MS and the Segway

[Jon]

As with "Segway Long Island," I too am a physician, though of a different specialty. I've been using my Segway i-series for the past six weeks as an aid in getting around the rather large teaching hospital where I serve as a consultant.

Ironically, my original interest in the HT was in facilitating my wife's getting around her very-spread-out workplace; I had no personal justification for the Segway aside from the coolness factor. As with Linda and Jill, my wife suffers from multiple sclerosis, with fatigue as her disabling symptom, resulting in loss of balance and cognitive acuity. We took the 5 hour training together at Segway LLC in Bedford. While she had no significant difficulty in balancing on the HT, she found herself very fatigued after an hour on the device. As a result, she was not interested in acquiring a Segway at the time. To my personal surprise, I found that I had no plantar-fasciitis-associated foot pain after the full 5-hour training, thus I was the one who ended up with the Segway given my commercial/business use of the product.

I would greatly appreciate any comments from Segway users with MS regarding their Segway experiences that I could convey to my wife; she may reconsider an HT purchase at some time in the future, perhaps when the smaller, lighter p-model is released. Please feel free to respond via e-mail if you wish; I promise that your confidentiality will be assured.

Thanks for your time.

-= Jon =-

[Lazarus]

Hello--
I'll be glad to keep you updated. I too have concerns and am aware of potential problems......

Linda

[pam]

quote:Originally posted by Jon

As with "Segway Long Island," I too am a physician, though of a different specialty. I've been using my Segway i-series for the past six weeks as an aid in getting around the rather large teaching hospital where I serve as a consultant.

Ironically, my original interest in the HT was in facilitating my wife's getting around her very-spread-out workplace; I had no personal justification for the Segway aside from the coolness factor. As with Linda and Jill, my wife suffers from multiple sclerosis, with fatigue as her disabling symptom, resulting in loss of balance and cognitive acuity. We took the 5 hour training together at Segway LLC in Bedford. While she had no significant difficulty in balancing on the HT, she found herself very fatigued after an hour on the device. As a result, she was not interested in acquiring a Segway at the time. To my personal surprise, I found that I had no plantar-fasciitis-associated foot pain after the full 5-hour training, thus I was the one who ended up with the Segway given my commercial/business use of the product.

I would greatly appreciate any comments from Segway users with MS regarding their Segway experiences that I could convey to my wife; she may reconsider an HT purchase at some time in the future, perhaps when the smaller, lighter p-model is released. Please feel free to respond via e-mail if you wish; I promise that your confidentiality will be assured.

Thanks for your time.

-= Jon =-



Jon, I don't have MS, but I will tell you from my experience that my initial time on the Segway, while I was fine-tuning my balance, etc., cause me to experience - of all things, extremely tired feet! Now that I've been on the machine for 2 months, I can go the same distance and not experience that at all. I do think there's a break-in period when we're all getting our Seg-legs, which may well extend beyond the training - mine did. I think my tendency to clinch my muscles (they kept telling me in training to drop my shoulders <G>)probably extended even to my feet. It may well be that when the smaller model comes out, your wife will be more comfortable with it, and she might not experience the same degree of tiredness she did on the i. Even though the training is not difficult and in many ways the Segway is intuitive, it still requires a lot from some of us during that initial period. Once we get all the new "behaviors" chunked together, the demand lessens considerably.

[jillmac]

When I went to the try out in LA back in December I was very pleased. I had worried about dizziness and lack of balance and also vertigo. It doesn't take too much to spark an attack of vertigo at times with me.

I was surprised that the movement had no effect on vertigo, in fact was much less a problem than just riding as a passenger in a car.

I did find that my legs were tired, I assume mainly because I was using muscles I don't usually use and getting used to doing strange things!

My feeling was that as it became more of a natural experience then the tiredness would probably ease up. I too suffer fatigue and have limited some activities because of the walking involved. A lot of times I can get to places but getting back home again or back to the car is very difficult and can leave me exhausted for a day or so.

I look at the Segway as 'setting me free' and being able to join in a lot of things I had 'put away.'

Like Lazarus - I would be happy to keep you appraised of my progress with Segway once I have taken delivery.

I have a two hour training this weekend and will let you know how it goes.

Jill

[Jon]

Thank you very much for your comments. I agree with Pam that the Segway seems easier and easier to ride with greater experience/time. Linda and Jill, I would very much appreciate hearing of your experiences over time, and appreciate your willingness to share. I will be sharing your comments with my sweetheart as well.

-= Jon =-

[marshai]

Hi Jon--
I have MS and love my Segway, although I experience what I think your wife experiences also. I was exhausted and my legs were like jelly after my 2 hour training session. However, I expected that because I knew my legs get tired after standing for twenty minutes or so. A "danger" with the Segway is that I don't really notice how tired my legs are until I get off my Segway. What I try to do when I use my Segway is to take a break after every 15 minutes I'm gliding--if I'm about town I bring a book and camp out on a bench and read for 5 minutes and then I'm good for another 15 minutes of gliding. If I overdo it, I make sure I dismount near a bench or a chair and rest up before trying to walk even a few steps. After a long outdoor excursion I sit in my car for several minutes before trying to maneuver my Segway up the ramp and into the trunk. If I'm gliding through the hallways at work and a colleague stops me to talk, I always move us to a nearby sitting spot and get off and sit down while we talk--that way my leg energy is spent moving from place to place and not in standing around. With this type of pacing I find the Segway has been a wonderful addition to my life!
--Marsha

[jamie4kids]

I am 46 years old and have had MS for 7 years. I can still walk. I get easily fatigued especially going to the mall. I can either go to one store or I will get a wheelchair. Are these easy to put in and take out of the car? I would love to hear more with MS about these. I was looking at a scooter, but I hate seeing things in a sitting position as you cant see as well as when your standing.

[Jon]

Dear Segway-chatters (with specific greetings to Pam, jillmac, Linda, and the others who responded to my original 2003 post),

After watching me use my i167 without incident for over 3 1/2 years, my wife's interest in the Segway was rekindled when a bright red i180 caught her eye in Bedford where my i167 received his 14.2 upgrade.

With support and encouragement from Judy and Mary at Segway (thank you!), and Mary Beth Alosa at Segway of Northern New England in Concord, NH, (thank you too!), a new, red i180 has joined our household.

I'd be very interested in any "new" thoughts or advice from Segway users with MS, particularly with fatigue and balance issues as the major disabling symptoms? Any thoughts/advice about the SegSeat?

Thanks for your time and trouble.

-= Jon =-

[polo_pro]

I'd be very interested in any "new" thoughts or advice from Segway users with MS, particularly with fatigue and balance issues as the major disabling symptoms? Any thoughts/advice about the SegSeat?
I'm not disabled, but I do have to deal with fatigue issues when I do long distance gliding. The SegSeat is indispensible. One of the best features is how you can deploy it or retract it without ever stopping or getting off. It's impressive to be able to do all this at full speed, though I'm sure it's not recommended.

I guarantee that the number of times you glide and the number of hours you glide will increase if you get a segseat. And isn't that what owning a segway is all about? Maximizing usability and enjoyment!

ps - Also if someone's condition is deteriorating, the segseat may allow them to continue using the segway longer. To me getting an extra year's worth of use out of my segway would make the price worth it alone!

[pam]

Welcome back, Jon! And congrats to your wife for your newest "family member" - May you experience great Segway times together.
Pam

[Tarkus]

As a Segseat user since day one, order #4, I love it.
Not so much for riding but for resting.

I'm sure you have seen these links but I'll post again anyway.

http://segwayman.blogspot.com/

http://www.digitalthreads.com/segway/

http://www.bostoncure.org:8080/index.pl?mode=&issue=20060607

Of course feel free to join us at www.DRAFT.cc

Regards,
Alan

[Jon]

Dear Plomoh, Pam, and Alan,

Thank you very much for your kind, supportive comments and the links to relevant sites. We've a SegSeat on the way, which will hopefully completely finesse the fatigue issue for Suzan.

I'm looking forward to our gliding together!

And, to make things even more interesting, Suzan will be joining the "elite" group of Segway+service dog partners (we know of one already active Seg+pup glider) when she officially receives her service dog within a few months. In the meantime, we'll be including the Segway in the training of her pup.

Finally, I'm happy to announce that Suzan has now joined Segway Chat as "Cruizin_Suzan". I know that our community will greet her as warmly as you have supported me over the years.

Thanks for being here!
-= Jon =-

[jehemer]

Last weekend took my new i180 to a football tail gate. Took it right in the game up to the H/C parking area, or as we refered to it as "rock star seating"
Couldn't have done it without the seg. people were very comfortable around it and the segway generated a lot of conversation, wonderment and cheers of "segwaaay" from overserved coeds. Great fun and an incredible machine.
I had two guys in power scooters ask about it and both said the 5k price was reasonable compared to what a power chair cost. Pluss it gives you a little workout on the trip and much cooler.

[Agent]

Jon,

I have MS and have had my Segway for 2 1/2 years. It has been a real godsend for me. I went to school at Rice for 1 1/2 years and got around the campus great. Without the Segway, the mile plus walk would have ruined the classroom experience.

My issues are Cognitive, Fatigue, Balance and the Montel-like issues, burning in the hands and feet. While I credit Low Dose Naltrexone for helping the fatigue, the GENERATION ONE Segway is GREAT for stabilizing balance.

WARNING: I currently have an i2 in my possession while my Segway gets the software upgrade. I cannot see how someone with MS with even SLIGHT balance issues will be able to ride this without being scared and put themselves in danger.

Folks just don't underand when you cannot control balance. The LeanSteer acts like many newbies demo'ing the Generation One for the first time. Going 12.5, this newbie banlance wobble could be a wipe out.

[jehemer]

Agent;

I agree before I purchased my i180 I test glided a i2. The steering was OK for my limited mobility issues but I felt if I was to need stability it wouldn't be there and I could very easily head into the shrubs. I think there is a place for the first generation machines and I don't understand the logic of going all i2 at the drop of a hat. My dealer also noted that several customers were snapping up the i180 instead of the i2.

[bystander]

Agent;

I agree before I purchased my i180 I test glided a i2. The steering was OK for my limited mobility issues but I felt if I was to need stability it wouldn't be there and I could very easily head into the shrubs. I think there is a place for the first generation machines and I don't understand the logic of going all i2 at the drop of a hat. My dealer also noted that several customers were snapping up the i180 instead of the i2.jehemer,

Regarding the "logic",

From many people's point of view, whether they are disabled or not, the logic may not be very apparent, or seems very twisted.

Dean Kamen spoke about this at the recent DRAFT awards dinner, and at the recent Segfest, both events which I attended.

I am reluctant to attempt to paraphrase Dean's words, but I'll give it a shot.

If the PT gets too much of a reputation as a medical assistive device, legislation will be created to regulate it. This is because medical devices are subject to closer scrutiny than ordinary consumer devices.

This will drive the cost up considerably, as many studies and revisions have to be made for years on end to gain approval.

That's the gist of what Dean said. He is not anti-disabled, but he is concerned that the PT should be treated as a consumer device and not a medical one. Not even a hint of medical applicability should be expressed when evaluating a purchase by anyone involved in the sale (salesmen, dealers, reps, or Segway, Inc.) If any individual, as an ordinary consumer, decides that they can purchase and operate a consumer device in a safe manner, that's great.

The rest of this post is my commentary, not necessarily Mr. Kamen's.

When discussing "driving the cost up", I get the idea it could be possibly as far as up to the i-bot level. This would have a huge impact on sales.

It is an ironic situation, if a consumer device becomes widely adopted by the disabled community, the consequence is to cause the people who could benefit from it the most to not be able to afford it anymore.

In a way, it's a similar situation to "Kleenex" and "Xerox". Those terms were copyrighted, but wide public use diluted the brand, and now they are not protected. If a significant fraction of PT users are disabled, (moreso than the proportion among the general population), it could draw attention of lawsuits and legislation.

Maybe the i2, appealing less to some of the disabled community, will allow the non-disabled proportion of the general population to grow at a higher rate, keeping the "balance", so there would be less legal ground to subvert the classification of the EPMAD.

I do realize that a number of folks among the disabled community see the gen2 as a side step or even a step backwards from the "universal access" concept.

I am not disabled myself, and I don't mean to annoy anyone with my comments. I'm just trying to explain my understanding of this "logic" behind creating a successor of the gen1 that is not as disabled friendly.

[pam]

Not to mention that the feds could literally shut Segway down, if they thought INC was making any sort of medical applicability claim. It took YEARS before the iBot was approved -

Pam

[Tarkus]

jehemer,

Regarding the "logic",

From many people's point of view, whether they are disabled or not, the logic may not be very apparent, or seems very twisted.

Dean Kamen spoke about this at the recent DRAFT awards dinner, and at the recent Segfest, both events which I attended.

I am reluctant to attempt to paraphrase Dean's words, but I'll give it a shot.

If the PT gets too much of a reputation as a medical assertive device, legislation will be created to regulate it. This is because medical devices are subject to closer scrutiny than ordinary consumer devices.

This will drive the cost up considerably, as many studies and revisions have to be made for years on end to gain approval.

That's the gist of what Dean said. He is not anti-disabled, but he is concerned that the PT should be treated as a consumer device and not a medical one. Not even a hint of medical applicability should be expressed when evaluating a purchase by anyone involved in the sale (salesmen, dealers, reps, or Segway, Inc.) If any individual, as an ordinary consumer, decides that they can purchase and operate a consumer device in a safe manner, that's great.

The rest of this post is my commentary, not necessarily Mr. Kamen's.

When discussing "driving the cost up", I get the idea it could be possibly as far as up to the i-bot level. This would have a huge impact on sales.

It is an ironic situation, if a consumer device becomes widely adopted by the disabled community, the consequence is to cause the people who could benefit from it the most to not be able to afford it anymore.

In a way, it's a similar situation to "Kleenex" and "Xerox". Those terms were copyrighted, but wide public use diluted the brand, and now they are not protected. If a significant fraction of PT users are disabled, (moreso than the proportion among the general population), it could draw attention of lawsuits and legislation.

Maybe the i2, appealing less to some of the disabled community, will allow the non-disabled proportion of the general population to grow at a higher rate, keeping the "balance", so there would be less legal ground to subvert the classification of the EPMAD.

I do realize that a number of folks among the disabled community see the gen2 as a side step or even a step backwards from the "universal access" concept.

I am not disabled myself, and I don't mean to annoy anyone with my comments. I'm just trying to explain my understanding of this "logic" behind creating a successor of the gen1 that is not as disabled friendly.


I think you summed that up pretty nicely.

I also heard the speech twice, well a third time on the flight home, and I heard what you and every other person in the room have heard and known for years.

The Segway is not an approved medical device

Never has been ,never will be and that just the way we want it.
There are laws in place to protect the use as is, FDA approval would be a hindrance.

That speech, IMO, was aimed carefully at the marketing and selling of the product. Not the use of the end user.

Gen 2 will be worked around, I've seen a few do-it-yourself concepts that will work.

I had a chance to spend about 10 mins. with DK and one of the things we spoke about was liability.

Not matter if it's the disabled, Polo, towing things, adding on non INC products all carry a risk that if push came to shove people would be hard pressed to win in court. On that we agree. He was really more surprised at the way the Seg is being used as opposed to the original concept, transportation. Polo, Disabled, Advertising etc.

As long as a representative of INC.does not say those uses are OK.

So on this one it was "SELLER BEWARE" or the hammer may fall on INC.

It's a bit of a "love/hate" deal, did anyone else notice when a question came up about the National Park access, the speaker noted the inroads being made by DRAFT.

As far as offering both products, it just does not make sense for such a tiny company that is already struggling to find it's core market.

Pleasure to meet you at the Fest Bystander, nice looking ride you have.

Regards,
Alan

[driley]

I think that the reason there is any issue at all is because the Segway is so new and unique. Automobile companies do not need to distance themselves from the disabled community, and do in fact help with making cars work for people with disabilities.

Segway needs to establish their product as a mainstream consumer product and not have it pigeon holed as a device for the disabled. It is what is best for the company financially. That is my take on it anyways.

Devin

[Tarkus]

I think that the reason there is any issue at all is because the Segway is so new and unique. Automobile companies do not need to distance themselves from the disabled community, and do in fact help with making cars work for people with disabilities.

Segway needs to establish their product as a mainstream consumer product and not have it pigeon holed as a device for the disabled. It is what is best for the company financially. That is my take on it anyways.

Devin

Agreed.

I find it interesting that this idea of mobility bothers the able bodied more than the disabled.

The best way to "mainstream" the product is to sell units to the open market and get those units out where they can be seen.

The problem so far is that there are simply too few Segways in the hands of private users.

The "pigeon Hole" effect is due to poor marketing, not the use by the disabled.

Regards,
Alan

[polo_pro]

After Dean's talk, I can see why Segway INC wants nothing to do with the Segseat. I'm amazed they don't prohibit their dealers from carrying the item!

I guess there are legitimate non-disabled applications which can be done with it. So an out and out ban might be overkill, and as you might expect nothing in the Segseat's documentation indicates that it is a medical device. But now I'm a bit worried about the FDA intervening.

[polo_pro]

He was really more surprised at the way the Seg is being used as opposed to the original concept, transportation. Polo, Disabled, Advertising etc.
Hmmmm...I guess "long distance gliding" must have been an intended use since it isn't on the list, eh? 8^) 8^) 8^)

ps - I thought his talk might be more appropriate for a dealer conference (like back in June or July). But I imagine with the i2 being released, they didn't want Dean speaking words of gloom.

[Tarkus]

As long as INC and its representatives have been playing by the rules there is nothing to worry about.

After sitting in on the Legislative portion of the fest, if I were able bodied I would be far more concerned about staying legal in the places with "sunset Laws".

The FDA is the least of the problems.

Regards,
Alan

[Agent]

Even if I didn't have MS, I'd like my Gen 1 better. I ride on a bumpy road every day and the Gen one is more stable.

Give me the fact I've done both. And you couldn't pick me out of 2 people as the one with MS.

Besides the MS issue, my daughter and wife, who see me on my Seg every day, commented on the i2 the same way, at different times and different places...

"That looks CHEAP". (against my justification, BTW).

Now, they aren't disabled, but they aren't buying, either.

The Emperor wears sexy clothes, but they sure are SKIMPY!

[Tarkus]

Hmmmm...I guess "long distance gliding" must have been an intended use since it isn't on the list, eh? 8^) 8^) 8^)

ps - I thought his talk might be more appropriate for a dealer conference (like back in June or July). But I imagine with the i2 being released, they didn't want Dean speaking words of gloom.

Yep, He left you out !!!!! You must be OK.

And I agree that was a Dealer meeting speech, not the best choice for the enthusiast.

Alan

[KSagal]

I think that the reason there is any issue at all is because the Segway is so new and unique. Automobile companies do not need to distance themselves from the disabled community, and do in fact help with making cars work for people with disabilities.

Segway needs to establish their product as a mainstream consumer product and not have it pigeon holed as a device for the disabled. It is what is best for the company financially. That is my take on it anyways.

Devin

I have considered this one. I don't think I have ever seen an ad from Ford or GM or any manufacturer that indicated that their car was good for people with disabilities. I would be interested if anyone could find an ad like that. I am curious as to how they would present that...

My Brother ownes a company that retrofits automobilies (and boats as well as other devices) for the disabled community and I had alway thought that most of this work was done by after market people, not the original manufacturers...

[tkwatson]

My MS is only barely progressing but I have found that the 14 block walk to the Portland MAX train to work, or the all-too-important 12 block walk to my local coffee bar became too much.

Purchased my Seg on Aug 22, '06 and it has revolutionized my commute.

I have fatigue and balance problems--certainly after a several block walk.
I knew I could stand in one place for long periods of time, hence my decision to buy the Seg.

I have gotten pretty comfortable on it, aside from some stiffness in my legs.

I advise anyone suffering from the fatigue/balance/rubbery leg thing to give it a try. It does take a little practice--I liken it to learning to drive a stick shift--but after a very short time its perfectly natural.

Now I look forward to going to places that a couple of months ago I would have avoided as too far to walk.

[Tarkus]

I have considered this one. I don't think I have ever seen an ad from Ford or GM or any manufacturer that indicated that their car was good for people with disabilities. I would be interested if anyone could find an ad like that. I am curious as to how they would present that...

My Brother ownes a company that retrofits automobilies (and boats as well as other devices) for the disabled community and I had alway thought that most of this work was done by after market people, not the original manufacturers...

Karl,

You are correct. Any auto I've bought had a third party conversion.

Again, the problem won't come from the buyer it would come from the seller.

Anyone who has studied this subject needs to understand that we don't want the Segway seen as anything but what it is.

A consumer product of universal design.

Like I said before, the "perception" problem stems from the fact that not enough of the original target market bought.

As long as INC watches it's dealers and what they say to the customer they will have no problem.

Now go out and get a friend to buy a Segway, it's in all our best interest.

Regards,
Alan

[driley]

I have considered this one. I don't think I have ever seen an ad from Ford or GM or any manufacturer that indicated that their car was good for people with disabilities. I would be interested if anyone could find an ad like that. I am curious as to how they would present that...

My Brother ownes a company that retrofits automobilies (and boats as well as other devices) for the disabled community and I had alway thought that most of this work was done by after market people, not the original manufacturers...

Karl,

You are correct. The work is not done by the manufactures themselves but by aftermarket companies. I know that some of the manufacturers do assist buyers with disabilities financially with modifications. So they are actively working to make their products work for everyone.

http://www.toyota.com/html/mobility/faq.html
http://www.toyota.com/about/news/community/2004/05/18-1-rampvan.html
http://www.toyota.com/html/mobility/converter.html

I do not expect that this is something that Segway should or needs to do. I wish more Segways were in the hands of the public though, which I think would make this more of a non issue.

As far as I know, the FDA is not getting involved in making the car an approved medical device, even though it is likely the most universally used device by those with disabilities.

I have had a disability since I was 11 years old. When I turned 16 I had new freedoms as the result of getting a drivers license. A similar thing happened when I was 42 and got a Segway.

So as far as I am concerned, the Segway is by its very design something that would naturally be used by those with disabilities, in the same way automobiles are.

Devin

[cruiter]

Having just taken delivery of my new i2 yesterday and will use it purely for pleasure, I'm one of the private users.

As to the "Medical" use of it, you can think of it as a car or van used in that fashion. They don't have to go throught the scruitiny with FDA, however aftermarket deviceses that are fitted to it for that purpose may be subject to extreme testing.Agreed.

I find it interesting that this idea of mobility bothers the able bodied more than the disabled.

The best way to "mainstream" the product is to sell units to the open market and get those units out where they can be seen.

The problem so far is that there are simply too few Segways in the hands of private users.

The "pigeon Hole" effect is due to poor marketing, not the use by the disabled.

Regards,
Alan

[Tarkus]

Having just taken delivery of my new i2 yesterday and will use it purely for pleasure, I'm one of the private users.

As to the "Medical" use of it, you can think of it as a car or van used in that fashion. They don't have to go throught the scruitiny with FDA, however aftermarket deviceses that are fitted to it for that purpose may be subject to extreme testing.

What does that have to do with my comment ?
Did I mention the automobile?

I think I'm on record here, It's not an approved medical device.

Alan

[Agent]

I don't think anyone around here, who actually deals with Disability issues, is looking for a handout or looking for Medicaid (or Medicare) to pick up the tab for our favorite TOY. I think we all can see that this is a wacky idea. Is this what brings non-disabled people into this section to defend and protect the legal defense funds of Segway? You should see how this looks in print on this side of the fence...

Those of us who enjoy the benefits of The Seg, more than likely found the benefits to us, healthwise, serendipitiously.

As an example, someone who lives in the Deep South, who may only live 5 city blocks from where they work (let's say downtown Houston), may not walk to work because in the middle of summer, they'd be dripping wet after 4 blocks. So they either take the bus or drive the car, or (a lightbulb!) use a Segway? What did this have to do with Health? What if the walk was only one block before the Sweat? Two blocks? Three Blocks? Does extending the number of blocks without causing a PROBLEM worth looking at the Segway?
Apparently not it involves someone with a disability.

And someone who has SLIGHT mobility issues, may buy an SUV instead of a Prius. Not because it looks good or because it's bigger, but maybe because it's easier to get in and out of? Maybe... Because they can afford it? Certainly.

...and The Car Salesmen doesn't give a crap about my so called problem.

These are choices that we've all made and some disabled are not able to pony up to take advantage of little things like an SUV to get in and out of better. Or a Segway to be more productive.

And that nice, little sloped curb on every street corner that's so dang perfect for our Precious? I wonder how THAT got there...

:-)

[jehemer]

What are we attempting to achieve? We want more segways out in the general population. That fact will make them more afordable, will make them more acceptable and less of a novility. Right now for many people they are just too expensive unless you really need one. My friends love my Segway but they wouldn't buy one. Pepole at my daughters cross country meets are impressed by the mobility and ease of use, people at football game tailgates love it for getting around, state fairs, tons of other applications. They love it but it costs too much. People with disabilities are going to buy them and use them, can't run it thru the insurance but big deal, general acceptance by the population is what will sell the units and different people like different styles of machines, features, colors endless list. Endless possibilities.

[KSagal]

I see this issue from my own perspective, as do we all, and I will not pretend to be objective...

I am a legally disabled Veteran, having had significant damage to my right knee, and having it repaired to the best ability of the Army, over 25 years ago.

I also have complementary damage to my other knee, a typical result of limping (Swaggering?) for the last quarter century...

Additionally, arthritis is becoming a major issue, again typically, in situations like mine...

All that said, regardless of documentation, I have many more good days than bad. For all reasonable intentions, I am an abled bodied person with a similar build to my father, and the all too common 40 something year old expansionism in my belly and butt.

My take on segways as a medical devise, or as a device for the disabled, is as follows...

I do not believe that a segway is a medical device in any way.

I do believe that segways are designed in a universalist manner.

I do not believe that minivans are a medical device.

I do believe that minivans are designed in a universalist manner. (Or at least more universalist than many vehicles.)

I do not believe that segways should be marketed to people with disabilities. I do not believe that segways should be marketed to people who are bald. I do not believe that segways should be marketed to people who cannot pronounce the word "nuclear".

I do believe that segways should be marketed to people. (No adjective needed!)

I believe the problem lies in that the segway is so well designed, it often needs no modification to be operated by people with disabilities that they then state so too readily...

If I buy a car, and can not use my knee that day, I need to operate it in a manner that it was not designed for, and likely will need to modify it to be usable by me. Clearly, even though I may choose to drive to a neighbor's house, where I may have walked on another day, no one will confuse my car which has been modified as a medical device.

If I buy a segway, and that day my knee does not work, and use it to go to a neighbor's house, where I may have walked on another day, it is not so obvious that the segway is not a medical device...

In 1979, shortly after one of my several surgeries, I sponsored several wheelchair races. We regularly got in trouble for this type of event, as can be imagined, and were told repeatedly that they were not designed as racing devices. Being 19, disabled, and in the army hospital, it is not too difficult to imagine that we did them any way...

We often would have "able bodied" participants in the wheelchairs. All racers were only required to go from point a to point b without motorised help (This included elevators, you had to use the ramps)

All of my ramblings are to a point... Some medical devices are not used as medical devices. Some non medical devices are used as medical devices. Some medical devices are indeed used as medical devices, etc, etc, etc...

We could argue any point and likely win the argument of the moment.

Segway, Inc. however, deals with a different reality. If anyone, and I mean anyone, presents the segway as a device that is an aide to the disabled, and the FDA decides to act on that, then Segway Inc gets a 800 pound gorrilla added to their back. There is already too much there now...

At this point, the law is still the law. And the law is that the Segway is not a medical device, and we all must understand that...

My mother has a driver's liscense. She is not a good driver. In my opinion, she never was. But the law says that if she does this and that, she is a good driver. It does not consider her ability to back up nor the way she parallel parks (or doesn't) or the amount of accidents that occur in her wake. It only considers what it considers.

I believe Dean when he says that we need to make an obvious and clear distinction that Segways are not medical devices and are not intended to be. I do not have a problem with that. Logic may not follow that, and logic may not have much to do with the word of the law, but my experience has been that the law is about it's own words in it's function, even though most of us would rather it be about the "spirit" of the law...

This I do know. If we allow a medical implication to be inferred, sales will hurt in the non-medical markets (The much larger one) and if the FDA gets involved, then segways will be far more expensive or not available at all to everyone....

This is only my personal opinion, and should not be confused as any other position or representing anything else...

[RAG1247]

Imo, DK stated that without question, the Segway is not a medical device and that no one should infer that it is suitable for use by anyone with a disability, regardless of whether or not such person derives some benefit from its use. If my memory is right DK also stated that if a consumer bought a Segway and that its use improved such consumer’s life, that was great, but again there would never be a statement by Segway that the Segway offers benefits to people with disabilities.

I also think that there must be more to this situation that we are not aware of, or that some recent events must have been a contributing factor to DK’s remarks.

Segway's site states:

"It is important to note that the Segway HT has not been designed, tested, or approved as a medical device."

One has to search their site to find such statement. I suspect that additional notices may need to be more prominent on segway’s website emphasizing this point.

If my understanding of the ADA law is correct, I believe that anyone with a disability can use any product ( within reason) to assist such a person with his or her disability, regardless of whether or not the manufacturer or supplier of the item in question states that it is or is not a medical device.

I notice now that Ontario is going to run a pilot program in Canada as follows:

LONDON, ON, Oct. 20 /CNW/ - The McGuinty government is launching a test pilot to expand mobility options for persons with disabilities, letter carriers and police services, Transportation Minister Donna Cansfield announced today in London.

"Allowing the use of Segways, a two-wheeled electric personal
transportation device, brings us one step closer to having an Ontario that is accessible and inclusive to all," said Cansfield. "We are very excited that today, we can offer persons who have a disability a wider range of accessible transportation choices."

Under the pilot test, persons with disabilities who are 14 years of age or over, letter carriers and police may use Segways on roadways and sidewalks.

One might read the above to indicate that a “government” is now inferring that the Segway is a medical device. For that matter, if Segway chat or segamerica has a section on the use of a Segway by persons with disabilities - is that making a similar inference?

At best it is a catch 22 situation. We all have seen how people with disabilities have benefited and enhanced their lives using a Segway.

I think if Segway continues to emphasize that the Segway is not a medical device, nor is it intended to be one, I would not think they could get in trouble.

I am sure we will hear more on such topic in the future.

[Suzined]

tkwatson, thank you for your comments regarding balance and fatigue, which are my limitations. No MS but severe war injuries. Any comments on "practical" reasons to get a Segway? I've had so much fun gliding I can't help but think of a Segway as a toy. Incidentally, my doctor has recommended a Segway--I think this qualifies it as a medical expense.

[Tarkus]

tkwatson, thank you for your comments regarding balance and fatigue, which are my limitations. No MS but severe war injuries. Any comments on "practical" reasons to get a Segway? I've had so much fun gliding I can't help but think of a Segway as a toy. Incidentally, my doctor has recommended a Segway--I think this qualifies it as a medical expense.

No, not realy.

A doctor can prescribe as he wishes. Doesn't even have to be an approved device or medication for the stated purpose of the drug co./maker.

But your problem is with insurance paying. Some carries may have a # for the Seg but it's usually a "no pay" number.

Now on the other hand , if you have a medical spending account there is an outside chance. But that's your own money.

Many have tried and I wish you luck.

Be sure to visit ww.DRAFT.cc .

Regards,
Alan

[Sven]

This thread seems to have morphed into a basic question for our corner of Segway Chat. What should be the priority for those of us with disabilities? Should we be concerned primarily with sales of Segways, or should we be advocates for the right of the disabled to use the new technology offered by Segway if it is beneficial for them? If it is not the latter, why have this forum at all? All members of the disabled community should recognize that whatever legal rights we now enjoy did not just happen. They were the product of advocacy. If changes in present rules and regulations are warranted, they will result from continued advocacy. And who better to be such advocates than us?

I would also like to sharpen the semantics regarding a "medical device". It would be much more accurate to say that the Segway is not an approved medical device. My Segway is a medical device. It is by definition a device and it is medical in that I purchased it and used it to help mitigate my disability. Whether or not a Segway should be on the various approved lists is open to debate. Leaving aside the thorny issue of reimbursement, I for one believe that all medically-helpful technologies should be so recognized, regardless of INC's position. Obviously, I find DRAFT arguments to be very compelling.

[polo_pro]

I would think this specific board in the Segway Chat forum serves as a bridge for new readers who are better served by DRAFT.

[Ludwigs]

Jon,

I was diagnosed with MS about 12 years ago, and didn"t get my first Segway until about 5 years ago. As the disease progressed the Seg became my main tool for locomotion, and now I always travel with it. Fatigue and balance are my main concerns. Early on, I found out that the balancing done by the Segway relieves my nervous system of this task, and allows me to rest much more, while on the Seg, than I would have by just standimg. I noticed, for instance, that when standing by while someone tried it out, I fatigued to such an extent, that I needed to get back up on the machine, in order to rest. I have been able to travel to many countries, and to see so much more since I got mine.
I use three different vehicles for transport, (from a Miata to a Lexus) and I put the Seg inside, or on the hitch mounted hauler.
I would love to give the view from a mid-60's guy with MS, but it is perfect for a dog walk outside, and the critters need to go gliding. Please feel free to ask about anything concerning MS and Segways.

[Suzined]

As usual, I didn't clearly explain my point. If a doctor recommends you use a Segway, I believe ylou can write it off an a medical expense on your Federal tax return, subject to all the usual whereas and wherefore. Think of it asd a 10 to 25% discount. Talking your insurance company (or VA/MediCare) into paying for one is, as pointed out, another matter.

[Tarkus]

As usual, I didn't clearly explain my point. If a doctor recommends you use a Segway, I believe ylou can write it off an a medical expense on your Federal tax return, subject to all the usual whereas and wherefore. Think of it asd a 10 to 25% discount. Talking your insurance company (or VA/MediCare) into paying for one is, as pointed out, another matter.

That's possible.

It's when folks depend on their medical Insurance/Medicare to cover it is when they are set up for disappointment.

All the beast,
Alan

[Tarkus]

I would think this specific board in the Segway Chat forum serves as a bridge for new readers who are better served by DRAFT.

plomoh has summed it up.

At one time this was not a bad place for information, that has changed a bit. Seems as though others have been avoiding this section as of late.

As stated in the quote above www.DRAFT.cc is your best place for information for the "mobility challenged" and the Segway.


Sven,

I believe it is a benefit of all Seggers that the PT takes off big time.
The irony will be that it's this market that opens doors for the others.

That's not to say I give demos because I don't.
That's what dealers are for. I find that most questions are mobility related anyway so I send them to DRAFT. The sticker could have alot to do with that.

When asked I give Segways web site and let it go from there.

I promote the Segway by responsible use in places that other Seggers can't. That's the best publicity I can give them. With time the same places will hopefully open the door to all.

Regards,
Alan

[Sven]

Tarkus:

As a newcomer, I've learned a lot from your posts and responses to my questions. I also understand your point of view regarding promoting Segway sales as a way to help disabled users. The point I attempted to make was that on this sub-forum on Segway Chat the interests of the disabled who use a Segway should have priority, not just those of Segway. In any case, thanks for your help thus far.

Sven

[pam]

Sven, the "reason" for this forum was originally simply to have a place (in essence, an archival forum) for the posts of those who were disabled and had found the Segway useful in their lives. It was felt that given the volume of the posts in the main HT forum that this subset of posts (which we felt were valuable, but fairly small) could easily be lost, and by having a separate forum, those with an interest in these issues could more easily search for information.

Segway has stated all along that their products are not medical devices, they've not been subjected to the rigorous testing necessary nor have they been approved as medical devices. They are general use products. Segway has no intention of going through the, what, 15 year process? to get them approved as a medical device. And, bottom line, if Segway employees or representatives represent the pt as a medical device, it's not a case of "worrying about sales" - it's a case that the company could be shut down completely by the FDA, and there would be no Segway pts available for either community. To try and force the pt to be recognized as a medical device may end up shooting yourself in your own foot. That's a "may" - because I don't know what the outcome would be if non-employees tried to represent the pt as a medical device, I'll be honest.

The fact that so many of the disabled community have found the pt (at least the gen1s, and maybe for some, even the gen2s) useful is a delightful bonus, and I'm assuming we all celebrate that. At least, I do.

To assume that because it's been useful and that some of the owners have medical issues that it must then be considered a "medical device" - I'm not sure the logic follows. Cushioned pads in front of the sink make it possible for some people with disabilities to stand long enough to do dishes, but does that make them a medical device? I'm not sure where one draws the line.

However, IMHO, what you do with your insurance and the IRS is between you, your doctor, the insurance company, your accountant, and the IRS.

As Alan and Plomoh have both stated, DRAFT is an excellent resource, too.

Pam

[Agent]

Pam,

I think I would have a better chance, writing off my Segway, (with it's Ad Wheels, of course!), and an advertizing expense than I would writing it off as a Medical Device!

While this may be humorous, you would not believe (okay, you would!) the amount of business I write by having the Segway. Just gave a new Dentist a demoi and I'm going to pick up the business.

The 12 competitors before me, told a similary, but without a Segway.

If that wasn't a legitimate, necessary, advertizing tool, I just don't know what one would look like ;-)

[Joost De Smet]

As an Ms patient ans Segway user, I recognize the problem. I solved it by buying a SEGSEAT and now I can sit while gliding. I now glide around for miles and hours, having a new life. www.segseat.com. It may seem expensive but it's worth every cent. I just don't know if it can by mounted on the new generation of seways but they'll find something out then soon.

Joost De Smet, Belgium
joost@bravissimo.be

[Hobbes]

To assume that because it's been useful and that some of the owners have medical issues that it must then be considered a "medical device" - I'm not sure the logic follows.

A case on point: A stick in the hand. For one person it is to hold marchmallows in the fire, or to help to steady himself when hiking with an ungainly backpack. For another it is a cane, a medical device.

There appears to be more than one valid definition for a medical device...one based on its design, the other on the purpose it serves.

[Tarkus]

A case on point: A stick in the hand. For one person it is to hold marchmallows in the fire, or to help to steady himself when hiking with an ungainly backpack. For another it is a cane, a medical device.

There appears to be more than one valid definition for a medical device...one based on its design, the other on the purpose it serves.

Very astute as both of those definitions are met under U.S. law.

You have very nicely described "Universal Design".

Regards,
Alan

PS-The Segseat will not fit Gen II machines. After I spoke to Mario he has no plans to redesign the product. It is a fine product, I bought one of the first units.

Fear not as I'm sure there are many others are tinkering with a new seat.

[Hobbes]

Here's another one: Can an airplane be an ambulance? Maybe they shouldn't be given landing priority since they weren't designed as ambulances or medical devices.

(Maybe you can tell from the tone of the above that I have been reading your thread over on the Disney site.)

[Tarkus]

Here's another one: Can an airplane be an ambulance? Maybe they shouldn't be given landing priority since they weren't designed as ambulances or medical devices.

(Maybe you can tell from the tone of the above that I have been reading your thread over on the Disney site.)


That thread was an amazing look into other peoples thought process.
Good people, bad reasoning.

Or even worse they believe whatever "The Mouse" tells them.

All the best,
Alan

[mwnaido]

I have MS and have used my segway for the past 1.5 years. I can no longer walk unaided or distances. My segway is a lifesaver especially when I need to watch my kids play soccer. The fields are 100 yards away but no problem with my segway. I too get tired after a while but this should get easier the more you work at it. I have also seen a seat advertised in the MS Society magazine called the segseat, www.segseat.com. I can't say enough good things about the segway. It has opened up my world. Good luck!!!

[Jon]

My sincere thanks to all of you for keeping this thread alive!

By way of follow up, Suzan acquired a red i180, to which I successfully installed a SegSeat. This seems to make an excellent combination for a person for whom fatigue (secondary to MS in Suzan's case) is an issue. Suzan's service-dog-to-be is being trained both at walking with her when using a conventional three-wheeled scooter, and alternatively, when Suzan is using her Segway. Needless to say, the Suzan-Segway-Logan (her future service dog) combination tends to attract attention! Fortunately, the attention is generally favorable.

-= Jon =-

[Suzined]

While not having MS, my symtoms are very similar--weak legs, artificial joints, and bad balance as a result of five years of physical abuse as a POW.

While Mayor I participated in the planning and coordination of the Discovery Trail which runs along the coastline of the Long Beach Peninsula in Washington State at the west end of the Lewis & Clark Trail. Four years of work building the trail and numerous cerimonies which I did not attend; my pride would not permit me to use a wheel chair.

Today, day six of Segway ownership, I glided along the Discovery Trail to the bronze tree marking the northern and westernmost point of the Corps of Discovery's trek. It was a real Lewis & Clark day: blustery drizzle, shades of gray with a churning ocean and forty degrees. The glide was in silent solitude, a truly incredible, liberating experience made possible by Segway. The machine is restorative to the spirit.

And as I glided past a group of nasty looking, unruly teens in downtown Long Beach, a young female with remarkably strange colored hair and confusing clothing shouted, "Hey, way cool!"

I promptly fell in love....

"Merry Christmas every one!"

[Nelda]

My husband and I also took a nature trail today. Gloves, layers, jacket, Elf Hat, and we were good to go. Fog was hanging heavy next to Vancouver Lake and the ducks and birds were abundant. A 6 mile trek that I can now enjoy because the joy of being able to float without the fight of trying to make muscles work that no longer will, no matter how you 'wish' it.
There is nothing better than a glide in the forest or meadow to lift my spirits to the treetops along with the eagles that I can see.
Nelda
Vancouver, Washington

[Tarsnake]

Suz.....I'm starting a list of places to see on my new wheels, and the Discovery Trail is at the top!
Do you have a link for more info?

tarsnake

[culs]

Awesome to read of your adventures in the NW. I hale from deep territorial stock, my great grandfather explored the Idaho/Canadian border in 1891 and I would so much like to glide my Segway nearby his route. North of Macdonald Lake, Bowman Creek, west of St Mary's Creek. But I digress, congrats for your trail work and Segway adventures!
\
While not having MS, my symtoms are very similar--weak legs, artificial joints, and bad balance as a result of five years of physical abuse as a POW.

While Mayor I participated in the planning and coordination of the Discovery Trail which runs along the coastline of the Long Beach Peninsula in Washington State at the west end of the Lewis & Clark Trail. Four years of work building the trail and numerous cerimonies which I did not attend; my pride would not permit me to use a wheel chair.

Today, day six of Segway ownership, I glided along the Discovery Trail to the bronze tree marking the northern and westernmost point of the Corps of Discovery's trek. It was a real Lewis & Clark day: blustery drizzle, shades of gray with a churning ocean and forty degrees. The glide was in silent solitude, a truly incredible, liberating experience made possible by Segway. The machine is restorative to the spirit.

And as I glided past a group of nasty looking, unruly teens in downtown Long Beach, a young female with remarkably strange colored hair and confusing clothing shouted, "Hey, way cool!"

I promptly fell in love....

"Merry Christmas every one!"