What do you guys think about battery repacking?

[forcelite]

I have used battery repacking services to get old laptops and expensive hand tools going again. I wonder if anyone here has considered sending their batteries to be repacked.

Thanks
Force

[Dragan]

these are different beasts...I really doubt a battery repacking service would have any success (certainly no experience) with Seg batteries. I know I wouldn't risk it, nor would I ride 2 feet on a set of them
Just my .02Cents
Wayne

[Sal]

... What is battery repacking?

-Sal

[wwhopper]

I would think with many of us, our battery casings would be pretty beat up. I know the used batteries that we have in the shop that still are usable, often are pretty beat up.

After all the batteries are the first thing to get hit when you jump something at the wrong angle, or run over something that is higher than the segs clearance.

I would bet that this might be an emerging market, but there would have to be more Segway sales to support it. I would think tooling up repacking the batteries would be an expensive start up cost.

On saftey, I would think there would have to be oversight, who would certify that it was done to OEM specs? Does the hand tool manufacturer do it or the battery manufacturer?

[Zorba9]

by our old friend Rich (W9KFO) who was our resident battery guru. He wrote the first battery FAQ on the nimh's. He was also the first one here to swap tires on the Gen 1 rims with the knobby Michelin "Star-X-Minis" of which I use as duallies on my hunting E-167.
He cracked open the battery cases and found the bad cells (that were in bundles of 6?) replaced the bad bundle with good ones from other bad batteries he had cracked. He was succesfull in creating new, good servicable
batteries. At the time I believe he was of the opinion that all the effort really wasn't worth the gain. That will certainly change if/when LLC quits selling nimh's. We haven't heard from Rich in a good while, if you're still around Rich let us know what you think!

KOG

[SEGsby]

*Voice over*

We've secretly replaced these Lithium-Phosphate cells with cheaper Lithium-Colbalt ones.

Lets see if they notice the difference...

*BOOM!*

SEGsby

...
On saftey, I would think there would have to be oversight, who would certify that it was done to OEM specs? Does the hand tool manufacturer do it or the battery manufacturer?

[KSagal]

Segsby said it...

The NiMH batteries themselves were off the shelf technology put into a smart box. As long as the smarts are still working, the off the shelf techno batteries can be replaced.

The LiIons are a different kind of technology in the battery itself. Since it is not an off the shelf lithium battery, it would be a harder project to replace. I do not believe that segways are the only ones using a lithium polimer battery, so it may be possible, but many factors conspire to make it not economically feasable. If it were, I beleve there may be room to make it work...

New battery technology comes out all the time, and the costs are very high for Segway batteries, so I believe that if enough are sold, it will just be a matter of time before some guy in a trench coat is trying to sell a knockoff...

[forcelite]

Thanks for all the replies.

I have a good guy here in So. Cal that does all types of NiMH repacking. When I get a hold of a segway and need it repacked ( I am going to buy a used one so might be sooner than later) I will comment on the outcome and give details to whomever wants them. I agree that safety and precision is needed in repacking, but that is what this guy does, so I have confidence that it will go smoothly. Currently some of the laptop and highway measuring gadget batteries are pretty hi-tech.

Thanks
Force

[SegwayDan]

I think this is acutely irresponsible.

Repacking Segway batteries cannot be compared on the same level with other devices. The explosive characteristics of some litium chemistry aside, even if you're entertaining repacking the NiMH batteries you're putting at risk the operational integrity of the machine.

Though one could argue that there'd be the second battery to fall back on, I wouldn't want to trust that either.

It's not just that it may quit running unpredictably; such an incident could occur at a most inopportune time with the result of causing a traffic accident or a fall or collision involving someone's injury or death.

You also risk smearing the repute of the safety record of Segways in general.

All this for the sake of saving a couple hundred bucks or so.

You'd be far better off saving money by simply buying a pair of used batteries.

If you ignore this advice you're being penny wise and pound foolish.

[Desert_Seg]

... If you ignore this advice you're being penny wise and pound foolish.

Dan,

While this statement may turn out to be true, I am interested in seeing what can be done on the repacking the batteries. There is true value to this experiment and could result in a beneficial result for all Segway owners.

I'm sure that folks who first repacked laptop batteries got the same reaction. Now there are more than a few companies that do this. I'm also sure Dean got the same reactions when he first talked about the Segway. If he had stopped, where would we be now?

Let's see what this experiment leads to. Hopefully lots of good.

Steven

[SegwayDan]

Well perhaps, but I still detest all this "price squirming" and the unusual "solutions."

This penchant for "cheapness" has opened a Pandora's box which has inside all sorts of icky things: inflation, disappearing jobs, skyrocketing debt, socialism, etc., etc.

The more rational "make more money" solution would close that same box.

[forcelite]

gave the repacker some info on these batteries and he would be surprised if the price was more than $300.

Many times the cells are the onlythings that are bad, not the electronics. He would reuse the electronics, thus leading to huge savings. Also NiMH cells have been around for awhile so there is no premium on the cells themselves. This could pan out to be a great savings for segway users. Like I said I will report shortly.

He will not rebuild any electronic boards if that is what you are worried about.

Thanks for all the good info,

Force

[KSagal]

I am generally a good company man, but here I have to say, there is room for some quality exploration...

Some things need to be considered. First, Segway Inc. does not make batteries. A different company has been doing it for some time, I have thought. Of course, I could be wrong.

Next, good engineering is good engineering. Segway Inc. is a good company, and very diligent, but that does not mean that there are only good engineers at segway, and all others are hacks. It actually is possible to have good engineering done somewhere other than Bedford, NH.

The batteries themselves do not need to be redesigned, nor re-engineered. They just need to be repacked. I liken this to getting new tires. I did not try to re-engineer anything, just looked for well engineered tires to replace the well engineered but worn out tires I had.

While it is true that the segway reputation may suffer if someone takes a safety shortcut, that is true if someone does not take one, and makes a foolish operating mistake instead. Everything on a segway will be under the microscope for a while, regardless.

Would I personally glide on repacked batteries? If I am assured that they were done well, and I believe them. Have we not all had battery problems already, of one sort or another? Face it, the batteries and their record of faultless operation is not Segway's best chapter.

As far as perfect engineering only being possible from Segway Inc, I would remind people that my charge port used to fall open, and have lights under the cord. I moved it long ago, but more importantly, it falls closed now, not open. (And the LEDs are on top) Both that port orientation and the gen 1 parking stand came from engineers at Segway Inc. I now have a parking stand on my e-167 that was engineered in england, has a nice foot that is more stable, is stronger metal alloy, and has not been replaced or broken since I put it on. Can segway engineers say that about theirs?

Do not get me wrong, I am really impressed with both the quality of the work done in the engineering department as Segway Inc, and the workmanship, I just am not blind to the fact that others can occationally do it right as well.

Oh yeah... I am an engineer as well.... Oops. I guess that makes me biased. Well, I am. And I do not consider myself nearly as good as the guys at segway, but I have met a reasonable technocrat or two in the last several decades...


I am curious to see what is out there, or will be...

[BillPaxton]

Some things need to be considered. First, Segway Inc. does not make batteries. A different company has been doing it for some time, I have thought. Of course, I could be wrong.

I completely agree with Karl - My iPod battery (also NiMH) lived for a year, and it would hold a charge for 40-50 minutes at its best...simple experimentation led me to a new battery that lasts for several hours without manipulating the electronics in any way....just because inc didn't find the best or the cheapest battery means nothing - we all love our Segs, but the battery was outsourced.

BTW -Apple wanted $60 to replace the battery - I replaced it for $5

[ryan_walters]

I do not believe that segways are the only ones using a lithium polimer battery,


Just a minor correction, the segway uses a (safe) variant of Lithium Ion, not Lithium Polymer. LiPo cells are rectangular 'pouches' for lack of better term, that are reletively soft. LiIon cells are all, as far as I know, round cylindrical cells, and much harder cased.

Found some images:

Lithium Polymer:
http://www.batteries.com/images/256x256/16344.jpg

Lithium Ion Phosphate (Saphion):
http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/4/3/2/3/a563330-150-10b.jpg



RE: Rebuilding Segway Lithium packs. Certainly possible, but you'd have to find a really good price on the Saphion cells. All I can find online is between (US) $8-$10 PER CELL. Since each 'pack' has 96 cells in it, that would be $768 per pack for just the cells. Aren't LiIon packs around (US) $750 ea? and $1500 for a pair? I know they're (CDN) $995 each pack.

If you could get cells for $2 a piece, then it would be possible, but still a LOT of work. Especially considering the packs don't come apart easily. That's a lot of (tricky) soldering, or spot welding if one has access to that.

Probably not worth it if a pack has been 'worn' out from normal use. Repairing over discharged packs is different, but you'd still have to get into the pack. Which if I remember right, on NiMh at least, involved cutting the plastic.

[BillPaxton]

I'm still on NiMH on both i167s, just saving up for the big hit which is coming probably within the next 6 months - but facing $2400 for two sets (and having to upgrade the software which I don't want to do) is ugly compaired to $600 to repack if its doable and put the rest towards the i2 fund! My ipod mini original battery is a NiMH, but unlike the segway it doesn't care about switching to Li-ion
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/icarus256/li-ionIMG_0401.jpg:

Lithium Polymer:
http://www.batteries.com/images/256x256/16344.jpg

[forcelite]

I think NiMH is going to be the cheapest route for repacking, not Lithium Ion. Because these are older and more abundant.

[BillPaxton]

I think NiMH is going to be the cheapest route for repacking, not Lithium Ion. Because these are older and more abundant.
please do keep us posted, I would rather have 4 sets of repacked NiMHs for the same price as one set of LiIons!! And who knows, maybe I will be volunteering as a guinnea pig for you soon!

[Stan671]

Everybody must keep in mind that the Segway batteries do not just pop apart with a screwdriver. The case is vibration welded to make a super strong and complete seal where the plastics are merged. The only way to open a pack is to do major surgery on the case with a dremel tool.

So, when finished with the repackaging, the battery pack will certainly not be anywhere near as sturdy and protected from dirt/water as before. Dirt and especailly water would be a terrible thing to get inside there with all of that voltage and current capability.

Personally, I will pass on the repackaging.

[SegwayDan]

Clear vision well stated.

[SEGsby]

Nothing a little epoxy can't fix... ;)

SEGsby

Everybody must keep in mind that the Segway batteries do not just pop apart with a screwdriver. The case is vibration welded to make a super strong and complete seal where the plastics are merged. The only way to open a pack is to do major surgery on the case with a dremel tool.

So, when finished with the repackaging, the battery pack will certainly not be anywhere near as sturdy and protected from dirt/water as before. Dirt and especailly water would be a terrible thing to get inside there with all of that voltage and current capability.

Personally, I will pass on the repackaging.

[martinbogo]

Epoxy will never come close to the bond the plastic weld has. There are quite a few things to consider when dealing with "cell repacking":


Cell chemistry (LiION vs Saphion Lithium)
Battery discharge curve matching (for 96 cells!)
Battery built-in charger, firmware, and charging tables


I am working on ways to double the range of my new i2. One of the things I considered is making two offboard LiION packs, and mounting them on the cargo holders. However, the batteries have onboard computers themselves, as part of the charging system, which communicates back into two onboard computers of the Segway.

So, the idea of making my own external battery pack, at least without the direct help of the Segway engineering team, is right out. On the other hand, I have switched my focus to mounting two standard battery packs and building a switch out of an old (broken) external charger and cables. This will let me piggyback a second set of batteries with a bit of modification and switch from a drained set to the fresh set.

Not an ideal solution .. however, all my attempts to broach the subject of making an extended range Segway with the parent company have been spurned to date. I'd like to get something with a range of 30-40 miles for all-day use, and frankly also so I can use the Segway at events such as Burning Man.

[SEGsby]

;) = sarcasm

SEGsby