A good reason to ban Segways...

[Timezkware Tim]

...from inside buildings: they can be a fire hazard.

Occasionally I'll see a thread about someone wanting to get Segs approved in indoor shopping malls and such, but this is a battle we should not fight.

Even though Segs are pedestrian devices, they should be limited to outdoor use. Unlike wheelchairs for disabled people, non-disabled people who ride Segways will dismount.

If there were enough people using Segways that dismounted inside a store or Mall, where would you park all those Segs? As many busy stores fill to capacity, the Segs would easily become a fire hazard.

This is not only true of private businesses like theatres and bars, but public places like the Public Library and the Post Office. Segways are Human Transporters. Once you've been transported to the Mall, Bar, or Post Office, park the thing ouside before going in.

Tim

(Sorry about the hook in the thread title. I can be a wisenheimer sometimes).

http://inside.cua.edu/images2/segway-2.jpg
Imagine only 5 gliders dismounting indoors and someone yelling "FIRE"

[unclejay]

When the day comes there is a Segway traffic jam, we'll worry about it then.

[Timezkware Tim]

When the day comes there is a Segway traffic jam, we'll worry about it then.

The day is here. Like many cities, the local Seg dealer here is only a couple of blocks from the mall, library, theatres and stores. I see at least a dozen Segs everyday. Some of them are rentals, some are owned. As the picture above describes, it only takes one to block an exit. They shouldn't be inside, IMO. It only causes negative publicity.

This isn't to be confused with bumping into people, as gliders are in control when riding. It's about the obstacles that are instantly created everytime someone dismounts inside a building.

Tim

[bystander]

Speaking of baby strollers, I see few of those while gliding, yet many more than HTs. Anyone have any idea how many baby strollers there are out there?

The bulkiness and awkwardness of a baby carriage might be comparable to a HT being pushed in an emergency panic-type situation.

Are baby carriages prohibited from access anywhere due to fire code safety reasons?

And lastly, could a mini e-series be a practical alternative to an ordinary baby stroller? Might be costly, and the operator would still guide it with a handle, but it might be more maneuverable. The "baby transporter" would be programmed to allow itself to be moved when the handle was gripped and would stand still when released. Unfortunately an infant would probably have a negative reaction if experiencing "stick shake". Hopefully there would be plenty of room for spare diapers in the cargo bags...

[bystander]

This isn't to be confused with bumping into people, as gliders are in control when riding. It's about the obstacles that are instantly created everytime someone dismounts inside a building.

TimWell hopefully we all will gain some personal experience with this at the upcoming SegwayfesT. (Obstacle negotiation, not necessarily emergency response).

[Sal]

Babystrollers, luggage, shopping bags, people, wheelchairs, people, Garbage cans, Teenagers, Golf Carts, the elderly, janitorial trolleys, Kiosks, ...

This hyper-alarmist attitude is what halts progress.

-Sal

[sholloway]

I couldn't disagree more. They should be allowed inside. As pointed out already there are many, many things that are allowed inside that pose the exact same physical barrier threat that these do. They were designed to interact and behave like peds and they do an excellent job of that. A fire hazard is a very lame label to use in my opinion. I haven't heard of any negative publicity siting a Segway being under a roof. I'm not with you at all on this one.

[Stewbonz]

We had over 100 Segways inside the Chicago, Hyatt Hotel.
Not a problem.
The elevators were a bit crowded.

[olinr]

Speaking of baby strollers, I see few of those while gliding, yet many more than HTs. Anyone have any idea how many baby strollers there are out there?

That's the reason I stopped going to Disneyland! I kept getting hit by strollers and wheel chairs. No fun there! We just moved from Anaheim to the High Desert of So. Cal.; it is wonderful to do our own "thing" without company and no annual pass. My XT handles the sandy roads very well. I just have to hang on since some ruts are hidden. My odometer indicates my top speed at 12.5 mph...

[JohnM]

Let's consider the flipside of this discussion. How does allowing indoor Segway usage benefit a shopping mall?

It doesn't. A Segway user is more likely to move thru a mall faster and with less effort than a shopper on foot. This is not good for business. Mall management wants shoppers to spend the maximum time on the premises and shop till they drop. A slower moving shopper is more likely to eye-ball the carts, kiosks and window displays. When total exhaustion does set in, shoppers can visit the foot court, a restaurant or possible drop into a theater. The mom with the baby stroller is welcomed with open arms because she is going to move extra slow and get extra tired. Those kids are going to need food and possibly a ride on the merry-go-round. The longer a shopper is in the mall, the more likely they are to spend money. Moving shoppers thru the mall quickly and efficiently is the last thing mall management wants. It's all about $$$$.

[bystander]

Let's consider the flipside of this discussion. How does allowing indoor Segway usage benefit a shopping mall?

It doesn't. A Segway user is more likely to move thru a mall faster and with less effort than a shopper on foot. This is not good for business. Mall management wants shoppers to spend the maximum time on the premises and shop till they drop. A slower moving shopper is more likely to eye-ball the carts, kiosks and window displays. When total exhaustion does set in, shoppers can visit the foot court, a restaurant or possible drop into a theater. The mom with the baby stroller is welcomed with open arms because she is going to move extra slow and get extra tired. Those kids are going to need food and possibly a ride on the merry-go-round. The longer a shopper is in the mall, the more likely they are to spend money. Moving shoppers thru the mall quickly and efficiently is the last thing mall management wants. It's all about $$$$.Yeah, but won't moving wallets and eyes more efficiently allow more wallets and eyes go through the mall in a given period of time? That's what they are saying about golf courses. Golfers moving efficiently through the course means more fees are collected.

I think mall operators don't care much for the shoppers themselves, a mall operator's biggest concern is the welfare of the mall tenants (shops) and what the mall tenants are concerned about. Tenants who pay high rents and pay their bills on time probably have a much larger "say" about what goes on at the board meetings. If the high-end tenants wanted shoppers on HTs, it would happen.

A different point of view is that it is in the best interests for mall tenants to encourage Segway operators entry, because the Segway operators have obviously demonstrated their willingness to crack their wallets far enough open to pay a substantial price for something perceived as trivial as the Segway itself.

What if a store discouraged shoppers from wearing expensive watches or jewelry while shopping, for whatever reason? Doesn't make a lot of sense to push away some of your high-end customers who just might impulse buy a whole lotta stuff.

On the flipside, maybe mall operators/tenants figure by the time a customer has paid for a Segway, the well must have run dry and the wallets are empty by then.

Time will tell. There are some malls that do not prohibit HT entry. When the beancounters look at the bottom line, they will eventually notice a statistical glitch in the competitor's figures, and put two and two together.

P.S. JohnM, I hope your sig doesn't apply to waiting in line at the mall!

[KSagal]

Let's consider the flipside of this discussion. How does allowing indoor Segway usage benefit a shopping mall?

It doesn't. A Segway user is more likely to move thru a mall faster and with less effort than a shopper on foot. This is not good for business. Mall management wants shoppers to spend the maximum time on the premises and shop till they drop. A slower moving shopper is more likely to eye-ball the carts, kiosks and window displays. When total exhaustion does set in, shoppers can visit the foot court, a restaurant or possible drop into a theater. The mom with the baby stroller is welcomed with open arms because she is going to move extra slow and get extra tired. Those kids are going to need food and possibly a ride on the merry-go-round. The longer a shopper is in the mall, the more likely they are to spend money. Moving shoppers thru the mall quickly and efficiently is the last thing mall management wants. It's all about $$$$.

Your personal opinion based on what? about the speed the average segway user spends inside a mall compared to the average walking pedestrian? I know many people that get tired walking the larger malls and therefore will not stroll the entire length. With a segway, a shopper can spend more time at the kiosks and shops, because they are not so tired.

My information is biased, because I have been at the mall on segways and on my feet, and I like segways.

Your information is biased, because you have not been at the mall on segways and on your feet. Your views against segways in most cases have been well documented.

[KSagal]

...from inside buildings: they can be a fire hazard.

Occasionally I'll see a thread about someone wanting to get Segs approved in indoor shopping malls and such, but this is a battle we should not fight.

Even though Segs are pedestrian devices, they should be limited to outdoor use. Unlike wheelchairs for disabled people, non-disabled people who ride Segways will dismount.

If there were enough people using Segways that dismounted inside a store or Mall, where would you park all those Segs? As many busy stores fill to capacity, the Segs would easily become a fire hazard.

This is not only true of private businesses like theatres and bars, but public places like the Public Library and the Post Office. Segways are Human Transporters. Once you've been transported to the Mall, Bar, or Post Office, park the thing ouside before going in.

Tim

(Sorry about the hook in the thread title. I can be a wisenheimer sometimes).

http://inside.cua.edu/images2/segway-2.jpg
Imagine only 5 gliders dismounting indoors and someone yelling "FIRE"


I am trying to figure out if you are a troll or just a horribly misguided, misinformed individual.

Stating your opinion is one thing, stating it as if it is some sort of fact is quite another. You must also be aware that segway haters and spandex wearers of all sorts lurk here to get quotes like you offer...

The people at the lower right in your photo are far more of a blockage than the person on the segway. Can you not see that?

Have you not segged amongst people? I can and do mingle with people as I do when on foot. That is not nearly the same as when I have a wagon for the kids or a baby stroller.

How in the world can you say that people on a device that takes about the same space as a person causes some sort of a fire risk? Why not outlaw walkers? Tell me you have never ever been in a situation were some person had a walker and it, for some short time, did not cause people to slow down or walk around? How about two people talking in a hallway? Has that never happened to you? (Where you had to wait/walk around/ask them to move) when you come upon someone in your path for any reason?

I find this crazy on a pro segway site, that you would propose the segways cannot be used as they were designed, but instead must be used in the limited way that you feel is appropriate.

I believe that most people on this forum would agree that under most circumstances, being on a segway is more efficient and faster to get from point a to point b. Why would that not be true if point a were someplace you really wanted to leave? (Like a place with a problem?)

As far as your examples of segways blocking the way at stores, it was based on the presumption that people would all park them in a cluster that was blocking the way to somewhere you wanted to walk. I don't do that. If people were on their segways in the stores, not only would there be less parked segway traffic, but there would also be more commerce...

What I have stated is my opinion. I do not confuse opinion with fact. You might want to give that a try.

As far as your statement that "non-disabled people will dismount", don't count on it. I would not for the considerations you offered.

[Timezkware Tim]

I am trying to figure out if you are a troll or just a horribly misguided, misinformed individual...

Look Karl, There's no need to get personal. I am stating an opinion, but that opinion is based on facts.

Judging by the different responses, it's obvious that there are different views about what a "mall" or a "store" is. I don't know what these things are like where you live, but where I have lived, they can be very congested places. When someone yells "fire" right after ALL the lights go out, the isles have to be clear, or people get trampled. That's why there is a clear isle fire law. running into a Seg with the CS laying down tripping people and running into a supermarket shopping cart are two different things. Don't believe me, ask a Fire Marshall.

Even baby strollers are not allowed in some stores and restaurants because they are a fire hazard. If someone wanted to fight this in City Hall they would lose. As a business manager for over 30 years, I have worked with the FD, and had to deal with dozens of inspections. They don't care if it's the Pope in a wheelchair. If it's an object that blocks a doorway or isle, it's a fire hazard. That's the last thing we should be fighting for.

Most buildings are not designed with indoor parking for wheelchairs, strollers, or Segs. When a Seg is used in a store or theatre, the glider has to dismount and park (something wheelchair riders do not have to do), even to buy a greeting card. I don't know what the stores are like where you live (maybe the isles are like a six lane highway), but in midtown Manhattan, for example, the thought of people gliding into a store or restaurant and dismounting would be ludicrous.

As you may have read, I wrote a letter to my local newspaper defending Seg use in our outdoor mall. I described Segging to work along the Venice Boardwalk, one of the most congested places on Earth. These places are outside. When you're inside, the rules change. When someone yells fire, and the lights go out, 400+ people all have to exit through a door or two in the dark. This is not a problem in an outdoor mall.

Once again, if we're going to have a healthy exchange of opinions, let's leave out the name calling. I had an idea of a "store/mall/theatre" when I posted, and if others disagree, maybe their store was more spacious. All I know is that in many stores, a Seg or any object left parked in a hallway or doorway is a fire hazard. That is not an opinion, it is a statement of fact from someone who deals with the FD every single week. I think we as Segwayers (or whatever) should choose our battles carefully. Fighting for a potential fire hazard, whether it be a Seg or a baby stroller, is a bad idea, and it only hurts our credibility to do so.

Tim

[Sal]

...but in midtown Manhattan, for example, the thought of people gliding into a store or restaurant and dismounting would be ludicrous.
Tim

Again, I agree that the attacks and name calling should be avoided. Be that as it may (if it continues, one of the moderators will surely lock this thread)...

BUT... Being that I'm originally from NYC, and my parents still live there, I have often visited NYC on my Segway, been in Midtown Manhattan, as well as downtown Manhattan, in shops and dismounted. I stopped in front of the store(s) and got the permission from the greeter if it was okay for me to bring it in instead of leaving it outside or locking it up outside.

It is possible, and in fact, very convenient.

[Most] business owners who welcome the Segway user will win with a LOYAL customer.

-Sal

Edit: I am sure that when the day comes that the Segway is as ubiquitous as an iPOD, we will already have a modified infrastructure which would make arguments like this moot.

[terryp]

If a bunch of Seggers happen to be in the same store, and happen to have parked their Segs in such a way as to block the exit when it happens to catch fire, yeah - that might be a hazard. But not any more hazardous than a dozen other things I can think of that are a lot more likely. It seems to me like this thread has already gotten more attention than it deserves.

If someone wants to ask a Fire Marshall, they might get in touch with Seattle's. He uses an HT on the job, so I assume he'd have an informed opinion.

[Timezkware Tim]

If a bunch of Seggers happen to be in the same store, and happen to have parked their Segs in such a way as to block the exit when it happens to catch fire, yeah - that might be a hazard. But not any more hazardous than a dozen other things I can think of that are a lot more likely. It seems to me like this thread has already gotten more attention than it deserves.

If someone wants to ask a Fire Marshall, they might get in touch with Seattle's. He uses an HT on the job, so I assume he'd have an informed opinion.

One last comment to clarify my original post, if I may:

One cannot park a stroller in the aisle next to a booth in a diner or restaurant because it is a fire hazard. Even ONE chair in the aisle pulled up to a booth is against the law in most cities.

I'm not against Segs, strollers, or chairs. I think anyone who wants to challenge the law by fighting for Segs in any building is wrong. JMHO. The FD gives out citations everyday for this.

To be fair, so that we're not talking apples & oranges, there are probably large enough buildings where there's not a safety exiting issue, such as an airport. However, in most small stores, diners, theatres, etc., Segs inside would only cause problems and bad publicity.

To use an extreme example, imagine a bunch of movie patrons all wanting to bring their Seg in. Obviously, there has to be some limits to inside use in the real world. At least I think so. :)

Tim

[fredkap]

Tim,

There have been lawsuits won by users of wheelchairs that store aisles be wide enough to accomodate a wheelchair. The same should be true for a Seg used as a mobility device by an individual with a qualifying disability. Please tell me of any store that prohibits strollers being used within their store. The one item that you are correct about is that neither a stroller nor a wheelchair nor a Seg should be PARKED or left UNATTENDED in such a fashion as to be blocking an aisle.

-Fred

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A9570-2005Feb8?language=printer

[Timezkware Tim]

Tim,

There have been lawsuits won by users of wheelchairs that store aisles be wide enough to accomodate a wheelchair. The same should be true for a Seg used as a mobility device by an individual with a qualifying disability. Please tell me of any store that prohibits strollers being used within their store. The one item that you are correct about is that neither a stroller nor a wheelchair nor a Seg should be PARKED or left UNATTENDED in such a fashion as to be blocking an aisle.

-Fred

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A9570-2005Feb8?language=printer

I guess each individual store or building has to be judged individually by their aisle width and exits, perhaps. In the restaurants I've managed for over 25 years, the aisle is 30" wide. If you put a wheelchair or even a regular chair in the aisle up to a booth the FD will cite you. They do it every day.
There have been lawsuits won by users of wheelchairs that store aisles be wide enough to accomodate a wheelchair.The same should be true for a Seg used as a mobility device by an individual with a qualifying disability.
The main difference with wheelchairs, strollers and segs is that people don't dismount from the first two and leave them parked, in most cases. If there is an emergency, Segs could easily become unattended obstacles. Not to mention the extra space they take up when parked.

One of the restaurants I manage has a capacity of 180. Every night, we are filled to capacity. Quite often the FD stops by and does a head count. Theoretically, if everyone brought a Seg inside, I could only take 90 (half) of the patrons when they all dismount. If they stayed in a wheelchair, they wouldn't dismount and become 2 objects.

Tim

[QuadSquad]

I guess each individual store or building has to be judged individually by their aisle width and exits, perhaps. In the restaurants I've managed for over 25 years, the aisle is 30" wide. If you put a wheelchair or even a regular chair in the aisle up to a booth the FD will cite you. They do it every day.

The main difference with wheelchairs, strollers and segs is that people don't dismount from the first two and leave them parked, in most cases. If there is an emergency, Segs could easily become unattended obstacles. Not to mention the extra space they take up when parked.

One of the restaurants I manage has a capacity of 180. Every night, we are filled to capacity. Quite often the FD stops by and does a head count. Theoretically, if everyone brought a Seg inside, I could only take 90 (half) of the patrons when they all dismount. If they stayed in a wheelchair, they wouldn't dismount and become 2 objects.

Tim


Aaah well I can see the problem. It's your perspective that's giving you difficulty.

Since the restaurant that you manage only has aisles which are 30 inches wide you should have already been cited for violating the Americans with Disabilities Act. The requirement by the United States Department of Justice is:

5.3 Access Aisles. All accessible fixed tables shall be accessible by means of an access aisle at least 36 in (915 mm) clear between parallel edges of tables or between a wall and the table edges.



People transfer from their wheelchairs to chairs at tables every day and while I grant you it would be a problem if everyone brought their Segway inside for those with disabilities you must find a place to park them.

The fire Department isn't going to count heads and Segways but they are going to make certain that you have clear aisles. While granted if a bunch of people with disabilities show up on Segways then you may have to take out a table or two if you have no other way of maintaining the required ingress and egress for fire safety in your establishment.


Places of public accommodation have had almost 16 years to comply with these issues as required by the ADA and it's time to start paying attention to them. You don't want to be the subject of one of those drive-by lawsuits that they talk so much about in California.

[Exclusive Estates]

so what do you do if a large convention of wheel chair riding people show up to your restaurant? Im not stupid... I owned restaurants and built them! where do you put all those extra chairs and tables? you dont always get full occupancy....lets face it your restaurant does not comply with ADA, and I dont think you reading the regulations on ADA will do more than just that.... words on a page... I actually shop sometimes on my seg.... and I have a XT, its not all that easy, but its not easy to shop at a Ross style store with a shopping cart either, nor in a wheel chair which I have been. No I dont go to the cinema with it... but I do go to the mall... I figure a movie is a sitting venue... and a mall is not.. now I do have the right to take it to the movies... but I'm not that hurt...but others are and they should be able if they choose. there is many places that are wheel chair unfriendly, it doesnt make it right. If you had a fire...(next rebuild you would be forced to be ADA complient) all the people in their wheel chairs would be blocking the other patrons, and the other patrons would be tossing their chairs into the pathways that the wheelchair bound patrons would need to use!... they all burn togeather....

[Timezkware Tim]

so what do you do if a large convention of wheel chair riding people show up to your restaurant?

I serve them. Wheelchair riders don't usually dismount in resaurants, and the chairs go out the back door. Occasionally someone would slide into a booth and fold up the wheelchair. Segs don't fold up, though. Seg riders would dismount in a restaurant, creating two objects 20" wide, but you would already know that if you read my earlier reply.

Im not stupid... I owned restaurants and built them! where do you put all those extra chairs and tables? you dont always get full occupancy

Come on now. How can you make a statement like that? You don't even know me. Yes indeed we are filled to capacity every night by 11:00 PM. That means a line starts on the sidewalk. I have three security people to monitor IDs and head counts.

Lets face it your restaurant does not comply with ADA...

That statement proves that you are now just making things up. We are registered with the CA restaurant association and in total compliance of ADA for over ten years. Please stop the made-up allegations.

I can't even respond to the rest of your rant until you act more responsibly with your statements. If you like, feel free to PM me, but please cut out the flaming.

Tim

[Timezkware Tim]

Aaah well I can see the problem. It's your perspective that's giving you difficulty.

Since the restaurant that you manage only has aisles which are 30 inches wide you should have already been cited for violating the Americans with Disabilities Act. The requirement by the United States Department of Justice is:

5.3 Access Aisles. All accessible fixed tables shall be accessible by means of an access aisle at least 36 in (915 mm) clear between parallel edges of tables or between a wall and the table edge.

Jeez. I mistyped. Yes, indeed, my aisles are 36", not 30" (a wheelchair couldn't get through 30"). It's a busy place. We get wheelchairs all the time.

I also have an electric wheelchair lift to the second level.

Tim

[QuadSquad]

[/font]

Jeez. I mistyped. Yes, indeed, my aisles are 36", not 30" (a wheelchair couldn't get through 30"). It's a busy place. We get wheelchairs all the time.

I also have an electric wheelchair lift to the second level.

Tim

Thank You Tim,

That makes me feel much better and thank you for the wheelchair lift. I for one like to have a choice of where I sit.

I really don't believe that you would object to people with disabilities who use segways from frequenting your restaurant and that you would really find a way of making them feel welcome and accommodating their needs.

I was in a restaurant two days ago parked my Segway next to the table and used it when I needed to go to the bathroom. For those of us who have difficulty walking just getting into the restaurant isn't the whole story, the restrooms are often times a very long way away from our table.:eek:

If you think I have trouble walking normally you should see how much trouble I have walking when I have to go to the restroom.:o

[Exclusive Estates]

if you think a segway takes space... then think what a Lark takes up, not everyone is in a standard wheelchair.... as for 30 vs 36 inches it makes a huge differance! a little more would be better..you called my post a flame and a rant... but in your second post.. its like oops its 36 inches. I have my facts straight... get yours before you reply!

[macgeek]

Tim,
When the day comes, that SEGWAY's are as popular as you suggest, and there are enough of them to cause a fire hazard, Resturaunts / Malls / Theaters / ETC will adapt to fit there customer base.

10 Years ago 'Rascals' were the carrage that were alkward, and annoying and a fire hazard. Now there intergrated into our society with room for them on buses, trains, resturaunts, etc.

People change with the times..

Think back Cell phones in a resturaunt?
And what about these pesky segways? Hmm, This client is using a $5000 device for pleasure / mobility.. I guess they can afford to eat at our resturaunt, AND be generous if we accomodate them.

Jonathan