Fraud...or not?

[cbphl]

Folks-

I recently attempted to auction my HT i167 Segway on EBAY. The gentleman who won it, claimed that he did not feel comfortable purchasing the Segway unless we use www.escrow.com.

With that said, the poster has zero feedback, resides in Canada and attempted to ensure certain terms and conditions following the end of the auction. I realize that there is a lot of fraudulent activity on EBAY and have been told NOT to use escrow.com. Attached below is the email dialogue - whataya think?

Daniel Carr <web_account@rogers.com> wrote:

I'm sorry Chad, but I am not comfortable paying this much money for something with no protection. I tried to ask the question before bidding, but there wasn't enough time before the end of the auction for me to get your response. If you are not willing to go through escrow.com then I'm afraid I'll have to abandon this deal. Hopefully the next highest bidder will still be interested and you'll have better luck completing the transaction with them. I am truly sorry for any inconvenience I may have caused you and wish you well.

Sincerely,
Dan



Dan-

I can appreciate your concern. However, I've heard much fraudulent activity is conducted through escrow.com. I suggest that you pay through paypal via credit card, which should be more than enough protection. You can see from my feedback, that I've had no complaints. In fact, I've always paid first, including a recent car purchase on EBAY.

Please send me your address, so that I can assure that S&H to Canada is not more expensive than a $100. Once I've received payment, I will immediately ship the segway. If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Best,
Chad


"eBay Member: soccer_kix" <member@ebay.com> wrote:

eBay sent this message on behalf of an eBay member via My Messages. Responses sent using email will go to the eBay member directly and will include your email address. Click the Respond Now button below to send your response via My Messages.


Response from soccer_kix
Item: SEGWAY HT i167
This message was sent after the listing closed.
soccer_kix is the winner.

From the paypal site:

When you?re shopping on eBay, look for items that are covered by PayPal Buyer Protection. With it, you get free protection of up to $1,250.00 CAD on your purchases. Even if the buyer?s claim is justified, the buyer will receive a recovery only if there are funds in the seller?s account. RECOVERY OF YOUR CLAIM IS NOT GUARANTEED.

From the ebay site:

We encourage you to use a fully licensed and accredited escrow company such as Escrow.com to secure the safety of your transaction. Escrow.com protects both buyer and seller by acting as a trusted third-party during the transaction and managing the payment process from start to finish.

If you are a buyer or a seller and choose to pay or be paid through an escrow service, you should only use Escrow.com (www.escrow.com), eBay's approved North American escrow service.

[Socrates]

Hello,

Fraud or no fraud, that's the question.
I am sure You set Your terms of payment in Your auction. The buyer placed his bid and won the auction and he has to accept Your methods of payment. He could have asked before bidding, if You will accept "escrow".

Escrow offers the possibility for the buyer to accept or reject the merchandise. I guess the buyer simply doesn't want t buy Your HT any longer.

Alex

[Stewbonz]

Another 0 feedback jerk.
Had one spoil my perfect feedback score recently.
Give him a negative feedback and lock him out of your auctions.

[Florida Ever-Glides]

If the buyer is willing to pay ALL of the cost for the escrow service, maybe the deal can still be saved. Especially if you are a valid seller...

[unclejay]

PLease read this carefully.

Although escrow.com is a legitimate eBay service, please be aware that foreign credit card companies can and very frequently issue charge-backs on credit card purchases long after the merchandis has been delivered. So, you might go thru escrow with this guy, he gets the Segway, then a month later demands a charge back. It happens ALL THE TIME thats why many of us do not accept bids outside the USA (even Canada).

Also make sure you dont use his link to escrow.com, go thru the eBay web site to get there. (if you do decide to use it)

Your terms of sale did not include escrow, therefore you have no obligation to accept it. Here is what I would do. I would let him out of the deal, and wait 89 days to file negative feedback on him. Why ? Because he will probably not notice it (you only have 90 days to leave feedback) and will not be able to retaliate.

Also, in case he negs you, there is an 'out'. Go to eBay Safe Harbor, pay the 20 bucks and they will remove the negative score (but not the text) because he is a non-paying bidder. Your feedback icon will show grey (not red or green).

I understand his reluctance, probably 80 per cent of the Seg auctions are frauds, but he needs to learn eBay procedures at his expense, not yours.

[GyroGo]

While the buyer should have clarified terms before bidding, I understand his position. I have used escrow.com many times as a seller, and it does protect both parties. The buyer's concerns are legitimate and reasonable, even though you know you are honorable.

I'm not sure why you were told NOT to use escrow, except for the possibility that the buyer could reject the merchandise. But unless the buyer is sending you a certified check before delivery, escrow makes sure YOU get paid when the buyer keeps the merchandise.

While credit card companies can issue chargebacks, this is the first I've heard of it effecting an escrow.com transaction. I would think escrow.com would have to fight with the buyer's credit card company since they have already paid you and the buyer is violoating the terms of the escrow agreement the buyer accepted. I don't think the escrow has a basis in that case of asking the seller to return money.

[leton]

I can clearly see both sides here. However Chad, as a Segway owner and fully cognizant of the numerous fraudulent Segway sales on eBay you should probably be a little more sensitive to the buyer's concern. If you are a legitimate seller (and I am quite sure you are or you wouldn't be posting the thread), then you should really have no problem at all with complying with the buyer's request to go through escrow.com (at his expense of course, unless you are motivated to sell and will pay half).

Escrow.com is the only way to absolutely protect both parties in the transaction, and is clearly recommended by eBay. I am not aware of successful fraudulent activity processed via escrow.com, but I am aware of a proliferation of fraudulent activity outside of escrow.com. As a buyer with over 100 transactions on eBay, your reluctance to utilize escrow.com for additional buyer protection would have immediately sent a red flag. I would also have been reluctant to proceed with the transaction.

[roro]

Don't think Paypal is a safe way.

Click here for further information

http://www.paypalsucks.com/

rob

[RC Mike]

Its eBay... Of course it is a scam. I have seen my radio control truck sold 4 times on eBay, because I have had pictures of it on forums.

These pictures have been used in eBay auctions.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v464/somoney26/DCP_0757.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v464/somoney26/bumper1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v464/somoney26/DCP_0537.jpg

Problem is I have never created an eBay account. eBay is simply a scammers paradise.

Mike

[voiceguy]

I know this is off topic ... but do you have any videos of that (cool) truck?

Now, to be more ON topic -- but still maybe just a tad off thread -- has anybody created a remote-controled HT?

I don't mean a robot platform sort of thing etc... I guess I'm talkin' a normal HT with, I imagine it might be, a remote controled (lead?) weight -- maybe in a box of some sort -- which would move forward and backward to shift the center of balance (Rube Gloldberg fans unite!).

For steering I guess radio controled airplane/car servos could be rigged up to a motor to activate the steering(?)

As we have wjtnessed with the R. Platform, it CAN be done, just wonder if anyone has experimented with this.

Disclaimer:-) I would say that if anyone DOES try this at home, that ANYTHING which is the potential path of this "experiment" would be safe to have hit DEAD ON in the event the weight doesn't shift correctly etc etc.

Alan

[bystander]

Trevor Blackwell (tlb@tlb.org) mentioned that his v2 self-built balancing scooter has remote control.

http://www.tlb.org/scooter2.html (http://www.tlb.org/scooter2.html)


Remote Control

The scooter is now Bluetooth-equipped. Using a Bluetooth wireless connection, I can change parameters, download logs, and even drive it using my laptop. I got a pair of serial port extenders from Free 2 Move (http://www.free2move.se/) which look like DB-9 connectors with no wire coming out of them. Within 100 meters range, they provide a transparent serial port connection. Then I wrote a GTK application that lets you drive it around without a rider. I can now leave my scooter parked somewhere and use my laptop to have it come and get me, thus saving valuable steps. All I need now is to make it run on one of those Linux wristwatches, and I'd have the complete James Bond remote control system. (Or at least a yuppie techno-geek version of it.)



On a Segway HT, steering could also be accomplished by removing the steering grip and applying an external magnetic field via some sort of electromagnetic setup. Since the magnets in the steering grip are the high gauss Neodymium type, it may take a lot of power, so removing the spring from the grip and using a servo may be the way to go.

Another way to affect the steering is to apply a 0-5 volt signal to the circuit inside the handlebar assembly. That would probably be the lowest power cost option, but you'd need to crack a handlebar open.

For forward/backward motion, a servo controlled weight-shifter may work, however, it may not be as intuitive as one might think to control speed. I think one may need something measuring the revs of the motors and/or wheels and "supervising" the weight-shift control to keep things from getting stuck in speed-limiter mode.

Another way of accomplishing weight shift might be opening the powerbase and connecting a servo on the Balance Sensor Assembly (BSA) to make it tilt with respect to the chassis. The BSA has a little "wiggle room" if it's mounting screws are removed.

Disclaimer: this is all speculative and would reduce the safety of the HT considerably.

[RC Mike]

By the way, I am not saying that your auction is a scam. I just believe that anyone who uses eBay for anything more than $50 is insane. If you think scams are common with Segways, you should see how crazy they are in RC. I have literally seen MY car for sale 4 times. It is scary. I had someone come on one of my RC forums and demand that I ship my $3000 truck for the $1700 he paid some scammer. Poor kid had been saving for 2 years posting on the forum, saw my truck on scamBay, and thought he had the bargain of the century since he knew exactly what i had in that truck. Police got involved, it SUCKED. eBay and Paypal pointed the finger at me, never gave him his money, said it was his fault, no protection, no service, just thanks for your 12%. And I don't even have an eBay or Paypal account. If I did, according to their terms of service, they would have raided my bank account for the $1700, and I would have had to prove I didn't do it. Probably would have lost the money, since it would be cheaper than paying a lawyer for 2 years.

the sad thing is, that for 12%, they should do the escrow for free, but instead they create escrow.com and try to squeeze another 3% out of you. Instead of doing the escrow, what do they do? well, they try this (http://spaceflightnow.com/falcon/050120spacex/) but do this instead (http://spaceflightnow.com/falcon/f1/060324failure.html) . This quote says it all: "Financially speaking, I'm a volunteer in this situation. I made enough money with PayPal and Zip2 that I don't really need to work."

As far as videos, I do have some, but not online.

Mike

[KSagal]

I don't know seller or buyer, but I do know a deal is a deal...

The auction was set with conditions, as all sales are... The buyer had to say he accepted the conditions in order to bid.

After he wins the auction, he want to change the conditions. This is the same as saying that he was willing to accept the conditions even when he was not. In my book that is a lie.

If one party lies while negotiating a deal, I feel that the rest of what he said is also likely a lie.

You cannot trust this buyer, and should throw the book at him...

There is absolutly no reason for the seller to jump thru extra hoops and try to accomodate a person who will change the rules after the game is over. You will never satisfy this buyer and will likely loose your seg and the money...

[GyroGo]

You will never satisfy this buyer and will likely loose your seg and the money...
I think that's a stretch based on what we've been told.

I don't want to keep drilling this into the ground, but I think the important thing to take away from this thread is that regardless of what this buyer and seller agree to work out in this case and whether or not eBay is involved in this type of transaction, that unless someone has substantive information of real problems that have occurred with escrow in FACT, a reputable escrow is the safest way to buy or sell a Segway over the internet (or anything else).

It is important as there have been many prior threads about the legitimacy and safety of used Segway sales over the internet, typically eBay, and the use of escrow is a good way to allay concerns in pretty much all of these types of situations. There needs to be a way to buy and sell used Segs online without fear.

Now in this particular case, it is proper to work out a common understanding of transaction details before bidding, and the buyer is at fault for not doing so (and technically bears the blame here), but his "second thought" reluctance need not indicate anything but prudent caution on his part.

[Desert_Seg]

Whatever happened to "Caveat Emptor"? (Buyer Beware for those of you who are unsure).

Have we become so pamepered in our lives that when we make a mistake we want somebody else to pay for it? Give me a break!

If you buy something on eBay or any other online site, you are taking a risk. If you buy something at a pawn shop you are also taking a risk. If the risk turns out to be bad SUCK IT UP!

I've made some bad investments and decisions in my life. Have yet to seek legal redress because of my own stupidity. Neither should anyone else. End of story....

Steven

[RC Mike]

GyroGo, I understand what you are saying. My entire point is that if you cannot trust eBay or Paypal with a transaction, how can you trust escrow.com (owned by eBay as is Paypal) to moniter your transaction. If 12% (reserve listing fees plus commision plus paypal fees to accept credit cards) won't buy security, why would an additional 3%? The real problem is that they (eBay/Paypal/escrow.com) do not care about the scams they support, as long as they get their money.

So like Steven says, buyer beware, no, buyer be terrified if you use eBay/Paypal. As I have no experience with escrow.com (don't use eBay) I cannot speak to them (although in my opinion, guilty by association: same owner, same attitude). Come on, they make enough money off people to fund a private space agency. Windfall profits anyone?

I, for one, will never deal with scamBay.

Mike

[GyroGo]

It's not only caveat emptor, but also caveat vendor. A transaction is a two way street, and whatever problems of doing business online, there is risk for both parties. I am a natural skeptic myself, and usually pretty cautious, but your cynicism does not allow many options for efficient economic exchange. What is your superior alternative?

There is obviously value in having such choices as eBay to sell and buy stuff. If there ever comes a time when YOU try to sell something of value that you can not find a ready local buyer for, you will find a newfound appreciation for eBay like systems. The system may be imperfect, but if you choose to use it, escrow gives you an independent layer of protection by a third party that goes beyond the buyer and seller trusting only each other and beyond eBay and Paypals’s obligations. Regardless of who owns escrow.com, the protection afforded is through a PROCESS of safeguards that both parties become CONTRACTUALLY BOUND to. There is a series of steps that ensures the buyer gets the advertised merchandise before funds are released to the seller, and the seller makes sure the escrow company is holding his money before shipping. The escrow company enforces the transaction and protects both parties.

Unless you can come up with some real world examples that I have already asked for showing how the escrow process is deficient, I contend it remains the best option for a fair transaction for BOTH buyer and seller.

[RC Mike]

Regardless of who owns escrow.com, the protection afforded is through a PROCESS of safeguards that both parties become CONTRACTUALLY BOUND to.

One problem, when you elect to bid on eBay, you are contractually bound to pay, and the buyer is contractually bound to ship the item. When you pay with Paypal, you are contractually bound to pay, and the seller is contractually bound to send the item, or the buyer is contractually bound to get their money back. As this is the case, what is the need for escrow.com, except the the "contractually bound" part doesn't really matter? Because they don't really care? Then why would the people who own eBay and Paypal be any better at escrow than sales and payment?

Mike

[GyroGo]

One problem, when you elect to bid on eBay, you are contractually bound to pay, and the buyer is contractually bound to ship the item. When you pay with Paypal, you are contractually bound to pay, and the seller is contractually bound to send the item, or the buyer is contractually bound to get their money back. As this is the case, what is the need for escrow.com, except the the "contractually bound" part doesn't really matter? Because they don't really care? Then why would the people who own eBay and Paypal be any better at escrow than sales and payment?

Mike
Mike, it appears you don't really understand the escrow process.
1) buyer and seller agree to terms of transaction and escrow rules.
2) buyer transfers funds to escrow.
3) seller ships merchandise to buyer.
4) buyer accepts or rejects merchandise within agreed time frame (or acceptance is the default).
5) escrow transfers funds to seller.

get it now?



A seller that is willing to ship an expensive item without getting paid first or escrow protection to a complete stranger is taking undue risk, as is a buyer willing to send money before getting the goods. A system that offers fair protection to both parties will maximize participation on both the supply and demand side, and be to the benefit of all interested in buying or selling.

[Desert_Seg]

The devil is in the details, as is often said.

Contract law is simple - Offer made + Offer Accepted = contract (this in its simplest form)

So, what makes eBay / PayPal / whomever else such a problem? The contract entered between the seller and the service provider is totally different than the contract between the seller and the buyer.

Thereroe, while in any transaction there is an implied warranty, who enforces it? It is eBay because they took your money IOT allow the deal? Is it PayPal who "guaranteed" the deal? Yes, and no...(how's that for legal obfuscation).

You see, once you add in the varying laws that govern internet transactions, the varying laws that govern auctions AND any other jurisdictions that might be involved (outside of the US) you have a HUGE quagmire. Yes, the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) does address some of these problems but not the majority.

And, since there are a minimum of TWO transactions with every eBay auction and multiple applicable laws, whose rights abrogate whose? You can imagine that as the fingers begin to point, and the tongues begin to wag, that the individual with the deepest pockets hired the best lawyers to make sure they had limited (if any) liability.

So, I reiterate. Caveat Emport but also must add (as Gary tried to say) Caveat Venditor.

Steven

That Latin DID come in handy!

[RC Mike]

Mike, it appears you don't really understand the escrow process.
I understand the escrow process very well. I currently have four parcels of real estate in escrow.

My point is that if you pay eBay to host a fair auction, then pay Paypal to ensure fair payment, then why would you need to pay escrow.com to ensure the auction was fair and the payment was made? (and I am not talking about $3m land titles, I am talking do you even have physical custody of the item?) The only answer is that if they don't care to ensure that the seller can actually sell the item, and they cannot ensure that the buyer actually paid, then why assume that paying them will result in receiving the item, and why assume that shipping the item will result in getting paid, especially when you pay 12% for the former, and pay 3% for the latter? Shouldn't eBay and Paypal guarantee these things? They say they do, but no action on their part. They point at small print where they say "spend more money and you will be safe." It is an absolute joke.

My second point is that if you go to McDonalds for a burger, and get a hot dog, then go to return it and they tell you your account is frozen, then why would asking them to hold it until it was cold be any better?

Mike

Also, having been burned by eBay without even being an eBay member, I will admit to being biased, but is it still not reasonable to expect an auction house to make sure the item is available for sale and the buyer can afford the item? Barrett-Jackson auto auctions can accomplish this for 8% with the requirement for physical plants on both coasts, why won't eBay do this for 12%?

Mike

[GyroGo]

Mike,

I'm not here to represent or defend eBay, but you are mixing apples and oranges, hamburgers and hotdogs.

While it would be nice if eBay could police each auction to ensure honesty and fairness by all parties, it is apparent to me why this great theory would not be feasible in practice, as much as they state they try. I'm not going to spend time trying to explain why in detail, perhaps someone else has the time and patience.

Having a third party HOLD THE MONEY and not release it to the seller until the BUYER ACCEPTS RECEIPT OF THE MERCHANDISE is the only way I know of that the third party can guarantee delivery of merchandise and payment short of them taking ownership of the merchandise and selling it to you themselves. But then that would be a different deal altogether. Escrow is a seperate service from the auction or paypal. They are different animals. Don't use eBay if you don't want to, but don't sit here and shoot it apart without a realistic alternative. eBay fills a basic need, escrow fills a related but distinctly seperate need.

Would you have eBay just make escrow a mandatory part of every transaction and build the additional costs in? I can't speak to their cost structure to say whether they could do it at their current fees or should be able to. But I'll bet mandatory escrow on every transaction would raise rates unneccesarily for those who do not need or choose not to use escrow.

[RC Mike]

What third party? Escrow is owned by eBay, as is Paypal.

Mike

[GyroGo]

What third party? Escrow is owned by eBay, as is Paypal.

Mike
It's a complex web of corporate ownership we live in. Escrow is a third party to the buyer and seller that holds the money until delivery performed.

Forget about eBay and Paypal and escrow.com for a second. We could be talking about ANY online auction system, payment system, and escrow system, the concept is the same. Escrow is a level of protection. If you don't like eBay, Paypal, and escrow.com, don't use them, but how can you deny the benefits of the principle of escrow in the scenario? Your anger over your bad personal experience is clouding your judgement.

[RC Mike]

We could be, but we are not. CBPHL discussed eBay, Paypal, and Escrow. Yes, i am biased. But I see this every day in my RC forums. Much more often than Gaye finds a fraud auction. eBay does not care. We report, they don't care, and kids get scammed. eBay does own escrow. So why should I assume eBay cares on Escrow.com? I would guess that you know that if I assume, i make an A## of U and ME. Is there a valid sales vehicle? Sure... I buy and sell all the time off my RC websites, but only to people whom I personally know or people whom i personally know will vouch for...this probably includes about 3K people. Could I get more on eBay? Probably. But I know i will get my money, and I know they will get my product. Or vice versa. Either way, a deal is a deal, and no 12% to the jokers to pursue a private space program, and everybody is happy. Yes, i hate eBay, and yes, it IS a scammers paradise.

Mike

[RC Mike]

currently on scamBay, out of the first 50 under trademarked name supermaxx...

6050402164
6050402231
6050402318
6050405291
6050411860
6050550536
6051152077
6051153775
6051156991
6051157915
6051158696
6051158696
6051171814
6051140162
6051142775
6051867892
6051599545
6051774015
6051092328
6051095835
6051097498
6051099314


All scams that have nothing to do with the product "supermaxx", trying to sell using Unlimited Enginering's well deserved reputation for quality and value. This might not make any sense to you, but the difference between 7075-t6 aluminum and "aircraft aluminum" makes a HUGE difference when your 12# RC truck hits something at 35 mph.

and before you say, these are low dollar items, for currently $800, look at this one.

http://i11.ebayimg.com/04/i/06/c7/e5/21_1.JPG

front is to the right. compare it to this one, a real supermaxx

http://www.unlimitedengineering.com/gallery/files/2/8/0/6/sm_533164.jpg

Notice that the back half of the chassis bends in toward the rear on the fake, not on the real thing? How hard is this to spot? Not very. But they do not care. And the kids don't spot it.


Mike

also, remember that this is just the first 50 under supermaxx... Unlimited Engineering will net many more, many people dont put it in the title.. It is an absolute joke.

Mike

[RC Mike]

Spending a few more seconds looking at this, they have photochopped an RB concepts TM928 cooling head on to a motor using a .15 or less pipe. So somehow, a .28 cubic inch motor is supposed to breath thru a pipe made for .15 cubic inch motor? It would not even start, assuming they actually have that $340 engine. What a scam. but worthless to report it as it will go to sale and someone will get scammed. Look at how bad the photoshop is.. they added "team edition" to the head...FYI, RB concept has no such thing as a team edition.

http://www.rbproducts.com/images/RB%20CONCEPT/01900-000122.jpg

mike

Mike

[GyroGo]

Mike,

So you have more comfort dealing only with the 3000 people you know who advertise on websites specific to your interest. Great for you. If I wanted one of those things that I found on one of those RC websites, I would still feel alot safer using an escrow service if I'm dealing with a stranger and a substantial amount of money. In fact, all my sales that I have used escrow.com for were NOT through eBay. However, eBay exists because it has convenience, product selection, and features that other sites don't have. If I go to a flea market and find some shady deals, that doesn't mean I should hold the market management responsible for all vendors and customers activity. Sure, flea markets and online auction websites should have rules to follow, but it really is caveat emptor and caveat venditor.

The point you continue to miss that I am trying to stress is that for anyone buying or selling a used Segway dealing with a stranger, however you find each other, ESCROW HELPS PREVENT THE FRAUD THAT MANY FEAR. Regardless of who owns escrow.com, you have failed, Mike, to offer any actual examples of the failure of the process to protect the parties.

I have read and ignored SO MANY threads here on SC regarding suspicious and fraudulent eBay Seg deals and this is the first one I have responded to (I think) as I have always just shrugged and wondered why parties just don't use escrow to prevent fraud problems.

USE ESCROW.