Lithium-ion Segway allowed on American Airlines...

[Scotty]

Segway® Human Transporter Device
Batteries on the Segway® Human Transporter are lithium, similar to a laptop battery, and do not require removal or any disconnection of the power source. If this device is used as a mobility device, it may be stowed in the cabin on a first-come basis. Customers may ride their Segway to the aircraft door and guide it into the closet. It can climb stairs.


I found this on AA site. I knew if I took it at face value probably have problem if I took my Segway to the AA terminal. After being on the phone for 45 minutes I finally got the answer. No LIONS are not allowed on planes. Apparanly this is 180 degrees from what legal counsel sets out. Legal trumps Website. I sure was hoping this was true.

I did post a complaint on AA site suggesting they reevaluate the Segway LION battery restrictions. We shall see what happens.

[macgeek]

There paperwork on Segway's are like 3 years old. Li-on's were not even out yet when they wrote up that paperwork. they are WAY behind the times.
I know the folks at Draft have been TRYING to get them to update it.

Jonathan

[quade]

It's not an American Airlines issue; it's an FAA and HAZMAT issue.

If you complain to AA, you're talking to the wrong people. Their hands are tied.

[apollo]

Does the Lithium-Sulfate, and not Li-Ion chemistry of the Segway batteries not make a difference? I thought all the segway batteries are made with a non-reactive chemistry (http://www.valence.com/technology/safety_video.html#) (to oxygen, air, or water) patented by the Valence company, branded "Saphion".
If this is still true, then I guess the regulators are either ignorant (like the majority of the public on all things segway), over cautious, or they just haven't gotten around to looking at the Segway issue since the Lithium-Sulfate batteries came out.

[quade]

. . . or they just haven't gotten around to looking at the Segway issue since the Lithium-Sulfate batteries came out.

They have no interest in an exception for a specific product and are not going to look at any one item as specific as a Segway unless that one product poses a specific threat. That's not the ways laws are usually passed anyway. They look at classes of products. They're also on a cycle of review when it comes to laws. There's simply no way to review every law, every time a manufacturer makes some technological "break through" such as the Saphion. Further, once they do review a class of products, it takes -quite- awhile for them to test them and ensure that they are, in fact, safe. They aren't just going to take the manufacturer's word for it!

[Tarkus]

Segway® Human Transporter Device
Batteries on the Segway® Human Transporter are lithium, similar to a laptop battery, and do not require removal or any disconnection of the power source. If this device is used as a mobility device, it may be stowed in the cabin on a first-come basis. Customers may ride their Segway to the aircraft door and guide it into the closet. It can climb stairs.


I found this on AA site. I knew if I took it at face value probably have problem if I took my Segway to the AA terminal. After being on the phone for 45 minutes I finally got the answer. No LIONS are not allowed on planes. Apparanly this is 180 degrees from what legal counsel sets out. Legal trumps Website. I sure was hoping this was true.

I did post a complaint on AA site suggesting they reevaluate the Segway LION battery restrictions. We shall see what happens.

Heres the problem with web pages I'll call "Stuck in Cyberspace".

If you were to Google American Airlines Segway you would get this page:

http://www.aa.com/content/agency/Travel_Experience/Acceptance/Accept_pax_wheelchairs.jhtml#Segway®%20Human%20Tra nsporter%20Device

Problem is that's a "dead" page that was pulled long ago but still can be accessed by Google etal.


If you were to enter the Americanairlines.com site and looked you will find this, the currant page:

http://www.aa.com/aa/i18nForward.do?p=/travelInformation/specialAssistance/wheelchairsAndDevices.jsp

No mention of Segways.



It's like when the Segway was first introduced and Brookstone was the distribution arm. If you Google brookstone segway I167 you get a "Dead" page from INC's site. Notice the press release date , Oct. 2003.

http://www.segway.com/aboutus/press_releases/pr_102903.html

Obviously thats also a "stuck" page.

That is why you must check with the carriers active site. Then call to confirm.

As far as when the Lions will be approved, there are those that are working with the authorities to get a definitive answer.

As stated in above posts it's not the airlines call on this it's FAA/HAZMAT.

Hope this helps with the contridictory web and customer service issue.

Be Big,
Alan

[bentbiker]

Heres the problem with web pages I'll call "Stuck in Cyberspace".

Superb explanation. I finally understand why so many people keep reporting conflicting info on this stuff. AA and INC should block access from outside their own network (assuming they want to see the old versions) to those old pages instead of merely removing links to them from their current site.

Rep points for digging up the info.

[Tarkus]

Superb explanation. I finally understand why so many people keep reporting conflicting info on this stuff. AA and INC should block access from outside their own network (assuming they want to see the old versions) to those old pages instead of merely removing links to them from their current site.

Rep points for digging up the info.

Thanks, I had some help...

It's not just a few sites, it's more the rule than the exception. I spoke to a friend thats a web designer late tonight and he told me that most "webmasters" fight just to keep a site up to date much less expunge "dead" pages.

Be Big,
Alan

[Scotty]

I got a call from AA about my complaint. She didn't know anything about Segways and LION until my complaint. She did some reseach and said it was the FAA's rule. I told her I had found that out, after my complaint, from this post. We had a nice conversation. She told me the Segway issue had come up at a previous meeting. And the information I gave her would be passed along at future meetings.

Thanks for all the great information on this.

Maybe Segway will adopt the Ultra-Capacitor storage to power the Segway eliminating the the whole issue if the LION.

[Tarkus]

Just so there is no confusion, American Airlines happily accepts Segways as mobility aids. Just no Lions.

I have flown AA a couple of times (I prefer Southwest) and never had an access issue. Their gate personnel knew both of the Segway and the difference in battery types.

As far as getting your HT into the closet, I have never been able to do that even after hundreds of flights. Mine flies with the strollers !
But I do know of a few that have had that honor.

Speaking of Southwest, just want to give a big thanks to their Jacksonville Florida crew. They always take exceptional care of my other "legs". I have found SW to be extremely aware of the Segway and how to handle one.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i118/segforlegs/SW.jpg
Gordon is always ready by the time I arrive at the gate.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i118/segforlegs/SW1.jpg
In no time they have the Segway gate checked, tagged and ready to go.


Not long ago I flew AA then the next week back on SW. When I got to the gate the SW agent said she saw me "cheating" on them when I was heading for the American flight !

Be Big,
Alan

[PTB]

Hi Guys,

Just flew my i2 commuter package from Sydney, Australia to Cairns, Australia with Virgin Blue and Jetstar Airlines. Neither had seen (or heard of) the Segway but both carried it for free as a disability aid FOC with the baggage.:)

[DarthSegVator]

Hi Guys,

Just flew my i2 commuter package from Sydney, Australia to Cairns, Australia with Virgin Blue and Jetstar Airlines. Neither had seen (or heard of) the Segway but both carried it for free as a disability aid FOC with the baggage.:)

PTB,

Not sure what the regulations are in Australia, but the US currently does not allow Li-Ions batteries aboard commercial flights. This is being worked on by the great folks at DRAFT. Hopefully a regulation change is forthcoming.

In the meantime, a work of caution to US Segway owners. Do not attempt to bring a Li-Ion equipped Segway on a commercial flight. Not only will you be in violation of Federal law, but could ruin it for the rest of the Segway community, especially those that use the Segway as their primary mobility device.

If people try to "cheat" the rules, the FAA and the airlines will simply ban them altogether. This would be a huge step backwards and hurt the disabled community the most. Please respect the rules and help work toward a solution.

Again, only NiMh batteries are currently allowed on commercial flights. No Li-Ions under any circumstances.

[polo_pro]

The dept of the Australian government that regulates airlines and flight in general is Civil Aviation Safety Authority. For the most part, they follow the lead of the FAA and of course, the IATA.

Poking around a bit on their site, I found a page that addresses in plain english both dangerous goods and mobility devices. http://www.casa.gov.au/dg/luggage/dgtable.htm

As a tangent, I'll point out that CASA can be as draconian (and behind the times) as the FAA. For any pilots reading this I'd like to point out an incredible air tour called Goana Tours out of Brisbane. For over ten years they let private pilots borrow a 172 from their fleet and together they flew all around the continent. Truly a spectacular tour for folks with their private pilots license! All inclusive and lots of fun in the afternoons while you toured by foot/car wherever you landed that morning!!

Sadly, about a year and a half ago, they closed due to new rules, regulations and outrageous bureaucracy involved with foreign pilots flying in Australia. Come on...what's a 172 going to be able to do flying around the middle of the outback! Sheesh....

ps - They'd been growing every year and quite profitable. This wasn't a matter of them being on the edge and this being the final straw that did them in. Their government in a knee jerk reaction to 9/11 failed them and ruined their livelihood.

[jehemer]

What is involved in switching battery types? If I'm going on vacation can I just switch out the battery types on my i180?

[hellphish]

What is involved in switching battery types? If I'm going on vacation can I just switch out the battery types on my i180?

Yes. Four screws per battery. Saphions and NiMH batteries use differently sized screws, with Saphion screws being the longer ones.

[DarthSegVator]

What is involved in switching battery types? If I'm going on vacation can I just switch out the battery types on my i180?

As I understand it, Gen 1 machines need to have the updated software to allow Li-Ion batteries to be used. Once updated, you can go back and forth between Li-Ion and NiMh.

I think it is V14.2 software but not positive about this. I do know that when you disconnect the CS cables and reconnect, if you get a multi-tone set of beeps, I believe this indicates the updated (notice I didn't say upgraded) software.

Others feel free to chime in if I got something wrong here.

[wwhopper]

They and the XT's had the version 14.0 which ran the Li Ion battery - the ones you have to make sure that are upgraded are the I-167 and I-170's.

Software to run the Li Ion battery was offered at all of the 2005 SegwayfesTs so folks could use the Li Ion technology.

If you travel by passenger aircraft and take your seg along, it is wise to have a couple of sets of batteries. NiMH for travel - and Li Ion for at home use.

When you buy a set of new Li Ion batteries from a dealer, they should include a set of the screws and a new longer allen wrench for installing them, as the Li Ion battery is deeper than the old NiMH. So if be aware your clearance when going over objects on the ground will change, as the Li Ion hangs down further than the NiMH did.

If you have a HAZ MAT certified dealer, they can ship batteries for you, you will then have to find a HAZ MAT shipper to ship them back home. At Segway of Annapolis we often ship batteries for customers.

I am sure there are others who may have more info on batteries.

[hellphish]

What is involved in switching battery types? If I'm going on vacation can I just switch out the battery types on my i180?

Yep, 180s came with li-ion ability stock.

[bystander]

What is involved in switching battery types? If I'm going on vacation can I just switch out the battery types on my i180?Here's the instruction manual for replacing batteries from the Segway, Inc. website:

http://www.segway.com/downloads/pdfs/CIP_batteries_05.pdf