Segway Owner by Proxy

[SegwayDad]

My daughter didn't get to take her driving test, so no car. And she can't learn to ride a bike because bikes fall over when you stop:rolleyes:. But for some reason, she loved riding a Segway on the Angel Island (San Francisco Bay) tour. So guess what mom got her for college? An i2. :D

She even started a blog about it. http://segwaythrucollege.blogspot.com/search/label/Segway%20Adventures

Now, this daughter is the best daughter ever, but she is not whatsoever mechanically inclined. So now that she's a continent away in Fort Wayne, Indiana, I'm supposed to rescue her when her tires go flat. :confused:

We tried to do her research for her -- finding out the tire characteristics, searching Yellowpages.com, etc.. Thanks to one of the forums, we've been spared the mistake of using Fix-a-Flat (R). We still haven't found a shop that can figure out how to help her with her flat tires. A lot of tire and bicycle shops don't know what a Segway is; some have been rude; and one even hung up on her! The Yamaha shop (which sells ATVs) couldn't figure out how to patch a tube and wanted to sell her a brand new pair of tires for $200 each. (The MSRP is only $134! :eek: )

The bright side is that owning a broke-down Segway has been a character-building experience for my daughter.

So... I hope I can find some help or solutions somewhere on the forums. The Segway site was certainly no help. :(

[pam]

I've copied this over from the new owners forum, so that we can leave that thread for new owner intros and SegwayDad might draw more of an answer here.

How far is Ft. Wayne from Indianapolis??? Sounds like maybe a ride in the making.... <G>
Pam

[SEGsby]

Patching tubes should be really easy... I don't know what the problem is. They have to be manually removed, and a lot of places won't take the time since the rims are plastic... They just need a couple plastic lever bars, so they don't damage things in the process. Have you tried a bicycle shop?

Also, make sure she airs them up and checks the pressure once a month.

In the long term, the choice of replacement tire might reflect what kind of use your daughter has for the machine... If she rides indoors at all, it might be worth the expense of just getting the i2 wheel kit (non marking tires), and bolting a new one on. When you get 2 new tires, use the older rims and buy some winter / offroad tires that she can use when the weather gets a bit more unpleasant in her area.

A seg is nice for short range use, but add in winter weather with ice and snow in the north-- I don't see how your daughter is going to get around easily in Indiana. In the winters here, it just gets wet. I used to live in Ohio, so I know how nasty the winters can get up there.

SEGsby

[bentbiker]

So... I hope I can find some help or solutions somewhere on the forums. The Segway site was certainly no help. :(

I sent you an email as I knew Pam wouldn't like a response in the new owners forum, and although I glanced through the posts to check, I did not see that she had already done her usual stellar job and anticipated the problem. My email basically recommended you look at http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?p=155269#post155269. A 25 cent tube patch will solve her problem and almost any cyclist can do it in 15 minutes; please don't spend $150 unnecessarily -- you need it for her tuition.

P.S.
I just went to your daughter's blog. There is a picture there of two Segways,
http://forums.segwaychat.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14723/P1010152.JPG.jpg
but both are X-series units. Are you sure your daughter has an i2? Also, she says she doesn't know how to use a tire guage; she needs to know how to use a tire guage. Poorhousedad (you?) commented her blog to ask for Slime tire sealant if she wants to go that route, not tube sealant. If she has an i2, she does NOT want tubless tire sealant -- she DOES want tube sealant. I would not recommend Slime for an i2 still using tubes as a long term fix.

[Mr_Laurenzano]

Your daughter is not mechnically inclinded, My daughter learned to ride a segway before a bike. As far as Im concerned, girls got what it takes to segway.
They dont have to have degree's in this or that, Just remmeber-
1. The tube size is 100/65-14, 17psi is nice.
2. Break the Bead from the back of the rim, then remove the front to get the tube out.
3. Please dont use metal tools, nylon is better.
4. Patches are cheaper than tubes. (REMA Tip-Top TT01 tour)
Look up a bike shop in your local area and ask nicely. This will Void the Warrenty on the Seg.
Option Two:
1. Buy a new rim and tire from your local dealer.

Have a Nice Day
CRASH

[polo_pro]

My suggestion would be for you to buy her a spare tire from Segway INC. Yes, it costs alot, but then she can mount it (3 screws all easily accessible) and send you the flat tire and rim. Then at your house you, can mess around trying out breaking beads, slime or patching, and then send it back to your daughter fixed. She'll be all ready to handle things herself if another tire goes flat.

Never underestimate the usefulness of spare parts.

ps - Emphasize the importance of using the tire gauge weekly. If her tires were deflated slightly, that'd have increased the chances of something sharp poking through the tire. It's easier to catch and hold a stray nail if the tire's contact point with the ground is wider due to under inflation.

[bystander]

My daughter didn't get to take her driving test, so no car. And she can't learn to ride a bike because bikes fall over when you stop:rolleyes:. But for some reason, she loved riding a Segway on the Angel Island (San Francisco Bay) tour. So guess what mom got her for college? An i2. :D

She even started a blog about it. http://segwaythrucollege.blogspot.com/search/label/Segway%20Adventures

Now, this daughter is the best daughter ever, but she is not whatsoever mechanically inclined. So now that she's a continent away in Fort Wayne, Indiana, I'm supposed to rescue her when her tires go flat. :confused:

We tried to do her research for her -- finding out the tire characteristics, searching Yellowpages.com, etc.. Thanks to one of the forums, we've been spared the mistake of using Fix-a-Flat (R). We still haven't found a shop that can figure out how to help her with her flat tires. A lot of tire and bicycle shops don't know what a Segway is; some have been rude; and one even hung up on her! The Yamaha shop (which sells ATVs) couldn't figure out how to patch a tube and wanted to sell her a brand new pair of tires for $200 each. (The MSRP is only $134! :eek: )

The bright side is that owning a broke-down Segway has been a character-building experience for my daughter.

So... I hope I can find some help or solutions somewhere on the forums. The Segway site was certainly no help. :(The other posters have covered most of the bases. All I can add is that a dealer has indicated that Segway, Inc. seems to have a tire changing demo of some kind in the works. Spotted in this thread:
http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=16917
Sometimes Segway, Inc.'s planned releases get delayed for some time, so I can't recommend waiting. However, if the PT isn't getting used as much over the winter, perhaps there will be something out by spring time. A demo of changing the tire may not help if your daughter is resistant to change. But if she is sufficiently motivated by the use of the PT, she may be able to view a demo of a tire change and say "I could do that".

In the meantime, she really ought to be encouraged to master the basic use of a tire pressure meter, and possibly an air pump.

P.S. bentbiker, the pic you posted from the blog was from the Angel island tour. There are other pictures which show an i2. Specificly, a brief note on this blog entry (http://segwaythrucollege.blogspot.com/2007/09/why-i-bought-segway.html) explains.

[Sal]

My daughter didn't get to take her driving test, so no car. And she can't learn to ride a bike because bikes fall over when you stop:rolleyes:. But for some reason, she loved riding a Segway on the Angel Island (San Francisco Bay) tour. So guess what mom got her for college? An i2. :D

She even started a blog about it. http://segwaythrucollege.blogspot.com/search/label/Segway%20Adventures

Now, this daughter is the best daughter ever, but she is not whatsoever mechanically inclined. So now that she's a continent away in Fort Wayne, Indiana, I'm supposed to rescue her when her tires go flat. :confused:

We tried to do her research for her -- finding out the tire characteristics, searching Yellowpages.com, etc.. Thanks to one of the forums, we've been spared the mistake of using Fix-a-Flat (R). We still haven't found a shop that can figure out how to help her with her flat tires. A lot of tire and bicycle shops don't know what a Segway is; some have been rude; and one even hung up on her! The Yamaha shop (which sells ATVs) couldn't figure out how to patch a tube and wanted to sell her a brand new pair of tires for $200 each. (The MSRP is only $134! :eek: )

The bright side is that owning a broke-down Segway has been a character-building experience for my daughter.

So... I hope I can find some help or solutions somewhere on the forums. The Segway site was certainly no help. :(

Hi there, I'm the organizer of the Indiana Segway Enthusiasts Group (http://groups.google.com/group/segindy?lnk=srg), and live in Indianapolis. We'd love to get in touch with you or your daughter, and help her in any way we can, with information, glides, and most importantly, put her in touch with the Indianapolis-based Segway dealer (http://segwayofindiana.com) who is very resourceful and helpful.

Please PM me or send me an email thought SegwayChat.

Good luck and hope to hear from you.

-Sal

[Neelix]

I'm glad to see some more folks using Segways at college.

I've been using mine (as I had always planned) and it has been working out splendidly.

While San Francisco State has what is called a "No Wheel" policy (meaning, no wheels of any sort, save wheelchair wheels, may be used on walkways), they have been forward thinking enough to provide a "Bike Barn" for those students who wish to use devices with decidedly fewer wheels than we find on automobiles. The Bike Barn works like a coat check: they give you a small ticket to place on your bike/scooter/rollerblades/Segway and you keep a ticket with a matching number on your persons. You go about your day, and then you just check out your device when you're ready to go home.

I haven't had any issues over the past 3 months; nary a single negative comment.

[Suzined]

So when you get to town you check your (Segways) with the bar keeper and when leaving town, you pick up your (Segways) from the same saloon? I think I've heard of that somewhere. ;>)

[SegwayDad]

I've copied this over from the new owners forum, so that we can leave that thread for new owner intros and SegwayDad might draw more of an answer here.

How far is Ft. Wayne from Indianapolis??? Sounds like maybe a ride in the making.... <G>
Pam

Thank you for re-starting the thread in the right place, Pam.

Ft. Wayne, I'm told, is two hours from Indianapolis.

[SegwayDad]

<snip> Have you tried a bicycle shop?

<snip> When you get 2 new tires, use the older rims and buy some winter / offroad tires that she can use when the weather gets a bit more unpleasant in her area. <snip>

SEGsby

She called all the bike and tire shops within 10 miles. I may do some calling. Maybe they'll respond differently to a man, especially if I can provide or point to some instructions.

Winter tires sounds like a very good idea.

[SegwayDad]

I sent you an email.... <snip>

<snip> Are you sure your daughter has an i2? <snip> I would not recommend Slime for an i2 still using tubes as a long term fix.

You provided some great information. I have the confidence to fix the tires myself. Talking my daughter through fixing them herself may be another matter. ;-)

I gave her a pressure gage and told her to check the pressure at least once/month. "I know, dad, I know." Uh-huh. She knows now.

Yes, she has an i2. A commercial tour operator on Angel Island (near San Francisco) provides XTs. That's where mom & daughter decided they absolutely HAD to have a Segway.

Agreed about Slime. I'm saving it for a last resort.

[SEGsby]

Good luck with your search. A friend of mine put offroad tires on my old rims for me. If you know a mechanic, ask 'em; they probably have the tools and know-how. He said they were easy to put on, once the bead on the old tires was broken.

As for winter tires... They will only go so far in helping add safety to the machine. If there are patches of ice, and the machine cannot get proper traction, your daughter might fall during a "traction event". Traction is the main force helping the machine stay upright, and can be overcome by environmental factors, like ice and wet leaves. So I would not expect her being able to ride the Segway say, after a freezing rainstorm and everything is covered in ice...

Have her use caution and good judgement, during harsh weather.

all my best,
SEGsby

She called all the bike and tire shops within 10 miles. I may do some calling. Maybe they'll respond differently to a man, especially if I can provide or point to some instructions.

Winter tires sounds like a very good idea.

[bystander]

Re: "traction event",

...might fall during a "traction event". Traction is the main force helping the machine stay upright, and can be overcome by environmental factors, like ice and wet leaves.Heh, according to your own definition, the PT depends on traction. So a slip or skid would be a "loss of traction" event, also known as a "zero-traction" event. Or maybe even a "Low-", "Non-" or "No-" traction event. But referring to an event relating to a lack or reduction of traction as a plain "traction event" may be counter intuitive to some.

Not trying to find fault with your advice, just trying to avoid confusion for the new users.

[bystander]

Agreed about Slime. I'm saving it for a last resort.Slime is a preventative measure. Saving it as a last resort may not be an optimal course of action.

The decision to use slime depends on the nature of the leaks. If there are punctures due to large objects, keep it (the use of slime) in the last resort category. (because a patch is better for large holes)

But if the punctures are all pinprick size, slime will save you a lot of hassle. Why?

To fix each single pinhole causes a wheel removed from the PT, removal of the tire, finding the spot in the tube with the pinhole, patching the hole, making sure there are not additional holes, remounting the tire, replacing the wheel back onto the PT. And in the case of your present situation, you are considering adding two stages of UPS shipment on top of that!

Using slime, you may never even know there was a pinhole leak, let alone all that mechanical diss- and re-assembly. (and possible shipping)

I realize you cannot easily tell the size of the holes due to the logistics of the problem at hand. Just trying to save you some aggravation. If the holes turn out to be pin-sized, you'll be asking yourself why you didn't start using the slime earlier.

The worst-case scenario for slime use is if someone checks the pressure of the tire without positioning the tire beforehand to avoid flooding the valve stem with slime. If you think this is a probability, then yes, by all means keep slime in the last resort category.

(If that ever does happen, to fix that, you have to let all the air out of the tube, unscrew the valve from the inside of the valve stem, wash the slime out of the valve, dry it, and return the valve back into the valve stem, and re-inflate.)

[bystander]

She called all the bike and tire shops within 10 miles. I may do some calling. Maybe they'll respond differently to a man, especially if I can provide or point to some instructions.

Winter tires sounds like a very good idea.Also consider motorcycle shops. I purchased some off-road tires from a motorcycle shop and they offered to mount them for $15 each.

There tire size that the PT uses is very uncommon for a bicycle, but is common for small "dirt-bike" motorcycles. You ought to explain that the PT's rims are plastic and find out if the shop can use "rim protectors" to remove the tires and avoid nicking the edges of the rims. A motorcycle shop may already have these on hand, as some lightweight motorcycle rims are easily scratched.

[bentbiker]

Slime is a preventative measure. Saving it as a last resort may not be an optimal course of action.
With all due respect, I believe your experience is limited to use of slime in tubeless tires and Dad is talking about an i2 with tubes. David Sie theorized, and I agree, that in a tube, there is probably not enough thickness to the tube itself for a plug to form within the hole itself, but rather probably flows out of the tube to seal up against the wall of the tire. I recommended using Slime as a last resort because, for me, it was only a temporary fix. Whatever the mechanism, I can tell you from experience, that at 15 lbs of pressure and the relatively high amount of flex, a Slimed tire got me to and from work but required pumping the tire every day. Since INC replaced the wheel and tire and I couldn't find a way to see what was actually going on inside (this was before Gen2-tutorials and I was trying to remove the tire from the inside, per Gen1 tutorials), I can only say that the results match the supposition; results were consistent with the seal between the tube and tire moving enough in cornering to constantly break the seal. With the relatively small number of flats reported per i2 user (I can't remember anyone talking about more than one or maybe two), it is really not a big deal to patch a tube; cyclists patch/replace their tubes many times per year and they can sometimes be as difficult as a Segway.

The one exception I can think of is if a user is taking his i2 off pavement in areas where thorns are prevalent -- the goathead variety are particularly nasty.
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/IMAGES/T/W-ZY-TTER-SD.001.jpg
In that case, I'd probably convert the i2 to tubeless and then use Slime.

[bystander]

With all due respect, I believe your experience is limited to use of slime in tubeless tires and Dad is talking about an i2 with tubes. David Sie theorized, and I agree, that in a tube, there is probably not enough thickness to the tube itself for a plug to form within the hole itself, but rather probably flows out of the tube to seal up against the wall of the tire. I recommended using Slime as a last resort because, for me, it was only a temporary fix. Whatever the mechanism, I can tell you from experience, that at 15 lbs of pressure and the relatively high amount of flex, a Slimed tire got me to and from work but required pumping the tire every day. Since INC replaced the wheel and tire and I couldn't find a way to see what was actually going on inside (this was before Gen2-tutorials and I was trying to remove the tire from the inside, per Gen1 tutorials), I can only say that the results match the supposition; results were consistent with the seal between the tube and tire moving enough in cornering to constantly break the seal. With the relatively small number of flats reported per i2 user (I can't remember anyone talking about more than one or maybe two), it is really not a big deal to patch a tube; cyclists patch/replace their tubes many times per year and they can sometimes be as difficult as a Segway.

The one exception I can think of is if a user is taking his i2 off pavement in areas where thorns are prevalent -- the goathead variety are particularly nasty.

In that case, I'd probably convert the i2 to tubeless and then use Slime.I see your point about the possible lack of effectiveness of slime in tubeless vs. tubed tires.

But since the annoying part of the repair process is not the patching itself, it's the drudgery of disassembly, locating the leak, testing for additional leaks, and re-assembling. One may not ride over a nail very often, so doing all the work to patch the tube may not be so bad once every few months. But getting pinhole punctures from the thorns you describe can happen on every single outing. Not much fun to be tearing down the wheel and patching the tube every other day or so. That's why I imagine that, for a "remote" situation like the one at hand, it may be more appropriate to give slime a shot sooner rather than later.

And note, in this case (i2), only the "tube" type of slime should be used, not the tubeless type. Because the standard air pressure of the PT tire is so low, folks using slime on PT (tubeless, haven't heard any reports on tubed) tires are intentionally over-inflating for a few hours to let the slime "do it's thing", then returning pressure to normal. I've heard some recommend going up to 60 psi, but I'm pretty sure 35-40 is plenty. Since SegwayDad's i2 is most likely still under warranty, he may not wish to inflate beyond recommended pressure, which is understandable.

So SegwayDad, bentbiker's advice about slime usage in stock i2 tires (at recommended pressure) is probably more germane than mine, as he has more "in the field" experience than myself with a configuration similar to yours. My advice would be more applicable if you determined the cause of the leaks were indeed pinhole punctures, and you didn't mind over-inflating for a couple of hours.

For what's it's worth, slime is removable, if you apply it and find that it is not working well at the inflation pressure you choose to use.

[Metal Whiskers]

Traction is the main force helping the machine stay upright, and can be overcome by environmental factors, like ice and wet leaves
Could you elaborate or point me to another discussion about how the Segway stays upright in low-traction situations? What are its limits? I have some experience bicycling in winter and a temporary loss of traction can usually be overcome with quick reflexes, otherwise putting a foot down is easy (sans cleats). I would hope the Segway is just as versatile but maybe it isn't.

When the Segway does go down, what typically happens to the rider? Are they easy to step off of in an emergency?

Also, what do owners do when nasty weather moves in or they get a flat and are miles from home? Abandon the Segway and walk? Carry a patch kit like on a bicycle? Phone for help?

Thanks. As you can tell, I'm looking at buying one but am not encouraged by some of the comments I'm reading.

[bentbiker]

. . . Because the standard air pressure of the PT tire is so low, folks using slime on PT (tubeless, haven't heard any reports on tubed) tires are intentionally over-inflating for a few hours to let the slime "do it's thing", then returning pressure to normal. I've heard some recommend going up to 60 psi, but I'm pretty sure 35-40 is plenty. Since SegwayDad's i2 is most likely still under warranty, he may not wish to inflate beyond recommended pressure, which is understandable. Cmonkey's recommendation to overinflate was very specific to tubeless
http://forums.segwaychat.com/showpost.php?p=144221&postcount=29 . As you reiterated, the type of slime is different and the little chunks in the tubless sealant that is forced into the wall of a tubeless tire by overpressurizing is not present in the tube type and couldn't stay in the hole anyway; I'd fear that overpressurizing a slimed tube would merely stretch the hole to a larger size and push more slime out of the tube and into the area between tire and tube.

So SegwayDad, bentbiker's advice about slime usage in stock i2 tires (at recommended pressure) is probably more germane than mine, as he has more "in the field" experience than myself with a configuration similar to yours. My advice would be more applicable if you determined the cause of the leaks were indeed pinhole punctures, and you didn't mind over-inflating for a couple of hours. Again, I wouldn't recommend this on a tube.

For what's it's worth, slime is removable, if you apply it and find that it is not working well at the inflation pressure you choose to use. I know you are correct that it is removable, but it is a mess. Bike shops and automobile tire shops will often refuse to touch a tire that has been Slimed. And once a tube has Slime in it, it would be a real problem to get it out, and the moisture within could make it more difficult to patch the tube. I'd say just toss the tube were it not for INC's refusal to sell the replacements.

**********

[hellphish]

Could you elaborate or point me to another discussion about how the Segway stays upright in low-traction situations? What are its limits? I have some experience bicycling in winter and a temporary loss of traction can usually be overcome with quick reflexes, otherwise putting a foot down is easy (sans cleats). I would hope the Segway is just as versatile but maybe it isn't.

When the Segway does go down, what typically happens to the rider? Are they easy to step off of in an emergency?

Also, what do owners do when nasty weather moves in or they get a flat and are miles from home? Abandon the Segway and walk? Carry a patch kit like on a bicycle? Phone for help?

Thanks. As you can tell, I'm looking at buying one but am not encouraged by some of the comments I'm reading.

Your riding style has to change in low traction environments, and the key is treating your traction while riding the same you would treat the traction on your feet. If you were walking across ice, you would keep your steps rather small and would avoid sudden changes in speed. Failure to do so would probably end in your feet not grabbing the ground and your foot sliding instead of countering your momentum. The nice thing about walking is that you can choose where your next step lands and you have a chance of keeping yourself up. Same on a bike in your example. If your back tire loses grip while you're turning, a quick foot on the ground in the right place will hold it up, hopefully for long enough that the back tire grips again.

On a Segway, the key to coming out of low/no traction events is an even speed. You basically have to treat your current amount of traciton as the MAX amount of traction you have. If you're riding on ice or sand or through a small puddle, it is critical that you don't suddenly try to accelerate or stop or turn, because the change of traction could be too great and could cause the wheel to slip. Usually if only one wheel slips and the other one is fine, the segway will yaw suddenly to the left or the right, and if you're not expecting it your momentum could see you off the side of the platform. Putting a foot down in these conditions will not only be useless, but could be potentially dangerous as well.

The way the Segway works is that it has a baseline goal that it tries to achieve. The goal is a level platform. When you set it off level by leaning, it observers how far away from the goal it is, then it makes a correction by moving the wheels with a certain amount of force. It then measures how close its correction was, and then does another correction (more forceful or less forceful) based on the sucess of the first. It does this about 100 times per second the entire time it is in balance mode. This is the essence of self-balancing technology. Goal-correction-correction...

This can sometimes work against it in really bad conditions, such as beach sand. You tilt the platform a little and the wheels move, but the segway notices that even though it tried to level the platform, it didn't get anywhere... So it tries harder, and still gets nowhere, so it tries even harder. The wheels just dig themselves in as they spin faster and faster and you go down. Putting a foot out at this point is dangerous because you will lighten the load on the wheels, likely causing the wheels to get traction again, sending the unit back toward you. It realises it has traction again but in the few hundreths of a second it took to work that out, it has already built enough momentum to collide with your shin. Best thing to do in this case is go down with it, as it will automatically turn off once the angle of tilt is too extreme.

I don't want to discourage you from buying a segway because the situtaions I described are rather extreme but give a clear picture of what the segway is doing behind the scenes. The key is to be gentle and not to expect the segway to do the impossible, such as an emergency stop in wet grass.

[bentbiker]

Could you elaborate or point me to another discussion about how the Segway stays upright in low-traction situations? What are its limits? I have some experience bicycling in winter and a temporary loss of traction can usually be overcome with quick reflexes, otherwise putting a foot down is easy (sans cleats). I would hope the Segway is just as versatile but maybe it isn't.
When the Segway does go down, what typically happens to the rider? Are they easy to step off of in an emergency? You ask very good questions. When a bike loses traction, it usually results in a sideways slide and as you point out, you can often do a foot dab (even with cleats) and recover nicely. When one of two side-by-side tires suddenly goes faster than the other, there is an almost immediate spinning of the unit. Since the rider isn't leaning into or expecting a turn, and can't easily "dab" to catch their balance, people often say they were down before they ever knew what happened. If you are quite agile, you might still be able to keep your feet, but often not. I would say that loss of traction when you are paying attention and not on ice is rare.

Also, what do owners do when nasty weather moves in or they get a flat and are miles from home? Abandon the Segway and walk? Carry a patch kit like on a bicycle? Phone for help? First, if you are assuming that a little rain is going to cause you a loss of traction, we've probably oversensitized you; as in a car, steady speeds and smooth acceleration will usually prevent any problem -- the tires grip quite well. As on the bike, be aware of wet white lines and train tracks. There are separate threads covering flats, and it really depends on the unit you buy and whether it has tubeless or tube-type tires. If I had a Gen1 unit with tubless tires, I'd insert Slime ahead of time. With an i2 and standard tubes, I previously carried a bottle of tube-type Slime for insertion at the time of a flat, just to get me home. However, the added weight in the handlebar bag affected the handling and I now carry only a patch kit and plastic bike tire irons. You may or may not be able to patch the tire in the field, as with your bike, but if you view the video tutorials referenced elsewhere, in advance, you can probably do it with no more assistance than a vise at bike shop or gas station (to assist in breaking the bead).

Thanks. As you can tell, I'm looking at buying one but am not encouraged by some of the comments I'm reading...........

[bystander]

Cmonkey's recommendation to overinflate was very specific to tubeless
http://forums.segwaychat.com/showpos...1&postcount=29 (http://forums.segwaychat.com/showpost.php?p=144221&postcount=29) . As you reiterated, the type of slime is different and the little chunks in the tubeless sealant that is forced into the wall of a tubeless tire by overpressurizing is not present in the tube type and couldn't stay in the hole anyway; I'd fear that overpressurizing a slimed tube would merely stretch the hole to a larger size and push more slime out of the tube and into the area between tire and tube.
Yeah, I'd fear that too, IF there were plenty of testimonials about slime not working in tubed tires. Slime was developed for inner tubes first, and then afterwards the formula was adapted for tubeless tires. I have no explanation why slime didn't work well in your inner tube. But then I don't know for sure that your problem was confined to pinholes. Perhaps you had a genuine malfunction / production flaw in the inner tube itself that the slime could not overcome.

I know you are correct that it is removable, but it is a mess. Bike shops and automobile tire shops will often refuse to touch a tire that has been Slimed. And once a tube has Slime in it, it would be a real problem to get it out, and the moisture within could make it more difficult to patch the tube. I'd say just toss the tube were it not for INC's refusal to sell the replacements.It could be messy, if one worked at it. What I was thinking of was removing the valve stem, rolling up the tube from the point furthest away from the valve tube, squirting the slime into a bucket. This is assuming that one hasn't any difficulty removing the tire and tube from the rim.

Any slight traces left in the tube would dry up after a few weeks regular use. If there was a need to dry it up immediately, and there was a hole in the tube that needed patching, one could just run low pressure compressed air through the valve stem and out the puncture hole for an hour or so.

Perhaps someone who has actually patched an inner tube with slime in it that has a larger puncture hole (than slime can deal with) could post and estimate the difficulty factor?

I think the shops that "refuse to touch a tire that has been Slimed" have had bad experiences with "fix-a-flat" and don't want to waste any time trying to tell the difference. The "fix-a-flat" residue is rather nasty. Slime is downright benign.

I'm not makin' this stuff up, the slime website (http://www.slimesealant.com/) has an extensive FAQ (http://www.slimesealant.com/index.php?p=faq) that addresses many of these concerns.

[bentbiker]

Yeah, I'd fear that too, IF there were plenty of testimonials about slime not working in tubed tires. Slime was developed for inner tubes first, and then afterwards the formula was adapted for tubeless tires. I have no explanation why slime didn't work well in your inner tube. But then I don't know for sure that your problem was confined to pinholes. Perhaps you had a genuine malfunction / production flaw in the inner tube itself that the slime could not overcome.I think the big difference is the operating pressure with the Segway. I'd be surprised if a lot of testing was done on tubes at 4-15 lbs of pressure. At higher pressures a tube might well stay pressed up against a tire wall well enough to trap Slime between the two and provide a seal. As I mentioned before, my supposition is that at low pressures, there is sufficient flexing and movement of the two relative to each other that any seal between tire and tube would constantly be reopening.

You are right, though, that we don't know the nature of my tube failure, but I suspect a thorn since I removed a bunch the day before and I'm guessing one or more broke off and continued to work their way through. I don't believe anyone other than me has posted here that they've tried the tube-type Slime with a punctured tube. If anyone else has tried it, we'd love to see a post of your results.

[MJEdelman]

Just to clarify -- are i2 tires from the factory tubeless or tubed?

[hellphish]

i2 tires are tubed.

My understanding is that slime works exactly like the platelettes (sp?) in your blood, in that it hardens upon contact with air. A bit of slime leaks out of the tube and forms a little "scab" inside the puncture. Just as with a real scab, some slime (blood) is lost in the process, as well as whatever air pressure was needed to squeeze it through the hole.

I didn't think that the tube-tire relationship had anything to do with it, but if they were contacting eachother oddly, that may mess with the "scab" formation.

[SEGsby]

Great response. Thanks. :)

SEGsby

Your riding style has to change in low traction environments, and the key is treating your traction while riding the same you would treat the traction on your feet. If you were walking across ice, you would keep your steps rather small and would avoid sudden changes in speed. Failure to do so would probably end in your feet not grabbing the ground and your foot sliding instead of countering your momentum. The nice thing about walking is that you can choose where your next step lands and you have a chance of keeping yourself up. Same on a bike in your example. If your back tire loses grip while you're turning, a quick foot on the ground in the right place will hold it up, hopefully for long enough that the back tire grips again.

On a Segway, the key to coming out of low/no traction events is an even speed. You basically have to treat your current amount of traciton as the MAX amount of traction you have. If you're riding on ice or sand or through a small puddle, it is critical that you don't suddenly try to accelerate or stop or turn, because the change of traction could be too great and could cause the wheel to slip. Usually if only one wheel slips and the other one is fine, the segway will yaw suddenly to the left or the right, and if you're not expecting it your momentum could see you off the side of the platform. Putting a foot down in these conditions will not only be useless, but could be potentially dangerous as well.

The way the Segway works is that it has a baseline goal that it tries to achieve. The goal is a level platform. When you set it off level by leaning, it observers how far away from the goal it is, then it makes a correction by moving the wheels with a certain amount of force. It then measures how close its correction was, and then does another correction (more forceful or less forceful) based on the sucess of the first. It does this about 100 times per second the entire time it is in balance mode. This is the essence of self-balancing technology. Goal-correction-correction...

This can sometimes work against it in really bad conditions, such as beach sand. You tilt the platform a little and the wheels move, but the segway notices that even though it tried to level the platform, it didn't get anywhere... So it tries harder, and still gets nowhere, so it tries even harder. The wheels just dig themselves in as they spin faster and faster and you go down. Putting a foot out at this point is dangerous because you will lighten the load on the wheels, likely causing the wheels to get traction again, sending the unit back toward you. It realises it has traction again but in the few hundreths of a second it took to work that out, it has already built enough momentum to collide with your shin. Best thing to do in this case is go down with it, as it will automatically turn off once the angle of tilt is too extreme.

I don't want to discourage you from buying a segway because the situtaions I described are rather extreme but give a clear picture of what the segway is doing behind the scenes. The key is to be gentle and not to expect the segway to do the impossible, such as an emergency stop in wet grass.

[Metal Whiskers]

...I don't want to discourage you from buying a segway because the situtaions I described are rather extreme but give a clear picture of what the segway is doing behind the scenes. The key is to be gentle and not to expect the segway to do the impossible, such as an emergency stop in wet grass.
Thanks for the info. It is hard to discuss Segway operation in words but you did a great job.

While poking around old threads I came across Information from Design News (http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=13752) which links to a couple of articles describing the Segway's inner workings. The exploded diagram is especially interesting.

[hellphish]

Thanks for the info. It is hard to discuss Segway operation in words but you did a great job.

While poking around old threads I came across Information from Design News (http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=13752) which links to a couple of articles describing the Segway's inner workings. The exploded diagram is especially interesting.

I'm glad I could help. Please do me the honor of clicking the scales underneath my avatar to give me positive rep.

[Mr_Laurenzano]

So when you get to town you check your (Segways) with the bar keeper and when leaving town, you pick up your (Segways) from the same saloon? I think I've heard of that somewhere. ;>)

you can pick it up at the local VFW.
oceano airport.
Its a short runway but a nice view.
Crash:D

[polo_pro]

you can pick it up at the local VFW.
oceano airport.
Its a short runway but a nice view.
Crash:D

I landed there once...damn narrow runway! But you can't beat the view!!