Raffle

[Eric Payne]

I sent an e-mail to the person(s), DBA Segway of Sanibel (FL), who solicited the members of this forum for an i2 raffle, letting him know I expected the constraints of the contract to be respected, ie, that the raffle be held on October 31, 2007, as expressed on the hard-copy raffle ticket.

He never responded to that e-mail, yet later posted a message stating the raffle would be held on November 4, 2007, and again soliciting the "remaining" 40 raffle tickets.

It is now November 4. There has been no posting concerning a winner.

In addition, Segway of Sanibel's website is still selling raffle tickets (http://secure.isgfl.com/www.billysrentals.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45&products_id=68) with no indication of a drawing date for the raffle.

My spouse and I have some serious problems with this.

[pam]

Eric, Billy has been a forum member in good standing for a long time, and continues to be one.

This is a raffle for charity, as I recall. He has done a raffle before and the raffle was held. I'm sure he's trying to get the most money he can for the charity. He will get with us just as soon as he is able with the information.

Pam

[Tarkus]

I think Pam's correct, he's trying to sell out.

He is truly one of the "Good Guys".

Be Big,
Alan

[BellsRUs]

Billy and Sallie posted a while back that the drawing would be held today in conjunction with a birthday celebration for Billy. The event was to take place today from 2pm-5pm. I'm guessing that I didn't win, since I haven't had a phone call from them. :rolleyes:

I'm sure they will let us know who won ASAP...

Patti

[polo_pro]

Meaningless suggestion of mine since drawing has been held already.

[Billy Kirkland]

Segway Raffle winner
We had the drawing for the Segway at my 55 birthday party to day at 4:00pm they were about 150 people there. The lucky winner was ticket # 061 and the Person was Dave Johnson of Labelle Fl. I just call him and he could not believe he had won. The total number of tickets sold was 174 I had a local Police officer draw the ticket. I am thank full for all that bought a ticket. We will have Raised about $12,200 00 for the Team in Training goal. I just got home and the info will be off the web site as soon as I posted this.

Billy

[Eric Payne]

I also believe I read an earlier post where Billy offered to refund Eric's (or anyone else who might be dissatisfied) ticket. I would recommend that this plan be enacted. It seems to be the simplest quickest resolution.

That is true. However, it is also NOT true, as my spouse, who purchased the ticket through his private e-mail account, was never notified of any changes. And since the Federal government, and Florida law, do not recognize the validity of any relationship we have, outside of "friendship," he was not notified.

That offer was rejected, and he was made aware - at that time - that as contractees we fully expected the contract be honored.

He chose to proceed with unilaterally changing the parameters of that contract.

That is unacceptable.

[macgeek]

That is true. However, it is also NOT true, as my spouse, who purchased the ticket through his private e-mail account, was never notified of any changes. And since the Federal government, and Florida law, do not recognize the validity of any relationship we have, outside of "friendship," he was not notified.

That offer was rejected, and he was made aware - at that time - that as contractees we fully expected the contract be honored.

He chose to proceed with unilaterally changing the parameters of that contract.

That is unacceptable.

Next to lovin, you like fighting.

Its for charity, step away from the soapbox

Jonathan

[Eric Payne]

There were 200 tickets available for puchase.

200 x $50.00 = $10,000.00

...(t)he total number of tickets sold was 174...

Okay, 174 x $50.00 = $ 8,700.00


... (w)e will have Raised about $12,200 00 for the Team in Training goal.

???

[KSagal]

I can see both sides of this.

Both Billy and Eric are good guys.

Everyone recognises that this is for a good cause, but the rules have been a bit loose, considering that there were dates printed and published.

As most of us know Billy to be a man of honor, a change of dates, or two or three does not bother us, or may not bother us, but not everyone knows him this well.

If I were to buy a raffle as a gift for someone, and that raffle had a specific date on it, and that date was not honored, regardless of who sold it to me, I would not like it.

I have purchased tickets like this in the past. If Billy wanted to sell out tickets before the drawing, he simply should have sold them under that set of instructions.

In Billy's defense, there may have been some communications errors between him, his wife, and this charity. Again, all is for a good cause, but if you are going to publish a committment, it seems reasonable to me that you should keep to those committments.

It is further my understanding that there were some conflicting committments based on where you got your information. This reflects poor communication, and I am sure nothing more.

I am glad that money was raised for a good cause, and sorry that there were some hurt feelings.

I feel confident that administration of this type of an event in the future will make an effort to assure that all parties have the same expectations in the future...

Billy is known to involve himself in many worthy activities, and I feel he has been a real asset to this community, so hope he continues.

Eric has also shown himself to be a worthy and valuable asset to this community, and hope he continues as well.

[Billy Kirkland]

The Segway Raffle was not the only thing that we have done to rasie the money. I have a bike shop that we did tuneups on bikes and all the money went to the Team In training plus I had people just give us money. As I have told Eric before on Segway Chat. I will be happy to refund anyones money. This will be the last time I will offer a Segway Raffle on this Site. I woulder what Eric would have said if he was the winner today. So if anyone would like there money back email me at billy@segwaysanibel.com

Billy




There were 200 tickets available for puchase.

200 x $50.00 = $10,000.00



Okay, 174 x $50.00 = $ 8,700.00




???

[Eric Payne]

The Segway Raffle was not the only thing that we have done to rasie the money. I have a bike shop that we did tuneups on bikes and all the money went to the Team In training plus I had people just give us money. As I have told Eric before on Segway Chat. I will be happy to refund anyones money. This will be the last time I will offer a Segway Raffle on this Site. I woulder what Eric would have said if he was the winner today...

In reverse order:

Billy, had I (or my spouse) been the winner today, we probably would have turned right around and offered the prize to the same charity to which the proceeds were being donated. You may think I'm jumping on you for no reason, but I'm not.

As I've said before in postings - Bill is an extremely legal person; if the speed limit is 40, he does 38. He never, ever litters. He never jay-walks, in fact, the only reason we have Gilligan is because, two days after buying it, Bill realized the Q-Rad he purchased, though it resembles a Segway, does not meet the legal requirement of EPAMDs in Arizona.

Yes, you told ME you would offer a refund; you did not tell Bill. Nor did you ever inquire as to Bill's last name and/or e-mail account. So Bill was never notified you had changed the parameters of the raffle outside of your posting here.

You are also being extremely disingenuous in your response here, failing to note there were other communications made to you, via your e-mail account here, that you simply did not open. IOW: You made the assumption of either: (a) If I ignore it, it'll go away, or (b) I don't really care what they have to say, I'm going to do it my way, and if they don't like it, tough.

As for not offering a raffle on this site any longer, that's your choice. I'd assume you generated a great many sales from the posting you made here; I will not assume the responsibility for your offering no future raffles. Your actions, and your actions alone, led to this situation. You must bear the responsibility for those actions.

As for the money breakdown, thank you for the explanation. I really didn't want to think someone, or a few someones, might have paid $1000 for a "magic ticket," since, obviously, the money tally, vs the number of tickets sold, was off by over $4,000.

[byped]

Sitting in the bleachers, watching the tennis match.

The hand goes up, "Beer and peanuts here!" Well, I might not have any class, but when the loser throws his racquet in the end I'm going to laugh.

Although, I'm predicting that this just won't end with anything remotely on positive ground. I wish all to reconsider the benevolent wishes aside from formalities based beyond a sundial.

[Desert_Seg]

...My spouse and I have some serious problems with this.

And your point is?

While I applaud some of the things you have done in the past, I'm beginning to think you either a) like litigation (or a fight), b) are a sore loser, or c) both a & b.

Billy has been doing these raffles for a while and nobody has complained. Ok, the date slipped a little but give the guy a break, he is doing this out of kindness, not out of greed. They (Billy, his wife, his employees, etc) are trying to raise a specific amount of money and if they need an extra day or two so be it. They let us know (ok, maybe a little late but they let us know) and it really isn't hurting anybody.

Sure you can try to make a State case, and maybe even Federal, but I doubt there is a prosecutor that will take it criminal and Tort action will likely fail as you would have to show damage, and if the raffle took place as advertised there is no damage other than to your bruised ego if you didn't win.

Now the damage that has occurred is to your reputation on this site and no court in the Nation can help you remedy that.

This one, I'd leave alone.

Steven

[Eric Payne]

... (n)ow the damage that has occurred is to your reputation on this site and no court in the Nation can help you remedy that...

Steven,

I am going to let it be. In fact, I will probably leave this forum altogether, based solely on the response(s) I've been getting in private.

I cannot say the same for Bill (my spouse), though.

As I said, he is an extremely "legal" person, and believes, sincerely, the only way for everyone to achieve fairness, for themselves, is to obey laws and rules. That's the way he is, and that's one of the reasons I first fell in love with him almost 15 years ago, now.

BILL (not me, but my spouse) purchased a ticket. That ticket was for a raffle to be held October 31 REGARDLESS OF WHETHER ALL TICKETS HAVE SOLD. By extending the drawing date of the raffle FOR THE PURPOSE OF SELLING MORE TICKETS, the Kirklands altered more than just the contracted date, but also unfavorably affected the odds of any person who had purchased tickets up to that date of winning.

The price of the raffle tickets are not tax-deductible by the purchasers, as the raffle was not held by any 501(c)(3). However, the Kirklands (or their corporation) will be allowed to write off over $12K, as they (or their corporation) will be, according to their solicitation, making a contribution to that charity.

So we have absolutely nothing to gain by pushing the issue, save for that principle of fairness.

As for your statement about "litigation" or "fighting," it's neither. I have never been involved in civil litigation throughout my life. Even when my parents were approached by the makers of Thalidomide in the 1970s and offered $1,000 as "recompense" for a drug routinely given expectant mothers in the mid-to-late 1950s in rural W Va, it was turned down. Yes, that drug probably caused some deformities within my body, but the average child born to a mother on that drug was horribly misshapen, being born with no legs, no arms, no faces, organs formed outside of bodies, etc. Even if it only raised the pool by $1 for the rest of the class, I refused any and all recompense and asked my name be withdrawn from the pool, altogether.

Many people here had "no problem" with the date of the raffle being changed. That's fine.

Bill did have a problem with it and, through me, expressed he had a problem with it. Since Bill was never contacted by the Kirklands concerning a changing of the date, and the purchase was made through his e-mail account and using his credit card, how many OTHER tickets were sold, with an October 31 date, that the purchases of those tickets were never asked about changing the date? I'm certain not everyone who purchased a ticket is also a member of this forum, as Bill is not a member of this forum.

So, believe what you wish about me. I have a clear conscience.

Good-bye.

[KSagal]

This forum is notoriously quick to eat their own.

Eric was the "Fair haired Boy" just a few weeks ago, with the support and admiration of all.

If he has a raffle ticket in his possession that has dates and statements on it that were not honored, he has a point.

I have not seen that ticket, but I have also not heard anyone say that what he is saying is not accurate.

If he was supposed to give $50 to this charity, with no hope of a winning chance at the prize, and that is what he chose to do, then he has no argument.

If he was taking an honest chance to win a valuable prize, and the benifit of all those who lost was a good charity, yet he hoped to win, and followed the rules on the ticket he bought, why would it be 100% on him to follow the rules and not the person who printed the ticket?

I personally believe Billy to be an honest person, and believe him when he gave the account of the charity that recieved this effort.

But that does not mean that we need to choose one over the other. Billy could mean well, and do good work, and still have made a minor admiinistrative error or two. While it does not undo his good work, it still exists, and does not make the exposer of those errors a monster.

Some people here have made some hurtful statements. Eric pointed out the date changes long before he lost or won this raffle. I don't think it fair to say this is a poor looser. It is not hard to see that, if we end this kangaroo court.

I said before that I feel this was a good cause, and am saddened to see that some people are disappointed in the exicution of this event. Even so, there is no good cause to make this worse.

[Eric Payne]

http://www.laborlawyers.com/showarticle.aspx?Ref=list&Type=1119&Cat=3388&Show=3962

In the state of Florida, any raffle that has a "purchase requirement" for entry into that raffle, if it is stated the proceeds of said raffle are to go to charity, is expressly illegal.

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/Charitable-Gaming/Florida/

849.0935 Charitable, nonprofit organizations; drawings by chance; required disclosures; unlawful acts and practices; penalties.--

(4) It is unlawful for any organization which, pursuant to the authority granted by this section, promotes, operates, or conducts a drawing by chance:

h) To cancel a drawing;

By changing the date of the drawing, that original drawing was cancelled.



____________



In private messages and e-mails, I've had the legitimacy of my birth called into question, been accused of being a rabble rouser and, generally, been urged to "shut the f*** up."



In public, I've been pilloried.



I logged back into these forums solely because I received an email in my in-box that stated I had a message waiting for me here. I've since given that person my private e-mail address.



Goodbye.

[PeteInLongBeach]

Well, I had (anonymous) reputation feedback that said "Pete is an idiot", but I'm still here.

Sticks & Stones, etc. Don't take rudeness too seriously...

[KSagal]

Being an idiot has not slowed me down much.

There are many on this forum who will attest to both.

[Eric Payne]

Laura Lykens, (239) 992-5781, the person responsible for fund-raising for "Leukemia and Lymphoma Association, Team-in-Training" for Sanibel Island, FL, has never heard of Billy or Salli Kirkland, and was completely unaware of any raffle being held to benefit that charity.

I called Billy Kirkland - and I dialed direct, didn't even use his 800 number - and asked hime one question: "Do you know Laura Lykens?" He said: "Who?" I repeated the name. When he responded in the negative, I explained who she was. His only response: "Oh. Okay."

Ms Lykens is, even now, looking through last year's records to determine if, in March 2006, there was any donation made in the Kirkland's name, in either their private or corporate capacity.

If she finds one, I'll be the very first person to apologize to the forum for these postings.

But since she didn't know of yesterday's raffle, or last year's raffle....

I get jumped on and villified by people in this forum, simply because they wanted to believe "the good works" of someone, based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever; I did NOT deserve that.

[pam]

Since you do not know personally who or what arrangements Billy has with the society, I do think you might be a little premature in stating that we've been scammed. An apology from you will not undo the damage you've done to Billy's reputation, unfortunately.

That said, so far I've seen no one jump on you ON the forums, although someone might have done so off the forum. Others have disagreed with your comments, but you have not been villified, as you have stated, unless I've missed something.

Pam

[Eric Payne]

Since you do not know personally who or what arrangements Billy has with the society, I do think you might be a little premature in stating that we've been scammed. An apology from you will not undo the damage you've done to Billy's reputation, unfortunately.

That said, so far I've seen no one jump on you ON the forums, although someone might have done so off the forum. Others have disagreed with your comments, but you have not been villified, as you have stated, unless I've missed something.

Pam

Pam,

That's why I posted the head of the local chapter's name AND phone number. I have absolutely NOTHING to hide, and the information is easily verifiable. And while I may not know, personally, "what arrangments" the Kirklands have made... I do know that according to Laura Lykens, (239) 992-5781, there was no contribution made to them in any amount, though in October, 2006, there was a raffle (again at $50 a ticket) which sold 222 tickets, or $11,500, and that there is no corresponding record of such a donation being made in the months of October or November, 2006.

Yet, on October 3, 2006, in thread http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=13107&page=6&highlight=raffle, Billy posted:

We had a great party at the Chanel Mark on Fort Myers Beach. Delicious apps and cocktails with a lot of fun people.
We sold about 9 additional tickets at the party, (222 total) and would you believe that someone at the party won??? Sandy DeMuro of Cape Coral, FL. was the lucky winner. I sold tickets in Switzerland, Singapore, Germany and all over the US. I sold at least 20 tickets to family members, and I thought for sure I would be taking an overseas trip or having a relative that really, really likes me…but it was very emotional to have the winner be right there at the party! Thank you everyone, your donations will make a difference in other’s lives. I’m sorry you didn’t win the Segway, but don’t forget that your stub will get you a free Segway tour on Sanibel…See you soon I hope! When you are gliding on your Segway on Sunday the 29th, I’ll be peddling on and on and on, wishing I had my SEGWAY. Please go to our web site www.segwaysanibel.com (http://www.segwaysanibel.com/) and page down to see pictures of the party and the winner.

And I did state I had been villified in PRIVATE messages and emails.

I was a DAMNED good newspaper reporter. I still follow those instincts. Those instincts are saying there's something that smells a whole lot like dead tilapia, here.

(PAM... By the way, just so you're clear: There will be absolutely NO apology offered to the Kirklands.)

[Socrates]

Ohh! Now it's going to be interesting.

I still tend to believe Segway of Sanibel and Billy Kirkland are "good ones".

Alex

[polo_pro]

Laura Lykens, (239) 992-5781, the person responsible for fund-raising for "Leukemia and Lymphoma Association, Team-in-Training" for Sanibel Island, FL, has never heard of Billy or Salli Kirkland, and was completely unaware of any raffle being held to benefit that charity.

I called Billy Kirkland - and I dialed direct, didn't even use his 800 number - and asked hime one question: "Do you know Laura Lykens?" He said: "Who?" I repeated the name. When he responded in the negative, I explained who she was. His only response: "Oh. Okay."

Ms Lykens is, even now, looking through last year's records to determine if, in March 2006, there was any donation made in the Kirkland's name, in either their private or corporate capacity.

If she finds one, I'll be the very first person to apologize to the forum for these postings.

But since she didn't know of yesterday's raffle, or last year's raffle....

I get jumped on and villified by people in this forum, simply because they wanted to believe "the good works" of someone, based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever; I did NOT deserve that.

First let me say that I've been one of Eric's biggest supporters. I appreciate his thorough approach to investigating odd/unfair situations he runs across in his life. He also carries this through to a prompt resolution and publicly reports on his findings.

In the past he's done this with his fellow glider's interest in mind. And I'm sure he feels his most recent action pursue the same goal. Though to some of us here, it may seem like an attack on Billy's character.

Given the large amounts of money involved (of which I think it's fair to say thousands has come from SC members), a bit of scrutiny would be in order. None of us will be able to determine if the raffle drawing was done "properly", but at least it can be determined if the collected funds from past raffles ended up in the charity's coffers. This seems to be the focus of Eric's most recent efforts....and I look forward to reading what his findings are. (Though I do wish that discoveries were kept private until a clearer picture of what happened formed...then make it all public regardless of which way thing go.)

I do have one question for Eric (though I'm not expecting a public response). Eric, if in your investigation, you determine that Billy has donated the funds from past raffles to the charity, in addition to the apology will you (and Bill) stop pursing the fact that the raffle was held 4 days late?

ps - In past posts, Eric has stated that Bill is tenaciously following this matter. I'm guessing that Bill's motivation might be the additional tickets sold in those 4 days? How many could it have been? A dozen?? Two dozen in the final days??? And most importantly, how much would that have affected the odds of winning (1 in ~140 vs 1 in 174)???? Remember, ticket #61 was drawn as the winner (as reported by Billy...so that fact might be in question), so it was likely sold many many months ago.

[Eric Payne]

... I do have one question for Eric (though I'm not expecting a public response). Eric, if in your investigation, you determine that Billy has donated the funds from past raffles to the charity, in addition to the apology will you (and Bill) stop pursing the fact that the raffle was held 4 days late?

At this point, after the way I was treated for even daring to suggest that there might be something untoward going on...

I can't answer that. Bill (my spouse) is incredibly angry about things that went along with the whole "change the date" scenario, including e-mails sent to Billy Kirkland that were, according to the status report(s) of messages sent via SC e-mail, never even opened.

If it were completely up to Bill (my spouse), there'd have been a sheriff knocking on BK's door at 6am this morning, simply for that one singular act of disrespect... to Bill (my spouse) that was BKs way of saying, electronically, "Thank you for your money. Now, go away."

[pam]

My DNS host moved servers this weekend, the new company was incredibly BAD at this move. It was supposed to take about 6 hours I've basically had 2 emails since Friday night, and those were Sunday. I've had no other emails since then, although I can go on the various forums that I've belonged to and see where emails were sent (unless yahoo was down, too). I can't log in to my own account. The servers are non-functional, apparently. The owner of my hosting company is practically apoplectic with the status of the move, and the lies he's gotten from his new partner. He's been VERY good at keeping us up to date on a blog, with practically hourly reports. However, that still does not change the fact that I have no email.

I hope all the people who emailed me and get back messages that they were not delivered (or opened) don't think I did it deliberately. I literally didn't get the messages. In terms of SC, I didn't get the notices that I HAD private messages.

Sometimes things are not always what they appear.

Pam

[jgrohol]

Folks, I'm closing this thread because (a) this is obviously a private dispute that has no place for a public airing out (or, if it does, it certainly is not something SC wants to condone or promote); and (b) I personally find it offensive someone would make such a big stink over a raffle ticket where the proceeds were being donate to charity. Honestly, if people want to fight about the details of something like this, do so through regular legal communication channels.

SegwayChat is not one of them.

John