New York is looking VERY un-Segway friendly!

[lipinsky]

I just had a friendly call with Troop K of the New York State Police in Somers, New York. The trooper stated that any vehicle powered by other than human power needs to be registered. On Monday I will call the New York DMV to see if I can register my Segway.

http://www.megalaw.com/ny/nycodetoc.php?QUERYDATA=$$VAT125$$@TXVAT0125
"§ 125. Motor vehicles. Every vehicle operated or driven upon a public highway which is propelled by any power other than muscular power, except (a) electrically-driven mobility assistance devices operated or driven by a person with a disability ..."

http://www.megalaw.com/ny/nycodetoc.php?QUERYDATA=$$VAT401$$@TXVAT0401
says that "No motor vehicle shall be operated or driven upon the public highways of this state without first being registered in accordance with the provisions of this article, except as otherwise expressly provided in this chapter." He was not sure that I could get the Segway registered by the DMV.

Maybe an out? "§ 121-c. Limited use vehicle. A motor vehicle, other than one registered or capable of being registered pursuant to sections four hundred one or four hundred ten of this chapter, which has a maximum performance speed of not more than forty miles per hour, as defined in section one hundred twenty-two-b of this chapter."

§ 401. Registration of motor vehicles;
§ 410. Registration of motorcycles;


I asked what the violation would be and how much it would cost me. The Trooper said it would be driving an unregistered vehicle (about $100)and if the officer was having a bad day I might also get written up for: not having license plates, no tail lights, no headlights, no windshield wipers and more.

"Will you really write me up?" "Yes."

I am going to try to use this http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/forms/mv82.pdf based upon these instructions http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/forms/mv821.pdf

A search of the NYS DMV site returned no references to "Segway."

I am not sure that I am going to be able to use this anywhere in New York State. Where I live there aren't any sidewalks.

I am not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV. Any real ones out there to help (could get great visability!)?

This isn't looking very promising -- this isn't good! I will take my Segway out to commute until I get written up and then I will need to figure out the publicity angle. I plan to attempt to do everything that appears to be required and see what happens.

I am not happy about all of this, it takes the fun out of waiting for training and receiving my Segway!

[PoloAk]

lipinsky, I know that NYC should be Segway friendly very soon. I'd find out what their position is (through the Mayor's office) and arm yourself with some information. Then contact your local city council. Most people don't know what a Segway is and therefore give you a lot of unnecessary information. Maybe ask the council if you could do a demonstration of the device, but contact them to find out what the rules would be. Really, though, the Segway is neither motorcycle nor car. Its closer to a moped and a scooter.

My rule, if they make the law, then talk to them first.

Dont give up hope!


Kelsey

[lipinsky]

Thanks Kelsey, but it really doesn't matter what NYC says. State law supercedes any local ordinances. It wouldn't help.

But I am certainly open to trying anything!

[cstull]

It looks like the 121.C is your out. Think about it, there are lots of motorized vehicles in NY that are not street legal including ATV's, mopeds, etc.

It looks like, for now, you are lumped into that category.

Craig

[fredkap]

Keep it on the sidewalks except at intersections. In all of the states where Segs are legal it is treated as a pedestrian. Where I live pedestrians regularly walk in the streets except in the business district. That is exactly what I have been doing.

[SegwayLongIsland]

Lipinski..please take a deep breath. Now take another!!

The legislation in NY is already a good part written. It looks like you can use the Segway under these conditions:

1) either in the street or on the sidewalk ANYWHERE in NY State without doing anything like registering it, etc.

2) not on the sidewalk (but in the street) in any city with more than 1 million people except for official business or commercial business.

3) individual towns/municipalities can ban it (ala San Francisco) from sidewalks if they choose.

I spoke to the powers that be in Albany at the NY State Commissioner of Transportation's office about 2 weeks ago...they all tried Segways a while ago and loved it! They are finalizing the wording of the Legislation to pass on to the NY Senate.

(I Segway'd over to the Office of Senator Maltese, one of the sponsors of the bill today. His headquarters are 4 blocks from my office in glendale Queens, but he wasn't in)

I spoke to the powers that be at Segway (the lobbying guys) and they are on the ball with NY State.

If I can find a copy of the rough legislation I saw, I'll add a post here.

Don't bother with DMV...they know nothing yet.

As for the Troopers, I'm a Police Surgeon with the NY State Troopers and they just don't know anything about it. When it comes to police on any level, they just know what they know until someone tells them differently. It has to come down to them from the top. The ones to whom I've given demos love them & want to buy them, but they just don't know what to do legally. The Segway is TOTALLY DIFFERENT and doesn't fit into any existing laws.

Hope this calms you. I was very worried at first too.

Wayne

[clm]

I found this law server that is a much faster than megalaw

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c128/a80.html

This reference is to "Article 48-A", registration of Limited Use Vehicles. I would agree with SLI that present law doesn't comprehend the HT at all, BUT under present law comes the HT comes closest to being a "limited use class C motorcycle". It is interesting that this definition requires "Two wheels and a seat". Well you are "two wheels" but no chair! What to do? I have not found how electric scooters are specifically handled in New York.

Inside this Article is lots of talk about a commissioner. To wit:

" S 2270. Rules and regulations. The commissioner is hereby empowered to make such rules and regulations as he may deem necessary to carry out the provisions of this article, including procedures with respect to the certification of maximum performance speed of limited use vehicles."

It would be interesting to know more about this commissioner and his regulations :)

[LarryL]

Your out is right in your own post. The law already says Segway's are exempt from the law. The legal definition of a segway is option a. If you look in the law, you will find that this is a Segway. I just got it passed in my town on that very fact. I am getting a letter from the city attorney on Monday. Together, with the help of Segway, we proved that this is it. Read it, there is nothing else that it could be. If you don't know where to find that, I'll post it for you. When I get my letter from the attorney, I'll send it to you for backup.

"§ 125. Motor vehicles. Every vehicle operated or driven upon a public highway which is propelled by any power other than muscular power, except (a) electrically-driven mobility assistance devices operated or driven by a person with a disability ..."


Larry

[clm]

Larry,

S 125a says EDMA "operated or driven" by a disabled person.

This does not seem to get there for able bodied Seqway operators.

I also found this: http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/dmvfaqs.htm#MOPEDS

which is generally discouraging under existing NY laws...

If I were you I'd just do nothing and wait for the new Segway legislation to happen.

[SegwayBill]

Till next Wednesday or Thursday I am the only one who lives in Manhattan and owns a Segway. Like Frank my experience with the NYPD has been positive and friendly. All it will take is one careless operator and a little old lady.
I have been using mine on both the side walk and the street. When I have to go more then a block or two, I use the same part of the street that I use when I bicycle. The side walks are crowded and slow there are low awnings, dog walkers and people who don’t expect to be past by you.
In Central Park the paths are for pedestrians only. I received a ticket last year for riding my bicycle on a path. The park drive is the place where we are legal. Always carry ID with you if you are stopped and don’t have it, you will be taken to the police station and have a bad afternoon.
I hope we get some good legislation. For my part I set a good example by wearing a helmet, riding slowly on the side walks and have insurance. ($1017.00 a year)
If you come to NYC for the first time find a quiet neighbor hood to start.


Bill

[BenBethel]

Everything you quoted says "highway" and a highway isn't something that you'd ride a Segway on. The four different types of city streets are Local, Collector, Arterial and Major Arterial streets. They all have quite distinct definitions don't they? But I don't think they're anything like Highways.

www.benbethel.com

[lipinsky]

Local, Collector, Arterial and Major Arterial streets are not defined in New York State. A highway is not the highway as you think. It is the legal description of any road in NYS.

§ 118. Highway. The entire width between the boundary lines of every way publicly maintained when any part thereof is open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel.

Thanks for trying though.

[lipinsky]

Oh no, it has gotten worse!

I just got off of the phone with Tom Conroy (518-474-5282 option 4) of the NYS DMV Technical Assessments department. Segway, he said, "had given a demo here" and the DMV decided not to permit Segways to be registered in New York State. As you can not register a Segway YOU CAN NOT *LEGALLY* USE IT IN PUBLIC AREAS. You can't use motorized vehicles on sidewalks or bike paths and you can't use a motorized vehicle on the road unless it is registered (which it can't be).

I called "Judy" at Segway to discuss this issues. She is going to try to get someone to call me back to see what can be done.

When I have more information I will write to Ray P. Martinez, Commissioner, NYS Department of Motor Vehicles, 6 Empire State Plaza, Albany, New York 12228.

I am certainly looking for ideas from you folks -- yes many are using Segways in NY, but that does not make it legal. As a result, if you have an accident you are 100% at fault and it is possible that your insurance will not cover you. Not to mention the $100+ fine for operating an unregistered vehicle (which is points on your license and can increase your automotive insurance rates).

Grid

[SegwayLongIsland]

Hi Lipinski.

I think I mentioned earlier on this thread not to bother with the DMV. They don't know anything about it. It's not a motor vehicle!

I'm in contact with Segway and the New York State Dept. of Transportation and the Segway will be considered a "PEDESTRIAN" in New York State as in 34 other states.

Quotes from NY STATE SENATE BILL # S00579:

"§ 130. Pedestrian.
Any person afoot, on an electric personal assistive mobility device
or in a wheelchair."

Further,

"§ Section 1. The vehicle and traffic law is amended by adding a new section 114-d to read as follows:
114-d. Electric personal assistive mobility device. Every self-balancing, two non-tandem wheeled device designed to
transport one person by means of an electric propulsion system with an average output of not more than seven hundred fifty watts (one horsepower), and the maximum speed of which on a paved level surface, when propelled solely by its electric propulsion system while ridden by an operator weighing one hundred seventy pounds, is
less than twenty miles per hour. Such a device shall not be deemed to be a motorized wheelchair, motorized bicycle, motorized scooter, motorcycle, motorized skateboard, vehicle or motor vehicle."

DNV doesn't have the law yet since it hasn't been signed into law. When it is, Segway will not be a motor vehicle and therefore not subject to DMV rules, regulations or laws!!

Wayne

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by Segway Long Island


I'm in contact with Segway and the New York State Dept. of Transportation and the Segway will be considered a "PEDESTRIAN" in New York State as in 34 other states.


Wayne,
Not all 34 states consider Segway a 'pedestrian'. They all do agree that it is not a 'motor vehicle' and that it has the right to use the sidewalk, beyond that there is a considerable differing in the laws.
This results in confusion as to how a Segway is to be treated in situations where there is no available sidewalk; like a pedestrian or a vehicle? The best laws have accepted the fact that the Segway is a new, unique transportation device that can't be easily defined as either pedestrian or a motor vehicle, and allow for maximum flexibility.


Runnin' with the Big Dogs

[lipinsky]

I secured the services of an attorney in case I get (when I get) a ticket (pro bono for the potential publicity). Better be prepared and not need him, than need him and have to play catch up quickly.

He is interested in being trained on my Segway (next week -- I hope :-) and thinks that we have a good case. He said that the four judges in front of whom I may appear are reasonable and intelligent and that this is a good area to test this case. They don't just side with the police blindly or the V&T Laws if they don't make sense. While I hope that I don't get written up, part of me does as it seems to be sympathetic courts in which to test in New York.

After this I suspect that he will be the "expert" to whom you will want to go if you run into problems in New York.

Grid

[clm]

Or for future torts against Segway owners also ....

I wonder why do I think it is a negative for lawyers to gain interest in Segways?

Chris

[lipinsky]

quote:Originally posted by clm


I wonder why do I think it is a negative for lawyers to gain interest in Segways?



Right now unless Lawyers get involved in NYS (read legislators) you will never be able to use Segways legally in the Empire State.

That's what I am working toward!

[SegwayLongIsland]

LIPINSKI! What is the PROBLEM??!!

You don't even have a Segway yet and you're lining up lawyers to defend you (and the rest of us) in a test case for the State of New York? Get Real!

Are you looking for trouble?? If you are that bothered by all this, put in for a refund and buy a sailboat!

The rest of us are quietly convincing New Yorkers a few hundred at a time that the Segway works fine in and among pedestrians! Some of theose people also happen to be cops, judges, lawyers, and yes legislators.

Segway LLC has a plan for New York State & City, they're working on it as I write this and some of us are helping them change things gently from the TOP down, like with the State Senate & the NYS DOT. A test case starts at the BOTTOM!!! BAD PUBLICITY!!!!!

Take a break, get your Segway, start gliding, and just take it one day at a time! It will all work out. I'm not saying sit on your hands and do nothing; stay on top of what's happening. Talk to the people at Segway; share thoughts and ideas on this board. We'll get more accomplished working together with a plan than going off half cocked! Don't ruin it for the rest of us!!

[lipinsky]

Wayne relax. I just wanted to get ready IN CASE a ticket comes my way. That's all. The guy is a friend of mine (drives the ambulance for me on Tuesday nights) so this request is not out of left field. He know about the Segway since I am using it for Ambulance fundraising. The people to whom I spoke from Segway are completely misinformed about NYS. This weekend the four I spoke with thought you could use them on the roads. I am not doing anything publicly but I'm not going to accept a moving violation. I hope my experience is like yours -- but if it is not, and I have reason to believe that it will not be -- I want to be ready.

[bicycledriver]

quote:Originally posted by JohnM

Not all 34 states consider Segway a 'pedestrian'. They all do agree that it is not a 'motor vehicle' and that it has the right to use the sidewalk, beyond that there is a considerable differing in the laws.
This results in confusion as to how a Segway is to be treated in situations where there is no available sidewalk; like a pedestrian or a vehicle? The best laws have accepted the fact that the Segway is a new, unique transportation device that can't be easily defined as either pedestrian or a motor vehicle, and allow for maximum flexibility.


The best laws for bicycles treat their operators as drivers of vehicles; not motor vehicles, but not pedestrians either. The public's confusion between existing general laws for vehicles and special restrictions for motor vehicles (license and registration required, prohibited from sidewalks) is responsible for bad policies and bad public attitudes regarding operation of lightweight vehicles on streets. Competent cyclists work endlessly to correct this confusion. One would hope that society could learn from bicycling before making mistakes with inappropriate EPAMD regulation.

Promotion of the idea that the Segway is not dangerous enough to be regulated as a *motor* vehicle is a reasonable way to get its use allowed on some or most sidewalks, and without registration. But promotion of the idea that the Segway is not a *vehicle* has exacerbated mass confusion about safe piloting of wheeled conveyances at faster than pedestrian speeds, and about the rights of the public to travel by wheeled conveyances that are not cars or trucks.

Steve Goodridge
http://humantransport.org/bicycledriving/