Unsatisfactory performance (INC, not the PT)

[terryp]

In a nutshell...

I bought a new pair of lithiums for my i167, but they gave just over half the range of my i180. By swapping between machines, I determined that both packs were bad.

Segway replaced them under warranty, but charged me $87 for shipping, and also charged my card for $1713 to make sure I returned the original bad packs.

One replacement wouldn't charge properly, so INC replaced it. That replacement was fine, but then the other one wouldn't charge properly.

INC said, 'No more batteries for you - send the whole machine back', which I did, for $125.

Two weeks after they received it, I called to check status, and was told they had replaced the other battery, and it would ship back in a day or two.

A week later, they still had it - said they'd call back with details why. They also said someone would tell me why they hadn't credited my card yet after having my old packs for several weeks. No one called.

I emailed them with the whole story, and asked that they consider picking up all my shipping charges, since it wasn't my fault they couldn't find two good packs. No response.

My dealer graciously offered to get involved on my behalf. They told him that they found nothing wrong with the machine, but they'd have to call him back to tell him why it was still there. They didn't. Accounting also promised him they'd credit my card the next day. Four days later, the credit has still not shown up.

So this is the same company that turns out those great machines? Maybe they need to move some of their brilliant designers into the service and accounting departments. This is just not acceptable.

[austin@SOH]

Well, I do not have much to say about the service, as I am not involved with the situation... But, dealing with credit cards, it will sometimes take up to seven business days for a credit to post, an average of four usually...

[Sal]

This surely doesn't sound like the LLC we all knew and loved.
Terry, I hope you get everything sorted out.

-Sal

[amturnip]

Quality control on the batteries has been wanting ever since their introduction.

Are the exorbitant shipping charges intended to encourage victims to handle returns via the dealer instead of the mother ship?

[terryp]

Well, I do not have much to say about the service, as I am not involved with the situation... But, dealing with credit cards, it will sometimes take up to seven business days for a credit to post, an average of four usually...Yeah - I'll keep watching. But it's been four days since they promised my dealer, about two weeks since I brought it to their attention, and about a month since they should have credited my card.

And my dealer says he still hasn't heard back from them.

[terryp]

Quality control on the batteries has been wanting ever since their introduction.

Are the exorbitant shipping charges intended to encourage victims to handle returns via the dealer instead of the mother ship?
INC's original plan was for the local dealer to replace my bad packs. He said he'd have to okay it with INC first. When I checked with him two days later, he said he'd called, but they didn't get back to him. So I had INC call him, and he told them he hadn't heard from me. Nuff said. (I bought from another dealer; that may be why he didn't want to bother with me.)

[KSagal]

Terryp,

I am afraid that I hear this kind of story all the time with all kinds of industries.

I am not saying you did anything wrong, and I do not know the details. It surely seems that what you relayed indicates a problem.

Since you clearly stated that you spoke to the company and they later said otherwize, and you spoke to the dealer and he said otherwize, there is a communication problem going on...

I do not know the conditions you purchased your machine and batteries under, (you indicated some but not all details) but I have always found it a better buy to establish relationships than go for price alone...

I have a Used car dealer who has refused to sell me cars that I wanted. This is because I have a relationship with him, and every 3 years or so, I buy TWO used cars, usually 3 years old, for cash, and I have done this for me and my wife from him for over a decade. I do indeed get very good buys and all the cars are in great condition, because he will not let me buy a good looking car that he does not trust.

I have a similar relationship with a mechanic. And other professionals and non professionals.

And I have similar relationships with Segway dealers. I am not saying that I will not appreciate a good price, but sometimes the couple hundred dollars you thought you saved turns into the story you just told all of us.

If I had the problem you just related, it would instantly become the problem of the dealer who sold it to me. And that dealer would gladly fix it, because I am a good customer.

When we shop around, and buy based on price alone, we forego that relationship. In my opinion, it becomes penny wize and pound foolish...

I do hope you a speedy and cost effective solution to your problems.

[terryp]

Terryp,

I am afraid that I hear this kind of story all the time with all kinds of industries.

I am not saying you did anything wrong, and I do not know the details. It surely seems that what you relayed indicates a problem.

Since you clearly stated that you spoke to the company and they later said otherwize, and you spoke to the dealer and he said otherwize, there is a communication problem going on...

I do not know the conditions you purchased your machine and batteries under, (you indicated some but not all details) but I have always found it a better buy to establish relationships than go for price alone...

I have a Used car dealer who has refused to sell me cars that I wanted. This is because I have a relationship with him, and every 3 years or so, I buy TWO used cars, usually 3 years old, for cash, and I have done this for me and my wife from him for over a decade. I do indeed get very good buys and all the cars are in great condition, because he will not let me buy a good looking car that he does not trust.

I have a similar relationship with a mechanic. And other professionals and non professionals.

And I have similar relationships with Segway dealers. I am not saying that I will not appreciate a good price, but sometimes the couple hundred dollars you thought you saved turns into the story you just told all of us.

If I had the problem you just related, it would instantly become the problem of the dealer who sold it to me. And that dealer would gladly fix it, because I am a good customer.

When we shop around, and buy based on price alone, we forego that relationship. In my opinion, it becomes penny wize and pound foolish...

I do hope you a speedy and cost effective solution to your problems.
I didn't shop around for price. I purchased from an out-of-state dealer with whom I'd established a relationship earlier, and I paid what I felt was a fair price.

I don't consider this his problem - it's a company problem that's beyond his control. I appreciate his offer to try to help, but he doesn't seem to be getting anywhere either. That must be particularly frustrating for a dealer.

I don't find any comfort in the fact that other companies have similar problems. Part of the pride of owning a Segway has been the knowledge of a great company behind the great product. With this experience, I've lost some of the enthusiasm I've had, especially when demoing to people.

And I didn't state that I'd spoken to the company and they later denied it - just that they haven't followed through on their promises to get back to me, or the dealer, with information. That's the only 'communication problem' here.

[Timezkware Tim]

I'm really sorry to hear about all the hassle dealing with Inc. Any company with integrity should stand behind their product. If the batteries were clearly bad, how could they charge you for shipping? :confused:

Hope it all works out somehow. I'm sure many of us would like to hear what happens. Don't forget that you probably have some type of buyer-protection policy if you used a major credit card. Filing a dispute with Visa/MC, Amex, or Discover can take a couple of months, but it's worth it to get even some of your money back.

Tim

[joe]

It seems that INC wants to learn it the hard way. Employ a lawyer.

--
Johannes

[citivolus]

I heard there were staff cuts recently and perhaps that is part of the cause of the poor service. The rumor, insert standard gossip disclaimer here, is that less staff will help with the numbers on the balance sheet for the rumored IPO. Oh, you need to supply your own water to wash down the appropriately large grain of salt.

[Florida Ever-Glides]

Shame on you for being critical. The staff at Segway Inc. were hand picked to be the best, which they all are. I have wonderful business relationships with several of them. Patience is a virtue. Your wait will be well worth it...

[safety1st]

Terryp

Did you post this not long ago?
"I've found that buying from an out-of-state dealer is cheaper, as the shipping is less than the taxes saved.
__________________
i1 > i2"

and now you're wondering about service from the local dealer.

David

[citivolus]

Patience is a virtue. Your wait will be well worth it...
With all due respect, I think he has shown more than enough virtue and gotten little more than nothing in return. When my car goes in for warranty work, they give me a loaner until it is done. If Segway wants to be taken seriously as a form of alternate transportation, they must be able to respond to customer needs in a timely fashion. I can't imagine where a month without progress updates would be considered a timely response, except government where a month would be a miracle.

[Florida Ever-Glides]

They have had three of my units for more than two months now. There are some terrific dealers out there that probably would give out a loaner. But still, segway is growing very quickly now and they need our support more than ever. Being angry won't get it to you any quicker, and when you do get it, the time that you waited for it evaporates quickly. When ford was growing, they had similar delays too, but they were fortunate that the internet and chat sites didn't exist back then. Hang in there. If you lived by me, I'd have loaned you one of mine....

[terryp]

Terryp

Did you post this not long ago?
"I've found that buying from an out-of-state dealer is cheaper, as the shipping is less than the taxes saved.
__________________
i1 > i2"

and now you're wondering about service from the local dealer.

David
I purchased from an out-of-state dealer with whom I'd established a relationship earlier, found that it was cheaper to do so, and felt I paid a fair price.

There's no contradiction, if that's what you're implying. But I'm flattered that you remember my posts. :D

[terryp]

To be fair to Segway, I wanted to report that the $1700 showed up on my card today, just six weeks late. But my i167, which they told me there was nothing wrong with except for the fourth bad pack, is still being held captive with no explanation.

[ions82]

Hm. With such posts, I'm glad to say that I'm STILL sitting on the fence. I have some high-end precision equipment from a company in Germany. It's the same situation. Top-notch products, but very poorly run. It's also a small operation that doesn't have the resources to replace things on demand and distribute loaner units. I guess all the hassle is just a price that must be paid for owning equipment that is on the cutting edge.

[terryp]

They have had three of my units for more than two months now. There are some terrific dealers out there that probably would give out a loaner. But still, segway is growing very quickly now and they need our support more than ever. Being angry won't get it to you any quicker, and when you do get it, the time that you waited for it evaporates quickly. When ford was growing, they had similar delays too, but they were fortunate that the internet and chat sites didn't exist back then. Hang in there. If you lived by me, I'd have loaned you one of mine....
I'm curious as to what you meant by 'Segway is growing very quickly now'. Did you mean that they're adding support people? Or just that sales are ramping up? Because service seems to have slowed to a standstill, and if they're adding customers but not adding people to take care of those customers, it will be their demise.

To paraphrase someone else - If Dean's vision is to get cars off the road, his company needs to be able to turn around its repairs a LOT faster than they are now - especially when the only problem is a frickin battery pack.

I'm not angry - I'm just very disappointed. My i180 still runs like a top, so I'm just not going to bug them anymore. Someday maybe they'll decide to return the i167 they told my dealer had no problems except for the fourth faulty battery pack. I'll let you all know when that happens, and what their explanation is for the delay - if they offer one.

You won't hear another word from me on this thread unless and until my i167 shows up on my doorstep.

[Florida Ever-Glides]

What I meant to say is that maybe Segway Inc. is growing too quickly at the moment. They have an awful lot on their plate right now with new product sales (back orders), model discontinuations, and a back log of repairs. I'm still waiting patiently like the rest of you.

This is the slowest service that I've experienced, but I chalk it up growing pains. I'm hoping they will soon turn a corner and be caught up with their back log and everyone will be happy again. I know that everyone at Segway Inc. is sorry for delays and are working as hard as possible to make everyone happy customers...

[terryp]

Well, I promised not to post again on this thread until my machine was returned, and it finally arrived - unexpectedly - today. (They told me they'd email me first with a tracking number.)

They replaced the right fender, which they said was cracked (in shipping). Unfortunately, it has a much more pronounced texture than the original left one (QC?), so they don't match anymore.

According to the service description sheet, they replaced a bad battery. That's what I told them was wrong (the fourth bad one in a row), but they insisted on seeing the whole machine. The sheet describes this replacement pack as 'refurbished' in one place, and as 'reconditioned' in another. What's with that? I paid for new! And I'm still out over $200 for problems I wasn't responsible for.

The sheet also says that they loaded 14.1 firmware. They shipped it only a week ago, so why didn't they load 14.2? My local dealer says he'll be able to upgrade three in the time slot he gave me for two, but I don't know how I'm going to fit all three in the station wagon at once.

All I can say is that I'd better get decent mileage now, and no charging problems, or I'll be even more upset than I am now. Stay tuned.

[Sal]

Hm. With such posts, I'm glad to say that I'm STILL sitting on the fence. I have some high-end precision equipment from a company in Germany. It's the same situation. Top-notch products, but very poorly run. It's also a small operation that doesn't have the resources to replace things on demand and distribute loaner units. I guess all the hassle is just a price that must be paid for owning equipment that is on the cutting edge.

Ions82, I can understand your hesitation, but understand that the situations expressed here are not the norm. They're valid, yes, but not the norm. The overwhelming majority of Segway Owners are very satisfied, I would venture to guess that Tom and Terry as well have also had very good experiences with INC.

-Sal

[Florida Ever-Glides]

My good experiences far outweigh the very few recent unfortunate experiences. I just sent out another unit for repair. We'll see how the machine comes back. I sincerely hope it's in the same cosmetic condition as it went out in....

[amturnip]

'refurbished' ... 'reconditioned'.... What's with that? I paid for new!

Refurbished batteries might be better than new ones. Perhaps all the dead-on-arrival (or soon after) batteries we read about here are candidates for replacement of a few bad cells. Once that's done, they're better than ever, but technically "refurbished".

[terryp]

Once I got the machine home late last night and reassembled it, I found that it had been upgraded to 14.2 after all. The service sheet just hadn't been ammended, and still showed 14.1.

amturnip may be right about reconditioned packs. This one certainly looks new. If it works like new and has the same warranty, that's essentially new. I charged overnight, and I'm about to glide to work to compare range to my i180. (Fingers crossed.)

Totally off-subject, but we went to the Washington State Fair last night, and one of the first things we saw was a p-series coming through the gate behind us riden by a young girl - maybe 10 - with braces on both legs. Very cool.

[Lawson]

amturnip may be right about reconditioned packs. This one certainly looks new. If it works like new and has the same warranty, that's essentially new. I charged overnight, and I'm about to glide to work to compare range to my i180. (Fingers crossed.)


Lithium ion cells can be recharged a finite number of times. Also, they slowly degrade over time regardless of the number of times they've been recharged. If a refurbrished battery pack means that new cells were added to replace some bad cells, as per the suggestion, then the life of the refurbrished pack will be dependent on the age and number of recharges of the original cells in the pack. If the pack really is refurbrished, the best you can hope for is that the cells that weren't replaced weren't very old or charged many times (i.e. the battery is almost as good as new). I can't imagine a scenario in which a refurbrished pack is as good as, or better than new.

[terryp]

Lithium ion cells can be recharged a finite number of times. Also, they slowly degrade over time regardless of the number of times they've been recharged. If a refurbrished battery pack means that new cells were added to replace some bad cells, as per the suggestion, then the life of the refurbrished pack will be dependent on the age and number of recharges of the original cells in the pack. If the pack really is refurbrished, the best you can hope for is that the cells that weren't replaced weren't very old or charged many times (i.e. the battery is almost as good as new). I can't imagine a scenario in which a refurbrished pack is as good as, or better than new.
So much for trying to feel better about getting a refurbished pack instead of the new one I paid for. ;) Regardless of how they compare, I'm tired of fussing over bad packs, lost money, and lost use of the machine. I'm just going to put it behind me and hope for the best.

[bystander]

I can't imagine a scenario in which a refurbished pack is as good as, or better than new.I don't disagree with your points about standard Li-ion cells and packs.

However the Saphion has slightly different chemistry, and has yet to establish itself as having the same storage limitations as plain Li-ion.

And I can imagine a scenario where a refurbished pack could be better than a new one.

The new ones get a "once over" test before being released. Some bad ones may slip through. Chances are the refurbished ones undergo multiple tests before release, possibly lowering the odds of "infant mortality".

Not saying this is always the case, just "imagining".

[MagicSmoke]

I want to know how to tell if my batteries have been refurbished please. Seems to be the most expensive part of the segway to maintain.

[polo_pro]

I want to know how to tell if my batteries have been refurbished please. Seems to be the most expensive part of the segway to maintain.
When I purchased my segway used, I was quite concerned about the condition of the batteries. Because I was purchasing it at a great price from a dealer, I knew the opportunity existed to put an older set of batteries on the unit.

After extensive research and asking around here on SegChat, I determined that only the part number might give me an approximate idea of when the batteries were manufactured. (Well, that and the color, since an i170's NiMH batteries are black instead of grey.) How does this all help you?

Well, Segway INC changes the part number on their batteries every so often (possibly every 6 months...but this is just a guess). So for NiMH, the battery part number ended with "af" for older segways like the i167's, but for later segways like the i170's it'd end with "AH" or "AI". I don't know about i180's with NiMH...mabye someone will chime in.

I haven't heard of anyone describing a similar situation with Li-Ion batteries. Maybe the part number for Li-Ion batteries has been bumped a few times since their release a year ago. I'd certainly expect the most recent generation of Li-Ion batteries usable on i2's to have a new part number. If you'd like a quick question to allay your fears, simply ask, "Can these Li-Ion batteries be used on an i2?" If the answer is yes, then you know you have the recent generation of Li-Ion batteries with the protection chip in it...hence it likely never needed to be "refurbished".

ps - If you want to examine part numbers of a given set of batteries, bring the right tool to pull the battery off. Unfortunately, the part number is on the labels next to the connector and not readily accessible.

[MagicSmoke]

very nice of you to explain this to me sir :)