Do I give up the i167's and go to I2 or just get batteries

[BillPaxton]

My wife and I have been gliding only since last November when Antony of Madsegs "wow"ed us with the tour of Madrid, so we are complete newbies. Now our i167s with 3-yr-old batteries are at the point where they are down a bar going to the post office three blocks away to get the mail.
I love my glide and she does too, loads of modifications, but it looks like in the next 6 months we will both need new batteries, even tho we recondition them every 60 days.
So my question is to those of you that have been here before, should I just make the commitment and upgrade the glides and sell me old ones on ebay or such, or is it worth it to invest in new batteries? We both have the old batteries and the 12.0 firmware (which we have been advised is better than the upgrade because it isn't as limiting).
Can anyone give a pro/con of i167 vs. i2 from a first person point of view? We just can't afford to keep both and I don't want to give up a good thing if its worthwhile to keep it.

Thanks
+B

[SegwayDan]

There's absolutely nothing to compare to the i2 gliding experience. A few little oddities here and there compared to the 167, but the smoothness and the naturalness of steering are SOOOOO much better, you really owe it to yourselves to take the i2 plunge. Lots more money, but well worth it.

I was in a similar situation to you with very worn out batteries on my 167. I even bought a used pair of nickels for $500 which got me back in operation. I was also toying with the prospect of lithiums. But those couldn't have been financed, and my i2 could.

But all in all, I'd heartily recommend the i2s. Fantastic improvement on what you already know to be a great machine.

[polo_pro]

Simple...$100 (at most $200) for a set of used NiMH. If you aren't sure of the history and how they've been treated, then you certainly want to "take them for a test drive". I suggest several 10 mile glides.

If you're concerned about the age of the batteries, I suggest black NiMH with a part number ending in AH or AI.

Now if you're really just looking for an excuse to buy an i2, then the above logic won't sway you.

ps - The only reason I got a couple pairs of Li-Ions was because I bought them used for a very nice price. Otherwise, I think they are too expensive.

[drmarty]

Bill, Dan, Plo,

Come on. This is easy.

OR???

You of course should keep your wonderful Gen 1 machines, get some good used NiMH batts (I can direct you or even help you) and TREAT yourselves to a shiny pair of i2's, White for her and Jet black for him.

When people get ready to sell their Segways they always put "Professionally Maintained" so if you keep your Original machines you will always have a ride when your machines are in for "Professional Maintenance" or heaven forbid, repairs. If you keep them you can take friends and family along on rides. Of course you can use the Gen 1 for Polo (your welcome Plo) and remember you cannot travel on a plane with Lithium batteries. So keep the Gen 1 for all those trips.

Is this even a question?

Marty

And remember the i167's are old, the batteries are bad, and who knows what they are worth? But someone might want to buy them. My number is 714 757-9799. Ha Ha.

[Isidore]

The i2 is great and a much more practical 'grown up' product. It is very much better and safer on bumpy/ unfamiliar roads. The problem is that its responses are really quite arthritic compared with an early gen 1 on 12.0 software. You just have to decide what is more important for you. What I would like is my i2 with the responsiveness of an i167 on 12.0.

[wwhopper]

Never Sell a classic Icon, just because you see some new glitter on the road!

I am sure you know all of those folks who have sold their '64 1/4 Mustangs, or that '68 Camaro, or those early '70's Dodge Chargers, for only a few hundered bucks. And now they say, boy if I just had that car, my retirement would be paid for.

Now look at the auctions, those things are going for more than a house, and a BIG House, cost back then.

A set or two of NIMH batteries are not that expensive, the Li Ions are, but worth it. Keep your horses running.

Now if you did have a few extra bucks, pick up one I-2. It is a lot of fun, very different than your I-167. But the fun is still there in the I-167,

Right now the market for the I-167 is not that hot, so I would say hold it, and get new batteries or an I-2 or if you are really a wild man (and I know you are) an X2.....

Call me, we can get you what ever you need! Better yet come North and glide with us!

[BillPaxton]

Simple...$100 (at most $200) for a set of used NiMH. If you aren't sure of the history and how they've been treated, then you certainly want to "take them for a test drive". I suggest several 10 mile glides.


Well I really didn't want to buy used batteries or next year I'm right back where I started. I hear a set of n NiMH is $400 and LiIon twice that, times two sets is a pretty penny.
I am leaning at the moment to liths but that means I have to get the upgrade - does it take long?

[KSagal]

I would like to hear from Dealers and others on two topics regarding this;


I believe that there are some advantages to certain disabled users with the gen 1 machine, so I would appreciate that not being considered in the next two questions...


1. If a person who has never been on a seg visits and tries gen 1 and tries gen 2, what do they buy?

2. Clearly we hear all the time of gen 1 owners trashing the value of gen 2 machines, and I believe that most of it may be honest, but is also a touch of sour grapes. I am curious to the impression of all those gen one owners who have taken the plunge and gone to gen 2. Has anyone given up the gen 2 and gone back to the gen 1?

I have a gen one e-167 and an i2. If I were to sell one, which should it be?

[macgeek]

Over the year I have seen several dealers offer a trade in / Trade up to a i2 program. Maybe that is the route you should take

Jonathan

[polo_pro]

Well I really didn't want to buy used batteries or next year I'm right back where I started. I hear a set of n NiMH is $400 and LiIon twice that, times two sets is a pretty penny.
I am leaning at the moment to liths but that means I have to get the upgrade - does it take long?

Maybe the answer is to get one pair of each type of battery? (Then you can leave one of your units on 12.0, which might make it more valuable, say to polo players, when it comes time to sell it down the road.) Do you glide alone sometimes for long distance, or most the time is your wife with you? I bought 2 pairs of Li-Ion and you really feel the hit in your wallet! I can't imagine doing this if my Li-Ions were new and I paid MSRP?! If the update process happens without a hitch (which is the case 95% of the time), then it takes 5 min to upgrade to 14.2.

I would like to hear from Dealers and others on two topics regarding this;


I believe that there are some advantages to certain disabled users with the gen 1 machine, so I would appreciate that not being considered in the next two questions...


1. If a person who has never been on a seg visits and tries gen 1 and tries gen 2, what do they buy?

2. Clearly we hear all the time of gen 1 owners trashing the value of gen 2 machines, and I believe that most of it may be honest, but is also a touch of sour grapes. I am curious to the impression of all those gen one owners who have taken the plunge and gone to gen 2. Has anyone given up the gen 2 and gone back to the gen 1?

I have a gen one e-167 and an i2. If I were to sell one, which should it be?

Karl, in your first question, you haven't pointed out an obvious bias of dealers to sell Gen 2. Sure, a dealer might have some used units that they took in on trade from another customer (or perhaps some rental units they need to unload), but the primary goal of a dealer is to sell Gen 2's to fill their quota. In a sense, it's like going to a car dealer...they'll always push you towards their new car lot over their used car lot, eh?

As to your second question, polo players have switched enmasse from Gen 2 back to Gen 1. But then this type of user probably also prefers 12.0 over 14.1 (well, except for the mandatory battery change at half time). I'll readily admit that polo is not the typical application for either a Gen 1 or Gen 2 machine.

In these Gen 1/Gen 2 comparisons ($1500 vs $4500), I think the main point that most people gloss over is price. If segway adoption rates have been low due to the high price, lower priced used Gen 1's will make this technology available to the common man. But this doesn't directly put dollars in dealers' or Segway INC's pocket so the topic is ignored.

[KSagal]

Plo has some excellent points...

I edited the request for information to include dealers and others right away, because I do not want this to be biased...

My question remains...

Clearly, there are some advantages to the gen one for certain types of mobility issues. I understand that.

I am not quite as clear as to the advantage of gen one over gen two for polo, accept that 10.0 or 12.0 is more responsive than 14.x software, but this would mean that a 10.0 or 12.0 gen one is also better than a 14.x gen one. With that in mind, and we only compared 14.x gen one with 14.x gen 2, which is preferred...

I will pick on CMonkey for a moment... He has posted on more than one occasion that he prefers a gen 1 for polo, and an i2 for all other gliding...

So the main question remains, and I invite anyone to chime in... With the exception of customized uses, does anyone know of a person who had gen 1, switched to gen 2, then chose to switch back, for anything other than polo?

[KSagal]

I will also even offer up my own 'customized uses' item...

I prefer the e-167 for use with a trailer. Not because of anything other than the e stand. I can load easier, and stop and get off with a trailer easier if I have e stand...

I believe this not to be a gen one or gen two item, but e vs i model...

For me, if I could get my i2 converted to e2, I would be seriously hard pressed to justify the two machines...

I don't think about it much, but most each and every time I grab a machine for an errand or glide, it is the i2. I go back to the e-167 when I have a special project that it is suited for, or when I will have my kids on the platform with me, or like that, but right out of the blocks, I usually go for the i2, even with it's quirks...

[polo_pro]

I will also even offer up my own 'customized uses' item...

I prefer the e-167 for use with a trailer. Not because of anything other than the e stand. I can load easier, and stop and get off with a trailer easier if I have e stand...

I believe this not to be a gen one or gen two item, but e vs i model...


Karl, could you go into more detail about how an e167 is your choice for towing a trailer? I have a fair amount of experience towing trailers behind my segway (due to long distance gliding), but my trailers are 2 wheeled. Hence, I'd prefer Eeyore (my i170). I just put him in power assist mode, and the positive tongue weight just pushes his tail to the ground.

In my case, I'd be concerned specificly with when Silver (my e167) jumps forward and tilts back as he goes into self balancing mode. If I had a 2 wheeled trailer attached, I'd think the trailer's weight would shift with this and drive the back of silver further down. Now Silver would have to fight this by pushing back further...and I'm not sure he'd win the fight against a 100 pound loaded trailer!

Now Am I missing something? I guess I'm just ignorant as to how tongue weight (positive or negative) affects self-balancing.

As to polo, the main complaint I hear is cornering. But I can think of three other reasons not to use Gen 2 machines in polo. First if you hit a patch of bumpy ground, everyone's experienced how Gen 2 machines will suddenly slow down significantly. Second, as you push the envelope trying to get to the ball before someone else (obeying the rules to avoid a collision), you move your center of gravity or stretch and in both cases it's nice to have something to hold onto! Third, there are times when you're just trying to keep control of the machine...you were probably already pushing the limits and envelope, but now you're just trying to stay on the platform. Or maybe, you just hit a wet patch and had momentary "loss of traction". Either way, having something to hang onto helps stay on the platform, because if you dismount you're going to spend a good 10 or 15 seconds getting back in the game.

cmonkey probably has a few more items to add. By the way Steve Steinberg of Segway of Oakland and SLong (also on the same team) are the ones to talk to about using Gen 2 in polo. Both continue to use Gen 2 despite the supposed deficiencies. And despite my supposed dislike of Gen2, I'm considering getting an x2...I'm watching one of the other polo players to see how his holds up during the next 5 or 10 matches.

ps - I use 2 wheel trailers because they're designed to go hundreds of miles with a load. In my case mine is a converted kid carrier that'd normally be towed behind a bike.

[KSagal]

The choice for trailer is key here...

You will see that the majority of the trailers that I use are 4 wheel. I do this because of several reasons, but mostly because they become a neutral drag on movement, instead of a weight and balance thing...

You can see from my gallery, I have a variety of trailers, and also have a kid's bike trailer, but I prefer my 4 wheel flatbed as the tote machine...

Your comment indicates that you were picking the trailer based on the values and needs of the trailer... I did it based on the seg.

Look at it this way. The trailers, even the good ones cost a couple hundred dollars. The segs (I bought both of mine new) cost several thousands of dollars. I choose to make the trailer accomodate the seg, not the other way around...

With all this said, I have near zero tongue weight. So, e stand works fine.

As far as gliding with the trailer, I see no real difference at all. I have hitches on both machines.

Again, I have stated in other threads, I think of my e as sort of a pick-up truck. It has more storage, built in batteries, lights all over, and lots of bling and mods. It goes well with the added trailer...

My i2 is more sporty. Less mods, more go and show, less utility from the perspective of I do less with it that is outside of the design parameters than I do with the e-167.

I believe a major issue is that I cut my teeth on e. I then went to i.

Most everyone else cuts their teeth on i. Then they may or may not go somewhere else...

[SegwayDan]

It only takes a few minutes, assuming the dealer has the computer set up and online ready to go. He just detaches the CS and plugs the base connector to the cable adapter going to the computer.

[MiamiBeachPatrol]

My wife and I have been gliding only since last November when Antony of Madsegs "wow"ed us with the tour of Madrid, so we are complete newbies. Now our i167s with 3-yr-old batteries are at the point where they are down a bar going to the post office three blocks away to get the mail.
I love my glide and she does too, loads of modifications, but it looks like in the next 6 months we will both need new batteries, even tho we recondition them every 60 days.
So my question is to those of you that have been here before, should I just make the commitment and upgrade the glides and sell me old ones on ebay or such, or is it worth it to invest in new batteries? We both have the old batteries and the 12.0 firmware (which we have been advised is better than the upgrade because it isn't as limiting).
Can anyone give a pro/con of i167 vs. i2 from a first person point of view? We just can't afford to keep both and I don't want to give up a good thing if its worthwhile to keep it.

Thanks
+B

Bill,
Have you ridden an i2?
......... No comparison.... i.e. in my opinion.

The i2 is such an intuitive machine. Take a spin on one and I think your decision will be a no-brainer.
Besides, in a couple of more years... no gen1 parts coming from INC. Right?

Michael

[BillPaxton]

thanks everyone; these are great points I hadn't considered. Having never ridden a series 2 I can't comment on the comfort of the glide, but with my 12.0 software, I can do things that it sounds like I can't do on either the 2s or for that matter on 14.1, but let me ask to be certain I understand:
The whole reason I bought my IRC trials was that I glide through bumpy fields, up and down steep (but short) embankments, and over the extremely old and jagged sidewalks of the Palm Beach bike path.
I don't want to give up the control of speed, direction, etc. It sounds like the reasons I love my 67 do not yet outway the things I can't do on a gen2. Time to save up for liths.

Will, as much as I love your idea, I am severely limited at the checkbook. I love this forum for responses like this, from all walks [glides] of life...thanks again everyone - loads of rep points tonight.

[KSagal]

Bill you asked for advise. I ask you to see if you can find any person at all who has had both, and gone back to gen 1. I have not found that person...

The only people I have seen who say that gen one gives more performance are owners of gen 1 that do not own gen 2.

In rough terrain, regardless of flat face or the controls that the gen 2 puts itself under, it still performs better than gen 1.

You did see just a bit of lamenting for gen 1 with old software as having a slight advantage in polo. That advantage is lost when you buy the litiums.

So, this is your decision to make, but I will happily race you with my i2 and win.

One thing I have found is a significantly higher average speed with the i2, because it can handle the terrain so much better. With my e-167 (with oversized tires) I need to pay attention and slow down at odd curb cuts, and weird slopes, and small potholes and rough pavement. It is a natural slowdown that needs to be made to keep solid control...

On the i2, it can handle the rough terrain and all the situations indicated above so much better, I slow down much less, and therefore average a much higher speed...

I posted this previously, as some people were speculating on the range of the i2 vs the i-167. My view is that because you glide faster on average, it adversly affects the range.

If nothing else, you owe it to yourself to ride an i2 if you truely want performance. If the dollars are the primary factor, then do what you must. You will have fun on the 180s with LiIons. I love my e-167.

[BillPaxton]

I enjoy your posts over all the others, you get right to the brass tacks, and that is what I was asking for. I have never ridden an i2, but I will tomorrow, and I am excited about it. I've gone back and forth on this but you are right- can't judge if I haven't tried. Tomorrow is also trade in the lease car day, so if things go in my favor perhaps I will have some slush funds to invest in my local dealer.

[wwhopper]

Will, as much as I love your idea, I am severely limited at the checkbook. I love this forum for responses like this, from all walks [glides] of life...thanks again everyone - loads of rep points tonight.

That is why I work part time at the dealership to feed the habit (and to ride machines I can't afford)

Thank HEAVEN, this is not like my college job, where I worked above a Peppridge Farm Thrift Shop and I spent my paycheck downstairs. Right now only tips go into my Segway addiction fund at the dealership, and when I have enough to buy something I do...

Now if I can just turn my Mercedes-Benz Club connections into something that pays.... Heck I will never be able to afford that addiction, especially after last week, with AMG 63's SLR's and all the other fun toys I had all around me all week. Back to my old ML and Chevy Astro, and the segs fit in there just fine!

[Sharkie]

Bill: Make sure you take the i2 for more than a few minute glide. It will take you a few minutes to get used to it. When I first got on one, I hated it. The second few minutes, I started to see what all the fuss was about, and the third glide I was in love with it. I'm still working on getting one to replace my 180, but I do plan on getting one. I strongly feel that it's the type of thing you can't base on a description though. You have to experience one for long enough to get used to it. Once you do get used to it though, I think you'll find it tough to go back to your 167.

Jim

[PeteInLongBeach]

I agree with Sharkie 100%. The i2 felt awkward at first - I missed having something stationary to hold on to if needed. But after an hour, I made the transition and discovered that your body's own balance compensates intuitively for the lack of a stationary control shaft, kind of like skiing, and the lean steer is virtually self correcting. At the end of that first i2 glide I suddenly found myself doing maneuvers and going over irregularities & other surface transitions at speeds I never would (or could) have attempted on the i180.

I now keep my i180 in my motorhome for use on weekend trips, and still enjoy it several times a month. There's something about it that I still love, even with its comparative shortcomings... what is it?

[hellphish]

If you enjoy climbing interesting terrain with your 167 and find that you like having fine control over where the wheels are going to be, I would say that the i2 is not for you. I definitely feel much safer on a gen one when going over terrain that requires me to precisely place each wheel.

[gbrandwood]

Michael mentioned Gen 1 parts earlier. This is an important factor. You might be lucky like me and never break a kickstand or a handlebar but then again, there are many who have have broken their handlebars - and recently too. You've already experienced the effect of over zealous people in bars...

Gen 1 parts are thin on the ground as it is at the moment and it's only going to get worse. The design, having no electronics in the handlebar on the i2 makes the machine more robust in the event of an accident. I was always worried on my Gen 1 that I might see the handlebars smash right in front of me. And that was with the certainty I could get them replaced!

If you give the i2 time on your test glide I reckon you'll find it hard to go back. You'll want the i2 experience every time.

Please come back and let us know what you decide...

[KSagal]

If you enjoy climbing interesting terrain with your 167 and find that you like having fine control over where the wheels are going to be, I would say that the i2 is not for you. I definitely feel much safer on a gen one when going over terrain that requires me to precisely place each wheel.


I find this an interesting and surely a minority position. DO you have an i2 as well as a gen 1? You may be the person that I say I have not found who has had equal time on both machines, and chose gen 1. I have met none other. (That I am aware of)

Now, the first 10 hours on the i2 do not count. I read here that others have said the first hour, or even the first 10 minutes. I don't know when the change-over is. Perhaps because I owned that e-167 since very early on it took longer for me to feel comfortable on the i2, but if I know that I will be on uneven or rough terrain, I absolutely would not do as you, and I would take my i2.

So, please let me know, how much time did you spend on the i2 before you decided the gen one was a better fit for you. Also, does your gen one have 14.x software? That may also be a factor...

[pam]

Actually, I feel like I have greater control over my 167 than over my i2, and I have both and considerable amount of time on each. I'm not sure I'd call it "fine" control - but I find leansteer to be, sometimes, a bit more fluid than I'd like. Can't describe it better - That said, I wouldn't give up either, at this point.
Pam

[bentbiker]

Actually, I feel like I have greater control over my 167 than over my i2, and I have both and considerable amount of time on each. I'm not sure I'd call it "fine" control - but I find leansteer to be, sometimes, a bit more fluid than I'd like. Can't describe it better - That said, I wouldn't give up either, at this point.
PamPam,

Your reference to the I2 being more fluid than you'd like may be the first reference I've seen to my experience, which I, too, have difficulty describing -- maybe equivalent to oversteer on a car or fishtailing on a slipery surface.

What I found was that I had filled my LSF bag with more "essentials" than were essential -- lock with extra bike cable since the lock-cable was so short, bottle of slime, water bottle, etc. As I took out weight, steering improved. Do you have the bag, and if so, does the ride improve when you remove the bag?

Hellphish -- could my attempted description relate at all to your reference to less precise steering? My explanation is that the extra weight begins to override the re-centering capability of the LSF by the rubber in the Pivot Base Assembly, making steering input just a bit less precise; slight adjustments aren't as quick.

[KSagal]

Thank you all for these latest comments. I am starting to see a clearer picture...

It is my opinion that the i2 nudges out the gen 1, but it is a different animal entirely. It is like a frog and a duck. Very diffcult to compare them...

I feel the gen 2 is more intuitive, and it can conform more to the glider, if the glider is "on".

I recall an assessment for a hot new mercedes sport coupe several years ago in one of the car magazines. (I think it was something like a 380CE, but I don't remember exactly) Well, the automotive engineering specialist who wrote the article said the car was one of the best, most precice cars he had ever seen or driven. He went on to say that it is so much car, it is too much for the average American driver. He was not insulting the American driver, but rather saying that sometimes too much driver responsiveness is not appreciated...

I sometimes feel that the i2 has no "cruise control". On my e-167, I clearly can ride hard, and if I go faster than what is easy, on rough or pitching surfaces, I have to drive it hard... But, I can slow down a little, and ease up on my white knuckles...

On the i2, it is not as easy to loosen up. If you want an aggressive gliding, I still maintain that I feel the i2 can do more and harder. But if you want to cruise at 80%, still on, just with a reasonable heartbeat, then it is more of a competition between gens 1 & 2.

I also feel that this is almost exclusively a gen 1 phenominon. I believe that anyone who learns on an i2 may never see or understand this.

I do not play polo, but I wonder if this is also a reason that gen 1 has some fans in that game... Clearly, there is not much more aggressive gliding than polo, but he field is relatively flat, and you have to always have your eye on the ball and other gliders, so the 80% gliding, 20% ball playing may be a reasonable assessment.

[Florida Ever-Glides]

I think it would be very interesting if an objective 3rd party could conduct a 'controlled' experiment, at length, that would measure the behavioral differences between Gen 1 and Gen 2 units in different riding environments.

It would have to be a professional testing company like Consumer Reports that would do a variety of tests with novice, intermediate, and expert riders...

[Madsegs]

I have used the i2 on a few tours (min 3 hours each) and was given one for 3 days to try to convert me.....
I hate them. I will beat anyone in a race with my i167 and i am now running 14.1 (had to clear my logs) as there is no comparison. They are different. The gen2 is better at speed on rough ground-UNTIL YOU FALL. the gen 1 outperforms the i2 in all other areas.
I am not alone. The oldest segway tour in Spain (barcelonaglides.com) has one that he loved for months but has since returned to his faithful i170. In Madrid (posible my persuation and ability) another tour (competitor/friend) has one i2 and 5 i180´s. He always kept the i2 for himself until we had a challenge....he now uses an i180.

In my opinion they have tampered down the ride (software) as the design is unsafe. Your feet cannot move and your leg is pinned between the fender and the bar when in a tight turn. So when you loose traction and human instinct says hold on, you cause yourself a great deal of problems (in a case that i know of a brocken ankle) with the extra turn induced in the fall.
The i2 can be shaped better/safer and im sure it will be, as can the handlebar be better engineered on the i series.

For those of you that say sell due to spares shortages....passing the buck does not solve the problem and also shows a terrible side of your character.
If anyone is interested in a simple steel bar that protects an i series handlebar in a fall and can support an already brocken handlebar to be used as normal i will post a page on my website soon when i get a chance. (If the handlebar is the only problem for some there is already a solution, i posted it here some time ago but will do a dedicated segway repair site in the near future).

I still feel that the i2 was launched early to cover blunders and part shortages for the i series and needs some more thought.
The new P (colapsabe/foldable) will incorporate the best of both but less range.

Bill when did you last deep-cycle the batteries? (mine are 2002- i still use them)
Have you actually run out of battery whilst using it, or would you just like to do more distance?
If yes to the last question, is it worth the cost for the few times you need to go the extra distance.
The heat or cold will reduce the range more on NiMh but then i have that here too, and you have more ground clearance with the NiMh.
If you think you can climb stairs/bumps/steps with the new tyres i found for you, that stops when you fit Li-ion as you will hit them first.

I greatly reduced "Humvee"´s ability when i had Li-ions on for a while.

What you have is fun and should last a long -long time. Dont waste money unless you can afford it.

[joe]

The new P (colapsabe/foldable) will incorporate the best of both but less range.

Tell more. Now.

--
Johannes

[hellphish]

Actually, I think the gen2 is much better for polo. Something about being able to turn more than twice as fast...

[gbrandwood]

I will beat anyone in a race with my i167 and i am now running 14.1 (had to clear my logs) as there is no comparison. They are different.Now there's confidence! :) We should have gone for that race in the dark in the woods...

The gen2 is better at speed on rough ground-UNTIL YOU FALL. the gen 1 outperforms the i2 in all other areas. I am not alone.I rode my i167 for two years and in less than 1 month on my i2, I knew it was the better machine - for me at least. Rough ground or otherwise. The ride is superior. I don't play polo and I haven't fallen yet, but if I ever do, I know my handlebar will be "working" when I pick it up. And I think I'm also not alone. And in time, there will be more Gen2s on the road than Gen1s. Safety in numbers...

In my opinion they have tampered down the ride (software) as the design is unsafe. Your feet cannot move and your leg is pinned between the fender and the bar when in a tight turn. So when you loose traction and human instinct says hold on, you cause yourself a great deal of problems (in a case that i know of a brocken ankle) with the extra turn induced in the fall.On the i2 your body is in the same position when turning as it would be on a Gen1, its LSF just makes sure you are where you need to be. On the Gen1, you had to learn to lean when turning. No more control shafts twisted! This alone makes the i2 safer in my opinion - it's more in tune your body's natural inclinations.

I can't disagree about the leg pinning though. I know it can be avoided by standing further back on the platform, but I prefer a more central stance and to be honest, it has never caused me a problem. And it's true, you feet cannot move side to side much, but they can forward and backward, and the central console also helps promote a good stance.

The i2 can be shaped better/safer and im sure it will be, as can the handlebar be better engineered on the i series.I'm sure the i2 will be improved with later releases and I'm equally sure that INC will not better engineering the Gen1 handlebars. I'm not saying INC don't make mistakes, but the LSF is the way to go. Their money is behind it and their future depends on it.

For those of you that say sell due to spares shortages....passing the buck does not solve the problem and also shows a terrible side of your character.I would certainly consider the availability of parts for a machine to be a reasonable factor in determining the value of a move from one machine to another. It is a factor, but only one of many. There's no dark side, unless you are misleading the buyer.

Gen1s will live on, just like many old cars do with original and non-original parts. But most people will be buying the new stuff, for the newer and improved designs, the reliability, servicabity and the safety.

[gbrandwood]

Actually, I think the gen2 is much better for polo. Something about being able to turn more than twice as fast...I know you are talking in jest (you are aren't you?), but I think polo is only a minority application for the Segway. Am I wrong? Does that make it a bad thing? No. But unless you specifically want to play Segway Polo at its best, or have specific mobility issues that are not compatible with the LSF, why would anyone consider a Gen1 over an i2, other than cost? Cost being a big factor of course.

For me, the Segway smile got bigger:

Gen1 = :)
Gen2 = :D

[polo_pro]

Thank you all for these latest comments. I am starting to see a clearer picture...

It is my opinion that the i2 nudges out the gen 1, but it is a different animal entirely. It is like a frog and a duck. Very diffcult to compare them...

I feel the gen 2 is more intuitive, and it can conform more to the glider, if the glider is "on".

...

I do not play polo, but I wonder if this is also a reason that gen 1 has some fans in that game... Clearly, there is not much more aggressive gliding than polo, but he field is relatively flat, and you have to always have your eye on the ball and other gliders, so the 80% gliding, 20% ball playing may be a reasonable assessment.

I'm not sure I'd say the differences were that much. To use your animal comparisons, I'd say it's more like the differences between a horse and donkey. I'll let you guess which type of segway I think is like which animal, eh? 8^) 8^) 8^)

I liked your car analogy, but the one I use is automatic vs manual transmission. If you don't mind the annoyance of controlling everything yourself, then you probably drive a stick and the Gen 1 turning mechanism isn't a hinderance.

Finally as to polo, yes, the gliding is "aggressive". But more importantly it's controlled. Because that's what prevents crashes. Knowing exactly how your segway will react in a hard turn, with your center of gravity low as you lean and taking into account the wetness of the grass. And just for the record, those polo field are NOT as smooth and level as you think. Sure, it's not a bumpy hill where you have to carefully watch every "step" you make. But the challenge lies in tearing around at 12 MPH (focusing on the ball and which players are vectoring in at you) and suddenly having a wheel drop 2 or 3 inches!

ps - The ratio of gliding vs ball play in polo is solely dependent on the number of players on the field. With 4 to 6 players, your 80/20 ratio is about right. But as soon as you get 8 players, the ratio is about 50/50. At 10 to 12 players, you're probably more like 20/80. I prefer larger numbers of people since precise passing becomes much more important.

[PeteInLongBeach]

I've never experienced any interference between the i2 lean steer and my leg, but then I do tend to stand back on the platform for added stopping ability, so maybe that's why. But, all other things aside, for me it comes down to 3 things:

-Because of the new transmission placement, the rider has a wider stance on the i2, which means more stability. When transitioning from my i2 back to my i180, I feel quite awkward as my feet feel too close together.

-It is inherantly difficult to accurately coordinate the correct amount of lean along with the correct amount of input on the twist grip for any given turn on the i180. Oops, turned the grip a bit too much for a given speed & turn, oops, leaned a bit too much or too little or too early or too late or not at all, etc.

-And don't even get me started on the incessant waggling of the control shaft on the i180. Whereas the 2 other issues above were not as obvious before I got my i2, the control shaft waggling over various surfaces and transitions has always seemed very unstable and has always made me very uncomfortable since day 1.

This discussion is quite timely this weekend, as I am out of town with the RV and using the i180 a lot. After a couple of days it starts feeling OK again, and my turning/leaning coordination starts coming back, but I'll be glad to get on the i2 when I return home. Still, I enjoy the "classic" look of the i180, I kind of like having some kind of "dashboard", I like the handlebars, and the gearsets are much quieter than the i2 (which can be a mixed blessing when approaching pedestrians).

[SEGsby]

Eliminating "Stick Waggle" was the main reason I got the i2. Hated it.

SEGsby

[Madsegs]

Tell more. Now.

--
Johannes
You will see it soon enough along with alternate segway modes of transport.

[pam]

sorry for the delay in response. It could be.. sometimes I carry my purse in my handlebar bag, but I haven't ridden without the bag in months and months, so I can't remember if there was a difference.

If so, it's a different response than the i167 - because I overloaded it's handlebar bag on a regular basis <G>.

Pam


Pam,

Your reference to the I2 being more fluid than you'd like may be the first reference I've seen to my experience, which I, too, have difficulty describing -- maybe equivalent to oversteer on a car or fishtailing on a slipery surface.

What I found was that I had filled my LSF bag with more "essentials" than were essential -- lock with extra bike cable since the lock-cable was so short, bottle of slime, water bottle, etc. As I took out weight, steering improved. Do you have the bag, and if so, does the ride improve when you remove the bag?

Hellphish -- could my attempted description relate at all to your reference to less precise steering? My explanation is that the extra weight begins to override the re-centering capability of the LSF by the rubber in the Pivot Base Assembly, making steering input just a bit less precise; slight adjustments aren't as quick.

[clr22182]

My wife and I have been gliding only since last November when Antony of Madsegs "wow"ed us with the tour of Madrid, so we are complete newbies. Now our i167s with 3-yr-old batteries are at the point where they are down a bar going to the post office three blocks away to get the mail.
I love my glide and she does too, loads of modifications, but it looks like in the next 6 months we will both need new batteries, even tho we recondition them every 60 days.
So my question is to those of you that have been here before, should I just make the commitment and upgrade the glides and sell me old ones on ebay or such, or is it worth it to invest in new batteries? We both have the old batteries and the 12.0 firmware (which we have been advised is better than the upgrade because it isn't as limiting).
Can anyone give a pro/con of i167 vs. i2 from a first person point of view? We just can't afford to keep both and I don't want to give up a good thing if its worthwhile to keep it.

Thanks
+B
Good morning,
I haven't tried it yet, but I think one can replace the NIMH batteries inside the plastic case. I have an old pair of dead Nimh batteries and have opened one case with a utility knife. The inside contains 60, 1.2 volt sub C Nimh batteries in two arrays of 30 each. Sub C NIMH batteries are available from several sources on the net. There are 4200 ma subC batteries with tabs for soldering for about $3 each in bulk (4500 ma also available but unreasonably expensive). You will need a total of 120 batteries for each pair of cases. The 4200 ma batteries (Segway used 3000ma batteries in the case I opened) should increase the range of the NIMH packs to 12-15 miles. Be careful opening the cases, There is a circuit board along the long flat side of the cases that must not be damaged. When It becomes necessary, I plan to purchase 120 batteries and replace the dead ones in a test. I'll let you know if it works whevever I need to do it. It may be awhile however, because I've read that NIMH batteries have a shelf life which makes doing it sooner than necessary seem wasteful. If you research Polymer LION batteries you should be able to replace them also if you have a dead LION set because there are Polymer LION batteries available from TENERGY also on the net, but more expensive than NIMH and also LION batteries are not airline acceptable. Some of the TENERGY LION batteries are in the range of 10,000 ma which should provide a very extended gliding range. If anyone has experience with replacing either type of battery, please post what the experience was.
Thank you,
Charles Rogers