i2 Enhancements

[asifjahmed]

I know that many people have given their take on the i2 and what they would add/change about it.

Here is my list. Please feel free to agree or disagree, add to this list, or even improve on items in my list.

Faster RBM speed - this one is pretty self-explanatory. Either the limit should be increased, or it should be configurable via the InfoKey.

Power Assist Mode - It would be nice if one could enable power assist mode and then push/pull the segway, with power applied to the motors based on the pushing/pulling. Steering could be enabled, but desensitized.

LSF sensitivity - the LeanSteer Frame should ignore slight movements while at a standstill or riding very slowly. However, when you want to turn in place, turning the LSF more than an inch or two would have full-sensitivity and response. As a sidenote, it would be very cool if the pivot on the LSF was powered, thus electronically returning to center smoothly, and automatically pointing upwards while perpendicular to a slope.

Alarm - The alarm is a very nice feature on the i2. However, I feel that the siren should be louder so that one can hear it from furthur away.

Parking Stand - The lack hereof is the only complaint. I understand that INC ran into some issues, but I think they should have at least distributed makeshift/cheap kickstands as an interim solution.

Regenerative Braking - Again, a very nice feature. However, I feel that it should automatically be disabled while going downhill with full charge, this eliminating the annoying reduced-performance mode.

Stick shake - It would be nice if one had the ability to disable stickshake while going in reverse (applies to gen:1 too).

As a disclaimer, I would like to say that despite these minor details, I LOVE MY i2!! It is revolutionary when compared to the first generation machines.

Best Regards

[hellphish]

I know that many people have given their take on the i2 and what they would add/change about it.

Here is my list. Please feel free to agree or disagree, add to this list, or even improve on items in my list.

Faster RBM speed - this one is pretty self-explanatory. Either the limit should be increased, or it should be configurable via the InfoKey. -Sounds good to me

Power Assist Mode - It would be nice if one could enable power assist mode and then push/pull the segway, with power applied to the motors based on the pushing/pulling. Steering could be enabled, but desensitized. --How would the segway know the difference between you pulling at it to stop it and an obstacle that it needs to go over? They would both register as torque going the opposite direction, and thus (in your system) would cause the wheels to change direction.

LSF sensitivity - the LeanSteer Frame should ignore slight movements while at a standstill or riding very slowly. However, when you want to turn in place, turning the LSF more than an inch or two would have full-sensitivity and response. As a sidenote, it would be very cool if the pivot on the LSF was powered, thus electronically returning to center smoothly, and automatically pointing upwards while perpendicular to a slope. --An automatic leansteer would be very cool indeed. Not sure why you'd want to decrease sensitivity at low speeds. I think that would take away from the sensation of "wearing" the i2.

Alarm - The alarm is a very nice feature on the i2. However, I feel that the siren should be louder so that one can hear it from furthur away. --Definitely agree.

Regenerative Braking - Again, a very nice feature. However, I feel that it should automatically be disabled while going downhill with full charge, this eliminating the annoying reduced-performance mode. --The batteries get charged when braking because there is nowhere else for that energy to go. If you wanted to convert it to heat you would be looking at a very hot segway.

Stick shake - It would be nice if one had the ability to disable stickshake while going in reverse (applies to gen:1 too). --I would like this as well, but it isn't too important to me. Stickshake never occurs before I expect it to, and I don't notice it much anymore.


I'll add my own:

Infokey - The infokey should be rechargeable, either coming with its own charger or docking to the Segway somehow while the Segway itself charges. After being gifted with rechargable batteries, the Infokey should be able to vibrate in conjunction with stickshake, whenever it occurs. It should also vibrate and make a racket if alarm mode goes off. Of course the infokey could stay on longer and have a longer range if endowed with a rechargable battery.

[asifjahmed]

I'll add my own:

Infokey - The infokey should be rechargeable, either coming with its own charger or docking to the Segway somehow while the Segway itself charges. After being gifted with rechargable batteries, the Infokey should be able to vibrate in conjunction with stickshake, whenever it occurs. It should also vibrate and make a racket if alarm mode goes off. Of course the infokey could stay on longer and have a longer range if endowed with a rechargable battery.

^ Indeed a very good idea! Never thought of that one.

As for the power assist, I'm sure the guys at INC could figure out how to detect the difference between stopping and moving. Perhaps there could be a bit of play before the power is applied to the wheels?

As for the decrease in LSF sensitivity while stopped, this would prevent the unit from tracking to the side slowly while the LSF is not being held.

And finally, the gen1 machines didn't have the reduced-performance issue going downhill (at least i don't believe it did), so however they managed that, they could have done the same for gen 2.

[quade]

Additional thoughts and things to think about for the next model;

Metric or Imperial - Anything with the Segway logo on it should conform to the rest of the device. Currently the Handlebar Bag bag does not. To me this is almost inconceivable.

Comfort Mat - Why is this an option rather than just being included as standard? With the range the i2 has, it's just cruel to expect people to use the standard mats and they're just going to end up buying the comfort mats anyway.

Locking - I do not in any way, shape or form feel comfortable leaving my Segway locked outside to a normal bikerack. Currently there are two options; The Segway lock or a third party lock. The Segway locking mechanism is almost a joke. Third party locks enable the base to easily be separated from the LSF with a simple Allen wrench.

One Platform, Multiple Uses - It makes no sense to me why an i2 can't be easily user converted into an x2 and vice versa simply by swapping tires, fenders and making a setting change on the InfoKey. With the new California EPAMD laws going into effect, buyers have to make a -very- tough choice; commuter capable machine or a machine that is strictly off road. This is completely unacceptable.

Transmission Disengage - On the rare occasion that the device needs to be moved while not under power (or when out of power altogether), there should be some way to disengage the transmission from the wheels. This -should- require the removal of a bolt, some sort of lever movement and the reinstallation of the same bolt. For safety purposes, the unit should sense when the wheels are disengaged, alert the user via a tone and InfoKey and shut down.

LSF Vertical Alignment - The current system makes this a rather hit or miss affair. I line it up, but when tightening it will shift a bit, then try again and again . . . it's just a pain.

LSF Tool-less Release - See note above. Additionally, the release itself is both cumbersome and negates the use of the Segway Lock. The two are mutually exclusive devices.

[bystander]

I know that many people have given their take on the i2 and what they would add/change about it.

Here is my list. Please feel free to agree or disagree, add to this list, or even improve on items in my list.

Faster RBM speed - this one is pretty self-explanatory. Either the limit should be increased, or it should be configurable via the InfoKey.


I haven't tried this, but I think the existing limitations of RBM can be overcome by placing a "thumper" (obscure "Dune" reference) on one of the rider detect switches. A "deadman" switch on the handlebar ensures that the thumping stops when/if the handlebar is released, keeping the overall design safe.

Power Assist Mode - It would be nice if one could enable power assist mode and then push/pull the Seaway, with power applied to the motors based on the pushing/pulling. Steering could be enabled, but desensitized.

This topic has been discussed heavily in past threads. Discussing it hasn't really helped do anything about the situation.


LSF sensitivity - the LeanSteer Frame should ignore slight movements while at a standstill or riding very slowly. However, when you want to turn in place, turning the LSF more than an inch or two would have full-sensitivity and response. As a sidenote, it would be very cool if the pivot on the LSF was powered, thus electronically returning to center smoothly, and automatically pointing upwards while perpendicular to a slope.

Don't know if you noticed, but the lean steering is less sensitive for a few moments when you first mount to let the rider "get his/her bearings".

Also, the concept if motorizing the pivot is covered by a patent by Segway/DEKA, so it might come up in a future product. I suspect it was not included on the i2 for cost reasons. Possibly it would have required the redesign of the existing i2 controller boards (which are pretty much the same as the gen1 boards.) A fresh controller design might more easily accommodate a powered pivot.

Personally, I'd like to see a sensor on the handlebars that would detect "twist" in the yaw axis. That is, pulling back on the left handle grip and pushing forward on the right handle grip to turn left. The handle wouldn't move, just the force applied would be measured. The sensor would be like the kind used in an electronic scale.

Standing still, LSF angle would be ignored and the "twist" would control the turn rate. When moving, both "twist" and LSF angle would be combined to determine the turn rate. At low speeds "twist" would be the primary contributor, and at highest speed the "twist" would mostly be ignored, and the LSF angle would be the dominant contribution to the turn rate.

Alarm - The alarm is a very nice feature on the i2. However, I feel that the siren should be louder so that one can hear it from further away.

Not sure if you were aware, but the alarm transducer happens to be the motor windings themselves. There is no separate "speaker" for the alarm. Doing without a separate speaker simplifies the design and reduces cost.

With a "Segway tone generator", a magnetic pickup outside the chassis near the motors, and an external audio amplifier, the alarm can be made louder. But a separate power source and electronics are needed.


Parking Stand - The lack hereof is the only complaint. I understand that INC ran into some issues, but I think they should have at least distributed makeshift/cheap kickstands as an interim solution.
Yes, they could have easily sent a small, suitably sized foam block inside the packaging for very little cost.


Regenerative Braking - Again, a very nice feature. However, I feel that it should automatically be disabled while going downhill with full charge, this eliminating the annoying reduced-performance mode.

Unfortunately losing the regen charging also loses the anti-faceplant ability. To allow full performance when running downhill on a full charge, a bank of resistors would have to be wired into the circuit. The resistors would have to be capable of dissipating hundred of watts, making them a large, cumbersome addition to an otherwise elegant design.

Might be able to use the LSF as a heatsink, but that would loose some of the advantage of it being "wireless".

Stick shake - It would be nice if one had the ability to disable stickshake while going in reverse (applies to gen:1 too).

This is another safety feature, the annoyance of reverse stick shake is supposed to remind users that it's better to turn around and see where your going instead of backing over an obstacle and falling over.

But it would be nice if you could take a safety course, then have your reverse stick shake limit raised by having your firmware reprogrammed. The amount of the raising of the limit would depend on how well you did on the final!

As a disclaimer, I would like to say that despite these minor details, I LOVE MY i2!! It is revolutionary when compared to the first generation machines.

Best Regards
As a disclaimer, I have ridden an i2 a couple of times, but don't own one.

Also I noticed you haven't discussed the way the left/right rider detect switches interact with the steering. Some users find this troublesome. But it is another safety feature.

[bystander]

And finally, the gen1 machines didn't have the reduced-performance issue going downhill (at least I don't believe it did), so however they managed that, they could have done the same for gen 2.

Gen1s had less evolved software that probably overcharged the batteries during "fully-charged downhill" situations. Some gen1 users have indicated a difference with the latest firmware.

The side effect of escaping the reduced performance mode on downhills is reduced battery cycle life. Not something anybody really wants, is it?

Also gen2s are slightly heavier. Depending on rider weight, from about 6 to 8 percent. Since the "limited performance" mode kicks in somewhere between 360 and 1000 watts, you can't go down too steep a hill before encountering it. And heavier objects will hit the limit before lighter ones.

[hellphish]

I haven't tried this, but I think the existing limitations of RBM can be overcome by placing a "thumper" (obscure "Dune" reference) on one of the rider detect switches. A "deadman" switch on the handlebar ensures that the thumping stops when/if the handlebar is released, keeping the overall design safe.

The only issue with this idea is that full balance mode is far more dangerous than RBM, and this would have you switching between them at regular intervals. Yes, even a light tap of the sensors straightens out the segway too abruptly to be safe. I once tried climbing a curb with a 12 pack of DP sitting on my platform. BIG MISTAKE! The segway hopped up way too fast, and was very quick to try to get control of the situation. It knocked into my leg hard enough to leave a bump and was strong enough to get out of my grip. Perhaps if you had some sort of button to press to manually actuate the thumper?

[bystander]

I'll add my own:

Infokey - The infokey should be rechargeable, either coming with its own charger or docking to the Segway somehow while the Segway itself charges. After being gifted with rechargeable batteries, the Infokey should be able to vibrate in conjunction with stickshake, whenever it occurs. It should also vibrate and make a racket if alarm mode goes off. Of course the infokey could stay on longer and have a longer range if endowed with a rechargeable battery.

I agree on the desirability of this feature, but there will be a significant trade-off in battery life if using the same form factor.

If you don't mind an infokey roughly twice the existing volume and weight (for the same battery life), it can be done. Probably wouldn't be practical for a watch anymore, though. Would still be practical as belt, pocket, or purse item.

If one was "handy", one could sense the line that controls the backlight and use that signal to power a pager vibrator motor. I would use a separate AAA battery for the pager motor, in order to avoid disrupting the basic Infokey operation if the pager motor runs the battery down.

Or maybe one could use their second Infokey as a trigger control device for an externally boosted alarm device? Keep in mind though, the range of the Infokey is as little as 10 - 30 feet. Unless you alarm device (such as a car remote) was a radio link to a longer range alarm system.

[bystander]

The only issue with this idea is that full balance mode is far more dangerous than RBM, and this would have you switching between them at regular intervals. Yes, even a light tap of the sensors straightens out the segway too abruptly to be safe. I once tried climbing a curb with a 12 pack of DP sitting on my platform. BIG MISTAKE! The segway hopped up way too fast, and was very quick to try to get control of the situation. It knocked into my leg hard enough to leave a bump and was strong enough to get out of my grip. Perhaps if you had some sort of button to press to manually actuate the thumper?Yes, by "deadman" switch, I meant that a normally opened switch would be closed by the operator to keep the thumper going. When released, the thumper would stop and the PTs normal safety mechanisms would bring the PT to a stop.

The thumper would briefly "strike" once every two to four seconds. One could also rig up something that would strike once or twice every wheel revolution.

If you really wanted to go hi-tech, you could locate a small (about 1/2" x 1/4") single element LCD and put in inside the powerbase where one of the rider detect optical interlocks is. A relatively low power signal on the LCD would activate the "detect". This way the mechanical resistance of the rider detect "buttons" on the platform don't need to be overcome, making for a much lower power device.

If regularly using the PT for transport of cargo while walking alongside, I would really try to avoid ever letting the cargo rest on the rider detects. I would put shims under the mat to keep them disengaged, or maybe make a little platform that clears the mat.

[bentbiker]

Except as noted, I generally agree with all that Asif and Hellfish have said. My one addition is at the end.

I'll add my own:

I know that many people have given their take on the i2 and what they would add/change about it.

Here is my list. Please feel free to agree or disagree, add to this list, or even improve on items in my list.

LSF sensitivity - the LeanSteer Frame should ignore slight movements while at a standstill or riding very slowly. However, when you want to turn in place, turning the LSF more than an inch or two would have full-sensitivity and response. As a sidenote, it would be very cool if the pivot on the LSF was powered, thus electronically returning to center smoothly, and automatically pointing upwards while perpendicular to a slope. --An automatic leansteer would be very cool indeed. Not sure why you'd want to decrease sensitivity at low speeds. I think that would take away from the sensation of "wearing" the i2. Wouldn't a "powered" LSF use a lot of energy, lessening range and adding weight? I also can't see it being fast enough to react to a driveway curb cuts.

Regenerative Braking - Again, a very nice feature. However, I feel that it should automatically be disabled while going downhill with full charge, this eliminating the annoying reduced-performance mode. --The batteries get charged when braking because there is nowhere else for that energy to go. If you wanted to convert it to heat you would be looking at a very hot segway. I hate it when physics gets in the way of a good idea.;)

Stick shake - It would be nice if one had the ability to disable stickshake while going in reverse (applies to gen:1 too). --I would like this as well, but it isn't too important to me. Stickshake never occurs before I expect it to, and I don't notice it much anymore. I don't think I've ever encountered stickshake in reverse; what am I doing wrong?


Infokey - The infokey should be rechargeable, either coming with its own charger or docking to the Segway somehow while the Segway itself charges. After being gifted with rechargable batteries, the Infokey should be able to vibrate in conjunction with stickshake, whenever it occurs. It should also vibrate and make a racket if alarm mode goes off. Of course the infokey could stay on longer and have a longer range if endowed with a rechargable battery. I don't want any more rechargeable devices in my life; it's nearly a full time job as it is (cell, BT headset, iPod, i2, NB computer, Dirt Devil, shaver, trimmer, PSP, headlight for i2, GPS, . . .). Since I wear the InfoKey on my wrist, the option of automatically charging the InfoKey as the i2 charges is not an attractive option, and, besides, that makes the unit more easily stolen while in my garage, since the InfoKey would be with it.

I'll reiterate my biggest peeve -- tires should be easily removable, replaceable, and serviceable. I don't want to lay my i2 down to check pressure. I don't want to buy a tire and wheel assembly just because the tire is worn out. If INC feels the wheel is not robust enough to stand up to a tire change, get a new wheel; if it is robust enough (and I feel it is), sell the tires (and provide a more aggressive tread alternative as an option/accessory). Why is INC forfeiting all replacement sales to 3rd party suppliers? Surely they can't expect the majority of users to pay an extra $200 every time they change tires.

[asifjahmed]

For the powered pivot, my thought was that it would only function when standing still on a slope, thus circumventing the need to hold the handlebar at an angle to stand still on a slope.

As for stickshake in reverse, try going a little faster...

And I also agree with your assessment of the wheels/tires...

Best Regards

Except as noted, I generally agree with all that Asif and Hellfish have said.



I'll reiterate my biggest peeve -- tires should be easily removable, replaceable, and serviceable. I don't want to lay my i2 down to check pressure. I don't want to buy a tire and wheel assembly just because the tire is worn out. If INC feels the wheel is not robust enough to stand up to a tire change, get a new wheel; if it is robust enough (and I feel it is), sell the tires (and provide a more aggressive tread alternative as an option/accessory). Why is INC forfeiting all replacement sales to 3rd party suppliers? Surely they can't expect the majority of users to pay an extra $200 every time they change tires.

[bystander]

Wouldn't a "powered" LSF use a lot of energy, lessening range and adding weight? I also can't see it being fast enough to react to a driveway curb cuts.

Yes it would use energy. But it might also be able to regen a bit too. The "thing" used for this is called a "Harmonic Drive", in case you want to search around for it.

I don't think I've ever encountered stickshake in reverse; what am I doing wrong?
If you only back-up slowly, you'll never notice it. If you try to "push the speed limiter" backwards, you'll get stick-shake very quickly. Don't bother trying this for yourself unless you feel safe doing it.

I don't want any more rechargeable devices in my life; it's nearly a full time job as it is (cell, BT headset, iPod, i2, NB computer, Dirt Devil, shaver, trimmer, PSP, headlight for i2, GPS, . . .). Since I wear the InfoKey on my wrist, the option of automatically charging the InfoKey as the i2 charges is not an attractive option, and, besides, that makes the unit more easily stolen while in my garage, since the InfoKey would be with it.

I hear that. Until there is efficient and effective means of charging inductively (non contact), I think I'll wait until seriously asking for this as a feature.

I'll reiterate my biggest peeve -- tires should be easily removable, replaceable, and serviceable. I don't want to lay my i2 down to check pressure. I don't want to buy a tire and wheel assembly just because the tire is worn out. If INC feels the wheel is not robust enough to stand up to a tire change, get a new wheel; if it is robust enough (and I feel it is), sell the tires (and provide a more aggressive tread alternative as an option/accessory). Why is INC forfeiting all replacement sales to 3rd party suppliers? Surely they can't expect the majority of users to pay an extra $200 every time they change tires.
I think it's because there still aren't enough of us. When sales get into the multi-millions of units, this will be a much more important design factor.

[bentbiker]

Asif,
For the powered pivot, my thought was that it would only function when standing still on a slope, thus circumventing the need to hold the handlebar at an angle to stand still on a slope. Thank you for the clarification -- it would be nice to not have to fight the thing always trying to go downhill, but I wouldn't want to pay the price in hardware cost, weight, and range-loss.

As for stickshake in reverse, try going a little faster... That's what . . . (oh, that's a different subject). I feel as if everything else in my life has been going backward faster and faster, I think I'll skip doing so on the i2. This will be a thrill I'll leave to you 22 year olds.:rolleyes:

And I also agree with your assessment of the wheels/tires...

Best Regards
---------------------------------------------

[bentbiker]

Yes it would use energy. But it might also be able to regen a bit too. The "thing" used for this is called a "Harmonic Drive", in case you want to search around for it.


This sounds like a euphemism dreamed up by my former employer for "Work harder, and don't rock the boat." Seriously, do you have a link? I've found the company by that name, the inventor of the concept, etc, but not what I think you are referring to.

BTW, have you thought about the 8/5 ride in Shady Canyon/OC?

[asifjahmed]

Seriously, do you have a link? I've found the company by that name, the inventor of the concept, etc, but not what I think you are referring to.

http://www.powertransmission.com/issues/0706/harmonic.htm

[bystander]

http://www.powertransmission.com/issues/0706/harmonic.htm

That link seems to have issues for me, but that is what I'm talking about. Here's a google cache link to the same spot:

Link (http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:Xi6_8H5ApjwJ:www.powertransmission. com/issues/0706/harmonic.htm+harmonic+site:powertransmission.com&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us)

This sounds like a euphemism dreamed up by my former employer for "Work harder, and don't rock the boat." Seriously, do you have a link? I've found the company by that name, the inventor of the concept, etc, but not what I think you are referring to.

Here's an old post of mine where I speculate and link to the company I found back then:

http://forums.segwaychat.com/showpost.php?p=119473&postcount=60

And here's a list of DEKA patents (http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=12920), check out 20050121866. Search for the word "Harmonic" in the discussion of figures 9A & 9B.


BTW, have you thought about the 8/5 ride in Shady Canyon/OC?

Yes, sounds nice but... It's kind of out-of-the-way for me, and I don't think anyone this side of town (West end of SFV) is planning to carpool.

[asifjahmed]

Thanks to everyone for this list of improvements/enhancements.

Hopefully someone at INC will take a look at this thread and like some of the ideas.

If only Segway offered an SDK...

Well, actually i'd like a parking stand, first LOL.

Best Regards