Effect of payload on Segway range/mileage

[leton]

The product description on my i180 indates that it has a range of up to 24 miles on a single charge (depending on terrain, riding style and payload). At 235 lbs., I could not get 24 miles out of my i180 if I were riding with the black key on a level surface no matter how smooth it was. While I'm sure there are other variables that impact range such as wind resistance and tire pressure, clearly the payload impacts the range fairly significantly.

Is anyone aware of any controlled testing that has been done using constant terrain and riding style and a variety of different payload variables? For example, it would be interesting to see a chart that displays the theoretical 24 mile range (presuming minimum payload) and how that range is altered at different payloads up to the maximum 260 lbs. identified in the product description. No, I don't have the time to conduct such testing myself, but if anyone is aware of anything like this, please share.

Thanks,


Aloha from Hawaii
Rick Leton

[KSagal]

I cannot say that I have seen the exact study that you referred to, but in Florida, 18 months ago, a graph was displayed and a seminar was hosted by segway engineers, speaking about range...

At the time, NiMH was all there was, and the variable that was used was only speed, and not payload or wind, but a significant increase in range was demonstraited with a reduction in speed...

That chart was here on this forum, so I imagine a search would easily bring it up. As I recall (And my memory is not as good as it once was, and it was never that good) had an almost 20 mile range available from NiMH batteries, providing a steady 2mph was maintained...

I have only recently (Christmas) upgraded to LiIons, and my payload is far in excess of your stated payload, with me at 210 pounds, and my e with e bags and lots of crapola, I would imagine I always have at least 25 lbs of permanant excess payload...

I have done in excess of 16 miles with power to spare. At that time I did not keep my speed down, but in the past, I could significantly increase my range by keeping it in the single digits... A 9 mph glide was very much longer than a 12pmh one...

Good luck on your search for a study. I would like to see the results...

Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[macgeek]

Rick, I have lost a dramatic amount of weight, and I can tell you when I was 300 lbs, and when I was 200 lbs, there was NOT that much of a range differance

I hope that helps

Jonathan

[bystander]

Here's the chart that KSagal remembers:

[img.nr]http://www.segwaychat.com/photos/bystander/chart.jpg[/img.nr]

(Just ignore that red square I added for another discussion)

It may be hard to make out, but the captions under each colored line refer to the amount of slope.

The orange circles are various situations on a flat (no slope) track.

This was from back in the days of NiMH only. But it does show that greater range can be had at low speeds and smooth acceleration.

Edited to add this:

Keep in mind this chart is for I-167 and not the XT with it's softer wheels.

It's my understanding that the interpretation is as follows:

The upper dark blue curved line is for range under perfect "no slope" test track conditions, traveling at constant speed with very little or no stops and starts. The horizontal axis is average speed in mph, the vertical axis, range in miles.

A further assumption on the dark blue line is that the rider does not push up against the speed limiter, as that behavior is believed to drain the batteries at a higher rate.

The chart indicates, when traveling at a smooth 7.5 mph, range drops by half when the tires are underinflated. (I don't know what pressure is considered "underinflated" here).

When traveling an "Average" of 7.5 mph, one looses 3 to 3.5 miles of range by not accelerating smoothly, or possibly the interpretation is that _any_ starting and stopping reduces range from the theoretical 15 mile range the chart shows for this speed (7.5 mph)

The two data points for the Michelin weight load tests show a loss of about 2 miles of range per 50 lbs in perfect conditions. So in "Real Life" situations, where the range will be less, then the range lost will be less. In this area, the chart supports macgeek's observation.

Ah, the good old days of NiMH, when you found yourself halfway along your journey and realized you'd have to finish at a crawl, unless you felt like pushing...

[toybuilder]

Your payload, gliding style and speed all will contribute to your usable range. I remember PT on BookOfSeg reporting that he was able to get much better range after he had gotten smoother on his glides. I had the same experience. Also, gliding at 4 mph will get you much further than pushing the limits of the red key...

My wife is 130 lbs (versus me at 210), and she rides more slowly -- she can make it down hill to the local college and climb back home on one bar. I end up eating almost 2.5 doing the same.

[leton]

Bystander, your posting above is very interesting. First I couldn't access the jpg link you posted, but nonetheless I have made some very noticeable differences by just experimenting with tire pressure on an XT. At 5psi, there are one or two semi-steep hills that couldn't be climbed by me even when I had max charge. After increasing tire pressure to 15psi, the XT charges those hills with no problem at all. Also, I can't verify that it was actually faster, but it sure felt faster than normal. It's a little bumpier than normal (to be expected), but the higher speeds on rougher road terrain in my neighborhood more than makes up for that. Also an extra cushion mat helps. The downside of the increased tire pressure is that it struggles a bit more on the sand (I live near the beach in Hawaii so that's an issue with me). If anyone can point out some other downsides of riding with overpressured XT tires, I'd be interested in being made aware of other potential problems I should be aware of.

Clearly, gliding at a constant speed that is not pushing the speed limiter provides for optimum range also. The speed vs. range issue is always a constant trade off, and I guess depends on what your expectations are on any given day and gliding experience.

Fortunately, I'm still somewhat of a newbie, and I've never had to "suffer" through the limited range of the NiMH days.

[bystander]

Here's that chart from my previous post:

http://forums.segwaychat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17&stc=1&d=1145407507

It's missing due to the uncompleted changeover to the new photo album system.

As you have indicated, the low pressure tires' increased rolling resistance makes some slope situations "unconquerable".

I haven't had much experience traverssing sand, but I understand there are "paddle" type ATV tires out there which are supposed to be better on sand.

http://www.4atvtires.com/uploads/productImages/geckothumb.jpghttp://www.4atvtires.com/uploads/productImages/sandskatethumb.jpghttp://www.4atvtires.com/uploads/productImages/SAND_SHARK.jpg

But by the looks of them, they might be very bumpy on a paved surface, so maybe not practical for the HT.

[leton]

Yes, my XT tire use is only occasionally in sand. I also have to traverse sidewalks and bikepaths to get there. So my offroad tire needs to be able to handle more variations in road surfaces, hence the "sand tires" are not practical for me.

What I need is an ATV tire that:

1. is better than the XT tire at higher pressures in sand.
2. also handles reasonably well on regular sidewalk/road surfaces (need some level of comfort).
3. is affordable.
4. is at least as wide as the XT tire and will still fit under the XT fenders.
5. or bigger than the XT tires and I remove the XT fenders.

Maybe I'm asking for too much!

Anyone have any suggestions?

[bystander]

I'd like to find out if the tweels on this Centaur work well on sand:

http://netcar.sas.e-pasaz.pl/simg/NETCAR/img/36740/10318.jpg

They're (tweels nor Centaurs) not out yet, no ETA either.

---

Maybe the answer for now is to ride on high pressure to the beach, let some air out for the beach, then find a place with an air compressor before heading home (or carry an air pump). Probably too much trouble.

[polo_pro]

Just to let you know I'm about to do a series of experiments in the coming weeks to determine how towed payload affects range and climbing ability. The towed payload can be up to 150 pounds and is spread out across the back of the platform's 4 screws. I'm mainly using NiMH on a i170 for these test, but I'll be swapping in Li-Ions since that's what I'll be using primarily on my long distance glide next month from SF to LA.

The tests are as follows:
1) empty trailer for 18 miles using two pairs of NiMH.
2) 100 pounds of ballast for 10 miles using a pair of NiMH.
3) Hill climing for 10 miles using two pairs of NiMH.
4) 150 pounds of ballast for 60 miles over 2 days using two pairs of NiMH and a pair of Li-Ion

In most of the above cases, I've already made the trip with the Segway alone. So in normal situations, the Segway's range would suffice. I'm trying to determine just how much the additional payload of the trailer affects the range.

[unclejay]

I have a ATV with paddle tires, they are just awful on hard surfaces...bump bump bump - and the paddles wear out very fast. But they are GREAT on sand ! (Not dirt or even hard pack sand)

[leton]

Plomoh,

I'd be interested in the results of your trials. Please post them when you're done.

[Sequoia]

I have done a lot of testing with weight and wind and do not find them to be the contribuiting factor, it is the speed limiter (just as Segway says).

We can operate our kiosks for over 8 hours on carpet and still have a full half charge left (LiIon).

I agree with the posts that it is all about the speed and this has been proven in the field.

www.askadvatar.com

[polo_pro]

Plomoh,

I'd be interested in the results of your trials. Please post them when you're done.

Looking at the following Hawaiian coastline measurements:

Kauai 90 miles
Maui 120 miles
Oahu 112 miles

I came up with an odd thought for another long distance glide. Could you glide around Hawaii in a day? Assuming you could locate 5 to 6 pairs of Li-Ion, got a trailer and waited till the longest day of the year (13.5 hours), I think it might be possible! I'm not sure how hilly the roads along the Hawaiian coast are, and as far as I remember there isn't much of a bike lane.

I think the best place to do this would be on a long straight stretch of road in the Plain states. I'm betting I could set a record for self-sufficient, daylight gliding of 150 miles across Color....oops, I mean, Iowa! Start at daybreak on June 21st, go west to east with the wind, use a segseat periodically throughout the day to avoid having to stop to rest, rest briefly while changing batteries (carried in the trailer) and 15 hours later when the sun goes down call the Guiness Book of World Records.

[JohnM]

I think the best place to do this would be on a long straight stretch of road in the Plain states. I'm betting I could set a record for self-sufficient, daylight gliding of 150 miles across Color....oops, I mean, Iowa! Start at daybreak on June 21st, go west to east with the wind, use a segseat periodically throughout the day to avoid having to stop to rest, rest briefly while changing batteries (carried in the trailer) and 15 hours later when the sun goes down call the Guiness Book of World Records.

Ah, the great myth of Iowa being flat. When I rode RAGBRAI (a week long rolling party of 10,000 cyclists that crosses Iowa each July) we had a total climb of over 14,000 feet. Few big hills, just constant rolling terrain.

Want 180+ miles of really flat and traffic free terrain? Try the C&O canal towpath in Maryland. http://www.nps.gov/choh

[polo_pro]

Just to let you know I'm about to do a series of experiments in the coming weeks to determine how towed payload affects range and climbing ability. The towed payload can be up to 150 pounds and is spread out across the back of the platform's 4 screws. I'm mainly using NiMH on a i170 for these test, but I'll be swapping in Li-Ions since that's what I'll be using primarily on my long distance glide next month from SF to LA.

The tests are as follows:
1) empty trailer for 18 miles using two pairs of NiMH.
2) 100 pounds of ballast for 10 miles using a pair of NiMH.
3) Hill climing for 10 miles using two pairs of NiMH.
4) 150 pounds of ballast for 60 miles over 2 days using two pairs of NiMH and a pair of Li-Ion

In most of the above cases, I've already made the trip with the Segway alone. So in normal situations, the Segway's range would suffice. I'm trying to determine just how much the additional payload of the trailer affects the range.

Overall the testing has gone well. I've learned alot about how to get the most out of my Segway and its batteries. In a few cases, I've been disappointed, but for the most part I've been happy with the results. And speaking of the results they are as follows:

1) 21 miles under optimal conditions with only mild hills along well known routes and a trailer holding only a pair of batteries.

2) 9 miles with a gentle uphill slope the whole way (600 foot change in elevation) with 35 pounds of ballast in a backpack. The pair of batteries were rather old (having an AF part number).

3) Using Li-Ion instead on the steepest hill riding aggressively, I only got 6 miles but I also was towing a 100 pound trailer. This was a 2500 foot climb and did equal exactly what I've done before with 2 pairs of NiMH on a very similar hill climb in the past.

4) I'm still working out how to do this next weekend, but I did something like it this weekend when I did the most of the same route with over 3 days this weekend! Total distance was 42 miles and only 60 pounds of ballast.

I'll be posting more details as I get ready for this long distance glide. I've been also trying out all the new technologies to record this trip (blog/tracking/camera), safe (cell phone/GPS) and make it enjoyable for me (XM radio). More details and links to come shortly (along with an itinerary for those of you who might be along the California coast at the end of this month)!

[Isidore]

For what it's worth, I commute at a total payload of about 155 lbs and over the last two days use I did a distance of 21 miles on one charge. Average speed excluding stops was about 10 mph so that's pretty well full speed most of the time. Terrain (central London) is fairly flat, with overall height variation across any journey of 3-4 miles of less than 100 ft. After 21 miles I was down to no bars and was just going into reduced performance mode so there wasn't much juice left. As the two days use were Friday and Monday, there is a small element of self discharge over the weekend so I'm very pleased with how the batteries are doing. All figures from gps.