Why don't REALLY send a Segway on the Moon?

[spacebatman]

Months ago I've made an image of a "Segway on the Moon" that is available on my website (with three other images of Segway) here www.gaetanomarano.it/segway/segway.html

In last months I've published some pages about Space like...

The CREWLESS Space Shuttle www.gaetanomarano.it/spaceShuttle/spaceshuttle.html

And VME - Vision for Moonrovers' Exploration www.gaetanomarano.it/moonrovers/moonrovers.html

Since to-day's rockets launch prices are affordable for little-mid companies, I propose a "Moonrovers' Prize Competition" www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

I think that Segway, with its GREAT experience of robotics, may be one of Moonrovers' Race Competitors or one of its Sponsors!

Build a "moonrover" is NOT so complex as may appear, it only need to be made for lunar reduced gravity and lunar temperatures using military-grade parts (that costs more than commercial parts but NOT so much).

Other Competitors or Sponsors may be the same of Segway (Apple, Microsoft, Amazon) or other companies like Ford, Coca Cola, Dell, etc.

I think that a "privates' moon-race" may be VERY interesting and exciting!

[n1das]

One thing that would have to be changed to make a moon-roving segway possible is the tires/wheels. The air-filled tires would literally explode in the vacuum of space.

Tweels may be perfect for this application!


David Sterrett, N1DAS
Nashua, NH
Midnight Blue i170

[citivolus]

Don't forget that those green circuit boards have a nasty tendancy to outgas to the point of nonexistance in the vacuum of space.

--
swiftly flying

[W9GFO]

quote:Originally posted by n1das

One thing that would have to be changed to make a moon-roving segway possible is the tires/wheels. The air-filled tires would literally explode in the vacuum of space.

Tweels may be perfect for this application!


David Sterrett, N1DAS
Nashua, NH
Midnight Blue i170

Sorry, I just can't help it...

The difference in pressure from the Earth (sea level) to the Moon is about 14.7 psi. So that much more force would be pushing out on the tires while on the moon - since it isn't countered by any atmospheric pressure. However, in the extreme cold of space the tires' air pressure would be significantly reduced.

18 psi in the tire on earth would be equal to 32.7 psi on the Moon - before taking into account the colder temperature.

I wonder how those silicone tires and plastic wheels would hold up in the coldness of space...

Yeah, I think something like tweels would be better.

Rich H

The Un-Official Segway Battery FAQ
http://www.spinfoot.com/SegwayBatteryFAQ.html

[amturnip]

Let us also not neglect that the moon is made of cheese. You will probably want slightly salty tires with a tread textured like crackers. Be that as it may, there is evidence that the Segway company has already begun working toward the space-travel market. For example, the 25.0 luggage bag is truly ideal for low-gravity environments - where it incurs less wheel drag.

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by n1das

One thing that would have to be changed to make a moon-roving segway possible is the tires/wheels. The air-filled tires would literally explode in the vacuum of space.
Tweels may be perfect for this application!


due to vacuum and high (day) - low (night) moon temperature, the MoonSegway must have metallic wheels (like Apollo rovers) with some "nails" to have a good "grip" on moon surface

also, the better design fo a MoonSegway, may be the four wheel Centaur

I think that the most interesting part of Segway's technology (very good for moonrovers!) is its gyroscope based self-balancing, because it may give to moonrovers the ability to run in an unknown surface and RESUME from difficult situation thanks to its ability to move with four or only two wheels

Segway may design a moonrover able to meet the unknown lunar surface!

[KSagal]

Although the Cheese factor is undeniable, I always thought of it as having a surface more like grated Parmasian. Instead of cracker textured tires, I would think cheese grater textured tires may do a better job.

I'm fairly sure that the seg will work fine. I would be more conserned with the extra bling that NASA would undoubtedly ask Jonathan and I to add to the MT (Moon Transporter)

Can anyone tell me how blinking multicolored chinese LEDs that are designed for the automotive aftermarket work in the vaccuum of space?



Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by KSagal

...that NASA would undoubtedly ask Jonathan and I to add to the MT (Moon Transporter)...

if Segway's technology will works well with moonrovers, it may be used for single-astronaut-seat Segways or Centaurs

weight is very important in space travels and the weight of four moon-Centaurs may be less than of the two "LunarSuv" planned for each mission

[spacebatman]

A simple rover may have difficulties to resume a situation like in fig.1, and may REMAIN on the lunar crater border, while, a Centaur-based moonrover, can simply rise two of its wheels, fig.2, and turn back to continue moon exploration.

[img.nr]http://www.gaetanomarano.it/roverexample.jpg[/img.nr]

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by spacebatman

A simple rover may have difficulties to resume a situation like in fig.1, and may REMAIN on the lunar crater border, while, a Centaur-based moonrover, can simply rise two of its wheels, fig.2, and turn back to continue moon exploration.
One can always imagine obstacles that any one particular rover design might not be able to handle. The easiest, most cost effective solution: Know the capabilities of you vehicle and don't attempt obstacles you can't handle. Drive around it.
Given the success of the two Mars rovers, I'd say this is a non-problem.

JohnM
Anything worth doing for 2 hours is 10 times more worthwhile if done for 20 hours.
RUSA #235

[spacebatman]

"...One can always imagine obstacles that any one particular rover design might not be able to handle..."

All mars rovers' movements must be "planned" for days due to earth-mars radio delay.

Moonrovers, thanks to "one-second" only radio-delay, can be driven in real-time.

This is a GIANT advantage (for space/time moon exploration) of moonrovers vs. mars rovers but may increase the problems that a rovers may have during moon travel.

A Segway-based design may help if some unexpected problems will happen.


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[spacebatman]

Segway technology is very interesting to build a moonrover but there are two other aspects of my idea that may be VERY GOOD for Segway company and Segway communities:

1. Segway can't build and launch 200+ moonrovers for a complete moon exploration (as explained in the "Vision for Moonrovers' Exploration" on my website), but, if Segway's moonrovers' technology will works well, Segway can sell it to other companies and labs that can simply add their own instruments to a "base-rover" to meet their planned exploration's targets!

2. Thanks to Segway's moonrovers, Segway technology and Segway products may become MUCH MORE known and popular than now, so, Segway LLC will sell MUCH MORE Segways and, thanks to scale-economy, its unit price will finally FALL VERY MUCH to become affordable for a larger number of users!

I hope that at Segway LLC some will read this post and follow my suggestion!



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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[KSagal]

Any way you slice it, and especially for all those spandex wearing bicycle enthusiasts that are so frequently bashing segs, I don't know what the rover will look like but I feel it will surely not be a bicycle! (Unless, of course, someone comes up with a spandex spacesuit!)

Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[JohnM]

Rumor has it that the next generation of lunar rovers will be built by Mattel.

JohnM
Anything worth doing for 2 hours is 10 times more worthwhile if done for 20 hours.
RUSA #235

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by JohnM

"...next generation of lunar rovers will be built by Mattel..."


Why not?

A "1st generation" moonrover (travels and 3D images only) may be VERY SIMPLE and made with:

- movable 3D camera with 8 Mpixels' "eyes"
- litium batteries
- solar panels
- four/six metallic wheels
- four/six stepper motors
- little parabolic antenna
- digital radio TX/RX
- control computer
- gyroscopic system (for Segway version)

all running controls and image memory may be on earth and don't need to be on the rover, so, its weight may be only around 200 lbs.!

of course, all rovers' parts may be "military-grade" (made for very high and low temperatures and better MTBF), but the moonrovers' unit cost may be less than $500,000 each!

the real high cost is the rocket to launch it that, to-day, starts from $15 million of a 1000 lbs. payload Pegasus to $20-30 million of 2-3 tons payload launchers

that price are TOO MUCH for me (and probably for you) but NOT for THOUSANDS little-mid companies around the world!

BIG COMPANIES SPEND MUCH MORE THAN $20 BILLION PER WEEK ONLY FOR ADVERTISING!


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[spacebatman]

In my moonprize's webpage I've added an image of a "private moonrover" with a possible (well known) Sponsor www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

Of course, since the cost of a moonrover will be low and its prestige very high, many big and mid Companies may send on the moon their own rovers with their own Logos and Colors... Coca Cola, Pepsi, McDonald's, Microsoft, Virgin, Segway, Oracle, Lufthansa, BMW, etc.

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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[inventor]

before we put segway on the moon, we might want to put a few more on EARTH!

....for as long as I can STAND....

[Dragan]

Uhhh.....guys.....I think he's serious........wow.
Wayne
(who definetly doesn't have THAT much time on his hands)

Segway of Alberta - Calgary
www.mysegway.ca

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by inventor

"...before we put segway on the moon, we might want to put a few more on EARTH..."

if Segway LLC spends a few millions to develop a Segway-derived moonrover and launch it on the moon with a ready available rocket, it will give a global popularity to Segway that may help to sell much more units than now (and fall its price)


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by Dragan

"...I think he's serious..."


I'm very serious about moonrovers, in these days I'm sending emails to universities, magazines and companies around the world to search "developers", "competitors" and "sponsors" for the prize

also, in next weeks, I will design the moonrovers' prize RULES (1.0) and (probably in january 2006) I will propose (and publish on my website) some ideas about a possible moonrover design and mission steps

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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[Tanner]

I think anyone would'd by happy enough just to get anything into space. Let alone land a moonrover on the Moon.

-Tanner

----------------
Tanner S.

[dgbint]

Sounds so simple !

When you build stuff that has to be reliable, it costs a whole lot more.

Aircraft grade stuff costs many times normal consumer grade prices.
The consequences of gear not working are so dramatic.

Well space grade stuff it even more so !
How much would it cost to send a service technician to the moon ??

I guess that the real numbers would be prohibitive.
My 2c worth anyway.

Michael

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by dgbint

Sounds so simple !

When you build stuff that has to be reliable, it costs a whole lot more.

Aircraft grade stuff costs many times normal consumer grade prices.
The consequences of gear not working are so dramatic.

Well space grade stuff it even more so !
How much would it cost to send a service technician to the moon ??

I guess that the real numbers would be prohibitive.
My 2c worth anyway.

Michael



many universities and little companies ALREADY build and launch micro-satellites at very low cost

the most important part of each mission will be the earth to orbit flight, but it is "included in the price" of all rockets... you give the "box" and they will launch it to the orbit you want

the launch from earth orbit to moon may be easy with the same low cost engines and technology used with hundreds geostationary comm satellites

the lunar landing will need some research but an airbag-like landing may be simple and low cost

about moon repair... the strategy of my idea of VME (see its page on my website) is completely different from past rovers' strategy

NOT a few, very high priced, "perfect" rovers, but, HUNDREDS reliable and very low cost rovers!

if we send four $100 million each "perfect" rovers, they MUST work!

but, if rovers will cost $500,000 each, we can send dozens rovers with each rocket, so, if 30% of them will fail, the 70% that work well may explore the entire moon surface

about moonrovers' prize competition... I think that the "first prize competition" may need only a "safe moon landing and a few days of 3D images", we can't want too much from first missions

next, when we will have more experience, more complex competitions can be made


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[sombody]

The original moonrover tires were spun or woven out of stainless steel piano wire . The tweel technology is awsome

[inventor]

if you are really trying to put a segway on the moon, then it better be a XT... love them XT's

....for as long as I can STAND....

[Brooster]

As I understand it, there's already a fairly well-established relationship between DEKA/Segway and NASA. I'm sure NASA is well aware of Segway's products and capabilities ... those both released to the public and yet to be revealed. If there's a way that Segway technology could be used in future moon missions, I'm sure that's already been considered.

Brooster

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by Brooster

...relationship between DEKA/Segway and NASA...


then... my idea can really born!

however, I hope that Segway will offer its technology and experience also to universities and private companies to send HUNDREDS exploration rovers on the moon, not only half dozen!


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by Brooster

...DEKA/Segway and NASA...

if you have any further info or links about Segway/NASA research, please post them here, thank you


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[Brooster]

Here's one.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/robonaut_ugrades_040823.html

Brooster

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by Brooster

...Here's one...

it's an interesting project but too complex since implies virtual reality, advanced robotics, human hands replication, etc.

only big companies and space agencies like NASA may have the funds and experience to develop and use things like it

I hope that Segway will develop and sell a simple Segway-based technology devoted only to easy and safe moving on the unknown moon surface to avoid obstacles and solve traveling problems, so, little companies and universities may use that technology as a reliable base for simple and complex moonrovers


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[Brooster]

Just some anecdotal evidence of a "relationship" between DEKA and NASA. On the first page of this old (2000) WIRED article, you'll see who one of Dean's houseguests was ... [now former] NASA Administrator Dan Goldin. NASA's former top man, and longest-serving administrator. Good article if you've not seen it.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.09/kamen.html



Brooster

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by Brooster

"relationship" between DEKA and NASA

thank you for the link
about Segway/NASA... apparently the only cooperation is the the NASA's "humanoid" with Segway wheels... no other projects known

but I found interesting the "Segway Mobility Platform" www.segway.com/segway/rmp/

unfortunately it is only for earth use

I hope that Segway will design a moon version that space researchers can buy and use at a reasonable price


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[Brooster]

You're welcome. I just hope that Segway does whatever it needs to do to stay in business here on Earth.

Brooster

[Dragan]

I'm all for advancement of technology, and maybe (hopefully) I'm missing something in this whole concept, but it strikes me that what you're talking about here is a potential global investment of many billions of dollars, including an R&D investment on Segway's part of, at the very least, many millions of dollars on little more than the pure speculation that other firms will;
1.- be interested enough to commit many millions of their own dollars in
sponsorship funds, or
2.- dedicate huge resources to develop a program to launch a lunar mission
3.- follow through with said lunar mission, deal with the huge logistics issues,
the politics (equally huge), the press, both positive and negative and actually
go ahead and send a mission up...to test what, exactly? That it can be done?

it would be little more than repeating something that has already been done, decades ago, and the folks that did it have not seen sufficient reasons since to repeat the exercise. I'm certianly not a rocket scientist and wouldn't want to speculate as to the reasons they haven't, but they are (rocket scientists, that is) and I'm pretty sure it has a lot to do with both money and bang for their buck.

What you're talking about is a staggering investment of time, energy, money and brainpower effectively re-inventing the wheel, and one that already made a good many revolutions at that. In a perfect world, what a cool idea. Unfortunately, our world is far from perfect, and I don't think I'll be donating much of my own money to the project, for much the same reasons that NASA hasn't. Maybe we'd be better served if we spent even a wee small bit of that money, energy, time and thought on first making some realistic gains in the way we treat the place we live (good old Mother Earth), than engaging in a competition to see whole can put together the biggest glide in space. Once we've dealt with some of the more immediate issues we have here on our home planet, what the heck, let's go after making a whole ton of XT tracks on the Moon, or Mars for that matter.

I think I'd kind of prefer to see Segway spend that money improving the terrestial versions that we're all so passionate about, improving the acceptance and use of Segways and other energy efficient, environmentally friendly tools. Maybe, if they did something like that first, there may come a day where the first Lunar Segfest becomes a reality.

just my 2 cents Canadian (1.6 cents American...the Canuck buck's getting stronger!)
Wayne

Segway of Alberta - Calgary
www.mysegway.ca

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by Brooster

You're welcome. I just hope that Segway does whatever it needs to do to stay in business here on Earth.

Brooster



I agree, but Segway can share the research cost on 100+ units selling final devices at $300,000 each, so it may be very profitable

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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by Dragan

I'm all for advancement of technology, and maybe (hopefully) I'm missing something in this whole concept, but it strikes me that what you're talking about here is a potential global investment of many billions of dollars, including an R&D investment on Segway's part of, at the very least, many millions of dollars on little more than the pure speculation that other firms will


spend money for space or for earth is an old dispute that will exist forever

I think that spend money for space is NOT a waste, you can agree that space has many usefull applications (weather sat, comm, etc.) but we can't have only good things, final applications is also a result of many mistakes

about moonrovers... they don't need BILLIONS... NASA has a plan to send a few rovers in 2010-2015 to search land sites for new manned missions... well... the total NASA budget for that plan will be around $400 million!

consider that NASA has high prices, high specs, heavy vehicles, army of scientists and engineers to pay, infrastructures, expensive rockets, etc.

a private (single and very litte) moonrover may need a few millions to develop, a few (companies or universities) engineers and a $20 million "commercial" rocket to launch (many countries and space companies sell them including launch support)

about the "unperfect world"... I think that a private moon race may happen JUST because we are in an unperfect world where 90% of money is
not spend for research but for useless things and for "image", prestige, games, advertising, etc. (the money to launch a rover on the moon may be LESS than ONE superbowl TV commercial...)

with my prize I want to demonstrate that launch a rover on the moon may be easy also for privates and at low cost, but the effort will be NOT only for advertising and prestige, in fact, one of the rules will be that winners must share and give FREE rovers' knowlendge, moon images and moon exploration time to the world's scientific community

the final purpose of the prize is NOT only "advertising" and "prestige" but... MORE space, MORE science, MORE exploration, MORE konwlendge

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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[KSagal]

I agree on some level with both Dragan and SpaceBatMan.

I have always been mystified with the fanatic support for some things on earth (Sports figures earning millions of dollars) and not enough support for other things (Teachers and firemen and policemen not getting nearly a comparable wage).

Regardless of my confusion, it still is the reality. I believe that space exploration has several values. There is value in learning anything new. There is value in learning how to do things differently (In vaccuum, less gravity, etc) and then applying that back home. There is value in getting technologists all fired up creating new technologies, many of the near misses being very useful as well.

To only work for today's problems is short sighted. It is like spending all your effort to build a fire and gather wood to feed it, and not building a good shelter. You have to prepare for the future as well as fix the present, and new technologies and creative attitudes do help the future.

You also must not loose sight of the current issues. It also makes no sense to spend all your efforts building a shelter for next year, and ignore the fire today, if you get so cold that you get sick and die...

I often use an old saying that I think applies here. Anyone who truely wants to beat a forest fire needs to have as many people cutting down trees as those he has tossing buckets of water.

That balance is a difficult one to maintain, but well worth the effort...

Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by KSagal

...I agree on some level with both Dragan and SpaceBatMan...

unfortunately, many peoples (expecially non-tech peoples) in the world have difficulties to see the "connection" between space exploration and any day life... but, without the incredible speed up of space investments in electronics and computers (expecially the Apollo projects) we may have to-day only some heavy "three-chip", vacuum tube 8-digit display desktop, four operatins, calsulators... no Pentiums, no Notebooks, no LCD display, no MP3, no SatTV, no Pacemakers, no internet, no DVD... an no Segway...


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[KSagal]

Now, making a working segway, with interactive balance technology, using mechanical relays, weights, pulleys, cables and pendulums... That would be an invention...

Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[Dragan]

Don't misunderstand what I was getting at spacebatman...first of all, I am decidedly a Techie...most Segway dealers actually do fall into that category. Nor am I a fool; I fully understand and appreciate the benefits we have gained from space exploration, and will continue to gain from it. That said, the computer, LCD's, pacemakers, MP3, etc. of the world don't owe their entire existance to the space program, nor does the Segway, I assure you.

My point was more based in the legitimacy of the proposal, and what significant steps forward would be potentially gained by entering into obstensibly a contest to put a quantity of rovers on the moon. Would there be some technical benefits, perhaps breakthroughs? Maybe...I don't know, and I stated that. I deferred to the experts, who do know far better than you or I and they are not intent of pursueing the idea with the vigor they once did. Some of that is certainly political will or lack thereof. Some of it truly comes down to bang for the buck.

Karl's absolutely right, there is a point of balance, and it's difficult to maintain it. What I was suggesting is that tipping the balance point even by the paltry sum of 400 million is still tipping the balance. Is it worth it? At this point in history, my sense it that it probably isn't high enough on the list of global priorities to invest that kind of resource. But that's just my opinion, and opinions are like belly-buttons; everyone has one.

The bottom line always comes down to a finite resource; money. The trick we all face is how best to utilize that money to better our lives, our environment and our future. Continuing with the exploration of space is something that I believe in just as strongly as you do, believe it or not. I think where we don't share the same opinion is where to spend some of that finite resource, and how.
Wayne

Segway of Alberta - Calgary
www.mysegway.ca

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by Dragan

...point was more based in the legitimacy of the proposal...


my proposal is for "PRIVATE" that, usually, spend their money as they want and like, without think if how they spend money is good for the rest of the world or not... big yachts, big mansions, etc. etc. etc.

a private company can launch a low cost moonrover for the price of a few TV commercials... but the prestige and media coverage of a moonrover launch is 1000 times better!!!

but the race is NOT only a "moon game" or a "moon reality show"... the low cost technology may be used for many scientific moonrovers launched from privates, universities and space agencies around the world to accomplish a complete exploration of the moon as explained in my "VME" webpage www.gaetanomarano.it/moonrovers/moonrovers.html so, it absolutely will be not a waste of money



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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[terryp]

quote:Originally posted by spacebatman

quote:Originally posted by dgbint

Sounds so simple !

When you build stuff that has to be reliable, it costs a whole lot more.

Aircraft grade stuff costs many times normal consumer grade prices.
The consequences of gear not working are so dramatic.

Well space grade stuff it even more so !
How much would it cost to send a service technician to the moon ??

I guess that the real numbers would be prohibitive.
My 2c worth anyway.

Michael



many universities and little companies ALREADY build and launch micro-satellites at very low cost

the most important part of each mission will be the earth to orbit flight, but it is "included in the price" of all rockets... you give the "box" and they will launch it to the orbit you want

the launch from earth orbit to moon may be easy with the same low cost engines and technology used with hundreds geostationary comm satellites

the lunar landing will need some research but an airbag-like landing may be simple and low cost

about moon repair... the strategy of my idea of VME (see its page on my website) is completely different from past rovers' strategy

NOT a few, very high priced, "perfect" rovers, but, HUNDREDS reliable and very low cost rovers!

if we send four $100 million each "perfect" rovers, they MUST work!

but, if rovers will cost $500,000 each, we can send dozens rovers with each rocket, so, if 30% of them will fail, the 70% that work well may explore the entire moon surface

about moonrovers' prize competition... I think that the "first prize competition" may need only a "safe moon landing and a few days of 3D images", we can't want too much from first missions

next, when we will have more experience, more complex competitions can be made


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

I don't understand your logic of sending 'hundreds' of under-engineered rovers, accepting that many will fail, but some will survive. (Kinda like sending a dozen Qs vs. one HT.) That's terribly wasteful, both in terms of the cost to transport many times the weight, and in the amount of junk left behind. Why not engineer it right the first time and send one?

Segway - What's holding you up?

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by terryp

I don't understand your logic of sending 'hundreds' of under-engineered rovers, accepting that many will fail, but some will survive. (Kinda like sending a dozen Qs vs. one HT.) That's terribly wasteful, both in terms of the cost to transport many times the weight, and in the amount of junk left behind. Why not engineer it right the first time and send one?
Segway - What's holding you up?


because the difference of price of a "perfect" rover vs. a "good" rovers is not "half", but "1/100th"

the total cost of NASA mars rovers Spirit and Opportunity (all inclusive) was $800 million

the NASA plan for moonrovers will cost $400 million with probably only four rovers launched

if you build moonrovers with military-grade parts instead of NASA standards, they may cost less than 1,000,000 each but you must accept that part of them will fails or work for less time than planned

moon is too big to explore with four rovers, it need hundreds rovers (with different "generations") to explore

100 "perfect" rovers at $100 million each = $10 billion

140 "good" rovers at $1 million each = $140 million

despite 30% of them will fail, the "medium" cost of each "good" rover will remain LOW... less than $1.4 million each

the cost of the launch for each "perfect" or "good" rovers is the same (around $30 million up)

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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[Dragan]

I surrender! Break a leg! Wave when you get there!
Wayne

Segway of Alberta - Calgary
www.mysegway.ca

[KSagal]

Using your numbers, and a cost of $30 mil for each launch, if you need 140 good rovers to do the job of 100 better rovers, wouldn't you have to add the cost of the extra launches and system support for each of the failed or expected to fail rover to the end cost?

I could buy 5 or 10 q's for the cost of my 'E' but they will never be able to do what my seg does. I may not fall each time I ride the 'q', but I will need to be prepared to each time. I would rather have one seg than 10 'q's


Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by KSagal

...Using your numbers, and a cost of $30 mil for each launch...


100 working rovers on 140 launched is only a pessimistic evaluation

99% of good designed moonrovers (with moon temperature specs) may works well like "perfect" rovers

the two mars rovers was expected to work a few months but they are still alive!

1st generation (image & travel only) moonrovers will be very little and light so can be launched with little and (relatively) low cost rocktets like Pegasus (1000 lbs. payload at 13.5 million per launch)

launch 100+ moonrovers may need only a dozen of mid-rockets with 10-20 rovers per launch

consider that 100 "perfect" NASA moonrovers need over $10 billion, so, all costs of private rovers will be cheaper


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[KSagal]

I find it interesting that you can give very specific and detailed numbers and details on devices that have yet to be specified, designed nor built.

Even Nostradomis was not that good.

Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[spacebatman]

"...that have yet to be specified, designed nor built..."

we are only in the early days of this project... it need much time and work


"...Even Nostradomis was not that good..."

but send rovers on the moon is not a disaster prediction


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[spacebatman]

about costs evaluation... my first job was in electronics... after (and to-day) computers... so, I've some knowlendge about components, costs, etc.

about rocket launch... their prices are well known, see www.ksc.nasa.gov/facts/faq13.html

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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[spacebatman]

- - - moonrover cost and minimum prize amount - - -

in these days I've evaluated the (possible) cost of a simple moonrover launch and the minimum amount needed for the 1st race price (moon travel & 3D images)

a simple 200-300 lbs. moonrovers may cost:

- $13.5 million for a Pegaus launch
- $0.5 million for a simple moonrover
- $5 million for the trans lunar injection engine and tanks (and moon braking)
- $1 million for the marsrovers-like moon landing airbags

then, a $20 million budget may be sufficient

but moonrovers' race competitors DON'T NEED to invest all this money

the only need to build the rover and test them in labs to verify if rovers may land and work on the moon (search for launch will be only the second-step)

the X-prize competition (for sub-orbital flight) was only $10 million but the winner of the prize have spent $30 million to build the SpaceShipOne

then, $10 million may be sufficient for the 1st moonrovers' prize competition

but I hope to find sufficient sponsors to reach a $20+ million prize, so, the winner will have (both) a great prestige and a TOTAL REFUND of the money spent to design and launch the rover!


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[dgbint]

Hi

I am just a simple engineer.
Can you tell me about the Pegasus launch, please

Is it a launch in to orbit, or a launch and transit to Moon ?
Even if it's to lunar orbit, how would you land them ?
I guess there is a bit of difference.

Michael

[spacebatman]

quote:Originally posted by dgbint

Hi

I am just a simple engineer.
Can you tell me about the Pegasus launch, please

Is it a launch in to orbit, or a launch and transit to Moon ?
Even if it's to lunar orbit, how would you land them ?
I guess there is a bit of difference.

Michael



Pegasus is interesting for its low cost but also because it don't need a launch pad

it's lauched at around 40,000 feet with a modified jet and is able to put a 1000 lbs. payload in low earth orbit

half of this weight must be used for the trans lunar injection booster, the remain weight will be used for the little (200 lbs. max) moonrover and its lunar braking engine and airbags landing system

a direct earth to moon launch, with LEM-style landing, is more efficient but too complex for first launches


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html

[spacebatman]

I post here a link if you want to know something more about Pegasus:

http://spaceflightnow.com/pegasus/hessi/020203pegasus.html


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Moonrovers' Prize Competition www.gaetanomarano.it/moonprize/moonprize.html