Quick question about charging batteries [Archive]

cmonkey

03-12-2007, 10:25 PM

The consensus will be to plug it in.

here's my 2 cents.

I do something similar... I'll use my seg to go to run an errand and then it goes into the garage, sometimes I plug it in, sometimes I don't.

If it stays in the garage for more than 24 hrs, I'll usually plug it in the next morning.

Sometimes it'll gor for 1-2 days without being plugged in.
Sometimes it'll be in my car for 1-2 days without charging.

BUT, I always have it charged for the weekends.

Just don't forget, and leave it unplugged for an extended period of time. (weeks/months) (someone chime in about the old lions)

Plugging it in a day or two after a short glide shouldn't pose a problem. But you'll probably want to err on the prepared side.... by leaving plugged in as much as possible.

forcelite

03-12-2007, 11:00 PM

Thanks so much for the help.

I plan on using it everyday like this so thats where the constant discharging - charging concern came in.

Everyday I will go to the post office, 15 mins, then it stays in the garage till the next day when I go to the post office.

So basically, I dont have to worry about it, and can do whatever, but the danger lies if the battery gets to low while off the charger,

Thanks again

Force

Sharkie

03-12-2007, 11:31 PM

Here's another way to think of it. A "cycle" is considered to be a full discharge and then recharge. If a battery is going to last 1000 cycles, and you discharge it to 50% and then recharge it each time, it would probably last about 2000 of those type of charges. By plugging it in all the time, you are protecting the batteries from possible over discharge, at a cost of a few cents a week. With 15 minutes of use each day, you won't use a "cycle" for a LONG time!

HTH
Jim

cruiter

03-12-2007, 11:32 PM

My conversation with my dealer and with Segway about this was when done for the day plug it in even if you didn't use a whole bar. A cycle is implied as a full charge from nearly fully discharged. A partial cycle or recharge is just keeping it charged and balanced and better for the cells. I want the batterys to last as long as possible, so I'll follow their guidance. I believe the book indicates it's best plugged in when not in use as well.

When you go to a dealership, you'll probably see cords going to all of the inventory. That should say something.

Thanks so much for the help.

I plan on using it everyday like this so thats where the constant discharging - charging concern came in.

Everyday I will go to the post office, 15 mins, then it stays in the garage till the next day when I go to the post office.

So basically, I dont have to worry about it, and can do whatever, but the danger lies if the battery gets to low while off the charger,

Thanks again

Force

KSagal

03-13-2007, 12:57 AM

My impression is just a bit different.

I think of it as similar to an oil change. I know people who swear by changing their oil every 2000 miles. I know others who are just as convinced that the interval should be every 3000 miles. I usually use a combo of the Jiffy lube sticker and the computer in the dashboard.

There are many factors that will affect the correct answer, and you will not get a direct failure because of a single break in the patern.

Whether or not you charge your battery this way or that, or change your oil at this interval or that, I believe that you need to keep to a consistant pattern, that it should be better to go a little too often rather than a little too late...

The factory and the engineers suggest that you keep it plugged in when not in use, and that is good enough for me...

forcelite

03-16-2007, 12:14 AM

Sharkie

03-16-2007, 03:10 AM

I have decided for short trips I will wait till I use one bar or so as long as I dont let it sit off the charger for more than 48 hours.

This approach will cost me less charging cycles and still not let the battery fall very much.

I expect at least 2 more years of good battery performance using this method.

We will see

Force

So, while Segway says to plug the machine in whenever it's not in use, you feel you know more about it, and are going to disregard that advice? You are NOT going to get more life out of your batteries this way, and at worst, if something happens and you don't get back to the machine in time, you could well ruin your batteries. I don't get it, perhaps I'm not seeing something here. For the couple of cents a week you might pay to keep it plugged in all the time, and the fact that not charging the batteries all the time could allow them to get out of balance, (which can easily ruin otherwise good batteries) you have decided to risk a very expensive set of batteries for some perceived idea that this will make them last longer? It doesn't make any sense to me, but I guess it must to you. Perhaps you could explain it to me? Two years is WELL within the realms of easy when you consider that the company that makes the batteries claims that after 1000 cycles, they should still have 95% of their capacity. If you were to drain the batteries FULLY and recharge them every day you would get almost 3 years!! Perhaps you realize the potential for problems, and that's why you are only expecting 2 years from your batteries.

Jim

forcelite

03-16-2007, 11:30 AM

I do not expect to get 1000 cycles out of these lith batts, if I do great.

Every battery I have ever owned in laptops, powertools, cell phones, follow the same pattern. I know they say there is no memory loss in liths, but laptop after laptop with liths have had longer battery life by using the battery to as much as possible (even if it takes a few days) and then charging them up to finish 1 complete cycle. My wife does the opposite and charges it after she has sent an email from the couch or spent only 10 minutes on it, and thus completes a "short cycle". My batteries last longer than hers time, after time, after time.

I dont know if segway batts have some kind of technology that has escaped the eyes of Dell and Apple, but if they do then I could be completely wrong on this.

Basically I am using experience to guide my battery patterns. Like I said I will not leave them off for longer than 48 hours, so I dont worry about them droping to zero and havening dead batts.

Just my experience,
Force

Sharkie

03-16-2007, 01:12 PM

I see, I guess you didn't realize that Saphion batteries are a different chemistry than the lithium ion batteries you are using in your laptop etc. Saphions are rated by the manufacturer to have nominally 95% capacity after 1000 cycles. Regular lithiums nominally give 250 cycles with this type of capacity loss. In addition to that the charger used makes a tremendous difference to the life of the batteries. A lot of power tools, cell phones and laptops don't pay too much attention as to how well their chargers are performing or balancing the batteries. The Segway charger is in the packs, and works quite a bit better than most, so it's pretty unlikely that it will damage your packs either. In any case, if you want warranty coverage on the batteries, it could be denied if you don't follow the recommended charging method.

Jim

hellphish

03-16-2007, 02:45 PM

Indeed, previous experience with completely different batteries doesn't count for much.

BringOnI2

03-16-2007, 03:12 PM

It's just like trusting the Segway to balance itself. Trust the Segway to conserve the batteries best by keeping it plugged in :)

forcelite

03-16-2007, 05:38 PM

Allot of good info here, I will reconsider my charging habits.

Force

drmarty

03-16-2007, 06:19 PM

The cycles are a much less discrete thing than we are possibly making them out to be. It is not like 1000 cycles and 2000 half cycles and 4000 quarter cycles. Essentially the specifications of the batteries is of interest to Valance, the battery manufacturer, and Segway, the battery user. The buyer, Segway, would use them to decide on whether to use Valence's batteries or A123's which are the same chemistry (or very similar.) They also use them to "grade" batteries. You will find two batteries from the same manufacturer with similar specifications except for number of cycles and of course the battery with a higher number of cycles would be a "better" battery and cost more.

For us, the best policy is - as has been alluded to and even said bluntly - follow Segway's advice. Unless you really are knowledgeable about batteries and their chemistries and charging, etc. - ie a battery engineer, then you would be foolish to do otherwise (or at least admit it.)

The very fact that you do not know that these are very different from laptop batteries indicates you should not experiment very much. Just follow the instructions. Segway isn't trying to sell you batteries. They want to sell Segways. They want the best overall performance.

Having said that, I think some people have been overly scared about their batteries running down if they don't "keep them plugged in." They seem to think they will go flat in a week or two. These are Lithium batteries with essentially zero self discharge and therefore whatever circuitry is used to surveil the infokey and possibly the battery protection circuit itself would be the only drain. With 2 4.0 ampere hour batteries they would last a long time before getting into a dangerous area. Also someone said something about the batteries discharging enough to hurt themselves. I doubt that. Valance is a good enough company with good enough engineers to have a low voltage cutoff to prevent this. Once it gets to a certain voltage it would cutoff all external drain and would need to be charged. So while I keep mine plugged in when I'm not riding it, I wouldn't lose a seconds sleep about it being unplugged, probably for a month or more. (Hmmm should I do the test? But then I couldn't ride it. Nah.)

OK bring it on.

Marty

Sharkie

03-16-2007, 08:35 PM

Actually Marty, there were some Gen 1 machines that had a problem where if they weren't left on the charger, they DID drain the batteries beyond the point of charging in a couple or 3 weeks. I have seen at least 2 cases of this exact thing happening, one with an XT one with a GT. It's a real possibility, not imagined, so erring on the side of caution is a good idea, especially when you consider the cost of charging versus the cost of replacement.

Jim

KSagal

03-16-2007, 08:51 PM

Research is a wonderful thing. Someone should do some on this very forum...

When the LiIions were first released, as an upgrade battery for the 180s and older machines that were out at the time, it is a well documented and discussed issue that some of them were in fact failing after being unplugged for relatively short periods of time. (Weeks or less)

The cause was declared to be that some of the polling voltages in the handlebar circuitry could drain only one battery, and cause enough of an imbalance that a fatal error would develope.

I don't know the details. I do know that it did exist. A better researcher, or someone with a better memory should weigh in with more or corrected details...

Again I say, Segway says to keep the machines plugged in when not in use. I see no reason to question this...

I also want to weigh in that this is the simplest good advice. That does not mean it is the absolute best advice. Segway has presented a simple generic plan that fits all segways.

I again go back to the oil change analysis. If you want a one-size-fits-all solution, than it is to plug in all the time, or to change your oil every 2000 or 3000 miles. The last several cars I owned have had the owners manual say that oil should be changed at 7500 miles if the car is primarily driven on the highway. Had I said that I change my oil at 7500 miles most would tell me that I am not doing my car good, yet that is from the manufacturer... That same manufacturer says that if you drive primarily in the city, 3000 miles is more appropriate. Again, one size that fits all is the lower number...

I choose to follow the advise of the engineers at segway. I also know that a more comprehensive study may be made by someone else, that may say if you do this, you should charge this way, if you do that, you should charge that way...

It is possible to love segways, and respect the segway corporation, and still ask who made the cool-aide.

cruiter

03-17-2007, 10:30 AM

Most of us pay upwards of $5000 for our machines. It costs a very few cents a day to keep them plugged in when not riding/gliding. New Batterys are $1600 a pair retail. I don't understand why some folks think they know more than Inc and feel safe just charging when they think it's needed :confused: .

My two cents (battery charge cost)!!! For two cents, mine's plugged in.

Jim

Again I say, Segway says to keep the machines plugged in when not in use. I see no reason to question this...

I choose to follow the advise of the engineers at segway.

hellphish

03-17-2007, 07:23 PM

Most of us pay upwards of $5000 for our machines. It costs a very few cents a day to keep them plugged in when not riding/gliding. New Batterys are $1600 a pair retail. I don't understand why some folks think they know more than Inc and feel safe just charging when they think it's needed :confused: .

My two cents (battery charge cost)!!! For two cents, mine's plugged in.

Jim

You answered your own question. Batteries are $1600 a pair, and some people want to do everything in their power to put off buying another pair. It seems the only reason people wouldn't want to follow the manufacturer's advice is because they have some idea in their head that whatever they are doing is increasing the longevity.

KSagal

03-17-2007, 07:39 PM

It is also worth noting that the first sets to LiIons that came out are not the same as those currently for sale...

The original battery packs offered (1st generation LiIon batteries) did not have a low-voltage cut-out circuit. They did have the opportunity to fall victim to a series of events that could be fatal, including a particular amount of current draw, and being unplugged for a couple weeks.

14.2 software, and other factors have been modified, at least to my understanding, so this is no longer a major problem.

The battery packs that are currently for sale, and those that are on all gen 2 machines, do have a low voltage monitor circuit, which protects it from this problem.

So there you have it. It was a real problem. It is not one now, if you are buying new or current. If you are buying used, and it is not current with it's software, it may still be a consideration. If the previous owner was appropriately diligent in his/maintenance then you still have no problem. If they were not, it might be prudent to at least ask...

RAG1247

03-17-2007, 08:20 PM

gen1 lithiums can be upgraded to the current gen2 lithiums

KSagal

03-18-2007, 12:24 AM

It was my understanding that the gen 1 lithiums which started out not being compatable for gen 2 machines, can be upgraded to be useable in the gen 2 machines, but that the chip with the low voltage cut-off circuit cannot be added.

This makes them able to be used in the i2, x2, but not the same as the new batteries.

Since the battery problem was evident in gen 1 machines, this still leaves some exposure of gen one batteries in gen one machines, but not gen one batteries in gen two machines, nor gen 2 batteries in gen 1 machines.

Come to think of it, are gen 2 batteries compatible in gen 1 machies? I recall the discussion, but not the result.

Desert_Seg

03-18-2007, 02:06 AM

...Come to think of it, are gen 2 batteries compatible in gen 1 machies? I recall the discussion, but not the result.

Yes, fully compatible.

Steven

drmarty

03-18-2007, 02:50 PM

Well I said bring it on.

Karl, I would be surprised, no shocked and stunned if any lithium pack was ever released to the public without a low voltage cutoff. Now you have been at this longer than me (Segways, not batteries) and I would sure love to see the documentation about that. It flies in the face of reason. I am sorry to question it so much but every little camcorder battery and single cell cell phone battery has these circuits. I have taken them all apart and seen them. I have not taken a Segway pack apart - yet. Now could there have been a problem? That is possible and likely. But no circuit? I would be appalled and questioning many things. To include oversight by Segway engineers.

Sharkie says "I have seen at least 2 cases of this exact thing happening, one with an XT one with a GT."

Well I would submit that is not the fault he thinks it is. I would submit it is a bad pack. Or all of the Segways should go dead in 2 weeks.

People have their minds fairly solidly made up on this issue. I know I do. So be it. We can run this around and around but are merely massaging our egos.

Valance is not likely to say "Yeah, our cells were no good." And we don't know who designed the circuitry inside the packs (probably Valance) or who signed off on it at Segway. And of course they keep all this info close to their chests as "Proprietary." Remember the recall and how hard it was to get info? Now I understand and even agree with keeping a lot of that info to themselves and maybe even with a disinformation campaign. In other words putting out info to spin it in the best way possible from their eyes.

And if my $1600 Lithium packs ran down in 2 weeks if off the charger, I would be demanding new ones. Something is wrong with them. The half of the infokey I wear on my wrist uses a coin cell that lasts for months! If the 4.0 Ah pack in the machine can't keep the other half of the Zigbee link going for two weeks then something is wrong.

By the way, I keep my machines all plugged in. The ones with NiMH and the 2 with Lithiums. I think the engineers at Segway led by Doug Field are geniuses. Except for letting the charge ports out two times with cover problems (luckily very minor on the i2) they are great and we should listen to them. Like I said unless you are a battery engineer and know more than them you would be hard pressed to find better advice. Except from me.

Good luck and keep gliding.

Marty
Remember this is all in good fun, folks.

Desert_Seg

03-18-2007, 03:44 PM

Marty,

Unfortunately it is your turn to be shocked and stunned. There was a problem with the initial series / batch of Li-Ions that caused them to drop below their recovery threshold, thereby damaging the battery. I have more than 15 pairs of bad batteries whose owners did not leave them plugged in and they killed their batteries. I know dealers with more pairs than I have so this wasn't an isolated problem.

Part of the problem (as I understand it) was that the draw from the handlebar was so low that over time it "snuck" past the on-board sensor. (please don't quote me on that though).

So, many Gen1 Li-Ion units ended up with bad batteries, all because their owners did not leave them plugged in.

Steven

ryan_walters

03-18-2007, 03:47 PM

Sharkie says "I have seen at least 2 cases of this exact thing happening, one with an XT one with a GT."

Well I would submit that is not the fault he thinks it is. I would submit it is a bad pack. Or all of the Segways should go dead in 2 weeks.

I think I know of the machines Sharkie's refering to. And I also think that the problem is more specific to the machine, and not the battery(s). Some machines (gen1?) with the CS cables attached, but the machine not plugged in, can drain the rear battery pack fairly fast. I don't know if this is only gen1's affected or not. The low voltage protection circuitry in the new batteries is a 'battery side' solution to the problem some machines have.

Even if gen2's are supposedly not affected (and I'm not saying they're not affected), leaving all segway's plugged in when possible is a good plan. It takes VERY little power. By my measurements, a PC plugged in, but turned OFF uses more power than a charged segway plugged in.

shep

03-18-2007, 04:06 PM

... By my measurements, a PC plugged in, but turned OFF uses more power than a charged segway plugged in.

I used a meter on my i180 with Lithium batteries and it takes 108Watts while charging and averages a 13 watt draw once full. It's a bit more than a PC not turned on or a high draw night light but not much. In my neck of the woods with tier III rates at $0.32/kwh, that amounts to about $0.10/day for me plus whatever it takes to recover from my glides (I'm still new, but it looks like the electricity I use from my glides will tally about 0.4kw/h per day).

PeteInLongBeach

03-18-2007, 06:33 PM

Marty,
There was a problem with the initial series / batch of Li-Ions that caused them to drop below their recovery threshold, thereby damaging the battery.
So, many Gen1 Li-Ion units ended up with bad batteries, all because their owners did not leave them plugged in.
Steven

Is there any way to visually tell which Li-Ion batteries were affected by this? Which were the "initial" batteries? I bought my i180 in February 2006, but who knows if this alone would indicate which series of batteries it has. Since buying my i2, I keep the i180 in storage in my RV for weekend trips out of town. Since hearing these warnings, I have been removing the control shaft if the machine is in storage more than a couple weeks. Still, it would be nice to know if I have the early Li Ions....

drmarty

03-18-2007, 06:48 PM

Sorry Steven,

If what you say is true then it is not my turn yet. I said "Karl, I would be surprised, no shocked and stunned if any lithium pack was ever released to the public without a low voltage cutoff."

A defect in the system is exactly what I said it was more likely to be. Karl said there was NO circuit - "did not have a low-voltage cut-out circuit" and my position is and was I find it illogical given the caliber of engineers we are working with. My statement was "Now could there have been a problem? That is possible and likely. But no circuit? I would be appalled and questioning many things. To include oversight by Segway engineers."

I stand by what I said, not that it makes any difference.

You said "So, many Gen1 Li-Ion units ended up with bad batteries, all because their owners did not leave them plugged in."

The error in your logic is that the because is because there was a faulty circuit or part or engineering. While yes you should keep them plugged in, they should not go to an unrecoverable voltage by leaving them unplugged for 2 weeks, for 10 weeks, for 10000 weeks. OK maybe 10000 weeks. But the point is there was a flaw that was Segway's responsiblity to fix and saying that it was the owners fault because they left them unplugged is putting the blame in the wrong place. Just because they say to keep them plugged in does not absolve them of the responsibility to make a merchantable product that can be used with normal care. There is no way the current draw should have "snuck" past the on board sensor. Or any such thing. The function of the safety circuit is to shut off - unhook - remove from all external drains if it falls to whatever level. You shouldn't have to leave them plugged in while you go on vacation. What if you are out of town, in Dubai on an extended business trip and the power goes out in your apartment? Should your belongings be ruined? Of course not. And although they may go dead if you leave them unplugged for a long time, they should not be ruined. Period. No matter what.

And Inc agrees with me as they replaced those "Bad" batteries whether they were plugged in or not.

Anyway, you get my point, I hope.

Marty
(Here's where I hope this is all taken in jest and good faith like it is meant.)

By the way I am still willing to buy and pay for shipping for some of those Bad Batteries. If there are so many out there you'd think I could get a few. But nooo.

drmarty

03-18-2007, 06:54 PM

Pete,

It isn't easier to run an extension cord? And keep it plugged in?

Oh, I bet your RV is stored elsewhere, like on a lot.

I sure wish I could find some old batteries. One thing I want to do is make a patch cord so you can plug your batteries in and measure the current draw like Pete is worried about. But I can't get any old batts.

Marty

cruiter

03-18-2007, 08:38 PM

If folks who know better than INC about their batterys and just charge them on occassion, you may have a shot at some old batts in the forseable future :D .Pete,

It isn't easier to run an extension cord? And keep it plugged in?

Oh, I bet your RV is stored elsewhere, like on a lot.

I sure wish I could find some old batteries. One thing I want to do is make a patch cord so you can plug your batteries in and measure the current draw like Pete is worried about. But I can't get any old batts.

Marty

KSagal

03-18-2007, 10:12 PM

Is there really that big a difference in "not having a low voltage circuit" and "not having a low voltage circuit that works" ?

I suspect that there are actually more than one way to provide this protection to a battery.

I also suspect that there is likely more than one circuit in a segway that does everything, as redundency seems to be their middle name.

Unfortunately, there was a problem with the first release of LiIons, and you can choose to believe it or not. You can choose to attack the messenger or not. You can choose to spin your own statements or not.

I am happy to correct my own statement in that there may have been many circuits in the original batteries that did not work, or those circuits may not have existed. I do not know, but I did acurately report that the results that one should expect from those protective circuits did not happen.

My personal bias, when it comes to the segway engineers, is that if they know of a thing, it has been addressed. If it has been addressed, it works. That is based on my opinion.

Because of that, I phrased the statement the way I did. I am also commonly maligned for not being direct, and for leaving wiggle room. I usually always ask for more technical types to correct my details.

If I assumed that a circuit did not exist, because I was told so, and because what that circuit should have done did not get done.

If another has decided without a single shred of evidence that the circuit did exist, that is their right. We all base our opinions on that which we believe to be so.

If another says they would be surprised, no shocked etc if what I said to be so turns out to be so, then another says that they felt that what I said was substancially correct, and the first says that they still do not believe it to be accurate, that is okay too.

I have not offered any facts. I have offered my understanding of what was the case, and I offer it now as my personal understanding, limited by the kinds of things that I understand.

I would think it reasonable to have an equal amount of people be shocked and amazed when I am correct, as to the amoung who proclaime that when I am wrong.

Slice it anyway you like, the world of segging, and the technology it depends upon, continue to evolve day by day, year by year. This type of spirited debate is part of that world, and is a very good thing...

I would love to meet up with Marty and debate with him who owes the first cognac... I decare here and now, the second one is on me!

Desert_Seg

03-18-2007, 11:51 PM

... I would love to meet up with Marty and debate with him who owes the first cognac... I decare here and now, the second one is on me!

Right after you and I have our promised Cognac(s)! But we all have to promise not to bring our Dremel tools. I think we all have a propensity to turn them on and start cutting...and after a few Cognacs and a discussion or two we might be even more "encouraged" to do so!

Steven

polo_pro

03-19-2007, 12:22 AM

OPTA - a beer and a polo mallet! Chug the first and then apply the second liberally to whatever need "opening"! 8^) 8^) 8^)

PeteInLongBeach

03-19-2007, 02:37 AM

Pete,

It isn't easier to run an extension cord? And keep it plugged in?

Oh, I bet your RV is stored elsewhere, like on a lot.

Marty

Right, the RV is stored in a lot with no electricity. So, I charge the segway before returning the RV to storage, then remove the CS for the duration. Kind of a pain. I did notice however that before I was advised to remove the CS for extended storage, I had let it sit for up to 3 weeks and the battery level didn't appear to go down much during that time. But given all the comments lately, I don't dare do that anymore.

KSagal

03-19-2007, 03:09 AM

Right after you and I have our promised Cognac(s)! But we all have to promise not to bring our Dremel tools. I think we all have a propensity to turn them on and start cutting...and after a few Cognacs and a discussion or two we might be even more "encouraged" to do so!

Steven

I am good with the above. One of my goals lately is to have markers all over the world for good company and fine food and drink to both pay off, and collect.

drmarty

03-19-2007, 03:37 AM

from Karl -
Is there really that big a difference in "not having a low voltage circuit" and "not having a low voltage circuit that works" ?

from Marty -
Yes.

K -
I suspect that there are actually more than one way to provide this protection to a battery.

M -
Yes

K -
I also suspect that there is likely more than one circuit in a segway that does everything, as redundency seems to be their middle name.

M -
I suspect you mean something else. I don't think there is even one circuit that does everything.

K -
Unfortunately, there was a problem with the first release of LiIons, and you can choose to believe it or not. You can choose to attack the messenger or not. You can choose to spin your own statements or not.

M -
That was unfortunate that there was a problem. That was my point. There was a problem with the packs and therefore leaving them unplugged was immaterial. Leaving them unplugged merely pointed out the problem, it didn't cause it. The problem was there whether you left them unplugged or not.

Karl, I've told you before to never never never take what I say seriously. I am attacking no-one and don't intend to (unless it seems like fun.)

And I am flumoxed by your calling it spin to point out what you said. To quote you exactly. YOU then try to make your statement fit your arguement by saying you think it is no different than when you add 2 words - "that works"

It is a huge difference between there being absolutely NO circuit and there being a circuit that is faulty and does not perform it's job. One says the engineers at Valance and the engineers at Segway are so dumb they didn't even put in the most basic feature of a lithium battery pack. The second says that they did their job and there was a problem. That happens. Maybe a circuit acted diferently than it was designed to or maybe the parts used in production were different than those used in prototyping. Or a million and one things. There would be no excuse for engineers of their stature (or any stature) to leave out the circuit but many reasons why it might malfunction.

K -
My personal bias, when it comes to the segway engineers, is that if they know of a thing, it has been addressed. If it has been addressed, it works. That is based on my opinion.

M -
?? That seems to be circular. Your bias is based on your opinion. You are a big man. Most of us won't admit that. I know I won't. My opinion is biased, however. Is that different?

I now become lost in the He whos and the one that and the if anothers and can't follow the thread. I have not provided any proof nor can I. (Not without some batteries to - oh never mind)

You started out by saying, not hinting, or suggesting, but saying there was no circuit. That seemed to me akin to saying they did not perform their "due diligence," did not do their job and I (like you say above, I think) was pointing out I couldn't, didn't, and still don't feel that to be the case. I think it could have been many things like bad cells shorting out or going open and bringing down the packs and unrelated to the protection circuit. Maybe they had protection but weren't balancing the packs and got into trouble that way. I doubt we will ever know.

I stand by my opinion. I will bet you a Steak Dinner with that Cognac against a Mars bar that there was a low voltage protection circuit in those packs. That was my point. That is my point. If there was no circuit in there then you will be eating well on me.

Remember folks, this is an exercise in logic, thinking, writing and we are all on the same side. Except for John.

Marty
I'm Kidding - Ha Ha.

ryan_walters

03-19-2007, 04:48 AM

I used a meter on my i180 with Lithium batteries and it takes 108Watts while charging and averages a 13 watt draw once full. It's a bit more than a PC not turned on or a high draw night light but not much. In my neck of the woods with tier III rates at $0.32/kwh, that amounts to about $0.10/day for me plus whatever it takes to recover from my glides (I'm still new, but it looks like the electricity I use from my glides will tally about 0.4kw/h per day).

What kind of meter did you use? A simple inline amp-meter? If so, then it's 13VA, and not 13 watts. I've measured my i2 with a kill-a-watt, that gives the following: volts, amps, watts, VA, Hz, PF (power factor), Kw/Hours, and Hours. I remember 2-4 watts, with a very LOW PF, giving high VA. You're only charged for watts, so VA means very little.

I also remember checking my computer. Running it uses anywhere from 160-240 watts. Off, it was at least 10 watts. I'd have to check it again.

The VA vs Watts thing has been discussed before, see this thread. (http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?p=132907#post132907)

RAG1247

03-19-2007, 01:50 PM

some more possibly helpful info:

The Gen II batteries include circuitry to prevent over discharging. The Gen I batteries do not have such feature and cannot be used on Gen II units without an upgrade. The upgrade makes Gen 1 lithium batteries useable with Gen II units but the over discharging circuitry is not part of the upgrade and apparently cannot be added (with this in mind it would appear that upgraded gen 1 lithium batteries should be kept on charge continuously).

Gen II batteries can be used on Gen I and Gen II units (so long as software is 12.1 or higher for gen 1 units)

Gen I batteries that have been upgraded and can be used on gen 2 units are rev A4. Gen2 batteries are revision AF. Gen 2 batteries are part number 20967-00001.

forcelite

03-19-2007, 02:23 PM

Does anyone have a ballpark date when the batteries received the necessary improvements? Or are all gen 1 liths the same deal?

Force

RAG1247

03-19-2007, 02:39 PM

Does anyone have a ballpark date when the batteries received the necessary improvements? Or are all gen 1 liths the same deal?

Force

it is my understanding that if you received an I180 with lithiums, they are gen1 lithiums or if you ordered loose lithiums prior to the august 18 release of gen 2 units that such lithiums are also gen 1.

I have 2 I180 with lithiums that are gen1- about 3 months before introduction of gen 2 units, I bought a spare set of lithiums which turned out to be gen 1 lithiums which I had segway upgrade for use on gen 2 units. My gen 1 units on the I180's cannot be used on my 2 I2's unless i have them updated.

shep

03-19-2007, 03:03 PM

What kind of meter did you use?

I have two meters.

A "Watts Up?" which, according to the documentation, records RMS power which supposedly includes the power factor. Google "Watts Up" for details. When I unplugged it, it had accumulated 115 hours and 2.51kw/h, but that included the charges after the glides I had done.

I also have a GE I170 CL 200 (http://www.hialeahmeter.com/meters.html). For 5 years I drove an electric car (that's a different story) and to satisfy my curiosity, I purchased and hooked up that meter ahead of the EV charger. Sad to say the EV has been gone since '03 and I've since removed the charger and installed some simple 110 and 220 outlets in its place (the charger needed a 220V/40A circuit, why waste that?). I have used those outlets to occasionally power some of the tools in my garage. Today I plugged the Seqway into one of those outlets. The meter only records in whole kwh (it's too hard to read any partial kwh), so I'll report back in a week or two with some results.

KSagal

03-19-2007, 04:03 PM

It seems to me, that Richard has posted a similar statement to that which got me in so much hot water...

I do recall that I was told there was a circuit in the newer batteries that was not in the older ones. I posted that.

It is quite possible that the statement is too simple. I do not know where Richard got his information, but his research is usually VERY good. Still, it may have been spun before he got there...

Marty expressed confusion as to why I call some things spin. I will define my understanding of Spin now:

If a person reacts to my words in anyway that I do not expect them to, or tries to confuse me with facts, (Even those that I presented) then it is spin. If a person reacts to the words I use, instead of the idea I was trying to present, it is spin. If a person says anything at all about what I said, instead of what I thought, it is spin...

If the preceding paragraph is not well received, you will likely be in step with the rest of the world. I get very few people to agree, so I have gotten to the point where I ask people to tolerate. It is faster...

In stepping bact to some previous semantics...

The fault of due-diligence may have been mine. I did recall that I was told there was no low voltage (Over discharge?) circuit in those batteries, but I did not do the research to find that confirmed. I believe it is possible that was said, when what was meant was that there was no low voltage (over discharge?) Protection. This would account for the disparagy.

As for my admitting that my bias is based on my opinions trumping other factors, that is just the way it is. Most people are the same, and the rest lie about it. I love a person who proclaims to be completely objective, as that does not exist. Surely there is a possibility to be more balanced or more biased, but the human mind is not capable of true objectivity. Of course, this is my opinion, but to refute it would be spin...

As far as good food, good drink, good company, a good whack (That one is for Plo) or the opportunity to take something apart to support continuing a spirited debate, I am up for that at any time, in any place!

ryan_walters

03-19-2007, 11:43 PM

A "Watts Up?"

Nothing, just watching the game, having a bud.....

Just kidding. That seems even more capable that the one I'm using. Mine doesn't keep track of duty cycle.

I'll have to check my i2 again in standby. Maybe the gen2's are different in maintenance mode charge. I wouldn't think so, but who knows.

drmarty

03-22-2007, 01:58 AM

Ryan,

Do you mean the Gen II machine or the Gen II Lithiums?

'Cause the charge circuit is in the pack, I believe (I have never taken one apart, hint hint) and therefore the action would be machine independant.

They tend to husband information to a degree that is frustrating. We are told the new battery packs are different. Yeah? And? How so? Wouldn't it be nice to know?

Oh well.

Marty

ryan_walters

03-22-2007, 02:07 AM

Maybe I did mean Gen2 batteries. I do remember my I2 plugged in maintanence charge mode not using a lot of power. Don't remember exactly how much (or little) though.

ryan_walters

03-23-2007, 10:18 PM

I do remember my I2 plugged in maintanence charge mode not using a lot of power. Don't remember exactly how much (or little) though.

I have readings of power used during maintanence charge. The segway was fully charged already. I then unplugged it, and plugged it back in through a kill-a-watt I have. After appx 1 min of 'normal' charge at around 110 watts, it dropped back to 'standby' charge. This was normally 1 or 2 watts. Briefly there would be a 10-20 watt 'spike' in draw. Some averaging over time was needed. After 40 hours and 20 minutes of accumulating watt hours used, I got this:

http://forums.segwaychat.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14836/killawatt_kwh.JPG http://forums.segwaychat.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14836/killawatt_time.JPG

That means 160 watt hours (0.16kwh) used over 40 hours 20 min (40.33 hours)

Average power draw of 3.97 watts. 4 watts is close enough for me. This is also including the initial minute or so of 110 watt draw. Shouldn't affect it much as I only get readings every 10 watt hours (0.01 kwh).

Power factor was below 0.5 as well, meaning current X voltage will be at least double what you actually get charged for.

A longer time period test would be better. But using 4 watts average draw, a month is going to run 2.88 kw/h. Electricity here is currently (no pun intended) 8.6c/kwh. Monthly price to leave segway plugged in: $0.25. If shep pays 32c/kwh, monthly price is $0.92.

Isidore

03-24-2007, 11:50 AM

Wow! your electricity is cheap! We pay about twice that. On the basis of our electricity and fuel prices, a seg does about 750 miles/US gallon in the UK....

ryan_walters

03-24-2007, 03:04 PM

I calculated a segways 'mileage' here in Canada. Using UK gallons because I know what my car gets in miles per UK gallon. Gas is more expensive here then in the US. Electricity is cheaper here then the US average. And imperial (uk) gallons are slightly bigger than us gallons.

All of that adds up. Last time I figured it out, it was 1400 mpg. My car in comparison does about 44 mpg on the highway. Around 30 or so in the city.

cruiter

03-24-2007, 05:12 PM

KSagal

03-24-2007, 05:52 PM

Great gas mileage on your car. Did your calibration factor in how many full charge cycles you could reasonably expect and cost of batterys when batterys start to fail (based on todays $1600 per set)? If not, that could make a serious dent in the figures but should still be good mileage.

I believe that was 44 miles per imperial gallon. ( I believe that an imperial gallon is about 20-25% more than a US gallon.)

I think the problem with factoring in the amount of cycles and the cost of replacement of those batteries would bring the numbers out of sync.

In standard term, when an automobile is said to ge 25 mpg or 50mpg, it does not generally figure in the cost of the oil change, or the tires, or the clutch which is rated at 100K miles, etc... It surely does not figure the replacement cost of the car...

Years ago, when I paid for the expenses on cars that my engineers used to go from client to client for, I used a service. I believe the service was called 'Runtsheimer's'. They would figure regional gas costs, maintenance costs, average lifespans of major components, and average replacement costs for certain classes of cars...

If my memory serves me well, these numbers are from the late 80's, the costs broke down to penies per mile... I think that it went to something like...

1.2 to 2 cents per mile for gas
1 cent per mile for consumeables (tires, wipers, brakes)
1 cent per mile for oil and maintenance costs
1.5 to 2 cents per mile for replacement of the Major conponents.

This usually brought the cost of operation to between 4 to 6 cents per mile. Reimbursment was usually about 8 cents or so, which allowed for the replacement of the car and other expenses...

Of course, cars were cheaper then, as was just about everything else...

I do recall that our goal was always to keep our expenses under a nickel, and we would make money at under 4 cents...

Figure this in anyway you like, but it is a more comprehensive starting point for a realistic comparison.

Remember, unless you use very large amounts of average costs, you are only speaking anecdotally. I have known people who by identical cars at about the same time, and have extreamly different experiences...

ryan_walters

03-24-2007, 05:57 PM

No, but then I didn't figure in maintenance to my car either. Valence says > 90% capacity after 1000 discharges (80% dod). Should be quite a few years before the batteries start to wear out. I think batteries at most every 5 years would still be less cost than maintaining a car. Maybe not a NEW car, but then a new car costs way more than $5,000 that the segway did.

Yes, my car does ok. It's a 1990 Accord, so considering it's age, it's pretty good. That is miles per imperial gallon too, not US gallon.

shep

03-24-2007, 06:24 PM

1.2 to 2 cents per mile for gas

That seems awfully cheap to me for the late '80s. Did you get your fuel via wholesale perhaps? Gasoline (avg all grades) was selling for around $1 in the late 80's (reference (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb0524.html)) and even at 44m/(us)g that would be 2.2 cents/mile. If you could do 1.2 cents, you must have been getting real cheap gas or exceptional mileage. How'd you do that?

KSagal

03-24-2007, 06:35 PM

That seems awfully cheap to me for the late '80s. Did you get your fuel via wholesale perhaps? Gasoline (avg all grades) was selling for around $1 in the late 80's (reference (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb0524.html)) and even at 44m/(us)g that would be 2.2 cents/mile. If you could do 1.2 cents, you must have been getting real cheap gas or exceptional mileage. How'd you do that?

YOur numbers sound better than my memory... Maybe we were doing our best to keep just the gas cost below that 4 or 5 cent mark, which would be 20 to 25 mpg on a $ 1.00 gallon... Then if the rest added up to another 4 cents or so, it would completely cover the 8 or so cents from Runtzheimers...

cruiter

03-24-2007, 08:50 PM

It really wasn't a "critical" factor in my decision to get my i2. But the better range and life on the new batterys really helped make it. Knock on wood, I seem to be having good luck with mine right out of the box. I rode 10 miles in Roswell a couple of weeks ago, and used 3 bars. When it was colder, I wen't 15 on half of them. But-----I only weigh 140+. But I also usually ride 10-12mph and up and down some pretty good hills. I'm looking forward to several years with the originals. As of today, 262 miles. I may wear out the tires 1st :).

Jim

BTW, gets plugged in after every glide and stays that way till next one !!!

No, but then I didn't figure in maintenance to my car either. Valence says > 90% capacity after 1000 discharges (80% dod). Should be quite a few years before the batteries start to wear out. I think batteries at most every 5 years would still be less cost than maintaining a car. Maybe not a NEW car, but then a new car costs way more than $5,000 that the segway did.

Yes, my car does ok. It's a 1990 Accord, so considering it's age, it's pretty good. That is miles per imperial gallon too, not US gallon.