How would I.... attach a trailer

[byped]

First off, I understand that the Segway was designed with safe operation in mind, however, I'd need to sport a car seat for my two year old to maximize my gliding opportunities :) .

Could anyone share there experiences with pulling a trailer from a Segway? I would be interested in understanding optimal attachment. I'm a huge fan of "bolt on" customizations which leave no permenant scar. I would also love to hear any creative alternates - if there are any :confused: . Please share any mishaps as well!

I currently have a light weight double seat bike trailer (12 lbs) that I'm considering for use. And, FYI - I'm segwayless.

Thanks in advance!

[bystander]

There are two fasteners at the center rear of the platform (under the mat) that some have used for a trailer attachment.

The tricky thing about using a trailer is that variable tongue weight can cause undesired platform tilting, possibly causing a oscillation or a runaway condition.

If pulling a passenger instead of just cargo, the HT operator needs the passenger's co-operation to not move around (too much) in order to
keep the amount of weight on the trailer's tongue stable.

Here's a thread about trailers a couple of years old, but some of the picture links are broken:

http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=5727

Here's a thread with a trailer hitch attached to the gearbox accessory mounting screws on either side (pictures still work).

http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=5358

You may want to try searching for the term "trailer" or "chariot" here, using the search function.

[KSagal]

I have a number of trailers...

I frequently use 4 wheel platforms and my kid's Radio Flyer wagon, so there is vertually no toung weight...

For a hitch, you can simply go to the hardware store and get a Z channel of light steel (See the rack of linear stock at the local Home depot) and bolt it to the screws that Bystander spoke of...

For a hitch ball, I use the tiny ball that is common for the gas struts that hold up the rear hatch/trunk/hood of your car. Works great for me...

Finally, I often glide with the kids on the platform with me... This is easiest of all, but they tire easily...http://forums.segwaychat.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11814/thumb_pda1.JPG

[polo_pro]

Recently, I towed a 150 pound trailer behind my segway as I made a long distance solo trip down the coast from SF to LA. I'll be giving a talk at Segfest in October, and you'll can ask more detailed question (and see this contraption first hand) there if my below answer doesn't tell you everything you want to know. By the way unlike other car trailers that I've used before, the "segway hitch" was fairly complicated. There are actually several parts to it...I think you'd have to be fairly good at fabrication to implement a design like this.

One part of the hitch was anchored to the Segway and attached to the four screws across the back under the mat that hold the platform together. Thank goodness those screws are long enough to hold this hitch and still reach the threads of the holes in the bottom part of the platform! The other end of this hitch is a seperate piece of metal that is the receiver which slides into the tongue of the trailer. These are connected together by a bolt that allows for it to completely rotate through almost 180 degrees.

This alone wouldn't be enough, so the tongue of trailer was modified too. Instead of being a solid piece of metal, it's been cut and connected back together with an extremely stiff spring that makes the tongue of the trailer straight like before. However in cases of extreme turns, this spring can flex taking some load off of the hitch.

Bystander's comment about trailer balance is important. Because I carefully arranged everything in the trailer for a minor amount of tongue weight, the spring never stretched despite going up (or down) steep hills where I could feel it oscillating (slow, fast, slow, fast) as it tugged the 150 pounds of gear behind the segway. I would think that children moving around inside the trailer behind you would cause a similar effect.

ps - While alot of tongue weight produces problems of stretching the spring till the back part of the tongue hits the pavement, the real risk is lack of any tongue weight. This is a highly unstable situation where the heavy trailer shoves the back end of the segway upward. The segway isn't going to come off the ground because it weighs to much with you on it. However, the shove causes the platform to rotate forward on the wheels...just as if you'd leaned forward! And of course, you start moving faster. So you have this heavy trailer pushing you down a hill causing you to move faster till the speed limitter finally kicks in trying to slow everything down by rotating the platform backwards. And HOPEFULLY, it'll succeed at doing this despite the steep grade of the hill and the momentum you've developed.

Oh...and one more thing...you can't just turn off your segway when you get in a situation like this. Because the moment that power is cut, now you get stuck managing several hundred pounds of equipment all on wheels!!!

I'm not sure if I'd use a solid link with a ball hitch like ksagal is suggesting. The way I use my trailer, I think it would have broken long ago. There were a few times on the trip where I really appreciated the flexibilty of that spring!

[sholloway]

From what I understand there are also child carriers that attach to your waist or shoulders instead of connecting the carrier to the Segway. I haven't towed my kids yet but if I do I believe I would rather have them attached to me rather than to the Segway. In case of an accident I want them 2 or 3 feet behind me rather than 2 or 3 feet behind where ever the HT ends up. I tried a quick search and didn't come up with much but there is a trailer for hikers that looks like it would work on page 10 of this document: http://www.chariotcarriers.com/pdf/2006_brochure_lo.pdf

Have any of you towing riders tried this type of carrier? Do you have any reasons that it might be less appealing?

Thanx for your feedback.

[Sharkie]

I think that would certainly be a VERY good solution. The trailer thing has the potential to be a problem, but this looks like it could avoid a lot of problems associated with pulling a 2 wheel trailer.

Jim

[Stewbonz]

From what I understand there are also child carriers that attach to your waist or shoulders instead of connecting the carrier to the Segway. I haven't towed my kids yet but if I do I believe I would rather have them attached to me rather than to the Segway. In case of an accident I want them 2 or 3 feet behind me rather than 2 or 3 feet behind where ever the HT ends up. I tried a quick search and didn't come up with much but there is a trailer for hikers that looks like it would work on page 10 of this document: http://www.chariotcarriers.com/pdf/2006_brochure_lo.pdf

Have any of you towing riders tried this type of carrier? Do you have any reasons that it might be less appealing?

Thanx for your feedback.

You read my mind shalloway..
I was also thinking a hitch might interfere with curb drops?

During my one big spill, the Segway somehow remained upright and the mat sensors must have been stuck because as I lay on my butt I watched my machine go and go and go, in and out of speed limiter a few times, then do a Fred Astair impresssion, some gymnastics, a hard fall resulting in a broken handlegrip. I'd say it went about 80' to 100', riderless.
Would not be pretty with a trailer in tow.

Not going too fast but I did ride over a bunch of slippery fallen leaves.
Luckily I was only out joyriding in a large open space and not in downtown.
Broke my arm too.

[byped]

As I've read through the requests & links provided... I've predisposed myself to a couple conclusions.

For an optimal "hard" link, I think the best design (purely conceptual) would be a U shaped bracket that wraps from the back (or front) around the wheels to the axis (center of the hub). Then a thrust bearing type hookup to a coinciding U shaped bracket (pointed back) would provide a a central mount point for the trailer on a 180 degree horizontal swivel.

Assuming the materials are of grade significant enough to hold the toungue load, this would advert issues as a result of any movement in the trailer by only permiting horizontal variation. The thrust bering hookup on the axis of the wheels would remedy any load to aleviate harship on dismount or powerdown.

Now... a bungie cord'esk sling with pading around each foot/ankle (each independant back to the trailer - not to ankle tie myself) might suffice, though, the tether would have to be short to mitigate toungue load.... then add the addition of a leading wheel to the trailer (which is not self balancing - might I add) which would take the load off.

The issue I see with the "cheap" alterantive, an emergency stop would be compromised and only remedied by ball jointed hard links strapped to my feet. That would compromise dismounts....

That body trailer looks better - turns might rub the wrong way on a tight radius.

Ok - so how can we refine these concepts? And for those whom have crashed.... how far does the Segway end up?

[sholloway]

StewBonz, I'm sorry for your injuries. Can you imagine if 2 kids were in the trailer as it went 100'?! It's funny you mention a stuck rider detect button. I had a customer call last night telling me his HT wouldn't turn off. It turns out a rider detect was stuck. That makes the only two times I've heard of that happening. Since I wouldn't be able to watch my kids get towed into traffic without me on the machine without my head exploding, I assume I will have to chose the hiker conversion kit if I ever tow. Thanx for your story Jeff.

[polo_pro]

Have any of you towing riders tried this type of carrier? Do you have any reasons that it might be less appealing?

Thanx for your feedback.
No good. Here's the reasons. That guy hiking up the mountain has lots of leverage, but on a segway you only have a small amount of leverage. Sure you can hold a door open, but can you pull the wheel through a pothole or up a curb when you accidentally hit it. Lastly, I'd feel really sorry for any kids being bounced around in that thing!

Secondly, I don't think it's going to handle sharp turns well. It's tough enough to keep your balance when your hand accidentally holds the turn control at one position. Can you imagine if your waist was pinned in one position by that carrier?!

But, if you'd still like to try it, I suggest doing some tests where you tie a string around your waist and then have a friend tug on it hard while you go away from them on your segway. See how well you can regain your balance.

ps - Bring any hitch designs you'd like to Segfest and I'll be happy to evaluate them in person. I'm always looking for a new and better hitch for my long distance glides.

[KSagal]

You guys are welcome to what ever you want. We also have some disadvantage in that many of the older links from the old segway chat site are not available anymore...

I do caution you to not try to re-invent the wheel. If you want to try something new and different, that is wonderful, but do some researce and build upon the info that is out there...

I will not lay a value on the events or considerations of others, but it has always been my feeling that I want to keep my kids close to me.

I cannot image a situation that makes it safer to have them in a separate carrier of some sort, with a soft or flexible hinge/hitch/attachment as the only umbilicle...

Also, realize that what is offered may not apply to you. Look at my segway. I have a lower cargo assembly, because I glide an 'E' model...

THis means a few things. One, the bar means they cannot step or fall off forward. THis puts my kids firmly on the platform with me.

In any condition, because I glide an 'E', it does not glide away. It parks itself and waits for me to get up...

When gliding with my kids, I am especially diligent and pay extra attention. The overwhelming cause of all accidents, segway and otherwise, is not paying sufficient attention to what you are doing.

The most common and well time tested hitch assembly in use today is that of a ball and socket. It is used on all manner of vehicles and devices... It provides a wide range of movement sidways, as well as a smaller range vertically and diagnally, yet does not lag on forward movement and slam back into you on decelleration and down hill...

I am familiar with belt mounted hitches, and the weight of children wll be prohibitive, they will pull you heartily when you are accelerating and going up hill, and when you stop hard (Or hit a pothole, and slow down hard) it will slam into you ...

This may not be an issue or a discomfort to you, or it might.

I will attempt to take a photo or two in the next few days of some of my trailers and hitches...

I have not seen plomoh's rig, but he said it was heavy and he did go a long way. Learn from that. I also believe that SegwayDan tows a child in a wagon often. I may be confusing him with someone else, but there are regulars here who tow trailers often. Learn from them and make your own decision.

One last thing. I agree with the sentiment about what would happen if I saw my kids gliding away on a out of control seg. I simply could not deal with that so I will not. Many things happen that are out of my control, but the world will end before that particular thing does. I don't care if I have to change physics on the spot to assure that...

[SegwayDan]

I've been towing my grandson around for about two years. We bought him a Radio Flyer wagon for his first birthday, and I started giving him Segway-powered rides soon afterwards.

I padded the wagon's handle with a piece of foam pipe insulation. Then I simply got a length of nylon braided 1/8" cord and tied the handle to the base of the Segway. I ran the cord through the handle and around the base three times on each side of the control shaft. I didn't wrap it super tight, leaving a little slack in the collective wrappings so that I could cinch them together with the remaining cord, wrapping tight crosswise around all of the loops between the base and handle. This makes a strong, flexible hinge.

No tongue weight with this configuration.

Colin is three and a half now and still very much enjoys his wagon rides with "Papa."

He wears his bicycle helmet whenever we go out.

The only problems we've had was when he fell asleep once while sitting up in the wagon. He was so relaxed he fell out of the wagon backwards. But he didn't get hurt.

Since then I've been more attentive and I watch for his head bobbing or him looking a little droopy. Sometimes he'd let me lay him down in the wagon on his back on the blanket and he'd sleep soundly all the way home. When he didn't want to do that, I'd carry him in my right arm and he'd sleep on my shoulder. Now that he's older he just lays himself down in the wagon if he gets tired.

He's always been good at holding onto the sides of the wagon, and he's never gotten fidgetty and tried to bolt from the wagon, even when we were waiting to cross at crosswalks.

Looking back on the experience, I think a better wagon experience would have been do get the wagon with pneumatic tires and those wooden slats on the sides.

But as it was, we've put quite a few miles on the Radio Flyer, and its tires are almost smooth.

He'll soon be too big for the wagon and it will have served him well for riding. Perhaps he'll let me use it to give his new baby sister some Segway wagon rides when she's a little older!

http://homepage.mac.com/adobephile/Satori.jpg

Satori Marie, born June 6, 2006

[Stewbonz]

"The only problems we've had was when he fell asleep once while sitting up in the wagon. He was so relaxed he fell out of the wagon backwards. But he didn't get hurt."

The kid was lucky.
That should be a lesson for everybody that wants to tow children behing a Segway.


DON'T DO IT.

[byped]

In concept, how is towing a child from a segway any different than any other vehicle - man powered or otherwise?

Though, if one were to ask me to attach a low slung wagon to my bike, I would decline as my riding speed would not be appropriate. That's why I elected to purchase a burley encore. It has seat restraints and an aluminum cage to protect the occupent(s).

The single statement that has raised my brow, if the Seg stays on - it could continue on its own (feasibly into the roadway).

I would have consider the odds are at a minimum, this would be similar to having the brakes go out in a car....

[Stewbonz]

"I would have consider the odds are at a minimum, this would be similar to having the brakes go out in a car...."

Stuck mats are more common than you think. Especially the older dimpled mat.
I had 12 Segways and experienced this quite often.
I'm guessing after 3 years use, the mat should be replaced.

[SegwayDan]

"The only problems we've had was when he fell asleep once while sitting up in the wagon. He was so relaxed he fell out of the wagon backwards. But he didn't get hurt."

The kid was lucky.
That should be a lesson for everybody that wants to tow children behing a Segway.


DON'T DO IT.
I resent the fact that a stranger from the other side of the world sees fit to tell me what to do and not do.

It wasn't a matter of luck. He had his helmet on and we weren't going very fast, and we were on a sidewalk.

It doesn't hurt a kid to have a few bumps and scrapes while growing up.

There have been only a few such "negatives" in our otherwise pleasureable Segway-powered wagon ride career.

[KSagal]

I can see both sides of the comments about towing kids.

I would not give advise to others, I only offer my preferences and the reasons that brought me to my conclusions...

In truth, I should not allow my kids on my lawn tractor (in my lap) but I have decided it is safer to be on it than off accross the yard. It can throw objects quite a distance but not straight up. Also, when they are on the swing set, and I am accross the yard, I could loose track of them momentarily. If they are in my lap, that does not happen.

Still, I have gotten the advise that I should not do it...

My wife and I had all kinds of good advise for people about their kids and what they should and should not do, but our advise started to dry up after we had kids...

I prefer to have my kids on the platform with me, but I have towed them as well.

As for advise to other parents and grandparents, it would be prudent to eliminate all tree forts, soccer games, and trampolines as well as a million other items. Perhaps we could bundle them up in bubble wrap when they are born, and unwrap them when they are 18 and send them off on their own...

As for Dan, I am sorry I offered him up as an example, but I cannot imagine any more responsible and caring a guardian for his segging partner, so I am completely confident that his young charge is in good hands...

[SegwayDan]

I can see both sides of the comments about towing kids.

I would not give advise to others, I only offer my preferences and the reasons that brought me to my conclusions...

...As for advise to other parents and grandparents, it would be prudent to eliminate all tree forts, soccer games, and trampolines as well as a million other items. Perhaps we could bundle them up in bubble wrap when they are born, and unwrap them when they are 18 and send them off on their own...

As for Dan, I am sorry I offered him up as an example, but I cannot imagine any more responsible and caring a guardian for his segging partner, so I am completely confident that his young charge is in good hands...
In my book Sagal = sagacious = adjective Having or showing keen mental discernment and good judgement; shrewd :-)

I can see both sides, too. And I don't like what I see on that other side.

I DO like what I see on my side, though. Check out my gallery of some of the pix I've shot of my young charge:

Colin at his first birthday party checking out his new wheels:
http://www.van-garde.com/pages/Colin/colin.012/colin.012.01.L/031102205526.html
http://www.van-garde.com/pages/Colin/colin.012/colin.012.01.L/031109204614.html
http://www.van-garde.com/pages/Colin/colin.012/colin.012.01.L/031102205554.html

"Wagon? I don't need no stinkin' wagon!"
http://www.van-garde.com/pages/Colin/colin.012/colin.012.01.L/031102150410.html
http://www.van-garde.com/pages/Colin/colin.012/colin.012.01.L/031102150322.html

In my book also is that the best insurance is one's own competence. You look. You see what's there clearly. You learn. You DO. Those are the lessons I've tried to impart to my son and his son.

[Desert_Seg]

I freely dish out advice...and let others take of it what they may. That's what makes me so good (and controversial) on air! Of even more import, I don't get insulted when others offer me advice or their commentary, just as I hope they wouldn't get insulted when I don't take it.

What I don't do (generally) is criticize other people's thoughts, concepts, ideas, etc, etc, etc. Oh, I may call an idea stupid, moronic, or downright lunacy but then I explain why, from my point of view, that is so. Again, that is what makes me so good (and very controversial) on air!

I don't understand why Dan got upset about Jeff's suggestion as, from where I sit (admittedly on the other side of the world!) it wasn't aimed at him, just Jeff's general opinion on the matter. But then I'm not Dan.

I have come to admire Karl's equinamity and tend to agree with him more often than not. Therefore, I for one, would gladly sit in his Seg conference room and debate this with anybody...even if Karl could easily tip us out!

Steven

[byped]

"The only problems we've had was when he fell asleep once while sitting up in the wagon. He was so relaxed he fell out of the wagon backwards. But he didn't get hurt."

The kid was lucky.
That should be a lesson for everybody that wants to tow children behing a Segway.


DON'T DO IT.

As a mat/switch wears out (to a degree), does it begin to stick on an increasingly frequent basis?

Or, would you generalize this as a sporadic event hap hazzardly occuring throughout the life of the product?

The former, to me, is a maintenance issue and cause for attentative awareness and care as a unit gets some miles. The latter is the riskier type scenario that might concern me to a greater degree.

[Stewbonz]

Dan,
You'll be up for the Darwin Award if that kid gets hurt.

[Stewbonz]

As a mat/switch wears out (to a degree), does it begin to stick on an increasingly frequent basis?

Or, would you generalize this as a sporadic event hap hazzardly occuring throughout the life of the product?

The former, to me, is a maintenance issue and cause for attentative awareness and care as a unit gets some miles. The latter is the riskier type scenario that might concern me to a greater degree.


My switches worked perfectly.
The mats wear out and I think some are manufactured differently.
I had an early delivery Segway and the mat stuck often.
The mat's on my Ps stuck alot too.
I decided to really cleanup the platforms and undersides of the mats on my entire fleet to see if that helped.
DON'T DO IT.
They all stuck after that. The dirt acts as a release.
I put baby powder under there and all was well again.

[byped]

Dan,
You'll be up for the Darwin Award if that kid gets hurt.

Cool - and be aware of vending machines. I'm also a big fan of the guy who strapped the solid state boosters to his car in the dessert....

Just feeling around before I buy a couple segs! I appreciate everyone's input.

[Desert_Seg]

Dan,
You'll be up for the Darwin Award if that kid gets hurt.

Not True. The Darwin Awards are given to the person who most creatively (and effectively) removes his (or her) gene pool from existence.

Steven

[SegwayDan]

"The only problems we've had was when he fell asleep once while sitting up in the wagon. He was so relaxed he fell out of the wagon backwards. But he didn't get hurt."

The kid was lucky.
That should be a lesson for everybody that wants to tow children behing a Segway.


DON'T DO IT.
OK. Let's look at his statement again:

"The kid was lucky.
That should be a lesson for everybody that wants to tow children behing a Segway.


DON'T DO IT."

Point 1: Luck is for rabbits. It wasn't a matter of luck that my grandson survived that particular wagon ride. He wore a helmet, and he was with me. He was UNHURT--only a few tears fell because of the impact and the surprise from being awakened by such an incident--what kid hasn't fallen out of his own bed while asleep a time or two? The point is, he wasn't LUCKY. He was reasonably SAFE because he was with me. His assertioin of "luck" was an insult to my own integrity and active and constant commitment to my grandson's general safety and well being.

Point 2: I don't take lessons from others' experiences. I provide my OWN counsel from my OWN observations and experience--NOT from vague generalities like: "...tow children behind a Segway"

Point 3: "DON'T DO IT." is not "advice". It's an admonition. It's NOT MY own counsel. It comes from a stranger on the other side of the globe.

I admire Karl's point of view in most cases, too. But I don't necessarily value "equanimity", as such. In matters that are important, and in cases where I feel I have obtained enough information, I will DECIDE what is the best course to take and then ACT with no looking back, no regrets.

I don't begrudge someone for offering input or advice, as such. But I do resent Jeff's entire message, in this case, as it went BEYOND the pale.

[Sal]

I am closing this thread (and deleted the last two posts).

I have seen enough on the Chat to know when to stop the beginnings of a flame war.

Lets keep things civil.

-Sal