The Real Deal on Li-on's

[LarShar]

Could somebody please set me straight on Li-Ion's? What is the real deal here..the straight scoop if you will? From all I have read, you do leave them plugged in all the time when not in use..correct? I keep my pair of I-180's in my apartment plugged in at all times. My girlfriend and I use them maybe once or twice a week, mostly on weekends. Under these conditions, how long before I can expect to shell out $1,600.00 for 4 new batteries to repower? Am I doing right by leaving them plugged in? What are the best conditions for getting the most life out of these batteries?

Thanks in advance all for your input here!

Larry

[Desert_Seg]

Larry,

If you leave the Lion's plugged in AND you use your unit regularly, you are doing the right thing.

HOWEVER, if you don't use your unit regularly you should disconnect the CSB.

BTW, you might want to check battery pricing again....price is a tad bit different than that which you mentioned!

Steven

[LarShar]

Thank you for the information Steven and you are exactly right. I was pircing the NiMH batteries at $400.00 a piece. What are the ion's going for now? I didn't see it in the Segway Shop with the other batteries. Thanks!

Larry

[Desert_Seg]

Larry,

Depending on the dealer the Lions go for around $900 each, or $1,800 per set...

Steven

[LarShar]

Steven,

Man...whew...Thanks. How long do they last using moderately and keeping them plugged in a room temperature?

Larry

[unclejay]

There were a whole series of posts in this forum recently to the effect that leaving Li-Ions plugged in is not the way to go. Way to go is, discharge them to 40 per cent level and store in a cool place.

[olinr]

There were a whole series of posts in this forum recently to the effect that leaving Li-Ions plugged in is not the way to go. Way to go is, discharge them to 40 per cent level and store in a cool place.

Oh boy, here we go agan!

This is about half right. The recommendation to keep them plugged in (charging) when not in use, is proper. (You will get more comments on this!)
However, the comment about the CSB is also proper. Disconnecting the CSB will disconnect the batteries from any residual drain due to active circuits. Then, they could be stored at a low temperature.

FWIW: On another post of mine: A comment about Li Ion Batteries:

"A unique drawback of the Li-ion battery is that its life span is dependent upon aging from time of manufacturing (shelf life) regardless of whether it was charged, and not just on the number of charge/discharge cycles. This drawback is not widely publicized."

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery

Another link: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

I support these comments until there is an independent study on the Segway Saphion batteries. The government has not redefined these batteries, so ALL Li Ion batteries are considered hazardous to ship unless the carrier is certified to ship them.

Good luck on understanding the Li Ion battery. Spend some time doing a WEB search for Li Ion Batteries and Saphion Batteries.

[Desert_Seg]

Larry,

There is some concern on the care and upkeep of the Lions. One of hte big problems in answering your question is the young age of the Lions. There are many suppositions going around but Inc has indicated the following:

1. For short term storage (30 days or less ) the unit should be plugged in at all times it is not in use
2. For long term storage, the Control Shaft should be disconnected

Again, because of their young age, nobody knows exactly how long the batteries will last but if the NiMH are any indication I would say at least three (3) years.

If you regularly ride long distances the investment is worth it. If not, only you can decide.

Steven

[bystander]

FWIW: On another post of mine: A comment about Li Ion Batteries:

"A unique drawback of the Li-ion battery is that its life span is dependent upon aging from time of manufacturing (shelf life) regardless of whether it was charged, and not just on the number of charge/discharge cycles. This drawback is not widely publicized."

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery

Another link: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

I support these comments until there is an independent study on the Segway Saphion batteries. The government has not redefined these batteries, so ALL Li Ion batteries are considered hazardous to ship unless the carrier is certified to ship them.

Good luck on understanding the Li Ion battery. Spend some time doing a WEB search for Li Ion Batteries and Saphion Batteries.Re: "This drawback":

I am under the impression that applies more so to those who purchase additional battery packs all at once and stockpile them for future use.

Re: "... has not redefined...":

I understand your point about treating Saphion "just like" Lithium-ion with regards to limitations and expectations, due to lack of independent studies. That is a very practical way of dealing with the issue. I recognize the comments you support may be valid, but I am not sure they will be vindicated if and when any independent studies come out.

Re: web searching:

Just some background on the current restrictions - doesn't really apply to charging, storing, etc.

The prohibition of Lithium-based chemistry batteries seems to be based on an incident (http://hazmat.dot.gov/regs/notices/sa/not2000_10.htm) that occurred at LAX in April of 1999 involving two pallets of primary lithium batteries that somehow ignited during unloading. Attempts by the ground crew to extinguish the fire with water were to say the least, not entirely successful. The article points out that, even though the fire involved primary cells only, restrictions are placed on both primary and secondary cells "in the interest of caution".

This incident, combined with the ValueJet tragedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592) involving oxygen generators back in Aug. 1997, seem to be the motivations for the restrictions on transporting large-sized lithium-based batteries on commercial air transport.

There was a more recent incident (http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2005/HZB0501.pdf)in Aug. 2004 in Tennessee. But that seems to be a freight-only (non-passenger) situation.

According to this document (http://www.iata.org/NR/ContentConnector/CS2000/SiteInterface/sites/whatwedo/dangerousgoods/file/US_DOT_HM224E_Lithium_Battery_Ban.pdf), one of the main reasons that large-sized Lithium chemistry batteries aren't allowed is because the molten burning lithium metal has been shown to burn through the cargo containment which also contains the Halon extinguishing gas. When the Halon leaks out, it's fire suppression abilities are reduced, rendering it ineffective.

[Buckaroo Banzai]

$1800 for three years???

Ouch. Who's buying at this price?
I'm waiting. That price is insane, IMHO.

Just one more reason we don't see more Segs out there.
But is that really what we all want? Hmmmm.

That's enough cash to get another Seg used!

[byped]

Since the Li-ion batteries have been circulating for about a year, are there any powergliders out there that have been cyclng there batteries daily?

I would have to think that a commuter(s) is out there with 300+ charges?

If so, how has the capacity/performance held out?

[Desert_Seg]

Since the Li-ion batteries have been circulating for about a year, are there any powergliders out there that have been cyclng there batteries daily?

I would have to think that a commuter(s) is out there with 300+ charges?

If so, how has the capacity/performance held out?

I use my LiOn unit at least 6 days a week, at least 20 KM (12.5 miles) pre day, come days much more. I've had NO problems with my batteries. I'm comfortable with the Li-Ons as they stand now....

Steven

[Ground Loop]

I get the impression I'm the only Segway user out here that has been saying "I don't need more range than NiMH". I don't need to go more than 10 miles (a full hour) between charges. I have a motorcycle for that kind of distance.

IF Segway said "Here are some Supercapacitor packs. They charge in 10 minutes, get 5 miles of range, and are warranteed for 5 years, likely to last for 15 years of standby..." Now I'm listening!

Even "here's a half-capacity LiIon pack at half the price -- goes half as far, weighs a bit less, and you throw it away at about the same calendar date." Let's talk!

LiIons will probably never grace my Segway, just because they're a disposable item. In my particular case, the value proposition just doesn't work out.

[byped]

I think the NiMH would be fine, however, I'm probably right at the limit for my application. I would like to consider a Segway to replace a car. My wife has a SUV which takes care of carting around our 2 year old during the week and we pretty much stick together on the weekends. I have a 4 yr old acura that I'm considering the sale of as I could use a 4 door, or perhaps just forego the second car.

I need to get 9 miles out of the segway, work one way, through the concrete jungle of Tampa's suburbs. The segway seems like enough fun to justify only 10-15 more minutes each way (thank you florida traffic), however, I'm really looking for some amount of cost justification.

At $1500 - $1800 (from what I can read), batteries are a significant consumable. I would ideally like to get ahead of the game and optimally have a couple segs for the familly glide.

I need 18 miles a day and would like to avg 10 mph to work (mostly mile long sections of empty sidewalk w/stop signs on relatively flat land (...Florida).

The way I figure it, my car cost me $9 a day in direct expenses (gas, insurance, attributable maintenance) and another $7 a day in foreseeable depreciation. So $16 a day for a sporting ride (6 spd) with tunes and A/C.

If I had to charge the battery twice a day for the seg, and only got 500 cycles; that would mean I'd only get about a year out of the set. That drives the costs of the segway to the neighborhood of $7 day and maybe $5.50 a day (3yr model) in depreciation. Suddenly, $12.50 a day and the feasibility of a rental car event a couple times a year (when my wife's car is in for service) make this an expensive piece of green transportation.

Now, if I can hustle to work & back on a single charge, or those batteries lasted for a 1000 cycles (since I might get to work with 30% charge hanging around), it's suddenly $9 a day and $2500 for my kid's future education. This would really sway me mentally (and my wife) to take the plung.

In the short term, the sale of my car would be a win-win as I would shake the payment, the insurance and possibly pocket the Segway for cash. This raises my disposible income $500 to more than double up the payments on the SUV. Maybe I'd have good karma to boot running green too!

Long post short - what's the real cost to own in a commuter scenario?

[terryp]

Since the Li-ion batteries have been circulating for about a year, are there any powergliders out there that have been cyclng there batteries daily?

I would have to think that a commuter(s) is out there with 300+ charges?

If so, how has the capacity/performance held out?
I've been averaging 100 miles a week on my Lion i180 for over a year now, and the packs are still giving like-new performance. However, the lithium packs I retrofitted my i167 with are giving similar range to the NiMHs. I don't ride the i167 nearly as much, but take it out for exercise once or twice a week.

INC says my local dealer should replace them for me, but I haven't been able to get the two of them in contact with each other so he can confirm that. I've been trying for over a week. He emailed them, but they didn't respond. He called them on the dealer line, but gave up after being left on hold for 15 minutes. I got INC to call him, but he was out at the time, and they didn't leave their direct number, and he doesn't want to waste any more time on hold. Frustrating.

I've heard that the factory is totally backed up with repairs, and some people are waiting nearly two months to get their machines back. Not a good situation for people who have come to rely on them for daily use - like me.

[trader889]

2 months? Ugghh!! Looks like I may have to send my in for repair and I won't be able to do it until sometime in August. Maybe I'll get back in time for Thanksgiving.

[segwaycf]

Just to correct some pricing earlier in this thread. The current MSRP for Li-ion batts. is $799. each for a total of $1600. per pair. NOT $1800.

[idahobrad]

What kind of problems are people having to send their Segs in for repair?
Bigger problems than the dealers can handle....???:confused:

[terryp]

What kind of problems are people having to send their Segs in for repair?
Bigger problems than the dealers can handle....???:confused:
The most involved repair that a service-trained dealer can perform is replacement of a gearbox or CSB. In light of the service backup at the factory, it would seem a good idea to train dealers to go further than that. They can't even replace a faulty BSA, which seems to be a common source of problems.

[Tarkus]

I get the impression I'm the only Segway user out here that has been saying "I don't need more range than NiMH". I don't need to go more than 10 miles (a full hour) between charges. I have a motorcycle for that kind of distance.

IF Segway said "Here are some Supercapacitor packs. They charge in 10 minutes, get 5 miles of range, and are warranteed for 5 years, likely to last for 15 years of standby..." Now I'm listening!

Even "here's a half-capacity LiIon pack at half the price -- goes half as far, weighs a bit less, and you throw it away at about the same calendar date." Let's talk!

LiIons will probably never grace my Segway, just because they're a disposable item. In my particular case, the value proposition just doesn't work out.

No I agree with you to a point.

I have a I180 Lion as my everyday Seg. Bought new the upgrade of $499.00 is a no brain-er.

I also have a I167 Nimh I use to fly and as a rule I never worry about range. I use it at mostly walking speed to keep pace with others and they fade before the Nimhs.

So for some they work out fine.
It's just that it's so cheap to upgrade when buying new.

[Isidore]

Re: "This drawback":

The prohibition of Lithium-based chemistry batteries seems to be based on an incident (http://hazmat.dot.gov/regs/notices/sa/not2000_10.htm) that occurred at LAX in April of 1999 involving two pallets of primary lithium batteries that somehow ignited during unloading. Attempts by the ground crew to extinguish the fire with water were to say the least, not entirely successful. The article points out that, even though the fire involved primary cells only, restrictions are placed on both primary and secondary cells "in the interest of caution".

This incident, combined with the ValueJet tragedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592) involving oxygen generators back in Aug. 1997, seem to be the motivations for the restrictions on transporting large-sized lithium-based batteries on commercial air transport.

There was a more recent incident (http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2005/HZB0501.pdf)in Aug. 2004 in Tennessee. But that seems to be a freight-only (non-passenger) situation.

According to this document (http://www.iata.org/NR/ContentConnector/CS2000/SiteInterface/sites/whatwedo/dangerousgoods/file/US_DOT_HM224E_Lithium_Battery_Ban.pdf), one of the main reasons that large-sized Lithium chemistry batteries aren't allowed is because the molten burning lithium metal has been shown to burn through the cargo containment which also contains the Halon extinguishing gas. When the Halon leaks out, it's fire suppression abilities are reduced, rendering it ineffective.


I believe there was also another airline incident involving a South African Airways 747 Combi (Freight + Passengers) which was lost over the Indian Ocean when there was a fire in the cargo compartment. The crew were unable to extinguish the fire and it resulted in the loss of the aircraft. This was said to have been caused by lithium batteries although the aircraft may have been illegally carrying munitions.

[bystander]

I believe there was also another airline incident involving a South African Airways 747 Combi (Freight + Passengers) which was lost over the Indian Ocean when there was a fire in the cargo compartment. The crew were unable to extinguish the fire and it resulted in the loss of the aircraft. This was said to have been caused by lithium batteries although the aircraft may have been illegally carrying munitions.Rumor or documented anywhere? Date before or after these other events? That is, what regulations were in place at the time of the event you speak of? Just curious.

[terryp]

Earlier on this thread I described my frustration in trying to get a defective set of lithium packs replaced. The local dealer claimed that he had given up on getting hold of INC to verify that he should replace the packs for me.

Well, this morning I got a different story from Barbara at the factory, (who was just about to call me). She said that she had contacted the dealer, and was told that he didn't know anything about my problem (after I called him three times), and was too busy to be bothered anyway (Segways are a sideline business).

Anyway, Barbara is shipping new packs directly to me on a dummy base that I can use to return the defective packs, and they're even paying for return shipping.

I'd say that INC is still doing a pretty good job of taking care of its customers. Thanks, Barbara!

[jgrohol]

Yes, some of the dealers are less than ideal partners in helping people understand the value proposition of the Segway, and then help them after the sale. Luckily, most of the dealers fall into the other category -- they understand why Segways are great products and help their customers after the sale with any service issues.

I wish there was an easy way to tell the difference before you buy, though (although you can see some of the good ones participating here, too).

John

[Tarkus]

Yes, some of the dealers are less than ideal partners in helping people understand the value proposition of the Segway, and then help them after the sale. Luckily, most of the dealers fall into the other category -- they understand why Segways are great products and help their customers after the sale with any service issues.

I wish there was an easy way to tell the difference before you buy, though (although you can see some of the good ones participating here, too).

John

No truer words have been said.

Most dealers are tour companies, not that I'm saying that's bad across the board, but they lack knowledge of the product.

But they could buy the min. order.

I've read the dealer app and no dealer within 75 mi of here come close to the "requirements" spelled out. They are invisible.

The first store I was in with stock, accessories etc was Segway of Central Florida in MT. Dora. I was there for an upgrade. Fine people.

It was nice to talk Seg and touch new products.

Dealer repairs are also something that INC needs to expand on.

That's if selling to the general public is still a big piece of the puzzle and I'm not so sure that it is.

[Isidore]

Rumor or documented anywhere? Date before or after these other events? That is, what regulations were in place at the time of the event you speak of? Just curious.

It's quite a while ago now, Nov 87, so earlier than the events mentioned by others. The story was that the fire was caused by 'cheap far east watch batteries' but later the suggestion was that this was a cover for the true cause of the accident which was fire in clandestinely imported munitions. The accident was in the news here in the UK and I remember being on a local flight to Europe two days later with someone who nearly caught the flight. A quick google search yielded this:

28 November 1987; South African Airlines 747- 200 Combi; over Indian Ocean: The aircraft crashed during a flight between Taiwan and South Africa apparently due to a fire in the main deck cargo area. All 141 passengers and 19 crew were killed.

Search google for: South African Airways Flight 295

[bystander]

Re: South African Airways Flight 295Thanks for responding with the flight number. I looked around but haven't come across any sources that say the "cheap imported batteries in the cargo hold" were specifically Lithium primary or secondary cells. Almost all the sources I've been reading about flight 295 implicate some kind of military ordinance instead.

Interpretation of events leading to the loss of flight 295 have become somewhat politicized, I'm not sure if there is any direct evidence connecting Lithium based batteries to it.

Maybe I'm not reading the right articles. Would you happen to know of any particular articles or sources that mention Lithium as the cargo?

[Isidore]

I also couldn't find anything, my comment was based on recollection of news stories at the time. It does begin to look as if this was misinformation to cover the true nature of the cargo...

[terryp]

I received my warranty replacement lithium packs today. (The bad packs were getting half the range of my other pair, purchased within a few months of each other.)

They spent a couple extra days getting here because the address label was incorrect and incomplete - no company name, NW instead of NE, and no suite number - even though the correct full address was repeated back to me.

On top of that, the packaging was the worst I've ever seen. The packs were mounted on a dummy (defective) power base, which was in the very bottom of a flimsy box that was way oversize (about 2.5' tall), with a few pieces of broken foam, a small sheet of bubble wrap and a half dozen bright orange garbage bags loosely tossed in for filler, but coming nowhere close to filling the void.

Thanks to Barbara in Tech Support for her quick attention to getting new packs on their way, but someone in Shipping is in serious need of training.

[dgbint]

That's a sad sounding packaging exercise.

I think the underlying reasons are:

Batteries alone can ONLY be shipped by CERTIFIED despatchers.
That is, you have to attend a class and hold documents qualifying you to send hazardous materials.
Segway, of course, are qualified, but you most likely are not.

Batteries fitted to equipment do not have the same limitation.

So by fitting batteries to a chassis, they can send it and so can you.

However that's no excuse.

When we have received batteries alone, they have been superbly packaged.

Michael

[unclejay]

I just sold my extra Li-Ions to be followed shortly by the I180 itself. This is like the Prius thing, just doesn't pan out in real life.