Korean "Segway"

[JIO]

Sorry if this is a repost...

http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/23/kaist-shows-off-hubo-way-segway-derivative/

[Zorba9]

.... there. First Segway knockoff I've seen that mimmics the real thing. Can they duplicate some of the redundant systems for safety? These guys could do 20 mph if they wanted them to. At 1/2 the price they would sell like crazy!


KOG

[SegwayDan]

To me, the guy in those photos looks stiff--afraid he's gonna dump it if he's not careful. This thing would really have to prove itself out on the street with comparable power, range, safety, reliability, sturdiness, etc., AND not be some sort of patent infringement. And, dammit, if they somehow got beyond all those hurdles and did 20mph they'd be restricted OFF of sidewalks, and we'd most likely be lumped into that sad category.

Price isn't what's keeping the Segway from selling better. There are so many grown-up toys which cost more. It's perception--the still strange image of people up on them, and this silly "geeky" idea being pushed around.

So many people *love* the Segway--a much larger number than those jeering it. The sticker shock still scares lots of them off, but more and more come back mentally and are starting to do the math and realizing that it isn't such a bad price for what they'd get.

These fools can jeer me all they want. We Segway owners know what we have under our feet. We just have to hang in there, and much larger numbers will follow once they get tired of smelling their own anal fumes.

[KSagal]

These comments about the 20mph are confusing me. I read 20kph which is the same max speed of a segway.

Hey, I love my segways, but I do not have an illusions about them. They are technologicaly advanced, but they are not magic. Others have made one-offs and have been relatively successful. WHere they eventually fail are on dependablility or the machine's ability to operate outside of it's design envelope without catastrophic results.

That is where Segways seem to be years ahead of eveyone. They are very good at dotting ALL the i's and crossing ALL the t's. It is the lack of surprises when using segways that is really their strong point.

I do not doubt that any large consern, if effort, time, money and engineers are put on the project, can produce something similar. Once they have it, they get to be where segway was in 2001, with a working unit that needs to be thoroughtly tested and tweeked.

I have said right along that segways are not unique. They are first. There is a big difference. Anything that is first will eventually have to deal with what ever is second...

[SegwayDan]

Another thing about this gadget is its steering system. It steers by leaning which seems to be some weight sensing system. This was my initial issue with the idea of such on the Segway before I learned of how Segway actually did it. If it's a weight shifting interface for steering, the rider would be all over the place if he merely wanted to shift his feet around on the platform. It's an interesting experiment, and it looks like they had a lot of fun getting it to this stage, but, as you say, they've still got a looooooong way to go if they have any commercial aspirations.

[Sal]

... and all newcomers will be playing catchup...

Dynamic Stabilization, leansteer, the nuances of redundant systems, and finally: build quality and integration: all of these have been mastered by INC.

I truly believe that newer players in this field - unless they have something truly novel to offer - will be the also-ran's especially when their weaknesses are born out through everyday use.

No worries here, though competition would make for quicker innovation (for INC)

Segway has a track record which is a high mountain to climb in the way of safety, innovation and quality.

-Sal

[polo_pro]

I think as users (and I'm not refering to dealers), we're being a bit hypocritical. We hate how people slam the segway, yet when a viable contender shows up with a similar product we start slamming away. Would we be so ready to defend the segways if the early segway prototypes were the first thing we'd seen? Folks, cut them some slack...they need to be given the time that segway had to learn the lessons on how to make a safe EPAMD.

ps - Again, dealers have a bias...they don't want to see competition since they've invested heavily financially in segway dominating this market niche.

[gbrandwood]

I truly believe that newer players in this field - unless they have something truly novel to offer - will be the also-ran's especially when their weaknesses are born out through everyday use.I remember Sega saying the same about Sony!

[outside]

I wouldn't be suprised if Inc.'s attorneys aren't looking into this for international patent infringement. It's really too close for comfort if you are a patent attorney; i.e. design. It would depend on how the balancing and motor systems are design. How closely they mimic the Segway.

To name one example, when I worked for Patent and Trademark attorneys we handled the Club steering wheel locking system and believe me the owners of that patent went viciously after design offenders, and they never lost a case.

[SegwayDan]

I don't see any hypercriticalness in this thread, and I don't see any competition for Segway in those photos. And we haven't denied anyone any slack. I'm sure they know by now what they're up against.

I'm not an engineer, but I don't see belts and pulleys having a lower coefficient of friction than our helical-ground metal gears. Perhaps they're a little quieter, but then again, what about (what's it called?) the slop (slap?) between going in one direction and then reversing?

[PeteInLongBeach]

2 belts per drive, 4 total? I see significant maintenance, durability, reliability, and thus safety issues with this design.

[Zorba9]

... is great! Now it can also power-up your washing machine, lawnmower, etc. The list is just endless. Those innovative Koreans.:rolleyes:

KOG

[cruiter]

And did you notice the thin alluminum shaft? I'm pretty sure I could have destroyed that by now. But my LSF on Max is hardley the worse for the wear.

Folks, cheap just begats cheap. To remake the i2 by another industry, they can't make it cheaper, they have to make it the same way and market it to sell 5 times as many in a given period.

2 belts per drive, 4 total? I see significant maintenance, durability, reliability, and thus safety issues with this design.

[JohnM]

Folks, cheap just begats cheap. To remake the i2 by another industry, they can't make it cheaper, they have to make it the same way and market it to sell 5 times as many in a given period.

I'm sure Henry Ford had his detractors as well.

[PeteInLongBeach]

Except, in the process of making a less expensive car, Ford's Model T was also simpler, more durable, more clever, more versatile and less maintenance than most anything that had come before it.

Not the best analogy for what the Korean machine is to the Segway...

[JohnM]

Except, in the process of making a less expensive car, Ford's Model T was also simpler, more durable, more clever, more versatile and less maintenance than most anything that had come before it.

Not the best analogy for what the Korean machine is to the Segway...

Since I didn't make an analogy with the Model T, I'll agree with you completely: It wasn't the best analogy.

[amturnip]

Does it happen to qualify under regional laws in the same category ("EPAMD" or whatever the case may be) as Segway equipment?

[SEGsby]

I believe you can reverse engineer something just by looking at it, and it's fine. University research projects fit this catagory.

If you're making something that clearly is a clone of an existing product that has a number of unique patents behind it, and you're planning to distribute it; then that's a different story.

SEGsby

I wouldn't be suprised if Inc.'s attorneys aren't looking into this for international patent infringement. It's really too close for comfort if you are a patent attorney; i.e. design. It would depend on how the balancing and motor systems are design. How closely they mimic the Segway.

To name one example, when I worked for Patent and Trademark attorneys we handled the Club steering wheel locking system and believe me the owners of that patent went viciously after design offenders, and they never lost a case.

[PeteInLongBeach]

Since I didn't make an analogy with the Model T, I'll agree with you completely: It wasn't the best analogy.

Well, the way I read it, there was an implied comparison between the developer of the "korean segway" and Henry Ford. Sorry if I misunderstood the reference... What then did the Ford reference mean in regards or comparison to the developers of the "korean segway"? Can you clarify?

[pam]

Journalistic hyperbole, IMHO. <G>
Pam

[gbrandwood]

Can they duplicate some of the redundant systems for safety?You have to buy two for redundancy. :D

[KSagal]

Sometimes we do seem like a very closed minded group...

I have always maintained that segway is the first, not the only... I believe that Dean feels this way as well, in that the Segway PT is the harbinger of the future of transportation, not the only alternative...

SOme have said that there are too many differences (Thinner control shaft, belt drive) others have said that it would have to be a closer clone to be successful, and still others are already talking patent infringement...

I agree that we should lighten up. None of us have seen this item in person.

The Q sold itself as a Segway clone. It was not, and faded away. Technology, or the lack of it, scuttled that ship.

If this item is reasonable and viable, it will succeed. If it is not, it should not.

One reasonable fear that we should have is that there have been situations where a better marketed, better funded, but lesser products have made major impacts in the consumer market. It is my opinion is that the affect of this is that it lowers the expectations of the consuming public, and that may lead to more restrictive legislations based on the more limited capacity of the majority of the products...

If this is different, but comparable, we are welcome to be brand purists, buy we should try not to be hypocrites.

[JohnM]

Well, the way I read it, there was an implied comparison between the developer of the "korean segway" and Henry Ford. Sorry if I misunderstood the reference... What then did the Ford reference mean in regards or comparison to the developers of the "korean segway"? Can you clarify?

I referenced Henry Ford as a person with a vision that strayed from the excepted norm. You ran with it and made a detailed analogy with the Model T. You said the analogy was bogus and I agreed. Based on what we actually know about this new device, any analogies are premature.

Regarding the "korean segway", after seeing a couple of photos and a reading a sketchy news story the majority of respondents to this thread have declared it DOA. The hypocrisy boggles the mind. It a person were as uninformed about Segways and made critical comments about your favorite gadget, this forum would give him a thrashing for being a technologically ignorant boob. Why the rush to negative judgment?

[SegwayDan]

At the risk of becoming too complacent, I don't see much if any chance for any competing products to the Segway at this point in time.

Perhaps one could compare it to rock climbing. As far as anyone knows, there's one doable route up a given slope or face. The slope is there for anyone to see and study. Somebody's gotta be the first one up to set the pitons, and find the hand and toe holds, etc.

Segway has been doing this for years now. The summit is assailable, as we owners can now see. But it's a narrow path, and if you stray even a little from it, you're asking for trouble. It's also a little pricey, at least in some people's minds.

The reward at the summit, though, offers a clearer vista and a place relatively few have visited--pedestrian empowerment, and a new mode of transportation, itself worth the cost and/or effort. But it's also an experience which can and does open up new and better ways of life for the climbers.

There may be others who appear near "base camp" offering lower-priced, other routes up the slope, and some who consider cost the most important factor may try those other routes.

But we who climb the slope daily and safely can much better evaluate any other route. We can examine their equipment, compare it to ours, and know with more certainty whether it would hold up to the climb or not.

We can also look into the eyes of our guides and talk to them to know their level of commitment to keeping us safe and to improving the route up. Personally, I know and trust our Bedford, NH, crew. Can't say the same about people half a world away.

[JohnM]

Pssst....Dan,
There's a hiking trail, a bike path, an auto road and a cog railway on the back side of the mountain. The view from the top is the same for everyone.

[KSagal]

Pssst....Dan,
There's a hiking trail, a bike path, an auto road and a cog railway on the back side of the mountain. The view from the top is the same for everyone.


You know John, I have to take exception with you here... The mountain mentioned above sounds like Mount Washington, one of the tallest if not the tallest mountain on the east coast. I have driven it with my '68 mopar convertable, and hiked Tuckerman's revine and on to the top... As nice as the view was after parking the car, the view was better after putting down my backpack...

A couple factors to consider. I was sitting on my butt in a comfortable car for some time just before one view, and to prepare for that viewing, all I had to do was walk from the parking area. For the other, I spent 2 days camping, hiking and carrying a 40 pound pack. Dropping that pack and preparing for the view was the prep on the second look...

I enjoyed the view much better having hiked up that mountain.



(also, it was cloudy and foggy the day I drove, and clear the day I hiked...LOL)

[KSagal]

My point in the previous post is that the attitude is often as important as the view, when discussing an observation...

[PeteInLongBeach]

I referenced Henry Ford as a person with a vision that strayed from the excepted norm. You ran with it and made a detailed analogy with the Model T. You said the analogy was bogus and I agreed. Based on what we actually know about this new device, any analogies are premature.

Regarding the "korean segway", after seeing a couple of photos and a reading a sketchy news story the majority of respondents to this thread have declared it DOA. The hypocrisy boggles the mind. It a person were as uninformed about Segways and made critical comments about your favorite gadget, this forum would give him a thrashing for being a technologically ignorant boob. Why the rush to negative judgment?

All I did was point out concerns I had with what I saw as a significant shortcoming in the depictions shown of its current belt-driven design. Had details of this design actually appeared superior, I would have pointed that out as well, and cheered it along.

I love my Segways, but there have been and will be other devices that get my attention and respect also.

[JohnM]

(also, it was cloudy and foggy the day I drove, and clear the day I hiked...LOL)

Lucky guy, Karl. Five times to the summit (hike, bike and cog railway) and I've never seen anything but the inside of clouds.

But would the view be better if you were on a Segway?

[SegwayDan]

So what's your purpose here, man? You get off on being the duty curmudgeon? Or perhaps it's just that you really don't get it (you're still not a Segway owner, right?).

Karl and I were being metaphorical. If all you see are clouds, then I guess that's your plight. But whether you "get it" or not, we're talking about the *journey*. Destinations are fleeting at best, as there are always new ones for which to set a new course.

[JohnM]

So what's your purpose here, man?

Dan,
I'm on a metaphorical journey, but one that doesn't reward me for remaining stationary or spinning about in tight circles.

[PeteInLongBeach]

Dan,
I'm on a metaphorical journey, but one that doesn't reward me for remaining stationary or spinning about in tight circles.

Maybe this should have been posted on the thread about the latest things shouted at you from bicyclists...

[KSagal]

Maybe this should have been posted on the thread about the latest things shouted at you from bicyclists...


Touche!

.

[polo_pro]

Dan,
I'm on a metaphorical journey, but one that doesn't reward me for remaining stationary or spinning about in tight circles.

Maybe I woke up in a cynical mood....but, boy JohM, did you end up in the wrong place!

[SEGsby]

Some of the earliest examples of human religious rites, simply involve spinning in stationary, tight circles; that lead nowhere and everywhere at once.

"To everything, turn, turn, turn, there is a reason. Turn, turn, turn."

SEGsby