First Segway boot in Des Moines :)

[Cube128]

Alright, make this possibly the first Segway boot in the state of Iowa. The city of Des Moines recently opened up a brand new public library downtown, a building quite unique in its design, with translucent copper walls and a grass roof surrounded by a man-made park, right on the edge of downtown. Being fond of libraries and in need of a new place to glide, I decided to check it out.

I walked my Segway inside, as I do for any other building, and got nary a glance from any of the other patrons or library staff. I wheeled it into the elevator, went to the 2nd floor, and rolled it to the edge of the building with a great view of downtown through those translucent walls, plugged the Segway in, and sat down to read for a bit.

After about a half hour, I got up and left. As I walked out the front door, I realized I had forgotten my cell phone. I turned right around, went back up the elevator and back to where I had sat. The cell phone was still there (lucky for me that Des Moines citizens don't steal much), and just as I grabbed it, a library maintanence worker came up to me and said "I'm sorry, you'll have to leave, those aren't allowed in here". I had kind of anticipated this exchange ever since I bought the Segway, so I told him that under Iowa law it wasn't a motor vehicle, no way I'm leaving it outside, etc. He wasn't buying any of it, and escorted me out of the building, even going so far as to follow me into the elevator and right up to the front door.

Other libraries in the city that are much closer have no problem at all with the Segway, so it looks like I won't be going back any time soon :) .

[Florida Ever-Glides]

Don't believe everything you hear from a maintenance worker. They usually are not really familiar with regulations, they're just acting on instinct or emotion. Go to the city hall and research the regluations, print out a copy (if favorable to you ) and bring it the next time you go to the library...

[sombody]

Please dont take this personally-

But why do Segway owners go ANYWHERE without a copy of your State laws - Senate Bill etc - in your bag ? ( except for the states with no law ) Then at least have the NHSA and DOT definitions with you.
Im sure you will get around to it.- I bet the reference section of that same library has the Iowa code/ Senate bill and law.

Every Segway dealer should have laminated copies of the law/code for sale in their store- right next to the locks, lights,bags and fenders and misc.

Rick

[JohnM]

TITLE VIII TRANSPORTATION
SUBTITLE 2 VEHICLES
CHAPTER 321 MOTOR VEHICLES AND LAW OF THE ROAD
321.235A Electric personal assistive mobility devices.
An electric personal assistive mobility device, which is a two-wheeled device as defined in section 321.1 , subsection 20B, may be operated by a person at least sixteen years of age on sidewalks and bikeways in accordance with this section.
1. None of the following are required for operation of an electric personal assistive mobility device:
a. Licensure or registration of the electric personal assistive mobility device under this chapter.
b. Possession of a driver's license or permit by the operator of the electric personal assistive mobility device.
c. Proof of financial responsibility.
2. A person operating an electric personal assistive mobility device on a sidewalk or bikeway shall do all of the following:
a. Yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and human-powered devices.
b. Give an audible signal before overtaking and passing a pedestrian or human-powered device.
3. A person shall not operate an electric personal assistive mobility device at the times specified in section 321.384 unless the person or the electric personal assistive mobility device is equipped with a headlight visible from the front of the electric personal assistive mobility device and at least one red reflector visible from the rear of the electric personal assistive mobility device.
4. Violations of this section are punishable as a scheduled violation under section 805.8A , subsection 9A.
2002 Acts, ch 1063, §30; 2004 Acts, ch 1013, §29 , 35 ; 2004 Acts, ch 1175, §397 , 400

[tpkanaley]

TITLE VIII TRANSPORTATION
SUBTITLE 2 VEHICLES
CHAPTER 321 MOTOR VEHICLES AND LAW OF THE ROAD
321.235A Electric personal assistive mobility devices.
An electric personal assistive mobility device, which is a two-wheeled device as defined in section 321.1 , subsection 20B, may be operated by a person at least sixteen years of age on sidewalks and bikeways in accordance with this section.
...

Funny, but I don't see anything here about Segways being allowed in a library?? I am going on the assumption you are not disabled, so that said, why do you think you should be allowed to bring your Segway into a library?? It is a transportation device. It should be left at the door or outside on a bike rack. It can be locked up, and if you're not comfortable doing that... then perhaps the Segway is not right for you. Not trying to be rude, but Segway owners (and I am one, so I know how you feel) ... have this idea that they (we) should be able to bring our HTs anywhere, and I just don't think that's the case.

[safety1st]

Tim

Can you take a brief moment and explain your reasons you think Segways should not be allowed inside buildings? Is it because they are too big or too what?
The reason they come with the tires they do, is so they may be ridden inside without marking the floors. I've ridden into almost all kinds of stores, never running over any small children or destroying any displays. It very useful at Lowes and Home Deport in just saving me time.

I'm not try to start a major conflict, but wondering why you felt this way.

David
"Thinking outside the box"

[tpkanaley]

Tim

Can you take a brief moment and explain your reasons you think Segways should not be allowed inside buildings? Is it because they are too big or too what?
The reason they come with the tires they do, is so they may be ridden inside without marking the floors. I've ridden into almost all kinds of stores, never running over any small children or destroying any displays. It very useful at Lowes and Home Deport in just saving me time.

I'm not try to start a major conflict, but wondering why you felt this way.

David
"Thinking outside the box"

Hey David. And I am not trying to start a conflict either *smile*

It not so much that I don't think Segways should be allowed in buildings. I think that if a building owner wants to allow Segways in, that is GREAT. I actually bring mine into my building at work every day and "park" next to my desk. I only did that after asking building management if it would be okay.

The "issue" I have is with the "assumption" many Segway riders and owners make that because the Segway has a relatively small footprint and non-marring tires that they should automatically be able to ride or bring the unit into a building. The vast majority of buildings simply do not have the space to accomodate Segways scattered about. Elevators are not that large and walkways may not be wide enough.

My rule of thumb is this. For MOST places either lock up outside, lock up in the parking garage (most have bicycle racks) ... or ask when I enter a building if I might leave my Segway next to the guard's desk or in a coat room. My assumption is never that I can take it in and take it wherever I go, just like I wouldn't bring a bicycle in with me.

So I hope I am clearer now. Trust me, I have ridden in multiple places too, I just don't assume its okay until I am told ...

Thanks!

Tim

[william collins]

Since I was booted from the Carlisle Car Show after I asked permission and then saw others riding Pocket Bikes,Golf Carts,Bikes etc...My New Motto is "Better to be Forgiven, Then to Ask Permission and be Denied"

[Timezkware Tim]

Hey David. And I am not trying to start a conflict either *smile*

It not so much that I don't think Segways should be allowed in buildings. I think that if a building owner wants to allow Segways in, that is GREAT. I actually bring mine into my building at work every day and "park" next to my desk. I only did that after asking building management if it would be okay.

The "issue" I have is with the "assumption" many Segway riders and owners make that because the Segway has a relatively small footprint and non-marring tires that they should automatically be able to ride or bring the unit into a building. The vast majority of buildings simply do not have the space to accomodate Segways scattered about. Elevators are not that large and walkways may not be wide enough.

My rule of thumb is this. For MOST places either lock up outside, lock up in the parking garage (most have bicycle racks) ... or ask when I enter a building if I might leave my Segway next to the guard's desk or in a coat room. My assumption is never that I can take it in and take it wherever I go, just like I wouldn't bring a bicycle in with me.

So I hope I am clearer now. Trust me, I have ridden in multiple places too, I just don't assume its okay until I am told ...

Thanks!

Tim
Hi Tim,

I tried to present the arguement in another thread that Segs shouldn't be allowed in some buildings, and was opposed by some posters who apparently didn't get it. One poster actually said that businesses should accomodate Segs inside in the future.

Once again: unlike strollers and wheelchairs, people DISMOUNT Segways. Unlike wheelchairs, Segways don't fold up.

An extreme example: A movie theatre that seats 400 people. 10% show up on Segways. That's 40 Segways that people would want to bring inside and PARK. Obviously, there's no room for even 10% and there never will be.

Where do you draw the line? How many Segways can fit in a theatre or store? Businesses (even public buildings like libraries) should have the right to exclude them.

Segways are transportation devices. Businesses have the right to ask people to park them outside, just like bicycles that people dismount. Fighting to bring them inside buildings is unreasonable as it is a safety factor in many cases and it only hurts our credibility as we try to get people to understand and accept this device.

Tim

(The other Tim) :)

[william collins]

That same theatre 10 percent show up in wheelchairs 10 percent of them are not the fold up kind ...Never has this happen and I doubt that any 40 seggers would be going to any Movie together not even at a Segfest...This is far out ...not in this time frame..One or two yes

[dale@thecoys.net]

I think it's just a matter of common sense - which is sometimes lacking on either side of the question.

Clearly, business have a right to reasonably limit access. One quibble, Tim:

>>Once again: unlike strollers and wheelchairs, people DISMOUNT Segways

In general, people don't dismount strollers and, if they do take the kids out of the strollers then:
1. Most don't fold them up, and.
2. Strollers PLUS kids may take up more room than kids in strollers.

So, again generalizing - if a business or public facility (library) allows strollers inside, then it usually SHOULD allow Segways inside.

NOT to imply that _gliding_ should necessarily be allowed, nor that the Segway owner should want to do so.

[JohnM]

I think it's just a matter of common sense - which is sometimes lacking on either side of the question.

Clearly, business have a right to reasonably limit access. One quibble, Tim:

>>Once again: unlike strollers and wheelchairs, people DISMOUNT Segways

In general, people don't dismount strollers and, if they do take the kids out of the strollers then:
1. Most don't fold them up, and.
2. Strollers PLUS kids may take up more room than kids in strollers.

So, again generalizing - if a business or public facility (library) allows strollers inside, then it usually SHOULD allow Segways inside.

NOT to imply that _gliding_ should necessarily be allowed, nor that the Segway owner should want to do so.Clearly the solution is to lock kids to the bike racks. Absurd, yes. It's also absurd to equate Segways with strollers.

[dale@thecoys.net]

Clearly the solution is to lock kids to the bike racks. Absurd, yes. It's also absurd to equate Segways with strollers.

Please help me understand. If the issue is about "taking up space in a business", why is that absurd?

I also know businesses that have a "leave all strollers outside" policy. That's OK with me (and was OK when I had kids of stroller age). And would imply "leave Segways outside", too.

I often see business patrons whose kids aren't in the stroller they are pushing. That is OK, too.

So, in terms of "taking up space", what's absurd about equating a Segway with a stroller?

[Neelix]

Please help me understand. If the issue is about "taking up space in a business", why is that absurd?

I also know businesses that have a "leave all strollers outside" policy. That's OK with me (and was OK when I had kids of stroller age). And would imply "leave Segways outside", too.

I often see business patrons whose kids aren't in the stroller they are pushing. That is OK, too.

So, in terms of "taking up space", what's absurd about equating a Segway with a stroller?
I totally agree.

You know, Segways take up LESS space than a stroller, when you're riding it.


That is why I think it is absolutely ridiculous to restrict Segway usage.


Look at Disneyland. I have been rammed by strollers; people use them as battering rams to get through crowds. I nearly fell on a kid when his mother slammed in the back of the legs with the stroller he was in; if I had fallen on this child, I may have killed him. As it was, it wasn't painless to be hit, either!

But guess what is allowed in Disneyland and what isn't. That's right, strollers and Segways, respectively.

I think discretion is the key; I'm not going to ride a Segway around a little boutique or tiny antique store, and I don't think other people should either. But there are some places where it is totally stupid for Segways to be restricted.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I am so incredibly tired of knee jerk reactions, stupidity, and unnecessary restrictions. It's time for it to stop. It's time for people in power to wake up and smell the coffee; the Segway is an incredibly useful tool, is NOT dangerous, is NOT a problem, and SHOULD BE embraced and accepted.

[safety1st]

If you do not allow strollers ( I have 7 children, 2 in stroller) you are not allowed to get my money, if you do not allow Segways, you are not allowed to get my money.
If it's a public place and it was paid for with MY tax money then I can ride my Segway where it's practical. If the building has a past history of deaths and/or injuries caused by Segway riders they should adopt a policy restricting Segways.

David

[luckie]

Clearly the solution is to lock kids to the bike racks. Absurd, yes. It's also absurd to equate Segways with strollers.
I like the "lock kids to the bike rack" plan, JohnM. You da man. Sounds good. Perhaps, if you're a bleeding-heart conservative, you could give the parent the option of locking either the kid or the stroller to the bike rack. :)

Seriously, from a size perspective "Segway = Stroller" works for me.

And Tim, hey, anytime someone starts explaining something under the "well what if everyone showed up on a Segway" I tend to laugh and wince all at the same time. I imagine that was the argument used to fight the ADA laws "what if everyone shows up in a wheelchair?"

I get your perspective, and I'm not averse to it intellectually, but I just have a difficult time seeing that it doesn't apply to many other things that we current accept unconditionally.

[dale@thecoys.net]

>>But guess what is allowed in Disneyland and what isn't. That's right, strollers and Segways, respectively.<<

Off-topic, but: I was under the impression that Segways are allowed at DisneyWORLD. Is that incorrect? And is it different at DisneyLAND?

[Neelix]

>>But guess what is allowed in Disneyland and what isn't. That's right, strollers and Segways, respectively.<<

Off-topic, but: I was under the impression that Segways are allowed at DisneyWORLD. Is that incorrect? And is it different at DisneyLAND?
Nope. They have a Segway tour at DisneyWorld, but no privately owned Segways may be used on any Disney property.

[Tarkus]

Nope. They have a Segway tour at DisneyWorld, but no privately owned Segways may be used on any Disney property.

Correct but illegal under Title III of ADA, etal.

But I know thats not news to you.

[mondaylover]

I was thinking about getting some Segway friendly stickers done and awarding them to business owners who are happy to have me come into the store or building - at least to park it inside as opposed to cruising around inside. It would be a kinda cool thing for them to have on their door or window and i would include them as sites on my Segway City Tour Map (still to be designed of course!)

I think any business that allows us to bring our Segways inside the door is pretty cool and decent and I wouldn't assume the right to bull my way on in there. Anything we can do to be seen as cool and considerate the better.

There are loads of kids in Belfast who don't wear helmets and drive really dangerously on mini motos around the city and have no consideration for pedestrians and property, etc. Needless to say they get plenty of dirty looks. I hope to ensure that anyone seeing someone on a Segway doesn't automatically presume we're a menace. We're cool but considerate. The Segway should be to us what the Aston Martin is to James Bond! Wonder if I can get mine fitted with oil slick! Yesh Mish Money Penny

[tpkanaley]

I was thinking about getting some Segway friendly stickers done and awarding them to business owners who are happy to have me come into the store or building - at least to park it inside as opposed to cruising around inside. It would be a kinda cool thing for them to have on their door or window and i would include them as sites on my Segway City Tour Map (still to be designed of course!)

I think any business that allows us to bring our Segways inside the door is pretty cool and ...

Yesh Mish Money Penny

Hey Mondaylover ... GREAT idea... we had the same idea here in Washington, DC but never got it off the ground. We did start an unofficial list of Segway-friendly businesses. We had two categories: those that allow you to ride inside and stay on (like a coffee shop where you're just going in to a counter and ordering something and leaving) and those that would allow you to "park" inside, like in a foyer or coat room. Of course, there ARE businesses that simply don't have the space either way, and they're not Segway UNfriendly necessarily.

As for the other folks making these extreme arguments, can we all just get along? No need to find the 3 words in someone's argument that you can use as a weapon against them ... geesch.

Tim

[skydiver]

I have had the same idea here for Seg friendly business operators.

Maybe Neelix can get the guy who designed the SEGCAST logo to do a logo for Seg friendly businesses.

I would color code them green for "ride away".

Orange for "come on in and park'em"


I once had a coffee shop owner say “you can’t bring that in here”.

So, I said “my apologies, would you like to here why that policy might come back to haunt you in the future”.
He said "yes", so I proceeded to make my case.
1.These are not owned buy “punks” they cost 7000 CDN$.
He went “oh” he thought they cost $800 or so.

2.Would you stop a motorized wheelchair? He said “no” I responded “how do you know who is disabled riding this device and who is not?” his response “I guess I would not know”

So, I said “would you really like to be on the front page of our local paper for kicking out the wrong person?”

Conclusion:
After one quick Demo and complete information session this coffee shop owner is now PRO SEGWAY, and would gladly put a sticker on his door.

Also, he now realizes that any one who can afford $7000 for Segway probably has $5 for a Latte.

[KSagal]

I agreed with bits of many posts till I got to Tim's last one and realized that there is actually more agreement here than dis-agreement.

I believe that there are rights of several groups of individuals to be considered here...

The rights of the land/business owner: If the land and business are private, I believe they have the right to limit access to segs, if done in a lawful manner (Still comply with ADA). I have no problem with that. I also do not frequent establishments that do not appreciate my business, and if that comes with tolerating my segway, that is their cost of having my business.

The rights of the tax paying segway owner: In publicly funded buildings, like libraries, segways need be considered on a venue or facility basis. If the building allows strollers and has capacity without impeeding egress, banning segways seems inappropriate. If the facility is old or small, and they have other bans in place, it does not. Still, compliance with ADA requirements trumps all, regardless of local rules.

The rights of segway owners in a private establishment: Your only real right is that to not be discriminated against (Again, ADA) and your ability to vote with your pocketbook... Wheelchair bound individuals are not likely to be a large enough buying block to be an effective force in sales, and therefore need to be a protected class, and that is where ADA does a good job. I don't think that able bodied persons on segways aught to play that card, as it does not apply.

I have many establishments that seem similiar by class (Stores in the same strip mall) that act differently. Most are very receptive to me gliding in, though I do not treat them the same. Most often, I will glide into a store and dis-mount, but not always. Some always ask where my seg is if I come in the door on foot, if I leave it outside or am traveling by car, they often seem disappointed... I have often heard them actually speak of it positively, as after I leave, the other customers are often animated and when a store sales staff is familiar with the common answers to common questions, they feel it is a service type service they provide to their customers... (I have had the radio shack and hardware stores staffs both brag to me of questions they answered after I left)

I am an outspoken conservative in my personal politics, but am a true libertarian when it comes to the way people and the government should act toward the way people live their lives.

I do not think that anyone has the right to force their personal view over the view of another, as long as there is no infringement involved... I do not like laws that remove the rights of the segway riders nor do I like laws that remove the rights of land/business owners...