Possible i2 battery problem? (red light)

[gbrandwood]

Hiya guys

I'm hoping you may be able to offer some advice.

I took delivery of my i2 back in December last year. Around March time this year, I started getting a red light on the front battery. My i2 would still work but obviously red = bad. On the advice of my dealer (and I believe the manual too), I swapped the packs around and have not had any problems since - until a two or three days ago. After a couple of mile glide I put the i2 on charge and when I came back to it noticed the back battery pack was now flashing red. Uh oh :eek:! I powered it up ok, powered it down and put it back on charge. Checking it today I notice both lights are flashing green.

Does this sounds like I've got a bad pack? My warranty is up in December so I'm worried now the problem is going to bite me in the *** just after the warranty expires.

I've reported the issue to my dealer via e-mail and I'm awaiting their advice. I'm planning on calling him towards the end of the month to check out some accessories so if I've not heard back by then, I'll mention it when I call.

In the meantime, my mind would like to know if I really should be worried.

Many thanks

[ashley]

I had a similar problen on my I2 one battery kept coming up as a red steady light. But not all the time in a random manner.The condition followed the same battery though. I consulted the local agent here in New Zealand and e sent me a replacement new battery and all has been well since. I have now done 1350 miles on my I2 of which probably the last 400 have been on the replacement battery. I would say make sure you get action while you are still under warranty.

All best from Downunder
Ashley

[wwhopper]

We have had lots of problems with AE

Get your dealer to put in an RMA and replace the battery. And closely watch your other battery too.

Make sure you do this before your warranty runs out - otherwize #OUCH#!

[Isidore]

Gareth, I've got exactly the same problem, started off occasionally getting red on one cell at completion of charge and this has gradually worsened to the point where I now always get one cell red. I have also noticed a reduction in performance when the batteries are anything below half charged and a significant reduction in range (down from about 18 miles to about 14/15. Waiting for Wayne to sort it out.

[gbrandwood]

Thanks all. I guess I was hoping you'd tell me it was nothing to worry about and how it might be a tail light feature ;) but it'll need sorting.

And Isidore, if Wayne is sorting one out for you, he might as well order two!

[gbrandwood]

Well, sent an e-mail to my dealer. Phoned him up. Wrote a letter. Got a phonecall back suggesting I swap them around again. He's not convinced it's a battery problem and perhaps it might be a connection issue. I hope so. He suggests cleaning the connections when I swap them. Anyway, I went to use it last Friday (on the night I was chased by the police) and it wouldn't start up. Red rear light again and trying to start it a few times gave me E027 I think on the infokey, with a wrench. That's a new one to me. It started eventually but only showed a half charge. For some reason I videod it on my phone! Checked again this morning and red again. :-( My dealer said if it is a battery problem he'll swap it - this makes me feel a little better but puts my ride at risk the mean time.

So, I guess I'll swap the battery round one more time. But if that doesn't fix it, it MUST be the battery.

[Isidore]

Gareth: Wayne says he now has new batteries. He is sending me one new one under warranty and I have been twisting his arm to get another one at 'cost' so that I have two batteries of the new series. - Will Hopper suggested this was the best way forward and I agreed with him as there have been some changes since we bought our machines- mine is just coming up to a year old and 1750 miles. I assume your batteries are also AE series?

[wwhopper]

Here is the following response for putting in that error code into the magic box of Gen Two Answers!

Error code: E027

The Rear CU Board reports: Fault detected in the battery pack attached to me

Recommended Action: (1) Swap positions of battery packs to verify fault follows that battery pack (Red charge indicator LED should accompany this error code when the PT is plugged into AC), (2) Replace battery pack if same error code is persistent

So you are doing what your dealer said to do. Swap to verify that the fault follows the battery.

And if the fault continues your dealer should put in an RMA for that battery and replace it with a new one. I think it is a good idea to get two of the same revision batteries running on your machine. Between Isidore and you, you will have one full set of AE batteries - just keep them charged, so they will be there when you need them.

Even if your battery is out of warranty, let your dealer know of your problems - they may not be able to replace your battery cost free, but it is good for them to report the problem back to the mothership, so there is a record of it.

[gbrandwood]

Thanks, Will. Appreciate you taking the time to check that for me.

Isidore, I'll check my batteries tomorrow night. Got the error again tonight but didn't get a chance to swap them around. What's the theory about needing a matching pair?

[wwhopper]

What's the theory about needing a matching pair?

From the old days when we were told that your machine would perform to the level of your poorest battery.

Mixing two revision batteries is OK, but having two that match will keep you as close as possible so that they perform to the maximum you can get out of them.

I had a bad NiMH battery on my I-167 which I never figured out until it was out of warranty. But when I replaced the bad one, and ran the new one with the other older one, the machinel was never quite as good as the other one was with two brand new batteries.

[gbrandwood]

I assume your batteries are also AE series?Did the swap tonight and annoyingly, the light was green before I swapped and after. Will give it a few goes over the next few days and see how it fayres.

I checked the sticker when I swapped the batteries round. It has AE printed on it but then scribbled out in blue pen and AF written next to it, on both batteries. Go figure :rolleyes: Anyway, the process also killed a spider so I feel a little bad right now. :(

And, is it just me or does the Seg make a hum from the batteries even when turned off and unplugged from the mains? I'm sure I could hear a little buzzing. I assume this is perfectly normal?

[Isidore]

The scribbling's a bit weird! Mine also makes a very quiet buzz when it's off- some part of the electronics must be on otherwise how would it hear the infokey? If you end up going for a pair of cells and you have one old spare, let me know and perhaps we can work out what to do with our spare pair between us, a Will suggested. Even if you have had one green charge cycle you will probably find it will shortly go back to red- my problem started as an occasional issue before going to an red light every charge. At the moment I am down to a range of about 13 miles and after about 7 the seg won't go over 11 mph. It's amazing how slow that feels!

[wwhopper]

is common - is it in green felt tip ink or is it black/blue ball point? - not that it makes much difference - obviously the end of the run and they had not made up new labels yet.

I have found with my own I2 - now that the fall is here and the temps are cooler - not cold - I have found my I2 does not fly up hills like it did during the summer months. But on the warm days it is back to its old ways.

Keep a close eye on your batteries and their performance, they are the key to your happiness on a Segway.

Have you tried the old NiMH conditioning program on the Li Ion? It can't hurt them.

[wwhopper]

When I was visting a dealer, they talked about that, and I got to hear a high pitched hum coming from a machine that was charging.

I have never heard that before on any of the machines that have come into our shop. But it should be quiet.

Have your dealer look into that as well. Like anything, if it does something different than it did when brand new, may mean something that needs to be looked into.

It is important to report all odd things like this to Inc. through the dealer network so that if there is an issue it can be addressed.

[SEGsby]

It would be awesome if the "Magic Box of Gen Two Answers" was converted into a web app, that any user could visit and input their error codes in...

It would be most helpful for gen2 owners.

SEGsby

Here is the following response for putting in that error code into the magic box of Gen Two Answers!

Error code: E027

The Rear CU Board reports: Fault detected in the battery pack attached to me

Recommended Action: (1) Swap positions of battery packs to verify fault follows that battery pack (Red charge indicator LED should accompany this error code when the PT is plugged into AC), (2) Replace battery pack if same error code is persistent

So you are doing what your dealer said to do. Swap to verify that the fault follows the battery.

And if the fault continues your dealer should put in an RMA for that battery and replace it with a new one. I think it is a good idea to get two of the same revision batteries running on your machine. Between Isidore and you, you will have one full set of AE batteries - just keep them charged, so they will be there when you need them.

Even if your battery is out of warranty, let your dealer know of your problems - they may not be able to replace your battery cost free, but it is good for them to report the problem back to the mothership, so there is a record of it.

[wwhopper]

It would be awesome if the "Magic Box of Gen Two Answers" was converted into a web app, that any user could visit and input their error codes in...

It would be most helpful for gen2 owners.

SEGsby

For you to ask INC. to provide as a benefit for the new Segway Enthusiast Group.

Put a little webvertising on it directing you to your local dealer and maybe they might convert it to something that the enthusiast can access.

[SEGsby]

That's an even better idea. Get ad money from people using it...

SEGsby

For you to ask INC. to provide as a benefit for the new Segway Enthusiast Group.

Put a little webvertising on it directing you to your local dealer and maybe they might convert it to something that the enthusiast can access.

[gbrandwood]

Just an update and another question.

Recap: my dealer suggested I swap the batteries - I did and all was fine. However, twice now I've noticed the front light has been on red. Not permanently, it eventually goes green, but that is not a good sign. So, another e-mail to my dealer and he's asked me to check one more thing. He's asked me to measure the voltage off both batteries when they only have one bar left of charge (according to the InfoKey).

I'd just done a complete cycle of the batteries so I had to wait a while for the batteries to drain in alarm mode (mostly idling, a little riding inbetween the bad weather).

I took the batteries off, measured the voltage and got the following readings:

Front (potential problem batter): 72.9
Rear (never given me a red light): 74.0

They don't seem miles apart. Should this tell me anything? Are these readings normal? My warranty has now expired btw but it sounds like my dealer will swap it if needed.

Thanks for any insight you can give. - oh, and happy holidays, too!

[SEGsby]

ANY TIME the battery goes red, it indicates a problem. Electronics never "heal" themselves, and batteries only get worse over time...

I would have the dealer replace the bad battery, if that's an option for you.

Been having some problems with cold weather here. I would go for 6 miles and end up with only 2 bars left. Kinda sucked, so I bought a new pack, with the idea that the weakest pack is probably at issue-- I just needed to find the right one to replace.

Problem was, the "new" battery from the dealer would start off on Green, but would enter the initial blinking phase, then turn Red and stay that way. It would happen each time, so I took that battery back and got another one shipped in from LLC a week later. One of the interesting things to note, was the included Segway docs say if you haven't charged your battery within a month's time; it's probably damaged. Interesting.

This latest battery appeared to have some charging done to it, and went into trickle charge mode sooner than I expected. I have swapped both older packs out, and now I think I've found the weakest one that had a poor reaction to the cold. Last night's glide left me with 4 bars after 12 miles, and not once did the unit complain I was going too fast. The bad pack ended up being the replacement I got under warranty, for an earlier battery issue. :P

Let us know how you get yours sorted out. Red is bad... I would have it replaced ASAP.

SEGsby

[bentbiker]

I'd just done a complete cycle of the batteries so I had to wait a while for the batteries to drain in alarm mode (mostly idling, a little riding inbetween the bad weather).

I took the batteries off, measured the voltage and got the following readings:

Front (potential problem batter): 72.9
Rear (never given me a red light): 74.0

They don't seem miles apart. Should this tell me anything?
Gareth, I believe it has been stated that the alarm is run only off the rear battery. If so, you may have narrowed the differential by forcing the rear to discharge. You might want to re-do the test without using the alarm. Just leave it in RBM against a wall if you can't ride.

[Tory]

Please excuse my newbee question but how will I ever find out without my fellow gliders advise. What does and how do you reset batteries and for what purpose. Thanks Tory:confused::confused::confused:

[wwhopper]

Please excuse my newbee question but how will I ever find out without my fellow gliders advise. What does and how do you reset batteries and for what purpose. Thanks Tory:confused::confused::confused:

Use your allen wrench provided, and remove the batteries. Often when you replace them on the machine you will swap them front to back and back to front.

This often fixes a problem that you might be having with a machine, or in a bad battery case, the red light will follow the battery. I have found that it makes Gen Two machines who have forgotten their Info Keys, to remember them. Nothing worse than an I-2 with early keyizmers!

[SEGsby]

Also, if you want to "reboot" the Segway, take both packs off at the SAME TIME (i.e., no power to either CPU board). Let the machine sit for a couple minutes (to completely discharge / reset), then reinstall the packs.

SEGsby

[Madsegs]

My new AF batteries are great in hot but crap in the cold......and its not below freezing here when i use them.
I have seen the AB crossed out and AC written on them from inc. (earlier post in this thread).
If anyone here that has bought 2 new batts and has a half good older one i am interested as i had the same and have one AB doing nothing.

Still prefer the NiMh and they all still work fine. My 2002 grey NiMh only manage 13km now but do a tour with a lighter person or my girlfriend. I do rotate my tour segs but they also get plenty of use. Only on the hottest days (40c+/110f+) and 3 tours in one day with them do i get issues. I use 2 air conditioners to cool them between tours and remove the mats as they will not start to charge in excessive heat and usage.

[gbrandwood]

I reported the figures to my dealer who has confirmed the readings for the front one, combined with the intermittant red lights, indicate the battery is bad. I noticed, BTW, when removing the battery (yet again - man I hate doing that) to get the serial number, that the battery has 73.6 VDC printed on it. My dealer suggested anything below 73 is bad, just in case this is usful to anyone else.

Fingers crossed it will come soon with my accessories!! :)

Thanks for all the advice on this thread off everyone. Much appreciated.

[gbrandwood]

Replacement battery arrived, fitted, charged. Went out for the first time today to the gym. I left the seg as I normally do in alarm mode inside the gym foyer (I love doing that - no parking outside and much further in than the cyclists who are chaining their bike up just inside the entrance).

After the gym session, I tried to get the seg out of alarm mode. No joy. I got a wrench and E10A. Hmmm. Machine turned itself off. Tried again. Same error. Again, same. A minute or two later, it started. Thank god for that! Made it nearly all the way home and then it did an emergency shutdown on me and would not start. Tried several times since and no joy. So, the not so long walk home followed and I put it straight on charge. Will test it again later. From the error code thread, E10A seems to be a powerbase failure.

I just know I'm going to have to swap batteries around again (which I now hate doing) and I'm not going to have any confidence in the machine for a while.

Is the E10A really a serious powerbase failure? I guess I'll call my dealer, but I'm just out of warranty.

Any suggestions guys? Magic cures?

[wwhopper]

Sounds like there may be more of an issue than just a battery.

Swap the battery to the rear, and see if you get the same problem code show up. If so then it sounds like it needs a trip to the Segway Hospital!

[SegDog]

Hello,

In my quest for BK

[SegDog]

Oops, it took-off at edit

Hello,

In my quest for BK, I've been carefully reading and note-taking on the battery threads. Working with gel-cells and other lead-acids has given me working knowledge, but not with other chemistry. Generally, the nominal voltage, e.g. 76VDC, is the optimal reading, and on the low end, again generally, just a couple-three volts less (in this range). Somewhere it was mentioned that some batteries read 80VDC. which has me curious, and I will follow-up.

I've witnessed bad batches of batteries, in the past. Where new batteries failed and their replacement failed. Quality control is questionable here. I don't know how many battery problems there are, and don't know if they're similar problems, but I do know that I'd be POed if I was out-of-service for a week. It's time for INC to make available loaner sets of batteries and powerbases at the dealer level, not at the dealers expense.

[SegwayJay]

I had a similar issue with one charging light remaining red. Swapped the batteries and the red light DID NOT follow the battery.

took it back to INC (I live only an hour away) and it turned out I had to have the controller board replaced.

Fortunately, it was under warranty...Otherwise: $800.00!

SegwayJay

[segsurfer]

I had a similar issue with one charging light remaining red. Swapped the batteries and the red light DID NOT follow the battery.

took it back to INC (I live only an hour away) and it turned out I had to have the controller board replaced.

Fortunately, it was under warranty...Otherwise: $800.00!

SegwayJay

Dodged a bullet on that one eh?;)
-segsurfer

[gbrandwood]

Tried starting it a few times. Sometimes it starts straight away. I come back later and it won't start. Same error. :(

Following some sage advice from Mr Hopper, I have swapped the packs around (man I hate that) and will try again tonight (if possible). The battery screws on the front seemed a little loose - so I'm hoping that might also be part of the problem. The connection block on the front battery also rattles around more than it does on the rear pack - but I guess if it makes a connection, all is well.

I noticed the Segway will attempt to start with only the rear battery attached, but not the front. You get an error E042 (I think) which must mean "Whoa! No front battery detected. Man, what are you thinking?!?!" (yes, that is what the Segway technical error code database reports ;)). Will keep this thread posted.

My warranty might be out, but I'm pretty sure from what Socrates (Alex) posted earlier, plus what the law would consider "fit for purpose" and "reasonable quality", I can expect to get service for failures like this which are not caused by myself, longer than for 12 months. Batteries may be a different thing but when you spend £4k on some transport tech, you expect it to be free of manufacturing/workmanship flaws for longer than 12 months. This may only be the case in the UK/europe though, and I'm confident my dealer will not need me to press the issue (they've been good so far).

[SegDog]

Hello,

That one observation piqued my interest more than anything else. Loose connections are often the culprit.

Good show, mate.

[Desert_Seg]

My warranty might be out, but I'm pretty sure from what Socrates (Alex) posted earlier, plus what the law would consider "fit for purpose" and "reasonable quality", I can expect to get service for failures like this which are not caused by myself, longer than for 12 months. Batteries may be a different thing but when you spend £4k on some transport tech, you expect it to be free of manufacturing/workmanship flaws for longer than 12 months. This may only be the case in the UK/europe though, and I'm confident my dealer will not need me to press the issue (they've been good so far).

I wouldn't hold your breath. If the dealer does anything it is because they are a considerate group of folks (as most Segway dealers are). However, there is no requirement for them to provide such support if the unit is out of warranty.

BTW, the E10A error code means:

"The Front CU Board reports: Unable to communicate with the battery pack attached to me

Recommended Action: Swap positions of the battery packs and restart. If the same error code is persistent, replace the power base or return to factory for service. If another error code is displayed, decode new error and follow those steps"

Steven

[gbrandwood]

Ha ha, Steven, I was thinking of you as I wrote my last message. I expected a reply. :)

I believe you are right though - I will be okay because, despite some delays, my dealer has been good to me so far, and I believe I have been a good customer.

Thanks for the error code def, BTW (would still love the error code DB to be on-line though).

However, if push came to shove, and I really believe it will not, I think I could fight my way through, but I don't even want to think like that because I am confident this will be resolved (hopefully by simply following your advice, and the advice of Will). So I may hold my breath, as (I think :p) the law would be on my side: http://www3.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html

[gbrandwood]

Just a little update... my fingers are crossed...

After fiddling with my batteries, swapping them around, I kind of figured that whenever I put the new battery on the front, I got the front controller error (E10A), and when I put it on the back, I got the back controller error code (E102). So... I spoke to my dealer and in fine form, he sent out another battery, not sounding terribly convinced the one he'd already sent me might be the problem.

I put the "new" battery on and hey presto no error! I've not had much chance to use it yet but at least it starts now. It hasn't started up for days (and didn't right up until I swapped the battery). So I'm guessing my original replacement battery (which seemed to be slightly used) was actually problematic. The latest battery (seems to be brand-new!!) works.

I'll confirm back to my dealer and hopefully I can keep the "new" battery!! Oh to be gliding again.

And to top it all off I also got my kickstand. (Not tried it yet though.) So a big thumbs up to my dealer http://forums.segwaychat.com/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://forums.segwaychat.com/images/icons/icon14.gif. And thanks again to all whom have assisted on this thread.