Segway off the grid!

[skydiver]

This weekend I am installing my solar panel.

Solar panel - battery - inverter - Segway. :D

Thus, my Segway will run on sunshine!

My commute is around 4-6km or 3-4 miles, so I can easly support solar charging.

[Sal]

That's fantastic... I hope you post pictures of the charging station once you have finished!

Additionally, please also post data on how long it takes to charge, battery level increase per hour of charge etc. how long you can glide per hour of charge etc.

:-)

-Sal

[skydiver]

Will do! All info to follow.

[KSagal]

Did you build a stationary charging facility, that you plug into, or are you building a canopy that will charge on the fly... Actually, on the creep, since with a charge cord attached, I believe the seg only goes a few miles per hour...

I had considered something like a solar generator, but don't you loose too much in the conversions? If you use the on board charger, so that it does a smart charge, you must convert the dc to ac and then up the voltage to 110 at least.

Please do tell...

[skydiver]

I woke up this morning and said what the hell am I doing.

i already have a back up power supply for my entertainment center, now I am going to build another type for my Segway?

Panel 299.00
100 Ah deep cell battery 249.00
inverter 40.00

Total 588.00

I pay 6c/KWH for electricity. it takes about $0.072 to charge my Segway from full dishcharge.

So my break even would be around the 8000th cycle, I love mother nature and all but that is pure stupidity.

Oh yah I charge my Segway 2-3 times per week, so it would take me 52 years to do those 8000 cycles.

BACK ON THE GRID!!!!! [B)]

[KSagal]

i already have a back up power supply for my entertainment center, now I am going to build another type for my Segway?



But,... But... My segway is my entertainment center...

[ebotee]

The fuel cell guys from Pennsylvania did a pretty good job. Im not sure of the exact specs but they were doing all of the conversions making it less efficient. If only somebody got into the power base:rolleyes: .

[Stan671]

The fuel cell guys that were at the SegwayFest 2004 in Florida, put thier power directly into the batteries. They tapped into the connection in the platform where the batteries connect to the driver boards. This is the most efficient way to do it.

[ebotee]

But their design was a hybrid; If they really did that, why has nobody tapped into the battery packs for mods?

[bystander]

But their design was a hybrid; If they really did that, why has nobody tapped into the battery packs for mods?The battery packs are sealed, what's being talked about is opening the powerbase, soldering medium to large gauge wires to the controller PCBs at the point where the battery contacts connect, cutting holes in the lid of the powerbase and leading the wires out. And taking measures that prevent the wires from accidentally shorting out and mangling the battery packs.

[Stan671]

Bystander is correct, as usual. The fuelcell guys opened the platform and connected to the battery wires there. They did not touch the batteries.

[juancarlos]

Hi All,

I wonder if you can help me with on this issue.

We have a Segway XT which we use for environmental education and surveillance in a National Park in central Mexico. We are facing the problem of running out of battery and have set up a control point (far from any wall outlets) where we intend to install a recharging station (solar powered). We just don´t know what equipment can best meet the XT´s needs for power.

We found this solution: http://www.jatsgreenpower.com/devices.html
but have no clue if it will help recharge the unit.

Can anyone provide some feedback?

Thanks a lot in advance!

Juan Carlos

[bystander]

Hi All,

I wonder if you can help me with on this issue.

We have a Segway XT which we use for environmental education and surveillance in a National Park in central Mexico. We are facing the problem of running out of battery and have set up a control point (far from any wall outlets) where we intend to install a recharging station (solar powered). We just don´t know what equipment can best meet the XT´s needs for power.

We found this solution: http://www.jatsgreenpower.com/devices.html
but have no clue if it will help recharge the unit.

Can anyone provide some feedback?

Thanks a lot in advance!

Juan CarlosThe solution you located can "help" to recharge a PT, but it has too small a solar cell and too small a built-in battery to recharge a PT that needs a full charge. The built-in inverter is adequate.

The item mentioned (Solar PowerPac) says it has 21 amp-hours of capacity at 12 volts. This gives a watt-hour capacity of around 250 wh. Due to losses when applying that through the inverter, it can get around 215 wh to the PT in around 2 hours. Of that 215 wh that goes into the PT's charger, around 180 wh will make it into the batteries, for a little less than 1/4 of a full charge. Depending on terrain, that might only give you about 1.5 or 2 miles of range on the XT.

A PT using Saphion cells uses around 1.0 to 1.2 kwh to fill it's 800-960 wh battery packs. For a full charge, it draws around 120-140 watts for 8-10 hours. When an inverter is used, it must be able to handle a (very brief) 300-350 watt "surge".

Completely draining the Solar PowerPac on a regular basis will wear out it's battery quickly. Also operating it in elevated temperatures will also wear it out faster.

Using several Solar PowerPacs may be an option, but will be expensive, as quite a number of them would have to be purchased. Since the inverter is big enough to handle the PTs, one option is to purchase additional batteries and solar cells. But that can be expensive.

The lead-acid batteries used in it will only last a long time if they are only drained by 20% between recharges. This means that 6 kw, or 500 amp-hours of 12v lead-acid batteries are needed if the XT will be fully charged from the system daily.

The panel needs to be bigger too, in order to accumulate the required 1.2 kw in a 24 hour period (if recharging the XT daily). There are losses in the charging system, so one has to plan for around 1.5 kwh of sunlight. If there is 8 hours of full sun available, then the panels would have to be 1500 / 8 = 190 watts. If there is only 5 hours of full sun available, then the panels must be 300 watts. If weather is sometimes cloudy, or only partial sun is available, or the solar cells can't be mounted at a good angle to the sun, that has to be factored in too, meaning even more solar cells are needed.

When there are several solar cells in a system, one can benefit from installing a charge controller, which maximizes the output of the cells automatically as conditions change, but that's another additional expense.

For more info in old threads, try searching for the term "solar" with the search feature on this board, located on the blue bar at the top of the page.

[bentbiker]

Juan Carlos,
I realize it would not be an equally environmentally friendly solution, but is it out of the question to use one of the newish lightweight portable generators? Way simpler.

Bystander, I still can't reward your very thorough response with rep points (I need to reward 346 other people before I can again reward you), but surely others will.

[BillPaxton]

just buy a second set of batteries.

[bentbiker]

just buy a second set of batteries.

I think the XT is remotely located all of the time with no way to recharge one or two sets of batteries.

[polo_pro]

oops...brain fart....ignore this (and the quote below in the next response) 8^) 8^) 8^) I'd started considering how to have the solar cells feed directly into the segway batteries when I made the half-baked comment that was here a minute ago. Ain't editing grand?

ps - I think bentbiker's suggestion of using a lightweight portable generator is a simpler, cheaper solution (even if it isn't as environmentally friendly).

[bentbiker]

I didn't see this in bystander's post, but I thought I should mention it. Usually people want to use their segway during daylight hours. This is the same time you'd be planning on doing charging. So this means you have to buy 2 sets of batteries plus an off board charger. This way you can be using one set of batteries during the day while the other is charging on the offboard charger.

PLO,
The storage batteries in the recharging kit allow the Segway to be recharged at night. I know you like to have extra batteries, but . . . :)

[bystander]

Juan Carlos,
I realize it would not be an equally environmentally friendly solution, but is it out of the question to use one of the newish lightweight portable generators? Way simpler.

Bystander, I still can't reward your very thorough response with rep points (I need to reward 346 other people before I can again reward you), but surely others will.Thanks for the kind words.

I almost suggested a generator myself. Problem is, the relatively low current used by the PT (120-140 watts) isn't well matched by low-end generators, meaning low efficiency. Also the run-time needs to be 8 - 10 hours for a full charge, which might mean going through a lot of fuel. If the PT could be charged in 2 hours at 600w or 1 hour at 1.2kw or so, the "off-the-shelf" generator option would make lots more sense.

The generator would certainly be less expensive, however. Perhaps a generator with a bank of batteries. Problem with that is, the bank of batteries has to be large because lead-acid chemistry wears out before it's time if discharged below 20% on a daily basis.

If one was able to obtain a large (1200 wh) NiMH or L-Ion pack, it could be discharged 100%, and still work for a year or two of daily full discharge / recharge cycles. But 1.2 kwh of NiMH or L-Ion may be more expensive than 6 kwh of lead-acid.

But let's hear some more from the original poster. Maybe all he needs is a couple of extra miles and doesn't want the XT to be stuck at the remote station for 8 hours anyway.

[juancarlos]

Thanks guys!

I found another one that seems to provide 5 times more power than the one mentioned on my previous post.
http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-devices-2.html

I also missed some info:
We only use the XT during weekends, therefore we need some recharging power on saturday (evening), thus allowing the solar panel to recharge the battery for the remaining days of the week. And we don´t actually need a full charge of the XT, only enough to get 4-5 additional miles. Mmm... Partial charging could wear out the XT´s battery?

Thanks again.

Juan Carlos

[polo_pro]

Thanks guys!

I found another one that seems to provide 5 times more power than the one mentioned on my previous post.
http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-devices-2.html

I also missed some info:
We only use the XT during weekends, therefore we need some recharging power on saturday (evening), thus allowing the solar panel to recharge the battery for the remaining days of the week. And we don´t actually need a full charge of the XT, only enough to get 4-5 additional miles. Mmm... Partial charging could wear out the XT´s battery?

Thanks again.

Juan Carlos

Ah...ok, I'll go back to my original suggestion that I edited out of existance above. Two sets of segway batteries (one for Saturday and one for Sunday) charging on small panels all week seems like it'd work well.

Heck, depending on how sunny it is on a "typical day", you might even be able to get away with smaller intermediate storage batteries as long as you could control when the initial surge of power (during start up of the charging process) happens and how much full-sun charging time usually transpires after that. For instance, you might put the segway charger on a timer somehow so that it only starts drawing power (and that initial surge) at 10 AM every day. This would let the smaller storage battery have a few hours of charging from the solar cells before the big demand is put on it. The rest of the day would be the demand for power would be less, so hopefully the solar cells would keep up with the segway's charger (and the intermediate storage batteries would maintain a relatively stable level of charge).

I could be wrong, but the issue isn't a partial charge. I think it's better for your XT's batteries to go from being fully charged to half charged (and then recharged back to full) than to go from half charged to empty (and backto half charged). But others would know about this more than I do! I always fully charge and condition my batteries.

ps - Whatever approach you take, I suggest a quarterly activity of conditioning the batteries.

[Five-Flags]

Thanks guys!

I found another one that seems to provide 5 times more power than the one mentioned on my previous post.
http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-devices-2.html



You're too quick for me. I found this unit http://www.jatsgreenpower.com/solar-powerpac-2.html
on a link from the first page you listed, under "If you need need more power..." -- same unit and a little cheaper. Of course, with batteries, shipping might be more that the unit. :eek:

[bystander]

Thanks guys!

I found another one that seems to provide 5 times more power than the one mentioned on my previous post.
http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-devices-2.html

I also missed some info:
We only use the XT during weekends, therefore we need some recharging power on saturday (evening), thus allowing the solar panel to recharge the battery for the remaining days of the week. And we don´t actually need a full charge of the XT, only enough to get 4-5 additional miles. Mmm... Partial charging could wear out the XT´s battery?

Thanks again.

Juan CarlosThe XT battery has Lithium-ion Phosphate chemistry. It is specified to last 1000 full charge / discharge cycles. It will last longer than 1000 cycles if some of the cycles are partial.

The older lead-acid chemistry commonly found in car starter batteries and this PowerPac product is not optimized for deep-discharge. It will deep-discharge in an emergency situation, but if constantly calling on it for maximum capacity discharge, the batteries will wear out after a few cycles.

The PowerPac II has a 60 amp-hour battery, giving 720 wh of capacity. 20% of 720 is 144, so if used daily, the XT shouldn't be charged much longer than 60 minutes to keep the PowerPac II's battery in good shape. Use a timer on the XT's power cord to avoid over-discharging the PowerPac II's battery.

If only discharging it one day a week, two hours are probably OK, maybe three. If you need more than that amount of time on the charger to get the 4-5 miles of range, more batteries should be added to the PowerPac II. But you need to add them (extra batteries) before finding out the built-in ones are worn out by over-discharging.

The solar panel can be on the small side since it has seven days to recharge. Assuming it's cloudy a couple of days a week, 4 hours per day for 5 days on a 50 watt panel (at full sun) would be 1000 watt hours, which is more than the capacity of the included battery (720 wh).

If it's in the budget, I would recommend the PowerPac II with the 50w solar panel and another 30 - 60 amp-hours of 12v lead-acid batteries. And keep the PowerPac II (and batteries) in the shade. Might not need the extra batteries, so maybe try it without them first.

[bystander]

oops...brain fart....ignore this (and the quote below in the next response) 8^) 8^) 8^) I'd started considering how to have the solar cells feed directly into the segway batteries when I made the half-baked comment that was here a minute ago. Ain't editing grand?



You mean this one ?

If you do plan to get 2 sets of batteries, you might look into what it would take to eliminate the offboard charger and push the power from the solar cells directly from the storage batteries into the segway batteries. The only problem with this approach is if the storage batteries cannot consistently provide enough power, because the segway charging procedure is not meant to be interrupted.I think this could be realized by hybridizing a solar charging controller with an off-board charger. Might get a little complicated to make it completely safe and care-free, though.

On NiMH, it would be more trouble than it's worth, due to the way the NiMH charger in the packs is programmed to deal with power interruptions. But the Saphion sequence is resilient enough that it can be periodically turned off and back on (within reason) at short intervals. Having it off some of the time will make for an even longer (than 8 hour) full charging process, so it's not clear if the overall idea is entirely practical.

If there was an option to full charge the Saphions in a shorter interval, like one or two hours, the hybridized solar controller / off-board charger might make more sense.

P.S. The Saphions don't need reconditioning to extend range. They may need recalibrating if the user doesn't like the way the blinky bars are indicating. But will only happen to users that don't occasionally discharge their Saphion packs fully. (Not that you would know anybody like that!)

[bentbiker]

Juan Carlos,
Can you take the XT and an extra set of batteries (or two sets of batteries) to a source of power every Sunday night? If so, the suggestions of Bill and Plo to get an extra pair of batteries is by far the simplest. Leave the XT on charge until Friday night, swap batteries and charge second set overnight, and take everything back to the remote location Saturday morning. You'd then have a second charged pair for use on Sunday.

[bystander]

Juan Carlos,
Can you take the XT and an extra set of batteries (or two sets of batteries) to a source of power every Sunday night? If so, the suggestions of Bill and Plo to get an extra pair of batteries is by far the simplest. Leave the XT on charge until Friday night, swap batteries and charge second set overnight, and take everything back to the remote location Saturday morning. You'd then have a second charged pair for use on Sunday.Of course, that is a consideration.

But XT spare packs + charger = around $2000. And some cargo space is lost by carting the batteries back & fourth.

PowerPac II w/ 50 w panel = around $1000 (shipping, etc.).

And the power provided by the PowerPac II might pull double duty at the remote location as a power source for lighting, or cell phone / two-way radio charging.

Of course one point agains the PowerPac II is that it has to be secured in the remote location. If there's a chance someone would steal or vandalize it, the cost of enhancing the security might make the 2nd pair of Saphions more cost-effective.

[dgbint]

I have considered the same thing.

I suspect that the fundamental source of 'wind' might be better than a 'solar' source.

Either source could charge a battery ( set ) and in turn an inverter to charge the XT.

Here is an ( Aussie ) item that is about right, I think.
http://www.electusdistribution.com.au
STOCK-CODE: MG4510

I am sure that you can obtain a somewhat similar item anywhere in the world.

Good Luck
Michael

[bentbiker]

But XT spare packs + charger = around $2000. And some cargo space is lost by carting the batteries back & fourth.


Your post highlights our lack of specifics on his useage. I'm assuming he is driving a car or truck to a remote site every Saturday morning from which they take day trips on Saturday and Sunday. Otherwise, they will have trouble even getting a solar panel and multiple lead acid batteries to the site. You are assuming that he takes the XT to the remote site. Either way, though, couldn't he use the XT to do the charging at home and avoid the purchase of the offline charger? I was further assuming he's using NiMH batteries and you assume Li-Ion.

Juan Carlos, please advise.

[bystander]

Your post highlights our lack of specifics on his useage. I'm assuming he is driving a car or truck to a remote site every Saturday morning from which they take day trips on Saturday and Sunday. Otherwise, they will have trouble even getting a solar panel and multiple lead acid batteries to the site. You are assuming that he takes the XT to the remote site. Either way, though, couldn't he use the XT to do the charging at home and avoid the purchase of the offline charger? I was further assuming he's using NiMH batteries and you assume Li-Ion.

Juan Carlos, please advise.Yes, we may be assuming different things.

I was assuming Saphion because the PT in question is an XT and it ships w/ Saphion. NiMH use on XT is possible, but not recommended due to decreased range and propensity of reduced performance in "off-road" conditions.

The PowerPac II has built in 8" wheels & weighs 60 lbs., and I assumed it could be rolled into the remote location, a single time (provided the path isn't too extreme).

The smaller 50w panel is not too heavy and bulky, and I assumed it could be carried in once, either by hand, by pack mule, or by a special trip with a conventional off-road vehicle.

Also, I may have have been projecting my own aversion to unbolting and rebolting the battery backs to the PT twice a week. Sorry about that, I guess I am the lazy type with regard to repetitive tasks. If enough money were being saved, then unbolting / rebolting would not be an issue. But since more money would be spent purchasing spare Saphion packs, the situation had me scratching my head.