Support Colorado EPAMD efforts

[Magiksneakers]

Dear SegwayChat members, please see the below note from Matt Dailida at Segway Inc.

Regards,
Eric Fleming
Segway Inc.



On Thursday, February 9, the Senate Transportation Committee will hear public testimony on Senate Bill 168, AN ACT To Regulate Electric Personal Assistive Mobility Devices in the State of Colorado. Senate Bill 168 will create a regulatory framework for the use of Segway HTs on the public ways of Colorado including sidewalks, bike paths and certain roadways. The proposed legislation closely mirrors laws that exist in 42 U.S. states and the District of Columbia as well as several European nations.

A copy of Senate Bill 168 can be found via the following link:

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics2006a/csl.nsf/fsbillcont3/525E1594767EAFB5872570EB006FD132?Open&file=168_01.pdf

Colorado Segway HT owners can help by either attending the public hearing or submitting written testimony in support of Senate Bill 168. A similar bill died in Committee last year so it's important that we, the Segway community, demonstrate how important this bill is to us.

Segway Inc is strongly supporting Senate Bill 168, sponsored by Senator Deanna Hanna and Representative Ray Rose. If you plan on submitting testimony, it should be sent to the Chairwoman of the Committee, Senator Stephanie Takis. Her contact information can be found via the following link:

http://www.leg.state.co.us/Clics2006A/csl.nsf/DirectorySen?openframeset

Unfortunately, because of the legislative schedule, a specific time has yet to be set. We have been told that our hearing could begin anytime between 9:30-12:00. The hearing will take place at the Colorado State House located in Denver.

If you have additional questions and comments or would like to become more involved, please contact me at Matt.Dailida@Segway.com.

Thank you.

Matt Dailida
Director of Government Affairs
Segway Inc.

[wwhopper]

Eric, about time we saw your face on here!

SA is working on getting it out to those on the membership list in the state!

Will W Hopper
DCSEG Member
SEG America
The Premier Gliding Organization!
http://www.SEGAmerica.org
Washington DC - The Most Segway Friendly City in America!

[jake4700]

Does it look good that the Bill will pass?

=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=
Jennifer

[JohnM]

42-4-109.3
"AN EPAMD MAY BE USED ON SIDEWALKS UNLESS PROHIBITED BY AN OFFICIAL
TRAFFIC CONTROL DEVICE, BIKE PATHS, AND HIGHWAYS WHERE THE SPEED
LIMIT IS THIRTY-FIVE MILES PER HOUR OR LESS;"

Why the restriction to highways where the speed limit is 35 mph or less?

JohnM
Anything worth doing for 2 hours is 10 times more worthwhile if done for 20 hours.
RUSA #235

[KSagal]

I am only using your quote, John, but it is obvious to anyone who has ever been on a seg.

Segs are not designed for the road, so if they must be in the road, it should only be on small roads instead of high speed larger roads...

Do you also complain about those signs that prohibit bikes and pedestrians from interstate highways? Do you think it is safe for a bike to be on a limited access, high speed road, like Interstate 93?

Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[BruceWright]

35 seems excessively slow.

Ksagal, it is not obvious to me, I've ridden mine thousands of miles. Bikes are not prohibited from every road in the state faster than 35mph. Why should segways be second class citizens to bikes? You actually want Segways to be legally inferior to bikes?

I wouldn't be able to ride my segway to work based on that law. It's not a 65 or 70mph freeway. It's a 40mph street.

If there ARE no small roads, you just outlawed the Segway.

Not all streets are built the same. Imagine you live in an unincorporated part of (fictional) Tumbleweed County Colorado. Population 7. 10 miles off the interstate. Only one stop and go light, and you use your Segway to go back and forth between The Old Shoe(the local watering hole) and your home, where you work as a telemarketer.

There ain't no sidewalks in this part of Tumbleweed County. Folks use the blacktop. The speed limit, should anyone care to drive through, is 45mph. Why should riding your segway there be illegal?

Your comment about interstate 93 and laws that ban bikes and pedestrians from interstates is a straw man, unless interstate 93 is 35mph.




-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[JohnM]

Funny how Karl was in Bedford on 11/18/04 cheering on Josh Caldwell for crossing the continent, a trip mostly on roads with speed limits over 35 mph. Now he supports laws that would make such an epic trek illegal.

JohnM
Anything worth doing for 2 hours is 10 times more worthwhile if done for 20 hours.
RUSA #235

[KSagal]

I live in the suburbs of Boston. Clearly the oldest part of the country, relative to infrastructure. Bruce's example as well as John's have made me reconsider. I was not considering a comparison to Bikes, which so clearly are not in the same league as the seg... I was thinking more of the federal guidelines for Neighborhood Electric Vehicles. I was thinking of forward projecting transportation considerations, not those left over from the 18th century...

I grew up in Connecticut. An unposted road there as well as here in Massachusetts give an unmarked road a statewide speed limit of 30mph unless otherwize posted...

My concept of a 'fast' road as opposed to a 'slow' road are not necessarily representative of the entire country.

The example I used, which is very appropriate to where John (who has yet to answer my question) and I live, may very well not be for the rest of the country.

Upon reconsideration, I withdraw my support of the 35 mph restriction. It was not as well thought out by me as should have been. Apologies where appropriate.

Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[pdantic]

I'm hoping I can get to the Colorado Capitol tomorrow for the hearing - I just received an email from another group that I'm a member of (Bicycle Colorado) and found out that they're asking their large and vocal membership to oppose SB 168. Here's what they sent out and what they've posted on their website:


<center>Against Senate Bill 168

Motorized Vehicles Posing as Pedestrians and Bicyclists</center>

Sidewalks and bike paths are designated as safety areas separating people from motorized vehicles. SB 168 goes against this principal and creates danger for children, pedestrians, and bicyclists.

Bill Summary

This bill changes the definition of a “Pedestrian” to include a 100 pound motorized vehicle such as a Segway. Confusingly, it also changes bicycling statutes to equate these motorized vehicles to bicycles. Finally, this bill legislates a competitive advantage for one product without including provisions for competing products with three and four wheels.


Colorado Traffic Laws Protect the Most Vulnerable

Traffic laws grant right of way and protection for road and sidewalk users who move under their own power. SB 168 creates a dangerous environment for the most at-risk road users.


SB 168 Creates Danger on Sidewalks and Bike Paths

*Pedestrians on sidewalks generally move at about 3 miles per hour while motorized vehicles such as Segways move at speeds closer to 12 miles per hour, creating an unreasonable risk of collisions on sidewalks
*Bike paths are already heavily used by walkers, joggers, baby strollers, bicyclists, inline skaters, and dog walkers – adding motorized vehicles to paths put current users at risk
*Allowing motorized vehicle on bike paths and sidewalks creates a slippery slope that opens the door to motorized vehicles into previously motor-free areas, forcing human-powered users off bike paths and sidewalks

Bicycles and Pedestrians Don't Have Motors

If you add a motor to a bicycle, it becomes a motorized bicycle and must follow laws for motorized bicycles. A motorized vehicle like a Segway cannot be a bicycle or pedestrian; it is more similar to a motorized bicycle.

As many of you well know, I have put off the purchase of a Segway until they're "sidewalk/bike path legal" in Colorado. If you're a Colorado resident and you read this, call your state legislators TODAY in support of SB 168.



Steve
The Joy of Segs: http://www.joyofsegs.com

[JohnM]

quote:Bicycle Colorado sez,

Bicycles and Pedestrians Don't Have Motors

If you add a motor to a bicycle, it becomes a motorized bicycle and must follow laws for motorized bicycles. A motorized vehicle like a Segway cannot be a bicycle or pedestrian; it is more similar to a motorized bicycle.
This group is bending the truth for their own purposes. Some non-motorized bicycles in Colorado do have motors. At the state level, Colorado considers a bicycle with a gasoline engine under 50cc to be a 'motorized bicycle'. But several cities (Boulder & Colorado Springs that I'm sure of) have accepted the CPSC definition of an 'electric assisted bicycle' (pedal power with an auxiliary electric motor, 20mph top speed) which is treated legally the same as any other bicycle. This makes the above statement untrue in certain locales. Unless Bicycle Colorado is taking an equally negative stand on sweat-free electric bikes, their crediblity is questionable.

I see only one valid reason for any bike organization to be against an EPAMD law, and it goes back the 35mph clause in the Colorado law. If a state or city says that an EPAMD moving at 12.5 mph must be used only on sidewalks, paths or streets with speed limits no more that 35mph, then it opens the door for the state or city to restrict all devices, including bicycles, moving at 12.5 mph to the sidewalks, paths or slower streets. Unacceptable. Bike organizations should put their prejudices aside and work for EPAMD laws that give Segways ALL the rights and responsibilities that cyclists enjoy. Then we can work together to make the streets safer for everyone. All forms of slower moving, environmentally sound transportation will benefit.

JohnM
Anything worth doing for 2 hours is 10 times more worthwhile if done for 20 hours.
RUSA #235

[Murray Fisher]

I was ejected from a Simon operated Mall for operating mh Segway at the Columbia Center Mall in Richland, WA. I told them and wrote a letter to the Corporate Headquarters, that I also owend a Sports Car (DeLorean) that supposedly was capable of going 170 MPH, but I never ran it over rhe speed limits.....An analogy with the Segway HT. It is CAPABLE of going 12.5 MPH but when I am cruising a Mall with my wife who is walking at 3MPH I am staying right alongside her. Everyone I had visited with in the Mall, including many vendors thought is was pretty funny that an 84 year old man roaring thru the mall at 3MPH would be ejected! But thems the corporate rules!!

quote:Originally posted by JohnM

quote:Bicycle Colorado sez,

Bicycles and Pedestrians Don't Have Motors

If you add a motor to a bicycle, it becomes a motorized bicycle and must follow laws for motorized bicycles. A motorized vehicle like a Segway cannot be a bicycle or pedestrian; it is more similar to a motorized bicycle.
This group is bending the truth for their own purposes. Some non-motorized bicycles in Colorado do have motors. At the state level, Colorado considers a bicycle with a gasoline engine under 50cc to be a 'motorized bicycle'. But several cities (Boulder & Colorado Springs that I'm sure of) have accepted the CPSC definition of an 'electric assisted bicycle' (pedal power with an auxiliary electric motor, 20mph top speed) which is treated legally the same as any other bicycle. This makes the above statement untrue in certain locales. Unless Bicycle Colorado is taking an equally negative stand on sweat-free electric bikes, their crediblity is questionable.

I see only one valid reason for any bike organization to be against an EPAMD law, and it goes back the 35mph clause in the Colorado law. If a state or city says that an EPAMD moving at 12.5 mph must be used only on sidewalks, paths or streets with speed limits no more that 35mph, then it opens the door for the state or city to restrict all devices, including bicycles, moving at 12.5 mph to the sidewalks, paths or slower streets. Unacceptable. Bike organizations should put their prejudices aside and work for EPAMD laws that give Segways ALL the rights and responsibilities that cyclists enjoy. Then we can work together to make the streets safer for everyone. All forms of slower moving, environmentally sound transportation will benefit.

JohnM
Anything worth doing for 2 hours is 10 times more worthwhile if done for 20 hours.
RUSA #235


Murray Fisher

[pdantic]

Hey, everyone!

The Senate Transportation Subcommittee meeting went well this morning. There were a lot of pro-EPAMD speakers and only three anti-EPAMD types. One, of course, was from Bicycle Colorado...

Senator Hanna (co-sponsor of the bill) came cruising into the conference room on an HT. That's always a very good sign!

I had an opportunity to put in my 2 cents worth. Matt gave good testimony but was chastised by Senator Hagedorn (who, by the way, is FOR the bill!) for using some rather cheesy statistics (number of people injured on or by Segways = zero; Sen. Hagedorn noted that there are many more bike riders that Segway riders and that a better measure would be incidents divided by number of users...of course, that would still be ZERO for Segs).

One gentleman who commutes every day on his HT gave a short presentation; he brought up some great points, mentioned that he sold his car, etc... It was very heart-felt and I think the subcommittee loved hearing him speak. Another speaker was from a group (don't remember which one) that is a disabled advocacy group - they have a program where they're giving Segs to disabled vets. I LOVED hearing his testimony, since the only other time I've heard a disabled person talk about the Segway, she was sure that they were going to "run down people in wheelchairs" (she must be from San Francisco!).

The subcommittee doesn't actually vote on whether to send this to the combined legislature until next Tuesday, but I'm confident that it may at least make it out of committee this year. If it does make it out of committee, yours truly is going to send an email to each and every Colorado state representative and senator.



Steve
The Joy of Segs: http://www.joyofsegs.com

[BruceWright]

Did Matt really say that Zero people have been injured by Segway riders?

Every thing out there has more than zero accidents.

The organization that you mentioned was there was DRAFT. Disabled Rights Advocates for Technology.

http://www.draft.cc/

They are an awesome organization.




-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[BruceWright]

In case people don't understand me, the truth is Segways are the safest thing out there.

I love this document:

http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/pubs/04104/


That gives people like Bicycle Colorado something to really chew on, when it talks about Segways being quite a bit easier on other members of a shared space than many things, like recumbent bikes.

Safety is vitally important. Which is why a Segway should be allowed places where it's appropriately safe. Not based on motors/non motors. But based on actual user characteristics.

Segways, IMO are safer than bikes. Safer for the rider, and safer for everyone around the rider.



-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[wwhopper]

The diabaled gentleman you spoke of is Jerry Kerr, head of DRAFT - a sister organization to all of our Segway groups. DRAFT, under Jerry's leadership has done some amazing things. Go to their website www.DRAFT.cc

pdantic, I would advise you to get on the bicycle and pedestrian advisory council for your county, city, and or state. They need someone who is a motorized user of trails for some FHWA funding they get. I am now waiting for my appointment as the Motorized User, to the DC Trails Committee.

The Bike lobby is very big, and very powerful, we just did a day at the Maryland Senate House yesterday, where we had a SEG America display, and the local dealer joined me. It was great fun, while I delt with the rabid bikers who were anti Segway, the dealer, was busy talking to and demoing to the decision makers, who all had the big Segway Smile on their faces... Also he met with a number of regional and state government officials, who want to buy HT's for their Police and Paramedic forces.

The bike lobby is bad news to seggers, and we have to play them at their own game.... So go out there and support gliding in your own town, city, county, state etc....

Will W Hopper
DCSEG Member
SEG America
The Premier Gliding Organization!

Rooting for the BAY AREA SEG TEAM at the World Cup of Segway Polo in New Zealand later this month.

GO Silcon Valley Aftershocks - Now just to pick my favorite player - will it be... Alex - he is quick, Woz, he has his game on, George, That glider knows how to shoot a goal - or someone else!

[BruceWright]

What I gather from friends I've talked to is that Matt didn't in fact say that there were no injuries EVER, but within a certain sample during a certain amount of time for a statistical study done by a safety group (I think the CPSC).

So it sounds like Matt was being honest and informed in his comments. More informed than I am in this situation. There's a lot of great information out there about the amazing safety record of Segways.

I wish we had an easy public repository of all that information.


-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[fredkap]

What I heard is that Matt was requested as to what unbiased statistics the Consumer Safety Agency had regarding Segways. He stated that there were 15,000 reported bicycle injuries and during the same period zero REPORTED Segway injuries. Jerry Kerr stated that he had no knowledge of any substantive injury to any bystander (pedestrian) from the use of a Segway.
Fred

[wwhopper]

We should all have a copy of "Characteristics of Emerging Road Users and Their Safety" FHWA Pulbication NO FHWA-HRT-04-103 - it is avaialable for free from the FHWA website, links are on SEGAmerica' website, and the Red Key.

This book shows Segways in a great light, shows they are better then some bikes and other devices on the road.

Planners, Department of Transportation people, and legislators look to these government reports for their data. That is why DC SEG members spend so much time participating in reserach studies for the Segway.

I gave a good number of copies of this book out in Annapolis MD at the Senate House yesterday.

Will W Hopper
DCSEG Member
SEG America
The Premier Gliding Organization!

Rooting for the BAY AREA SEG TEAM at the World Cup of Segway Polo in New Zealand later this month.

GO Silcon Valley Aftershocks - Now just to pick my favorite player - will it be... Alex - he is quick, Woz, he has his game on, George, That glider knows how to shoot a goal - or someone else!

[powderhound]

you may not know but the Colorado Bill was defeated. It didn't help that the sponsor of the bill was caught up in a scandal outside of anything having to do segway stuff. here's a brief blurb in the Denver Post. I still haven't been approached by any Denver police as I ride by them so it seems they are looking the other way so long as we are polite commuters!

Segway bill segues to defeat

Sen. Deanna Hanna, D-Lakewood, lost her attempt to allow "personal assistive mobility devices," or Segways, to be used on sidewalks, bike paths and roads with a 35-mph or lower speed limit. The Senate - on an unrecorded vote - overwhelmingly rejected SB 168. Several senators raised concerns that the bill would be unsafe to pedestrians. "I rode one," said Sen. Nancy Spence, R-Centennial. "It scared me to death. It's not a safe thing to ride." Hanna replied: "I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it as much as I did. I just jumped on and started riding."