UK Press Release & Lobbying for UK Legalisation

[CovRob]

Looking through the press release Nick posted http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=16861 I can't help thinking that the reluctance/lethargy to legitimise Segways for UK use in public areas is because the current regime haven't yet figured out how to tax it.

[nickyboy]

Looking through the press release Nick posted http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=16861 I can't help thinking that the reluctance/lethargy to legitimise Segways for UK use in public areas is because the current regime haven't yet figured out how to tax it.

More than a few people have suggested that to me. Just think of all the congestion charges, fuel taxes and parking revenue that would be lost in London alone.

There is a sustained push for a trial with BAA.

I briefly met with Nicola Dallatana yesterday afternoon and he told me that there are a few MP's (Government and Opposition) who appear to be taking things seriously. He did say that Alan Whitehead MP (Chair of Associate Parliamentary Renewable and Sustainable Energy Group) was very interested and did appear to be taking a genuine interest. Nicola told me that he's dealt with many polaticians and can usually tell when they mean what they say, they are the same the world over!

Nicola was on his way to meet up with Isidore when I left him, so Isidore may have more information than me.

[CovRob]

Nicola was on his way to meet up with Isidore when I left him, so Isidore may have more information than me.
I look forward to more information / updates on progress with interest.

[gbrandwood]

I can't help thinking that the reluctance/lethargy to legitimise Segways for UK use in public areas is because the current regime haven't yet figured out how to tax it.I'd have no problem if the government wanted us to pass a basic proficiency test before gliding. This could be chargeable. A mini licence even? I'm going through all that now anyway trying to pass my motorbike test. Two wheels are the best, aren't they?

Seriosuly, I know testing isn't applied to electric wheelchairs or bicycles (where the types of risk might be similar), but a complete newbie up on a Segway really could do some harm (to themselves, others or property). It's one of the issues Disney seem to mention.

I would go for the advanced gliding test and become a registered AG (Advanced Glider).

[Isidore]

More than a few people have suggested that to me. Just think of all the congestion charges, fuel taxes and parking revenue that would be lost in London alone.

There is a sustained push for a trial with BAA.

I briefly met with Nicola Dallatana yesterday afternoon and he told me that there are a few MP's (Government and Opposition) who appear to be taking things seriously. He did say that Alan Whitehead MP (Chair of Associate Parliamentary Renewable and Sustainable Energy Group) was very interested and did appear to be taking a genuine interest. Nicola told me that he's dealt with many polaticians and can usually tell when they mean what they say, they are the same the world over!

Nicola was on his way to meet up with Isidore when I left him, so Isidore may have more information than me.

Well, Nicola was more upbeat than I've seen him in a long time. The impression I got was similar to Nick's, that there are some good contacts there who are beginning to understand what the Seg can do for urban transport and also for security forces, Police/ airports etc. There are a number of things coming together which give us greater momentum. The imminent Dutch legislation should also be a huge help and with some advocates in government that Nicola seems to have got on board, we have a much better chance. I will certainly be seeing what us central London users can do to help with lobbying- I can walk to the Houses of Parliament from here in 15 minutes, let alone Segway! The BAA trial (British Airports Authority) at Heathrow starts early next month and it will give useful publicity if not new information- how many airports are already using Segs- it's a no brainer answer, but it will give us exposure here, in front of the politicians' noses every time they flit off on some official trip. Its got to be a good thing. And generally I detect a less obstructive attitude- I even had two constables asking me for a ride this morning, though their sergeant turned up and they had to revert to being a bit more 'correct' before I let them on my machine.

[seglander]

Hey guys - sounds like things are moving for all over there - can you let me know which publication the press release was / is published in.

I would like a publised copy for my files here as we are also building our case.

[nickyboy]

Hey guys - sounds like things are moving for all over there - can you let me know which publication the press release was / is published in.

I would like a publised copy for my files here as we are also building our case.

Sorry Martin, I only have the hard copy given to me.

A copy is in the post to you.

[nickyboy]

I'd have no problem if the government wanted us to pass a basic proficiency test before gliding. This could be chargeable. A mini licence even? I'm going through all that now anyway trying to pass my motorbike test. Two wheels are the best, aren't they?

Seriosuly, I know testing isn't applied to electric wheelchairs or bicycles (where the types of risk might be similar), but a complete newbie up on a Segway really could do some harm (to themselves, others or property). It's one of the issues Disney seem to mention.

I would go for the advanced gliding test and become a registered AG (Advanced Glider).

I have suggested this to Wayne in the past.

I for one, as a dealer, would be prepared to go through a basic training certification scheme with all buyers of new or used machines. It would need to be properly policed (no pun intended) with the right paperwork etc.
Typically, I see it a little like your CBT (compulsory basic training). Introduction to the Segway, how it operates, basic manouveres, what to do in an emergency etc etc. It should take no more than the hour or so we spend with new buyers anyway, it just formalises it a little more.

[seglander]

http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/smileys/beerchug.gif

[gbrandwood]

It's an interesting idea as it would make the role of the dealer even more important. Everyone would benefit from a formal sign-off of training.

[SegWayne]

It's an interesting idea as it would make the role of the dealer even more important. Everyone would benefit from a formal sign-off of training.

I'm really in favor of this sort of thing. I have long advocated some sort of id that would show prior official training/experience so rental and tour operators could offer expedited and advance touring options.

[CovRob]

I'd have no problem if the government wanted us to pass a basic proficiency test before gliding. This could be chargeable. A mini licence even?
While I can see this might be appealing I think it is unlikely to be progressed. The current political philosophy is "light touch" bureaucrocy...despite us all seeing more and more red-tape that contradicts this. For a licencing process to be applied the machines would have to be registered and regulated. Final testing for full licences, etc. is still in the hands of a Government Agency. Certainly for CBT approval and initial training private companies conduct matters, but for the formal licence...back to officialdom.

For Segways to be integrated into our current infrastructure I personally still see the easiest, least complicated and most likely route is to have an amended electrically assisted pedal cycle definintion drawn up (as was done for mopeds in 1977 - eliminating the need for pedals to assist propulsion). If that could be done then the same regulations would apply to Segs as they do to bikes. I can never see them being accepted here as a "pedestrian" machine as advocated in many parts of the U.S. Unlike disparate acceptance of the devices in their homeland, the UK would need an all-encapsulating legislative acceptance to make them legal from Lands End to the Welsh Borders and just beyong Hadrian's Wall, if not the whole of the UK.

[nickyboy]

While I can see this might be appealing I think it is unlikely to be progressed. The current political philosophy is "light touch" bureaucrocy...despite us all seeing more and more red-tape that contradicts this. For a licencing process to be applied the machines would have to be registered and regulated. Final testing for full licences, etc. is still in the hands of a Government Agency. Certainly for CBT approval and initial training private companies conduct matters, but for the formal licence...back to officialdom.

For Segways to be integrated into our current infrastructure I personally still see the easiest, least complicated and most likely route is to have an amended electrically assisted pedal cycle definintion drawn up (as was done for mopeds in 1977 - eliminating the need for pedals to assist propulsion). If that could be done then the same regulations would apply to Segs as they do to bikes. I can never see them being accepted here as a "pedestrian" machine as advocated in many parts of the U.S. Unlike disparate acceptance of the devices in their homeland, the UK would need an all-encapsulating legislative acceptance to make them legal from Lands End to the Welsh Borders and just beyong Hadrian's Wall, if not the whole of the UK.

So, do you see Seg's only being legal on the roads then?

Surely cyclelanes, open spaces and pedestrianised areas would be appropriate. What about all the local "Hells Grannies" terrorising the high street in their 12mph mobility scooters (designed for road use!)? You may think I am joking, but in the town my mother lives they are a real problem.

[CovRob]

So, do you see Seg's only being legal on the roads then?

Surely cyclelanes, open spaces and pedestrianised areas would be appropriate. . .


Not just roads, but as you say cycle lanes, open spaces. Pedestrian areas? Not so sure...I certainly don't see UK acceptance of them being allowed everywhere a pedestrian can go...again, just my personal opinion. We have been waiting years to see some sort of official acknowledment of them. I really do hope some positive progress is being made.

[nickyboy]

Not just roads, but as you say cycle lanes, open spaces. Pedestrian areas? Not so sure...I certainly don't see UK acceptance of them being allowed everywhere a pedestrian can go...again, just my personal opinion. We have been waiting years to see some sort of official acknowledment of them. I really do hope some positive progress is being made.

As Isidore said, Nicola was very upbeat about the meetings he'd had. Let's just hope there's lots of posative reaction from the people that matter.

I don't think there's anything we (as enthusiasts or dealers) can do now, just behave responsably keep the pressure on and hope. One thing is for sure, its not likely to happen overnight.

[Isidore]

I would also think the simplest way forward is to amend the electrically assisted bicycle regs to accommodate the segway. That way we are legal wherever a bicycle is. As for the issue of cycling on the pavement, this is a hot potato in some areas and not in others but the worse that will happen to you is a small fine for 'cycling on the pavement'. In practice if you are going at the speed of the pedestrians and not trying to ride down the pavement in Oxford Street when only people with one leg have enough room to stand, you probably won't be bothered. I think this is more or less where most European countries are heading. The disabled lobby may manage to get more flexibility for Segways in pedestrian areas- a seg is certainly safer in many ways than those electric chariots that many elderly people use

[Suzined]

So how about a letter to various UK Tourist Bureaus and local councils asking if disabled tourists are welcome in the UK with their Segways? Specifically I'd like to visit my former haunts around RAF Alconbury and RAF Mildenhall. Absent a favorable response, I could always visit some other European country. How come I could beat up the English countryside and throw rooster tails with my afterburner over lakes in Scotland with my F-4 but might create mayhem on the Greens of Cambridge with a 12 mph Segway? Wierd.

I've just had a wonderful twelve day trip to San Fransisco, Salt Lake, Denver, and Colorado Springs. United Airlines, Frontier, and Delta were absolutely outstanding. Percy was lonely in the belly of the birds but perked up when he saw me as I exited the aircraft. Traveling with a Segway is a cut above first class! I'd really enjoy visiting the United Kingdom again. A Segway is about the only way to see the British Museum and certainly the best way to wander about the Lake District. It would be a disaster for the UK if it were known she is unfriendly to disabled tourists.

[gbrandwood]

While I can see this might be appealing I think it is unlikely to be progressed.I have to agree with this. It ain't going to happen but it would be cool if it did. And if it did, the same should be applied to electric wheelchairs and the like. Maybe even mums with strollers (or dads) ;)

I personally still see the easiest, least complicated and most likely route is to have an amended electrically assisted pedal cycle definition drawn upIt may well be the easiest option but I see it as short sighted. If we get that, we're stuck on the roads forever. And there is no way ever I am riding my Segway in the road amongst traffic. Have you tried it Rob? Segs are wider than bikes and can't travel as fast - they just don't integrate into vehicle infrastructure and were never designed for this. With drivers over here not expecting to see anything like a Segway on the road, I wouldn't want to be the first headline.

Now I know Isidore uses his Seg as a bike everyday in London, and I admit some pavements are too crowded (certainly in his neck of the woods) but such issues are not insurmountable.

Bottom line, Segways were designed to fit in with pedestrian infrastructure and thats the only place I'll ever ride em, and from what I read on here, that's where most people use them.

I can never see them being accepted here as a "pedestrian" machine as advocated in many parts of the U.S.I have to disagree on this. Mine is accepted as a pedestrian PT wherever I've been, and whilst the petition I setup only has a few hundred signatures, they see it that way, it's not just me.:) And some of the comments associated tell me that lots of people are inclined to accept it - because they see the many benefits.Unlike disparate acceptance of the devices in their homeland, the UK would need an all-encapsulating legislative acceptance to make them legal from Lands End to the Welsh Borders and just beyong Hadrian's Wall, if not the whole of the UK.This is a problem and I'm not an expert on these things. Something from high in the EU would help I guess, but if we had something at least in England, or Wales, or Scotland, then I'm pretty sure in time the other countries would follow suit.

(And my title for this post was a reference to Saw IV, which I 'saw' last night. )

[gbrandwood]

So how about a letter to various UK Tourist Bureaus and local councils asking if disabled tourists are welcome in the UK with their Segways?Suzined, if they quote the law you simply will not be allowed. Private property is another matter (museums etc)., and they can do what they like with regard to Segways. The Segway is not a recognised invalid carriage over here, unlike the American EPAMD. :(

[CovRob]

It may well be the easiest option but I see it as short sighted. If we get that, we're stuck on the roads forever. And there is no way ever I am riding my Segway in the road amongst traffic. Have you tried it Rob? Segs are wider than bikes and can't travel as fast - they just don't integrate into vehicle infrastructure and were never designed for this. With drivers over here not expecting to see anything like a Segway on the road, I wouldn't want to be the first headline.
I know this the one main point of disagreement between us, as has been dicussed before. I respect your opinion, but I personally see footpath legality as a far bigger obstacle (one that may never succeed, as well) to overcome than acceptance as a bicycle.

Wider than bikes...I recall a recent thread on that very topic which analysed the perceptions and actuality I don't agree entirely, based on the amount of room a passing driver should afford a glider / rider. :o

I ride my Seg on a road every day. I don't have the luxury of footpaths where I live. However - it is not busy and I know the urban environment I came from a couple of years go would have been more tricky to glide around. Equality with cycles does open up cycle paths, etc. too though.

Bottom line, Segways were designed to fit in with pedestrian infrastructure and thats the only place I'll ever ride em, and from what I read on here, that's where most people use them.
In the land of it's conception, maybe...and even that is not true throughout the whole country, as evidenced by many discussions on here. I say again, the UK position would be national legalisation, not piecemeal for different locations. If we take on a battle, it needs to be one we have a hope of winning...and NATIONAL legal acceptance of the Segway having equal status to a pedestrian is not a battle I see ever being won here, now matter how desireable to us in the know.

[gbrandwood]

And Rob, I respect your opinions on this too. At least we are both hoping for a change in the same direction, I just plan on it going a little further.

As for the width issue, I'm not sure entirely but I would imagine it easier for a car to swipe the wheel on a seg than it would on a bike. Especially as the wheel on the seg is lower down, and if you were in a car, close to the seg. you might not even know where the wheels are.

The only other thing I'll say is that the Segway may well be an American invention, however the concept was always a global one.

Off to the gym... on my seg... on the pavement...