below this normal range, in an effort to make pricing more palatable.

So let's not confuse cost of parts and price of final product.
Who goes to work in their job for the cost of getting there plus the price of their lunch ??
Not too many.

Michael

PeteInLongBeach

02-17-2008, 10:21 PM

And there you have it, ladies and gents. Segway Chat gets a new member with valuable insight and information, chews 'em up, spits 'em out, sends 'em on their way.

I sensed this coming from the tone this thread was taking several posts ago, and now it has happened. I was looking forward to learning more, and happy that we may have found another valuable resource. I was surprised he took the time for all the postings he made, and I hope SegwayChat hasn't lost him completely now.

Some people need to curb their egos and mind their manners. This is unacceptable.

Stan671

02-20-2008, 09:37 PM

I sure hope MTO was not chased away from this entire forum. Please come back. If any poster is getting on your nerves, then just ignore him or her.

I think that what they have done to rejuvinate the practicallity of the NiMH batteries should be APPLAUDED!!!

LiIon batteries are a problem with transportation on planes and for shipping. There are none of these restrictions with NiMH.

I have several pairs of dead NiMH packs and I am sure that the majority of NiMH packs out there have probably seen better days.

My LiIon packs are now starting to decline and I have a hard time justifying $1700 for a new set. But, MTO's rebuilt NiMH batteries with all brand new cells and a higher capacity than the factory packs is manna from heaven.

Now to my very important question: Do we have anyone with these MTO rebuilds that can post a review????

woodenapple

02-22-2008, 04:30 PM

I agree that rebuilt NiMHs would be "manna from heaven". I know I will eventually have a hard time finding replacement batteries for my 'P' model segway, since it was discontinued a while back. This would be a great way to just keep "reusing" the ones I already have.

Stan671

02-22-2008, 11:11 PM

Right, for you P-ers, third party rebuilt NiMH are your only way to continue to use your machines.

Has MTO done a P-series pack yet?

What is nice is that the new cells will give you a longer range than the factory batteries.

MTOBATTERY

02-23-2008, 05:24 PM

Hello,

We have done the P series before. Our customer base is limited on the Segway batteries and unfortunately I am unable to provide names of those whom have used our services. I can tell you I am trying to get a previous customer to write a brief statement of his experiences (Range/power) of the rebuilds but he is getting up there in age and is not real computer savvy so it has proven difficult. If he can send us a letter we will scan/post it for your review.

Update on the lithium batteries. A123 cells are great for performance but will likely cause incompatability with the OEM circuitry from what our tests have shown. I'm thinking this may turn into a larger project as we would be able to rebuild this with higher quality batteries but would also need to supply a new charger to support the new cells. I'm hesitant to even offer this as it would be possible to charge them on the wrong charger and cause damage/fire. We are still working with this and are willing to invest more time/money into trying to improve the design and/or rebuild economically.

wwhopper

02-23-2008, 06:53 PM

Will be a great place to show off your products and services

W will have a lot of people with the needs for batteries because of all the usage the segs will get that week.

MTO I sent you an e-mail about SegwayFesT, please take the time to read it and let me know. There is no better place to interact with the Segway Community than at FesT.

MTOBATTERY

02-23-2008, 07:20 PM

wwhopper

02-23-2008, 07:36 PM

They did in fact forward the email to me. I will need to check my schedule but do have interest in coming/setting up and meeting the folks who attend. Would vendor areas be indoors or out? Also, is there power available? If not are generators permitted?

Vendor areas are inside of the hotel, with plenty of power for you.

And plenty of power hungery Segways too for you to demonstrate your products and services with.

It will be a great time to interact with lots of enthusiasts and Segway users, as well as folks from dealerships around the country and the manufacturer as well. Good networking.

Stan671

02-23-2008, 10:30 PM

I believe that it was at the last SegwayFest that the Valance people told us all about the internals of the Segway's Lithium batteries. Very interesting talk.

I also seem to remember them mentioning that they were going to be releasing a new cell shortly that was the exact size and shape that is used inthe Segway Lithium packs, but would have something like 50% more capacity.

Jason, are you aware of these cells? If they exist, do you think you could retrofit them into a Segway Lithium pack? This sounds like it would be the most compatable with the electronics already inside the packs and with the charging method the Segway uses.

I sure do hope you guys come to SegwayFest. I think you have an awesome product here that will be a great success in the Segway community.

MTOBATTERY

02-24-2008, 10:36 AM

I'm not aware of any high rate cells in that size that have 50% more capacity. That certainly doesn't mean that they aren't making them. I honestly think getting away from the Lithium Phosphate is the best solution, I'm just uneasy about how to impliment another solution without loosing interactivity between the Seg and the battery. We may need to purchase one for R&D :)

QuadSquad

02-24-2008, 01:05 PM

I honestly think getting away from the Lithium Phosphate is the best solution,

The very moment that battery rebuilders begin offering Segway Batteries with anything other than NiMH or Lithium Phosphate is the moment we will lose any hope of gaining approval for transporting Segways with Lithium Batteries on commercial passenger carrying aircraft.

Stan671

02-25-2008, 03:47 PM

Help me understand some of the terminology. When Segway and Valence Technology announced in 2004 the new Lithium batteries for the Segway, the cells were branded Saphion.

I just surfed around the Valence web site and they seem to have moved away from the Saphion brand and call everything Lithium Phosphate. Is that all the same thing? Is Lithium Phosphate the safe technology that does not vigorously burn up if damaged? Is that the same stuff used in the Segway Lithium batteries to this day?

Jason, when you looked to source cells for use in the Segway Lithium battery rebuilds, you could not find a cell from Valence that was the same size and chemisty, but with higher capacity? All they offered was the same cells currently used in the Segway Lithium batteries?

As I said, Valence mentioned that they were readying a higher capacity cell that was exactly the same as and completely compatable with the ones in the Segway Lithiium packs, except for the higher capacity. I recall being all enthusiastic that this could mean a new Lithium pack for the Segway with even longer range. Maybe Valence never made the new cell.

MTOBATTERY

02-25-2008, 10:49 PM

Lithium phosphate is a very general description and encompasses many varieties of lithium cells. My current price sheet (as of the end of January 08) has Saphion cells listed. They don't have any hiogher capacity ones listed but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. They may be produced under private contract, unlikely, but possible. To be honest there isn't much in that size/chemistry that is really any bigger. Other new lithium varieties like the Lithium Nano will eventually lead to vast improvements in reliability, performace, and capacity.

Isidore

02-26-2008, 04:19 AM

MTOBATTERY

02-26-2008, 12:20 PM

Exactly, I have already contacted a good friend of mine who deals in very high volume with the A123 cells. This won't be real high on his priority list but I'm certain he will be able to provide me with some ideas.

Stan671

02-26-2008, 10:17 PM

Thanks for the info, Jason.

I would still like to hear from someone that has purchased your Segway NiMH batteries and is using them in his Segway.

But I can't wait, so I will be contacting you to take you up on rebuilding a pair of my NiMH batteries. What is the turn around time on this?

Actually, I have a few dead NiMH packs. Maybe I'll get all of them upgraded and sell them at SegwayFest.

stinggray

02-27-2008, 10:20 AM

It looks like I will be the first on the forum to send Jason my batteries. They will be going out sometime this week. I will keep everyone up to date on time and performance when I get them back.

Craig

Madsegs

02-29-2008, 10:33 AM

My batteries where collected by SAFT this morning and they will be rebuilding them with the newer hi capacity cells. Expect to be testing them in 4 weeks from now, but as they built the originals im sure they will be ok. Hope i can help the segwayers in the EU with recelled NiMh soon. Cost will only be determined after the successfull recell. Will be less than lithiums for sure as here they retail at 1000$+ each. Saft has cells and internal electronics but not the casings and they would not be allowed to supply new casings even if they had. If Segway is intent on not supporting the gen ones why dont they release the patents?

Madsegs

02-29-2008, 10:53 AM

Probably the only way to encompass improved cells is to have modified electronics in the battery itself- this is how the NiMH and Lithium cells are accommodated at the same time. I don't know if this is something a third party manufacturer is willing or able to take on.
No because the use/drain is the same (unless you mean Li-ion - not sure). They will take longer to charge as the charger is a constant current charger. The newer improved cells are the same size and shape, just better a/h (+10%). Although the new cells offer 25% stronger short discharge the segway will limit you with a rumble as it always does. I have been assured by SAFT that the new cells will have no positive or negative differences except the additional range and charge time. BUT if you have been using old NiMh and forgotten what new ones are like it will make a world of difference. (like when you replaced them with Li-ions it felt great and most said they where more powerfull, no just newer....).
Best thing is that i will have a full 2 year warranty not the 1 year offered on the present unreliable segway batteries, and i can fly with them.

pam

02-29-2008, 11:17 AM

Maybe because the software components in the batteries would give clues to the base software, which is so highly secret??? Just thinking.
Pam

My batteries where collected by SAFT this morning and they will be rebuilding them with the newer hi capacity cells. Expect to be testing them in 4 weeks from now, but as they built the originals im sure they will be ok. Hope i can help the segwayers in the EU with recelled NiMh soon. Cost will only be determined after the successfull recell. Will be less than lithiums for sure as here they retail at 1000$+ each. Saft has cells and internal electronics but not the casings and they would not be allowed to supply new casings even if they had. If Segway is intent on not supporting the gen ones why dont they release the patents?

Madsegs

02-29-2008, 11:40 AM

Maybe because the software components in the batteries would give clues to the base software, which is so highly secret??? Just thinking.
Pam
No it is just temp sensors in the NiMh and connector circuitry, nothing special.
Remember that the segways are not active (off) when charging.
Extra cell balancing circuitry is incorporated in the Li-ions as the segway CSB was originally intended for NiMh and less complex.

Isidore

02-29-2008, 01:19 PM

No because the use/drain is the same (unless you mean Li-ion - not sure). They will take longer to charge as the charger is a constant current charger. The newer improved cells are the same size and shape, just better a/h (+10%). Although the new cells offer 25% stronger short discharge the segway will limit you with a rumble as it always does. I have been assured by SAFT that the new cells will have no positive or negative differences except the additional range and charge time. BUT if you have been using old NiMh and forgotten what new ones are like it will make a world of difference. (like when you replaced them with Li-ions it felt great and most said they where more powerfull, no just newer....).
Best thing is that i will have a full 2 year warranty not the 1 year offered on the present unreliable segway batteries, and i can fly with them.

I did mean lithium and NiMH as they have radically different characteristics and yet are both accomodated by the same base because of the different charging circuit within the battery. Similarly, a third type of charging circuit could accommodate improved lithium batteries.

MTOBATTERY

03-02-2008, 07:27 PM

Thats cool that Saft will do the rebuild for you. I dealt with them when they were located in Mexico. I would have never guessed they would do consumer orders because of the shear size of their company. Good information to know. I would be interested to hear their pricing. I would also be curious how they can sell internal electronics (IE:Circuit Board). This would leave me to believe they hold the patent/rights to this board not Segway...Anyone ever heard that before. I learn something new every day. Thanks for the insightful post.

Dave Bittner

03-03-2008, 10:01 AM

Here's an interesting battery-related thread from the Steadicam world -

http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7221&hl=

Interesting comments from one of the folks from Anton Bauer, one of the most popular brands of batteries for the pro video industry.

I'm wondering if anyone has heard of a Segway related battery fire, and what the real-world risks are. Seg batteries do get banged around and exposed to a variety of elements, after all, but that may not be an issue given the specific formulation or physical configuration of the packs.

Sharkie

03-03-2008, 12:48 PM

Well, when you watch the video that is on the Valence site regarding the safety of the Saphion cells, it becomes pretty apparent that a Segway battery isn't likely to catch fire. They shoot the pack several times and there is no problem, other than the obvious loss of voltage. The regular lithium pack takes one shot to get it going, and it's off to the fire races.

This is the reason that some of us are concerned about replacing the cells in a pack with different type cells. There are people working on having Segways allowed to be transported on commercial passenger flights, and putting other cells in the packs would put a quick end to that idea. Those of us that use a Segway as a mobility device would be completely out of luck then.

Jim

MTOBATTERY

03-06-2008, 02:14 PM

Sharkie

03-06-2008, 09:11 PM

Thanks, that at least puts my mind at ease. There are people working behind the scenes to get the regulations changed, and it would be a real shame to see them frustrated. Unfortunately, NiMH will not work on the second generation Segways, it's only first gen like mine that can use them.

Jim

ojflewis

03-07-2008, 10:42 AM

For anyone, like me, who knows almost nothing about battery technology, this is a nice introduction: http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=10789409&fsrc=nwlptwfree

"In search of the perfect battery
Mar 6th 2008
From The Economist print edition

Energy technology: Researchers are desperate to find a modern-day philosopher's stone: the battery technology that will make electric cars practical. Here is a brief history of their quest."

MagiMike

03-22-2008, 04:30 PM

*** Stinggray you got mail.

Jason, I'm about to pull the trigger and send you a pair of I series batteries. Question about the procedure. After I go to your site and pay the fee and shipping, do I get some kind of shipping label from you or do I just go ahead and ship them on my own?

What is the average turn around time? I'M CHEAP SO i'LL BE USING THE LOW COST SLOW SHIPPING OPTION.

And because it never hurts to ask, any kind of Segchat discount?

KSagal

03-22-2008, 06:10 PM

You are absolutely correct. The Saphion cells aren't as likely to catch fire from impact but the battery itself still isn't any safer then the other cells if shorted or heated which I believe is where the concern comes from. Can anyone enlighten me as to why Segway stopped offering NiMH all together? I understand you get more distance etc. from the lithiums but why would they stop offering a product that is required by some users to get the full Segway experience? I would think they could sell just as many NiMH now as they do lithiums and people would have an option to deal with FAA regs. I understand where the FAA and you guys are coming from. If they allow them and something would happens they would get nailed with criminal negligence for not taking action on an issue that is a known potential hazard. If they don't allow them they frustrate honest people like you guys who probably have some of the safest setups for lithiums due to the nice heavy case they are in. The current situation stinks but I do sincerely hope you guys find a way to get them on board.

I don't see lithiums being rebuilt real soon. The only way I would be willing to offer such a rebuild would be if it meets or exceeds OEM safety specs.

In your statement above, you say that the segway battery is not any safer than a different Lithium battery. Based on what?

I was lead to believe that lithium batteries may have the potential to burn, and that this burn is sustained by the oxigen in the lithium that is released, making the fire hotter, and much harder to put out. I was further lead to believe that the saphion battery would not release the oxigen the same way, and therefore would not burn in a similar manner.

I am getting from your post that you believe that the case of the segway battery has something to do with it's protection from shorting caused by impact, and I had never heard that before. I had been lead to believe, thru attending forums offered by Segway Inc. and from the battery manufacturer, that it was the chemical composition that increased the safety, not the casing.

You further said that the batteries would act the same as other cells if shorted or burned, but I ask, how do you know this? Also, in a battery such as this, how would it short, if not thru impact? Are you speaking about someone placing metal accross the terminals? Or are you speaking about batteries that are mounted on the segways...

Also, I while I do not know much about batteries, I really did believe that since these do not off gas the oxigen the same way, even in an externally started fire, they would act differently than standard Lithium cells...

Since I am mostly aware of what Segway and the Battery Manufacturer has educated me with regarding this technology, I would be interested in having you fill me in where I am missing your point.

I don't mean to be negative but much of what you have said that I have asked about is directly contrary to that we have been told for the past several years. I would like to know which version is more accurate. I presume that there is some additional factors that I am not aware of, that allows these contradictory items to actually both be true.

Segwaiian

03-22-2008, 08:12 PM

Being a five-month owner and not an engineer or electrician, these battery threads strain my brain.

But, as someone who hopes to glide for years to come, I realize the importance of these discussions about our batteries.

John Grohol posted the notice about two people from Inc.'s marketing department chatting on April 8th. Wouldn't it be great if we could have an Inc. engineer on a chat one day?

Aloha,
Roger

P.S.: Jason, I appreciate that you try to use lay language in your posts.

segsurfer

03-22-2008, 09:30 PM

MagiMike, I like the signature.
-segsurfer

MTOBATTERY

03-23-2008, 11:45 AM

MagiMike, I like the signature as well. Once you do it you will need to pay S&H to send to us. We pay to ship them back. So to answer your question there is no label to print off for sending to us.

Karl,

I struggled with my wording when typing that post and was fearful it would get misinterpreted. I neglected to add some wording in that statement when I attempted to decribe this. The Saphion cells are thicker walled and for that reason safer than standard lithiums. What I was referring to was other lithium cells like A123 and LFP batteries. These have very similar characteristics to the Saphion cells and share the same risks. Shorting can occur from a loose tabs inside the battery which arcs from making slight but not great connectivity. This generates excessive heat in that area of the battery melting the insulation off the cells. While not common this is does happen and depending on the location of thermal sensors it may/may not pick up on this immediately. Segways would not immediately shut down due to the fact there are a few cells in parallel so it would take a small amount of time for the voltage in that cluster of cells to drop off and for the board to notice this and cut it off.

The statement I made about the case is quite important. Many lithium batteries are damaged due to insufficient physical protection. The Segway's having such a thick case take impact pretty much out of the question. Also, having recessed connections configured like they do it would highly unlikely these would short out from being transported. I was just indicating that for these reasons Segways could be viewed differently by a transporter as it would not be fair to compare them to individual cells or R/C packs being transported. That is where the risk truely lies in transporting.

I appreciate your post and asking for more clarification. After reading back through your right my original post was a little misleading. Thanks for being so polite and giving me the opportunity to fix it. I type these responses and then go back through and move and try to reiterate them and sometimes I know what I want to say but don't really say it... Been told more than once by my wife I jump conversations and topics multiple times in the same sentence :)

Happy Easter Everyone!

segsurfer

03-23-2008, 11:48 AM

Happy Easter to you too Jason:)
-segsurfer

KSagal

03-24-2008, 01:09 PM

Thank you Jason for a great deal more information. You have cleared up a few questions that I had with your first post very well.

The battery cells you mentioned also share the same chemistry as the segway batteries? They just have thinner cell walls, and I believe there are about 80 cells in a segway lithium battery, right?

Is it possible to use an extra layer of care, and use the thinner cell wall cells to make a lighter battery or a smaller one, with similar range?

I have often thought that if a NiMH case was outfitted with LiIon cells, it would give the best of both, more ground clearance, and more miles than the NiMH.(but less than the current LiIons)

I would love to see this smaller cell (which would reduce the amount of lithium to levels that could ship via airliner) with a capacity to have a second set of auxiliery batteries that could be attached for longer glides. One could also remove and charge the auxilieries on the fly, making total milage available limitless, just keep swapping in fresh batteries as you glide...

MTOBATTERY

03-26-2008, 04:31 PM

Yes, same chemistry. They actually smash test this battery by shoving a nail through it with no reaction/fire being present after the test. I'm not 100% sure of the case thickness on this cell to accurately state if it has thinner walls than the valence cells. The cells I am currently sourcing will allow 5000mAh in a rebuilt lithium pack. This battery has ratings of putting out 84 continuous amps with 100 amp peaks for up to 30 second bursts. Using the new cells we would only need to have 46 cells in each case. These new cells would have the same approximate weight as the existing Saphion cells. Pricing and availability are still not known. We have samples being sourced right now. Once we have them field tested and prove them out we will release pricing.

Sharkie

03-26-2008, 08:33 PM

Marvelous! :-( So us disabled people will now not likely EVER be able to take our machines on an airplane. How wonderful that you are able to make money at this, unfortunately, it is at the expense of those that can least afford it.

Jim

BillPaxton

03-26-2008, 09:09 PM

What I missing here, Jason has been very patient explaining things to all of us.Marvelous! :-( So us disabled people will now not likely EVER be able to take our machines on an airplane. How wonderful that you are able to make money at this, unfortunately, it is at the expense of those that can least afford it.

Jim

Sharkie

03-26-2008, 09:41 PM

There has been progress in the works to have the Saphion batteries that are currently used in Segway batteries allowed on planes so that disabled Segway users can take their mobility device with them. Once the packs are refilled with NON Saphion cells, then any approval that may have been pending will be out of the question. I realize that there are some of you that want your battery packs rebuilt, but at what cost? Sure, you might be able to get away cheaper than buying packs from Segway, but as a disabled user, I won't have any chance of taking my Segway with me if I fly somewhere. It has been a struggle to try and get the Saphion cells accepted, but the effort will have been in vain once generic lithium cells are put into a Segway pack. Once again, a society can be judged by how it treats it's weakest members, and this is certainly going to hurt some of the weakest members.

Jim

BillPaxton

03-26-2008, 09:53 PM

this is odd, I dont think I've disagreed with you before Jim. I see Jason as someone that can help me get NiMHs rebuilt where Inc has turned its back on me - he's offered a solution to alot of us that can't afford thousands to upgrade. People asked for Saphs, he said OK I may be able to do that - and he decided instead of doing it free he would charge a reasonable fee...where's the problem? Use NiMH, planes like 'em, and Jason can help.

KSagal

03-26-2008, 10:19 PM

There are still more advantages than dis-advantages.

I posted a while back about the potential to have a lithium Ion battery, with a similar chemical construction as we have been talking about (the chemistry that allows it to be crushed or pierced without fire) in a smaller size...

If the NiMH which is a smaller size, is rebuilt with LiIon cells, it would have more range than NiMH, and less lithium than the current LiIons, so it may fit the current regulations.

If this option is explored, it may be easier than making it up from scratch...

In my plan, you could also eventually add auxiliery batteries, on board, so you can both comply with the FAAs per battery lithium maximum, and also have a great deal of flexibility for range...

jgrohol

03-26-2008, 10:42 PM

I just want to put a quick aside here in this thread -- this is one of our most-viewed current threads, suggesting there is a real interest in batteries for the Segway, and most importantly, finding green ways to renew or rebuild batteries.

Segway, please take note. Your customers really want an alternative to paying another $1600 or whatever the current price of lithiums are... Please help your customers find a way to do this! :)

John

Sharkie

03-27-2008, 02:24 AM

Sure, using NiMH is an option, provided you have a gen 1 machine. Gen 2 machines can't use them. Add to that, if NiMH packs are being rebuilt with lithium batteries, as Karl suggests above, then they won't be allowed either. I know it's not a big deal if you don't **NEED** a mobility device, but there are those of us that do, and this would make air travel impossible. Yes, rebuild NiMHs with higher capacity NiMH cells, I'm all for that, but stay away from screwing with lithium batteries, as that could certainly be the end of ever taking a Segway on an airplane. I don't disagree with rebuilding the packs, I just disagree with the different type of lithium cells.

Jim

MTOBATTERY

03-27-2008, 08:55 AM

Jim, I wish you would ask some further questions before directly attacking me with sarcastic remarks and implying that I don't care about the disabled members. The destructive testing that is done on these cells is just as brutal as what is done with the Saphions. In fact, the owner of the company I am dealing with was previously an engineer for Valence who decided to start his own company and offer similar products. He assured me that his cells will exceed Valences safety standards. Additionally, by rebuilding them the charge capacity will stay the same but the volume of lithium will actually slightly decrease as we would be using less cells inside therefore providing even more leverage for getting them through the FAA. Rebuilding NiMH with Lithiums isn't something we can do because of liability purposes and safety concerns. I'm here to work with all members and their needs and am not out to ruin anyones opportunities. I'm sorry if you don't feel I'm being sincere with that statement but it is the truth.

segsurfer

03-27-2008, 10:06 AM

Don't worry Jason, I use the segway as a mobility device, and while I can understand peoples concerns about dealing with the legal system about repacked batteries, my gratitude exceeds my concern. Don't feel like you are at risk for being lambasted by disabled users. I am exceedingly grateful for all the information you have continued to provide us.
-segsurfer

MTOBATTERY

03-27-2008, 10:43 AM

Thanks Segsurfer, I thought this may actually improve the chances of getting onboard planes but was completely shocked by what I read when I logged in here this morning. I truely understand the concerns as well. Ultimately less lithium is likely the only way they will get onboard which is the direction I'm heading.

jryan

03-27-2008, 11:35 AM

I apologize if this was already mentioned, I have not had much of a chance to read this whole thread but I have an idea. Maybe you should work with dealers and owners to form a recycling program. Something where you buy (for a small price) their dead batteries, rebuild them, and sell them. I am sure there are several dead Segway batteries justs sitting somewhere. You could offer a trade in as well where you sell the rebuilt ones and then discount them a little for an exchange of dead ones. Maybe you've looked into this, I'm just an entrepreneur (in spirit) and saw an opportunity there. It's just a thought!

Jeremy Ryan

Sharkie

03-27-2008, 01:26 PM

KSagal

03-27-2008, 01:49 PM

I'm sorry you feel that way Jason, but from my point of view, this could very well bring a halt to being able to take my mobility device on a plane. I have little doubt about your claims of being as safe as Saphion cells, however, look at it with an objective eye from the standpoint of a regulator. These packs originally come with Saphion cells, and that has been worked on to have them allowed on planes. Now all of a sudden, someone is changing the cells. Sure, yours may well meet the same safety standards as Saphion, but what about the next guy? Also, getting Saphion cells approved is one thing, now there's a whole new type of cell, and really no way to tell what cells are in the pack. From the standpoint of someone who controls the regulations, all of a sudden, what seemed like a simple approval becomes very complex, and all but impossible to enforce. When that happens, the only option left is to not allow Segways on aircraft. I see this as an issue, but obviously, others don't seem to care, so I'm outta here. I know there are others that see this for the problem it can be, but I'm just tired of beating my head against a wall.

I have done some work with the government on several levels, and it is my understanding that they are unlikely to offer a rule or legislation that specifies one company. The concept of trying to get Saphion cells (I thought that was a brand name) is not something that I believe is likely...

What I would think is more likely is that a standard must be set, and that manufacturers that wished to would build to that standard. The standard specified in a FAA rule or some legislation might specify the amount of Lithium allowed (like the current rules) or acceptable technology (like lithium Ion polimer, but not Lithium standard cells) or some other technology based rule, as opposed to a specific company based rule...

This is where EPAMD comes from. To the best of my knowledge, a segway is the only EPAMD. Still, Segway is not mentioned much, and if it is, only as an example. The rules and legislations only state EPAMD.

Now, the definition for an EPAMD is basicly a description of a segway. But surely some colleges and others have made one-offs of similar machines (Blackwell anyone?) and they would likely be able to benifit from EPAMD laws as well.

I believe the battery rules of the future will follow this pattern. An acceptable battery for flight will have the following requirements:... Then they describe the Saphion packs... IF someone else builds to the same specified rules, it is in. If not, or if Vallence offers an new technology that does not comply, and still calls it Saphion (Saphion 2?) it may not comply...

RAG1247

03-27-2008, 01:59 PM

although it does not please me, i think we all will be a lot older before segway lithium batteries will be alllowed on passenger aircraft

MTOBATTERY

03-27-2008, 03:45 PM

segsurfer

03-27-2008, 04:20 PM

The other concept I have been toying with was to try and dice up the battery into multiple smaller pieces so they can be individually bagged, protected, and placed in carry on like is defined in the regs but then re-assembled once at your destination. This would end up being like 10 individual battery packs to make a pair. This may be another option but this may prove difficult as well and may make you look like the unibomber at the airports...especially if you tape them to your chest :)
If/when we finally convert you and you get a seg:), try out that concept and tell us how it works out:D.
-segsurfer

MTOBATTERY

03-27-2008, 05:22 PM

Smarty pants :) I was waiting to see who would rake me through the coals first. It would have to be a conversion where the case lid become a screw together setup. Then the internals could be a drop in and plug together setup after you reach your destination. Not out of the question but the big question is how much is it truely worth? There would be a lot of time involved to create such a setup.

Segsurfer, I think as long as you went into the airport holding a joystick handle with a red button on top you would be fine....I don't see the problem.

BTW: I want a Seg but my wife has been brow beating me every time we talk about it. The problem is that I'm getting a motorcycle this spring also...

Segwaiian

03-27-2008, 09:48 PM

At the rate lithium battery technology is changing that may or may not be a true statement. They have made leaps and bounds in the past two years. I think Karl brings a valid point that the only way to beat these rules for now is to comply with the volume of lithium per battery pack. Possibly future rules/regs will allow other avenues but I think lowering the lithium volume per battery is the only way. The other concept I have been toying with was to try and dice up the battery into multiple smaller pieces so they can be individually bagged, protected, and placed in carry on like is defined in the regs but then re-assembled once at your destination. This would end up being like 10 individual battery packs to make a pair. This may be another option but this may prove difficult as well and may make you look like the unibomber at the airports...especially if you tape them to your chest :)

Jason, Jason, Jason.

A history lesson is in order. Ted (This is how Montanans referred to the Unabomber, since he was captured in a little shack in the woods outside Libby, MT) specialized in mail bombs.:D:D:D

I think you're on the right track. I know this is a very emotional issue for those gliders with mobility issues, but I think Karl's right as far as how the Feds would regulate lithiums on planes.

Aloha,
Roger

segsurfer

03-27-2008, 09:52 PM

KSagal

03-27-2008, 10:56 PM

Jason, get your motorcycle, and then get your wife a seg...after she has begun riding and enjoying the seg, just start dropping subtle hints about how much fun you two could have gliding together, and how it would provide a common hobby, and is something you could enjoy together...pretty soon she will feel guilty about passing up something you could enjoy together, and next thing you know you'll have the green light to get another seg:D. That way you and your wife will have a set of his and hers segs. This plan is guaranteed to work 100% of the time 60% of the time...unless of course you wife reads segwaychat.:D
-segsurfer

Or maybe he could get his motorcycle, and give her a seg... then when she is gliding, he can buzz by, and yell at her that she is lazy and should be walking... when she complains, tell her that you need to get a seg as well to be with her and protect her...

After you wake up from the coma she will put you in, you can assess the plan, and make up a new one if needed...

drmarty

03-28-2008, 02:51 AM

An important point is that FAA regs are not promulgated in a vacuum. It turns out that they in general have to conform to the United Nations regulations, the ICAO, the IATA, and the IMDG regulations that airlines around the world follow as well as the DOT, USPS and well you see the problem. It is not as simple as just getting the FAA to acquiesce.

Here is a link to the Regulations. It is very complex.

http://www.ultralifebatteries.com/documents/whitepapers/Ultralife_Batteries_Lithium_Battery_Transportation _Regulations.pdf

I believe our cells which are 1350mAh or 1.35 Ah would be considered to contain .405 grams of lithium and the pack with 92 cells would have 37.26 grams of Lithium - FORBIDDEN - and this is by the New - Aug 07 regs. They are clearly over the 25 gram limit.

I think for the forseeable future Gen II machines are grounded. These are the "new" regs. I hope and pray I am wrong.

By the way you should read the part about the UN tests they have to pass. Charge at twice the max recommended rate for 24 hours and watch for 7 days??????? Discharge tests, temp change tests, drop tests - well just look at the reg so graciously provided by Ultralife by the way.

Also Karl, the packs we currently use are that size because of the physical size of the cells. They are standing on end. Shorter cells (with similar chemistry) may be made by someone but A123's cells are the same size. There are a number of companies getting into the act with this chemistry which is relatively new, with initial patents to Dr Goodenough in Texas in the late 1990's like 1998. This and similar chemistries developed since are being licensed by most large universities like MIT and Carnegie Melon and Perdue I think.

Remember that anything at all that is done has to center around the circuit board in the current battery packs. If you think Segway or Valence is going to tell you anything about that board you are nuts. So we are left with a board we can not test. So you make a pack of brand X cells and solder the 30 or so wires from the pack to the board and stick it on a charger or a Segway to see if the light turns green. If yes, you dance. But more likely it will not work. Then is it because of the board, or the cells, or the phase of the moon? Did you let a little stray electricity into the board? While hooking up all those powered up cells? I have tried to put some back together. Good luck!

That is why I shifted my energy to "Saving" the dead Lithiums.

New higher capacity cells might help but remember the amount of Lithium is calculated on capacity so hypothetically if you had a cell with twice the capacity it would still count as 2 of our cells. No net gain. Like the cells Jason seems to be talking about from another vendor. Fewer, lighter cells does no good if the CAPACITY is more. 0.3 times the capacity in Ampere hours times the number of cells.

OH well.

Marty

KSagal

03-28-2008, 09:27 AM

Thanks Marty,

That was very educational. I am learning more about batteries than I ever thought I would ever want to know...

So am I to understand that the NiMH cells are shorter? Are they also on end?

I had thought that they were on their side in packs, so this is new information...

Still, I believe that a battery can be created that is approximately 1/2 the current strength of our LiIons, it would be a bit more powerful than the NiMH and still have a small enough Lithium to comply with the 25 grams.

If a person were to choose this lesser capacity battery, then an option for an on board auxiliary battery system might be a well received one.

jryan

03-28-2008, 10:41 AM

This is very interesting. I knew nothing about batteries before....... Thanks you all!!

Jeremy Ryan

BillPaxton

03-28-2008, 11:40 AM

Here is the NiMH layout:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/icarus256/NiMH.jpgThanks Marty,

That was very educational. I am learning more about batteries than I ever thought I would ever want to know...

So am I to understand that the NiMH cells are shorter? Are they also on end?

I had thought that they were on their side in packs, so this is new information...

Still, I believe that a battery can be created that is approximately 1/2 the current strength of our LiIons, it would be a bit more powerful than the NiMH and still have a small enough Lithium to comply with the 25 grams.

If a person were to choose this lesser capacity battery, then an option for an on board auxiliary battery system might be a well received one.

drmarty

03-28-2008, 04:22 PM

Karl,

Yes, NiMH cells used by us are called Sub "C" size and are shorter and fatter. There are many many sizes of NiMH available.

Unfortuantely there are not as many sizes of Lithium Ion cells readily available using the chemistry we do. You could lay them on the side in various arrangments but, well the complexity rises.

769
This is what one half of the Lithium cells looks like with the connectors spot welded to the cells

768
This is with the connectors removed showing the 46 cells

767
And here is a close up showing that the cells are cast with resin into a brick. Solid! No chance of replacing cells. Period.

Marty

Segwaiian

03-28-2008, 05:42 PM

Nice photos, Dr. Marty.[:O] And good background.

Jason, given what Dr. M. writes, would it be possible to build a battery pack with less than 25 grams of lithium (That's for two batteries, I assume)? While that would mean decreased range, it would allow gliders with mobility issues to take their gen2s on airplanes. I hope (There's still a bureaucracy to deal with).

Aloha,
Roger

segsurfer

03-29-2008, 12:45 AM

MTOBATTERY

03-29-2008, 03:50 PM

***Disclaimer, I am seriously drugged up from a recent surgery (not motorcycle or Segway related) and cannot be held accountable for the slur of words and phrases I am going to attempt to put together. Read below at your own risk and please laugh if I write something stupid***

The lithium cells are 18650 size and run about 2.5" long. The industry standard for figuring out volume of lithium in the cells is by using a .3 multiplier on the capacity which is exactly what was done in the previously mentioned lithium volumes. Sub-C cells are roughly 1-5/8 (going on memory). This is what gives you roughly 7/8" less ground clearance. The other contributing factor to less ground clearance is the fact that the circuit board in the lithium battery is 3x the size and therefore has to lay on top of the cells. In the NiMH packs they can be much smaller and are located beside the cells so no effect on ground clearance.

There are smaller versions of the lithium cells that can be used but the problem is you will need to add many extra to gain the amperage output required. Doing so would counteract your goal. A more practical solution is to go with a larger cell and less of them. This is what we are will be doing for our first test. The larger cells have a higher output amperage and require less in parallel to perform.

Long story short. A smaller battery can be made that is less than 25g of lithium per battery but I don't think it could be done/or would be practical to build a pair with 12.5g or less. Then the problem would be how do you prove this at airports?