Segway Batteries

[dumkopf]

I am a newbie to this forum, so I may have done something wrong in my posting of a new thread that may have gone in the "for sale" sub forum. So here is another try.

Is there a difference between the Lithium and nickle metal hydride batteries that would make them incompatible with the outboard charger? And maybe the segways such as an e-series?

I have two lithium batteries purchased used which don't charge on my outboard charger, but I am able to charge them by other means.

I notice that the Nickle batteries are wired 2x36 volt whereas the lithiums are single 1x73.2 volts

In other words, there are several differences observed in the battery connectors between the lithium and the nickle metal hydride batteries.

Also, they are physically different where the lithiums have the 1 inch gridded edge on the "flat" side of the battery (trailing edge of the front battery) that prevents one from mounting on an e-series segway.

I have not found anything on the segway.com except that they seem to be indicated to be compatible all the way around.

------------- :)

[RAG1247]

I am a newbie to this forum, so I may have done something wrong in my posting of a new thread that may have gone in the "for sale" sub forum. So here is another try.

Is there a difference between the Lithium and nickle metal hydride batteries that would make them incompatible with the outboard charger? And maybe the segways such as an e-series?

I have two lithium batteries purchased used which don't charge on my outboard charger, but I am able to charge them by other means.

I notice that the Nickle batteries are wired 2x36 volt whereas the lithiums are single 1x73.2 volts

In other words, there are several differences observed in the battery connectors between the lithium and the nickle metal hydride batteries.

Also, they are physically different where the lithiums have the 1 inch gridded edge on the "flat" side of the battery (trailing edge of the front battery) that prevents one from mounting on an e-series segway.

I have not found anything on the segway.com except that they seem to be indicated to be compatible all the way around.

------------- :)

it has always been my thoughts that segway's off board charger is completely compatible with both li-on and NiMh batteries - I have charged both types using my offboard charger

[dumkopf]

It's possible, I guess that my "used" lithium batteries could somehow be old incompatible design. They were advertised as "from a military surplus" sale in Hawaii and sold on eBay by a seller as "as is" sale.

That would imply that they are an older design that are no longer sold. But they do look similar to what I see in the segway.com site.

But even though the battery connector fits on the outboard charger, it displays solid red on one and "no display" (off) on the other one when they are both pluged into the charger at the same time. That was before I new they were different voltages and befor they were charged by some other means, I noticed that the terminal voltage of the lithiums as stated above is 73.2 volts whereas the NiMh batteries are 2x36 vdc common ground.

So I am perplexed to plug the batteries into the outboard charger now that they have a partial charge on them since the higher voltage could do something bad to the charger.

I guess I'll never know unless someone here can say whether there are some "older" incompatible Lithiums out there in the wild.

[dgbint]

The off-board ( and on-board ) chargers are universal.
They support newer ( Li-ion ) and older ( NiMH ) batteries.

They can't support a mixed pair, you must use both types the same at any point in time.

If any batteries are old, 'as-is' there is the possibility ( probability ? ) that the batteries have failed, have been damaged or are beyond their useful life.

Do you have the opportunity to meet with a fellow Seg'r to swap and check which bits work with other machines ?

Michael

[jgbackes]

Also it might help if you posted the battery series for us. I assume that the stickers are still on the batteries. I also replied to your other post. I have an e-167 that has the firmware upgrade to support Li-ion batteries. You may have to make a trip to your dealer to get the upgrade. Use the search feature for tips on finding out what version firmware you segway has.

[polo_pro]

You might consider posting some pictures. At the very least, you should transcribe all the labels on the battery into a reply in this thread.

My best guess (and it's only a guess) is that you may have batteries that went onto an RPM or military version of the segway. I've never heard of an iBOT using Li-Ions.

One more piece of information you need to provide us if you want help is how you successfully charged them. Your OP says that you can't charge using the OBC, but you did manage to "charge them by other means".

[KSagal]

First off, you have a couple different things going on at the same time...

Lets start with the physical case of the segway batteries.

The NiMH batteries are about 3 inches thick, and when mounted to the e series, there is a metal portion of the bottom of the segway that is visable from underneath, between the batteries.

The LiIOn batteries are about 4 inches thick, and when mounted to the e series, there is a small ledge of plastic that reaches over the bottom center of the seg, so the two batteries appear to cover the entire bottom of the seg...

They did this, because if they had used the thicker batteries, and not covered that center area, there would have been a void between the batteries that may have been able to get stuck, like if you bottomed out on the edge of a curb or something...

Because of this, I suspect that your description of the slightly larger LiIons than NiMH batteries makes sense, including the extra plastic lip.

Next, there are no real batteries out there that are an earlier design. There have only been two possible battery configurations for the e series, and we have just talked about both of them.

There is a smaller battery for the P series, which I suspect you know.

THe LiIOns are a sensitive battery, and it can be damaged by not charging it for too long, or allowing it's voltage to get too low. Many of these problems were corrected in the later versions of the battery, where they were made to be more self protective.

Segway only makes one off board charger, and it workes for all segway i or e series batteries.

I suspect you bought bad batteries. The red light seems to indicate that. Maybe there are some bad cells. (The batteries are made up of tens of smaller cells to make the big battery you see...)

[SegDog]

Hello,

My quest (non-engineer)to gain full knowledge of batteries keeps hitting speed-bumps, but is getting there. Following are my points for discussion:

1. the charger is in the battery case.

2. the CSB (Gen1), Control Console (Gen2) contains the electronics, transformer (240V to 120V) power conditioning and recognition circuitry.

3. Batteries must have a certain voltage present to allow the "recognition circuitry" to continue to feed the charger.

I don't have an OBC and would like to know if anyone has more knowledge to share. Systems that I worked-with previously had this set-up

friendly neighborhood SegDog

[dumkopf]

The off-board ( and on-board ) chargers are universal.
They support newer ( Li-ion ) and older ( NiMH ) batteries.

They can't support a mixed pair, you must use both types the same at any point in time.

If any batteries are old, 'as-is' there is the possibility ( probability ? ) that the batteries have failed, have been damaged or are beyond their useful life.

Do you have the opportunity to meet with a fellow Seg'r to swap and check which bits work with other machines ?

Michael
I glide around the area a lot with my wife (p-series) which runs longer. We have only seen maybe, 3 seg's other than ours in the 4 years we've had ours. A surprise, for sure.

We have great paths and quiet areas great for segs. Nobody, much has 'em around here.

[dumkopf]

Hello,

My quest (non-engineer)to gain full knowledge of batteries keeps hitting speed-bumps, but is getting there. Following are my points for discussion:

1. the charger is in the battery case.

2. the CSB (Gen1), Control Console (Gen2) contains the electronics, transformer (240V to 120V) power conditioning and recognition circuitry.

3. Batteries must have a certain voltage present to allow the "recognition circuitry" to continue to feed the charger.

I don't have an OBC and would like to know if anyone has more knowledge to share. Systems that I worked-with previously had this set-up

friendly neighborhood SegDog
I have finally opened up one of the batteries and what a surprise! Now I am an engineer too with a fairly espert knowledge of electronics.

What I see is a large mother board as big as the top of the battery with hi tech surface mount technology.

If you are careful when you open one, you can do it without damage beyone re-assembly.

The battery is arranged as six groups of ten cells, each group is ~12volts. There is a monitoring circuit for each of the six groups. The six group monitors are then logically connected to two output chips, possibly a processor or static logic element, and some other support chip, perhaps a complex voltage regulator.

The elements of one of six group monitors include a logic circuit, don't know at this point if it's analog or digital controller. There are many discrete transistors associated with each group monitor.

The battery i/o connector consists of 4 larger pin-sockets in the middle that connect the power to the battery. On the lithium described here, there are only two of the pin/sockets connected (used) where the terminal voltage of the battery measures 72.5 volts as listed in the battery lable. This circuit is fused by two fuses, one a typical small round fuse, probably 20 amps or so. The other is surface mounted on the mother board, both appear to be in the main battery circuit.

As for the motherboard controller, it appears to be fully connected and powered by the segway or OFC via the smaller pins in the top and bottom rows of the battery i/o connector. All the the smaller pins appear in the NiMH battery connector, but only about half of the pins are populated in the Lithium connector. There appear to be only 5 actual wires between the mother board and the external chargers via the battery i/0 connector on the Lithium.

I have not opened a NiMH so I can't say if there are more connections to that one's motherboard. But I have noted basic electrical differences between the Lithium power i/o connections from the NiMH connections. The Lithium has only two of the four power pin/sockets in the center of the connector populated and those measure 60 - 72 vdc depending on charge condition of the single series battery bank.

The NiMH power connector has all four of these large pins populated and measure as a pair of 36 vdc battery banks with common gound, I believe, as I remember it. I don't think the positive connection is common, but there is no combination of these four pins that measure 72 vdc. That to me is a very basic difference between the two battery types. This cause me to worry about trying to plug my OBC onto the battery after I have charged it by external veriable regulated power supply. If not compatible then it would really blow the OBC and may pop the fuses in the battery. I may gain confidence in this later, especially if someone on the board here has solid infomation about this.

Well that it, for now. I may post another message if more is learned about these. There is no assurance that my batteries are production batteries, because of the way I bought them off eBay. They look real enough with Segway Labels and warnings, etc. But as I noted above, they don't fit mechanically on the e-series because of the plastic one inch combs on the trailing edge of the battery. This is referenced to the front battery, the rear battery would be the leading edge, so that the face each other.

That's as much as I remember now, but maybe moretocome if there is interest.

[dumkopf]

Also it might help if you posted the battery series for us. I assume that the stickers are still on the batteries. I also replied to your other post. I have an e-167 that has the firmware upgrade to support Li-ion batteries. You may have to make a trip to your dealer to get the upgrade. Use the search feature for tips on finding out what version firmware you segway has.
My Segway has 12.0 firmware. I need to get an upgrade, but it has been working great as is. I will pursue a new set of batteries and fw upgrade at the local dealer. Just never taken the time for that and they are very expensive. But last year was a little lax on battery charge, so a new set is in order.

The labels on the batteries are:

Lithium -

SEGWAY SAPHION Technology Li Ion
73,6vdc 5.2 A-hr

I believe the capacity of the Li Ion's are very good and would love to put them on my e, but would require some mechanical fitting by removing the two "combs" on the flat edge.

NiMH -

ACROS
2x36v 3.0Ah

Thanks to everyone for all the commentary. Please don't hesitate to leave more comments - every little bit helps! :)

Ray

[dumkopf]

First off, you have a couple different things going on at the same time...

Lets start with the physical case of the segway batteries.

The NiMH batteries are about 3 inches thick, and when mounted to the e series, there is a metal portion of the bottom of the segway that is visable from underneath, between the batteries.

The LiIOn batteries are about 4 inches thick, and when mounted to the e series, there is a small ledge of plastic that reaches over the bottom center of the seg, so the two batteries appear to cover the entire bottom of the seg...

They did this, because if they had used the thicker batteries, and not covered that center area, there would have been a void between the batteries that may have been able to get stuck, like if you bottomed out on the edge of a curb or something...

Because of this, I suspect that your description of the slightly larger LiIons than NiMH batteries makes sense, including the extra plastic lip.

Next, there are no real batteries out there that are an earlier design. There have only been two possible battery configurations for the e series, and we have just talked about both of them.

There is a smaller battery for the P series, which I suspect you know.

THe LiIOns are a sensitive battery, and it can be damaged by not charging it for too long, or allowing it's voltage to get too low. Many of these problems were corrected in the later versions of the battery, where they were made to be more self protective.

Segway only makes one off board charger, and it workes for all segway i or e series batteries.

I suspect you bought bad batteries. The red light seems to indicate that. Maybe there are some bad cells. (The batteries are made up of tens of smaller cells to make the big battery you see...)
Thanks for the two comments!

I have not actually tried to put the Li Ion batteries on my e. The battery appears to be the same size as the NiMH, but the "lip" makes it too big. I'll try it, since the confidence is high that it is compatible.

I did charge the battery by external power supply and it has lot's of capacity and the voltage seems to indicate that there are no dead cells. We'll see.

Thanks for you help! :)

Ray

[Desert_Seg]

Ray,

I repeat what everybody else has stated. There are only TWO battery series for the e / i series. Your batteries, with the honeycomb leading edge, will fit on your unit. Could you please post pictures as to why you think they don't fit?

As far as there being different batteries for the RMP, my knowledge is that the RMP batteries are the same as those used on the i / e / x series.

BTW, where are you located?

Steven

[Desert_Seg]

I have finally opened up one of the batteries and what a surprise! ... If you are careful when you open one, you can do it without damage beyone re-assembly. ...

There are pictures of a fully opened LIon in my album. Take a look at them if you are interested.

DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT put the opened battery back on your Segway. There is a very HIGH chance you could short out the CSB, a fix that will cost you more than $700.

Sad to say but I would just throw that open LIon away (or send it to Marty who is tinkering as we speak!).

Steven

[dumkopf]

You might consider posting some pictures. At the very least, you should transcribe all the labels on the battery into a reply in this thread.

My best guess (and it's only a guess) is that you may have batteries that went onto an RPM or military version of the segway. I've never heard of an iBOT using Li-Ions.

One more piece of information you need to provide us if you want help is how you successfully charged them. Your OP says that you can't charge using the OBC, but you did manage to "charge them by other means".
I posted the labels above just a few minutes ago.

The batteries were connected to my OBC before I charged them by external variable power supply. Since then, I have not had the nerve to reconnect them to my OBC since they now have a big charge in them that is apparently twice the voltage of the NiMH battery. I take another look at that. Maybe I made a mistake and the NiMH is really just two 36 vdc banks that can be series connected. I thought one of the pairs of big power pins were connected together internally and therefore made a common connection.

Also, maybe if I am lucky, the batteries will now charge since there is some charge in it. Originally, there was 0 vdc on one battery and that one had on red or green led on the OBC. The other battery measured about 12 vdc across it's terminals and that one showed the solid red led on the OBC.

BTW, I did successfully charge them with a variable power supply adjusted to 70 vdc current limit to 3 amps. As the batteries charged up, the current tapered off to nil. They may take more charge, but I don't want to overdo it, because there could be an explosion or at least cause the seals to vent on the cells, if I allow them to get over charged with the high pressures that develop in cells like these when the reach nearly charged condion. When I was a kid, I was charging up some NiCad D cells when they exploded because I must have been charging them too quickly at maybe too high voltage.

Thanks!

Ray


moretocome...

Ray

[Desert_Seg]

... I did charge the battery by external power supply and it has lot's of capacity and the voltage seems to indicate that there are no dead cells. We'll see. ...

Ray,

A bad battery may indicate full voltage but the controller board could be bad.

Additionally, while I don't have enough information to be positive, you may have a bad CSB. This manifests itself in that it shows green lights and looks as if it is charging the batteries but it isn't, which is evident when you go to start / run the unit.

Steven

[dumkopf]

Ray,

I repeat what everybody else has stated. There are only TWO battery series for the e / i series. Your batteries, with the honeycomb leading edge, will fit on your unit. Could you please post pictures as to why you think they don't fit?

As far as there being different batteries for the RMP, my knowledge is that the RMP batteries are the same as those used on the i / e / x series.

BTW, where are you located?

Steven
Thanks. I'll post pictures of the batteries. I am located near the dealer in Annapolis, MD, but have not yet taken the time to visit there. The Lithium batteries are very expensive. I paid little for these two as a chance on an "as is" deal on eBay. It's hard to justify the $1500 it will take to get a new pair. But maybe next summer.

Ray

[dumkopf]

Ray,

A bad battery may indicate full voltage but the controller board could be bad.

Additionally, while I don't have enough information to be positive, you may have a bad CSB. This manifests itself in that it shows green lights and looks as if it is charging the batteries but it isn't, which is evident when you go to start / run the unit.

Steven
I don't have any way of knowing whether the internal motherboard is good or bad and that could be the problem. The battery behaves very well otherwise as an external battery only. I'll re test the voltages on the NiMH and if I can somehow see 72vdc on the same pair of pins that have 72 vdc on the Li Ion, then I'll try it again.

Ray

[dumkopf]

There are pictures of a fully opened LIon in my album. Take a look at them if you are interested.

DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT put the opened battery back on your Segway. There is a very HIGH chance you could short out the CSB, a fix that will cost you more than $700.

Sad to say but I would just throw that open LIon away (or send it to Marty who is tinkering as we speak!).

Steven
I plan on re sealing the battery with silicon resin when I'm done. I'll look for your pictures. Where are the albums?

[bentbiker]

I have finally opened up one of the batteries and what a surprise! Now I am an engineer too with a fairly espert knowledge of electronics.

What I see is a large mother board as big as the top of the battery with hi tech surface mount technology.

If you are careful when you open one, you can do it without damage beyone re-assembly. How did you do this?

The battery is arranged as six groups of ten cells, each group is ~12volts. There is a monitoring circuit for each of the six groups. The six group monitors are then logically connected to two output chips, possibly a processor or static logic element, and some other support chip, perhaps a complex voltage regulator.

The elements of one of six group monitors include a logic circuit, don't know at this point if it's analog or digital controller. There are many discrete transistors associated with each group monitor.

The battery i/o connector consists of 4 larger pin-sockets in the middle that connect the power to the battery. On the lithium described here, there are only two of the pin/sockets connected (used) where the terminal voltage of the battery measures 72.5 volts as listed in the battery lable. This circuit is fused by two fuses, one a typical small round fuse, probably 20 amps or so. The other is surface mounted on the mother board, both appear to be in the main battery circuit.

As for the motherboard controller, it appears to be fully connected and powered by the segway or OFC via the smaller pins in the top and bottom rows of the battery i/o connector. All the the smaller pins appear [to be used] in the NiMH battery connector, but only about half of the pins are populated in the Lithium connector. There appear to be only 5 actual wires between the mother board and the external chargers via the battery i/0 connector on the Lithium.

I have not opened a NiMH so I can't say if there are more connections to that one's motherboard. But I have noted basic electrical differences between the Lithium power i/o connections from the NiMH connections. The Lithium has only two of the four power pin/sockets in the center of the connector populated and those measure 60 - 72 vdc depending on charge condition of the single series battery bank.

The NiMH power connector has all four of these large pins populated and measure as a pair of 36 vdc battery banks with common gound, I believe, as I remember it. I don't think the positive connection is common, but there is no combination of these four pins that measure 72 vdc. That to me is a very basic difference between the two battery types. This cause me to worry about trying to plug my OBC onto the battery after I have charged it by external veriable regulated power supply. If not compatible then it would really blow the OBC and may pop the fuses in the battery. I may gain confidence in this later, especially if someone on the board here has solid infomation about this.

Well that it, for now. I may post another message if more is learned about these. There is no assurance that my batteries are production batteries, because of the way I bought them off eBay. They look real enough with Segway Labels and warnings, etc. But as I noted above, they don't fit mechanically on the e-series because of the plastic one inch combs on the trailing edge of the battery. This is referenced to the front battery, the rear battery would be the leading edge, so that the face each other.

That's as much as I remember now, but maybe moretocome if there is interest.
Ray,

You say you opened up a lithium ion battery, but your description would seem to indicate it is NiMH. Twelve NiMH cells in series are 12v, but Li-ion cells are 3.2v each. Li-ion batteries have previously been described as being made up by 23 segments, with each segment comprised of 4 cells wired in parallel. Each segment is connected in such a way that all segments can be balanced.

The NiMH batteries have previously been described as 60 cells as you observed. That is six segments of 10 cells with everything in series and no charge balancing.

You also may want to check out http://www.updesigns.com/battery_controller1.htm . They helped with the original battery design.

I'm really confused by what you report, including the ease with which you say you opened the battery case. I believe it has been previously reported that it was nearly impossible to open a case without destroying it.

[MagiMike]

I'll look for your pictures. Where are the albums?


Top of the page to right of logo and title of segway chat -> clink on "PHOTOS"

[dumkopf]

Ray,

You say you opened up a lithium ion battery, but your description would seem to indicate it is NiMH. Twelve NiMH cells in series are 12v, but Li-ion cells are 3.2v each. Li-ion batteries have previously been described as being made up by 23 segments, with each segment comprised of 4 cells wired in parallel. Each segment is connected in such a way that all segments can be balanced.

The NiMH batteries have previously been described as 60 cells as you observed. That is six segments of 10 cells with everything in series and no charge balancing.

You also may want to check out http://www.updesigns.com/battery_controller1.htm . They helped with the original battery design.

I'm really confused by what you report, including the ease with which you say you opened the battery case. I believe it has been previously reported that it was nearly impossible to open a case without destroying it.
I didn't remove the motherboard, so there could be only 4 cels per bank. I can only see that there are 6 banks of approximately 12vdc. I could be mistaken about that too. But I do see the layouts of 6 apparently identical groups of components that appear to make up 6 monitoring circuits. I don't see more, but that's the magic of multilayer surface mount technology. Much may remain hidden.

The battery I opened is a Li Ion battery. Using an old wood burning tool and carefully not penetrating too deep until I could pry up an edge to see into the battery to clear the internal electronics. I was lucky along with good eyesite to see where the exacto heated knofe was penetrating the case. It's a fairly neat job of removing the top cover.
I cut accross the rounded front of the case a little less than an inch from the rounded leading edge. I started at the corner on the flat trailing edge and just slowly worked my way across the battery until the top was finally lifted off. No damage to the internals.

Now I am certainly open to any corrective comments that anyone wants to make here. That is why I am here to share knowledge about this very interesting device. A really wonderful achievement in engineering design and development! The more I can know about it, the happyer I am.

Let's move on and learn more.

Thanks-A-Million!!!

Ray

[Desert_Seg]

... I'm really confused by what you report, including the ease with which you say you opened the battery case. I believe it has been previously reported that it was nearly impossible to open a case without destroying it.

John is right. Opening the batteries is a chore.

I can't remember the exact term (I think it is ultrasonic welding) but the best way to describe it is that the batteries are "vibration sealed" and they are sealed.

I still have this opened battery if anybody wants other pictures.

Steven

[hellphish]

I didn't remove the motherboard, so there could be only 4 cels per bank. I can only see that there are 6 banks of approximately 12vdc. I could be mistaken about that too. But I do see the layouts of 6 apparently identical groups of components that appear to make up 6 monitoring circuits. I don't see more, but that's the magic of multilayer surface mount technology. Much may remain hidden.

The battery I opened is a Li Ion battery. Using an old wood burning tool and carefully not penetrating too deep until I could pry up an edge to see into the battery to clear the internal electronics. I was lucky along with good eyesite to see where the exacto heated knofe was penetrating the case. It's a fairly neat job of removing the top cover.
I cut accross the rounded front of the case a little less than an inch from the rounded leading edge. I started at the corner on the flat trailing edge and just slowly worked my way across the battery until the top was finally lifted off. No damage to the internals.

Now I am certainly open to any corrective comments that anyone wants to make here. That is why I am here to share knowledge about this very interesting device. A really wonderful achievement in engineering design and development! The more I can know about it, the happyer I am.

Let's move on and learn more.

Thanks-A-Million!!!

Ray

This is an attitude I love to encourage here. Rep+

[Eric Payne]

My dealer called on Friday; he was ordering 3 Lithium batteries, and if we wanted to order now, he could order in bulk (5 or more), cutting a couple hundred bucks off the price.

So we did.

Very soon, I'll have Gilligan roaring around ALL of Phoenix, and just might be able to make that Scottsdale-to-Tempe glide after all!

[polo_pro]

This thread has had alot of posts for what sure sounds like a standard Li-Ion that isn't fitting too well on his e-167. I know there have been times when I mount Li-Ions (and I do it alot), where they just don't seat well. They seem to wobble from side to side as if they've caught on something. Alot of the time, it's because of my bad habit of mounting batteries without putting the segway up on one wheel (which is perfectly acceptable for Gen 1 machines). So sometimes I have to shove them up at an angle with very little room between the ground and the "bottom" battery.

Ray, if you don't feel comfortable putting these batteries on your segway, I'm sure there's a dealer nearby who'd let you mount them on a dead platform. Aren't there 3 in the Annopolis, MD area?

This would quickly get you past your concerns about if this is the right type of battery. Also, I would imagine the dealer would have Li-Ions that you could put your batteries right next to for comparison.

ps - When you're done experimenting on your Li-Ions and ready to take the $1500 plunge, do remember which dealer took the time to both help you out and educate you.

[bentbiker]

This thread has had alot of posts for what sure sounds like a standard Li-Ion . . . Except that it has the wrong number of cells for a Li-Ion battery, the cells have the wrong voltage to be Li-Ions, and it doesn't fit?

[dumkopf]

I have been slow about trying them on my seg only because I don't want to make any mistakes, but since everyone here has commented favorably about the compatibility, I will give it a try. I need to do some work to clean up my battery and reseal it before I try that one. I will post some pictures. I have not been able to find the pictures of an opened battery in the photo gallery that someone mentioned.

I usually do things for myself because it's just a hobby. But I will visit the dealer in Annapolis soon and see what a new Li Ion battery looks like and find out what it would cost me to get a set with firmware upgrades. I do need that for my old e.

Thanks.

[dumkopf]

Except that it has the wrong number of cells for a Li-Ion battery, the cells have the wrong voltage to be Li-Ions, and it doesn't fit?
I was mistaken about the estimate of the number of cells because I thought they were the same voltage as NiMH of ~1.25V. I didn't remove the motherboard in the "opened" battery, so I couldn't see or count the individual cells and the count is off. I still believe there are 6 groups of 12v each monitored and charged controlled by the motherboard. There are no power circuits on the mobo, so the charging components are in the seg and OBC but apparently charge controlled by the mobo in each battery.

[dgbint]

The 'Charger' located in either the CSB, center console or Off Board Chargere is an AC - DC converter.

The input is universal ( about 100V - 240 V ) so that it can be plugged in anywhere in the world, you just need the proper mains cable to suit.

The output is a high volatge DC output ( about 80 V, but I am not absolutely sure ).
This output feeds the battery pack.
Internal to the battery pack, is a 'controller, charger, temp sensor to appropriately feed this DC power to this battery set.
Sure those bits are different for NiMH and for LiIon and they will be different again for the next technology battery.

This architecture is wonderfully chosen by Segway to allow global usage now and in the future, even with unknown future batteries.

Just a word of caution, those voltage levels, along with serious amounts of stored energy should not be tinkered with lightly. It can bite.


Michael

[polo_pro]

I have been slow about trying them on my seg only because I don't want to make any mistakes, but since everyone here has commented favorably about the compatibility, I will give it a try. I need to do some work to clean up my battery and reseal it before I try that one. I will post some pictures. I have not been able to find the pictures of an opened battery in the photo gallery that someone mentioned.

I usually do things for myself because it's just a hobby. But I will visit the dealer in Annapolis soon and see what a new Li Ion battery looks like and find out what it would cost me to get a set with firmware upgrades. I do need that for my old e.

Thanks.

Sorry if I came across harshly...I actually advocate tinkering alot here on SC. But sometimes a bit of information/help can change your perspective dramaticly too.

I'm a bit surprised that other folks who've bought Li-Ions from the same Ebay seller haven't chimed in with their experiences. As I remember, there were many many pairs of dead Li-Ions being sold, right?

[bentbiker]

I was mistaken about the estimate of the number of cells because I thought they were the same voltage as NiMH of ~1.25V. I didn't remove the motherboard in the "opened" battery, so I couldn't see or count the individual cells and the count is off. I still believe there are 6 groups of 12v each monitored and charged controlled by the motherboard. There are no power circuits on the mobo, so the charging components are in the seg and OBC but apparently charge controlled by the mobo in each battery.
Assuming these are Li-ions, they have a protection circuit in them that prevents them from being recharged if they fall below a certain voltage. If your method of charging was done by circumventing that protection after you failed to get a successful charge via the OBC, you may well have gotten them above that cutoff minimum and the charger might well work now. I certainly would rather risk an OBC than anything internal to the Segway. If they charged normally on the OBC, they would then seemingly be safe to install.

I'd also want to make sure that the re-seal doesn't have to bear the physical weight of the cells, unless you have some very sophisticated equipment to do the re-sealing. If the screws support the lower shell and the top is just sandwiched between lower case and the platform, then that is not a concern.

[SegDog]

Hello,

As others have posted, the system is more complex than the average glider knows, up until now.

What I referred to as a "recognition circuit", and another poster called a "protective", I always, called a "safety circuit". The idea being that when a battery dropped below a certain point, it would no longer take a charge with the standard, supplied equipment. I don't know if this is the same with LI Ion, but with lead-acid, we'd carefully and safely circumvent the standard charging to bring the voltage up, and sometimes this allowed the standard charging system to charge normally.

[dumkopf]

The 'Charger' located in either the CSB, center console or Off Board Chargere is an AC - DC converter.

The input is universal ( about 100V - 240 V ) so that it can be plugged in anywhere in the world, you just need the proper mains cable to suit.

The output is a high volatge DC output ( about 80 V, but I am not absolutely sure ).
This output feeds the battery pack.
Internal to the battery pack, is a 'controller, charger, temp sensor to appropriately feed this DC power to this battery set.
Sure those bits are different for NiMH and for LiIon and they will be different again for the next technology battery.

This architecture is wonderfully chosen by Segway to allow global usage now and in the future, even with unknown future batteries.

Just a word of caution, those voltage levels, along with serious amounts of stored energy should not be tinkered with lightly. It can bite.


Michael
I have not seen any power semiconductors in the battery, only control/monitor size (low power) circuits although there could be something under the mobo, but that would serve to heat up the battery more than observed. So I expect that the power regulators/chargers are in the outboard stuff. If I were designing it I would use a switchmode charger that will convert the variable input mains voltages to the battery voltage in accordance with the control circuits in the battery mobo.

I am sorry I have not yet provided pictures and other information, but I do intend to, but I am also very busy with other responsibilities as this is only a hobby that I can spend only a little time occasionally.

I have learned a lot from all the comments made in this thread on this listserve for which I am very grateful!!

Ray

There is a lot to learn. It's not rocket science but a very well done product. Thanks for your valuable comments.

[dumkopf]

Sorry if I came across harshly...I actually advocate tinkering alot here on SC. But sometimes a bit of information/help can change your perspective dramaticly too.

I'm a bit surprised that other folks who've bought Li-Ions from the same Ebay seller haven't chimed in with their experiences. As I remember, there were many many pairs of dead Li-Ions being sold, right?
No problem, I am not easily excited by anyone's comments that may appear negative. I can expect others here to wonder what kind of person comes on the SC here and lands comments like I have made here. But my comments are only a start for me to understand what we have with our Segs.

Yes, there were several pairs sold, but I have only seen one notable comment from the buyers. I do intend trying the batteries on my outboard charger again. Maybe it will perform well now that there is some charge in it. Someone here made a comment that they may not work if not kept charged. I don't see why, but maybe that is what is the case here and now when I finally retry it on my charger maybe it will charge. Otherwise, there must be a problem on the mobo in the battery because neither battery would charge on the OBC, but charged up fine on my variable dc power supply I used to charge 'em.

Moretocome

[dumkopf]

Hello,

As others have posted, the system is more complex than the average glider knows, up until now.

What I referred to as a "recognition circuit", and another poster called a "protective", I always, called a "safety circuit". The idea being that when a battery dropped below a certain point, it would no longer take a charge with the standard, supplied equipment. I don't know if this is the same with LI Ion, but with lead-acid, we'd carefully and safely circumvent the standard charging to bring the voltage up, and sometimes this allowed the standard charging system to charge normally.
I looks like the mobo internal to the battery is powered by the OBC or Seg and not by the battery, so when it is unplugged, their is no dependence on the battery by the mobo circuits.

Li Ion's and NiMH's are not damaged by the discharged state like lead acid batteries are. Years later, the Li Ion's and NiMH's can be charged like new in my experience. What kills these kinds of batteries is being "dried out" from venting during the charging cycle along with some wear and tear by the conversion process of the solid materials between charged and discharged states.

[dumkopf]

My dealer called on Friday; he was ordering 3 Lithium batteries, and if we wanted to order now, he could order in bulk (5 or more), cutting a couple hundred bucks off the price.

So we did.

Very soon, I'll have Gilligan roaring around ALL of Phoenix, and just might be able to make that Scottsdale-to-Tempe glide after all!
Sorry, I missed your message about a group order. Maybe later, this spring when I can spend the $$. It's a great idea to purchase a bunch at one time though maybe save a few.

[dumkopf]

Assuming these are Li-ions, they have a protection circuit in them that prevents them from being recharged if they fall below a certain voltage. If your method of charging was done by circumventing that protection after you failed to get a successful charge via the OBC, you may well have gotten them above that cutoff minimum and the charger might well work now. I certainly would rather risk an OBC than anything internal to the Segway. If they charged normally on the OBC, they would then seemingly be safe to install.

I'd also want to make sure that the re-seal doesn't have to bear the physical weight of the cells, unless you have some very sophisticated equipment to do the re-sealing. If the screws support the lower shell and the top is just sandwiched between lower case and the platform, then that is not a concern.
I will try it, maybe it will charge when my constitution can bear the risk of damage.

I removed most of the top of the battery (around the connector side) so replacing it will not affect the structural assembly. I would not need to replace it at all except to protect it from environmental damage such as water. But I will reseal it. Silicon resin is relatively soft and can easily be removed later if desired, but is strong enough to keep the assembly together. I use it all the time on various things that I want to glue like china and the like. In the old days when GE invented it, it was called "RTV" compound.

[dumkopf]

Assuming these are Li-ions, they have a protection circuit in them that prevents them from being recharged if they fall below a certain voltage. If your method of charging was done by circumventing that protection after you failed to get a successful charge via the OBC, you may well have gotten them above that cutoff minimum and the charger might well work now. I certainly would rather risk an OBC than anything internal to the Segway. If they charged normally on the OBC, they would then seemingly be safe to install.

I'd also want to make sure that the re-seal doesn't have to bear the physical weight of the cells, unless you have some very sophisticated equipment to do the re-sealing. If the screws support the lower shell and the top is just sandwiched between lower case and the platform, then that is not a concern.
Yes, My charging method was simple and does bypass any protection circuits in the battery mobo because all I did was connect the power supply (charger) to two of the four larger power pin/sockets in the middle of the connector.

Looking at the battery connector with the flat side edge of the battery at the bottom, the + terminal is the upper left and the - terminal is the lower right. The other two are not connected to anything in the battery! The nominal voltage is around 60 - 70 vdc between these two connections. They are directly connected to the entire bank of series connected cells within the battery case. There are only fuses in series with the cells and the 2 pin/sockets. It's a potent battery I am sure capable of much power in a short period of time. Let's see... 5.2 Ah x 72.6 volts is 377 watt hours stored energy! A normal car battery has about 60Ah x 12 volts is only 720 watt hours, but is much bigger and heavier in size and weight!! In other words, the power density is much higher in the Segway battery.

[SegDog]

I guess the only thing now is what is the voltage on a brand new battery? They have to be charged for twelve (12) hours initially. (which does bring-up other questions, later)

My batteries read 76Vdc, two center sockets. The other pins have varying readings.

Thanks.

SegDog

[drmarty]

I have no time right now so will come back. I am only half way through this thread.

But I have to add:

Lithium batts are: 23 groups of 4 cells. Each cell is a 1350 mAh cell. There is a seperate circuit for each group and if you look at your circuit board you will see them labelled cell 0 through cell 22 (how digital of them) making 23 in all. In battery jargon this is a 23S4P pack 23 sets in series of 4 cell packs in parallel. Parallel gives you Ah and series gives you voltage. So 4 times 1350 =5400 or 5.4 Ah giving our capacity and 23 x 3.4 gives 78.2 volts giving out voltage. Remember the voltage is nominal so it varies around that number depending on charged or not, etc.

I have a friend who may be able to revive some batteries. Maybe 10 to 20% This is without opening them and cutting them apart to put good cells from one with good cells from another. This guy is a genius who doesn't even own a Segway.

We are still working. Caution opening them. Lot's of juice in there. Also the stock wires connecting the 23 sets to the PCB seem very brittle to me. They tend to break with very few bends. So as you look at it they keep breaking. I finally cut them completely apart and replaced all wires to a connector and did the same on the PCB. Hours and hours of work. And it didn't work. Crap.

I'll post pics tonight.

Marty

[drmarty]

Well where to start? I'll break it up.

Dumkopf said "Li Ion's and NiMH's are not damaged by the discharged state like lead acid batteries are. Years later, the Li Ion's and NiMH's can be charged like new in my experience."

Dumkopf:
You are mistaken. Lithiums are definately damaged by low voltage. NiCD and NiMH may be taken low but Never Never let your Lithiums go low. It varies for chemistry but around 3V per cell is the floor. That is why all repeat all chargers for Lithium check the voltage before charging. Some might bump the voltage for 60 seconds and then check it but all will not allow you to charge a low Lithium cell. Some of the literature says there is a physical change in the cathode causing it to pull away from the anode at low voltage physically ruining the cell and possibly making a place to arc if you try to charge it. An arc in our cells is not a huge deal. An arc in a lithium cobalt is a catastrophe liberating oxygen and causing a conflagration.

OK as for the battery pack. Trust me. they build a 46 cell brick which as 11 and 1/2 of the 4 cell groups. They place two of these in the case. The 2 half packs of 2 cells are joined to make the 23rd 4 cell unit. You need to look closer than you are. The metal plates you see are spot welded to eight cells. BUT look closely and you can see 4 of them are shinier than the other 4. You are seeing 4 positive ends and 4 negative ends one each one. On the other side of the pack the cells have another plate spot wlded to them but if all eight were again welded together it would be a direct short. POOOOF. No, the other side has four of the eight cells hooked to a different set of eight. The voltage "Weaves" through in a series configuration. 4 to 4 to 4 to 4. Honest.

Photos at eleven.

Oh hell here are some.

707 708

709

OK if you look at these the packs are identical. You just see the top of one and the bottom of the other. Notice on one there is a two cell group and the other has a 6 cell group. hook these up for the 22nd and 23rd 4 cell groups. Confusing isn't it? Note the red marks are my early attempts at figuring these out and show how each 4 cell pack is grouped.

OK now more later.

Marty

[drmarty]

Well the charger is universal and in fact can charge any two batteries at the same time. They do not have to be the same.

Charger placard (on the bottom) reads:

Input:
100 - 240V ~ 50-60Hz 1.4A 140W

Output, DC:
100V (A) 600mA 100V (B) 600mA
12V (A) 30mA 12V (B) 30mA

Easy Cheesy

Marty

By the way ~ means alternating current.
Interesting that there is a 12V output, no?
I also think that their (A) and (B) are the same as I and II on the top of the case.

Marty

[dumkopf]

Well the charger is universal and in fact can charge any two batteries at the same time. They do not have to be the same.

Charger placard (on the bottom) reads:

Input:
100 - 240V ~ 50-60Hz 1.4A 140W

Output, DC:
100V (A) 600mA 100V (B) 600mA
12V (A) 30mA 12V (B) 30mA

Easy Cheesy

Marty

By the way ~ means alternating current.
Interesting that there is a 12V output, no?
I also think that their (A) and (B) are the same as I and II on the top of the case.

Marty
Thanks for the nice comments and pictures! You have disassembled a battery much cleaner that I did and I thought I did a nice job!!

But I will need to run some more tests -- havn't had time to contiune until next week, away through weekend.

But I have not removed my motherboard and won't. It looks like too much work.

My batteries seem to charge very nicely with an external variable power supply.

My batteries could be different because only two power pin/sockets are connected as verified when I opened it up and inspected the connector closeup.

More later!

Thanks again for all the interest and sharing your valuable experiences!!

Ray

[dumkopf]

I guess the only thing now is what is the voltage on a brand new battery? They have to be charged for twelve (12) hours initially. (which does bring-up other questions, later)

My batteries read 76Vdc, two center sockets. The other pins have varying readings.

Thanks.

SegDog
Mine is lower voltage, but I probably have not really charged it up fully. Another SC member, see couple of messages above has warned that they should not be charged if they have been allowed to drop to a low voltage.

Mine read 0v across the power pins on one and ~12vdc on the other one before I charged them any. The "tilde" here means "approximately" since I did't pay attention to exactly, but only approximately the voltage read on the battery initial test.

I will charge them some more. We'll see.

The label on my batteries says 73.6 v 5.2Ah as I remember.

I'll double check when I see them again.

Ray